#1 Posted by Zoom (14668 posts) - - Show Bio

Dawn Granger (the 2nd Dove) was created because the lords of chaos and order decided that the original Hawk and Dove experiment had failed.  It was determined that the sibling's fought too much to be effective and that the only way to make Hawk and Dove work was to make the pair an unrelated male and female and have them eventually fall in love (which Hank and Dawn didn't do) and create some being of purity between the two.  So the lords took away Don Hall's powers and he was unable to get out of the way of a shadow demon and died during the Crisis on Infinite Earths.  At the same time they gave powers to Dawn Granger and she became the new Dove, eventually teaming up with Hank until he was transformed into the evil Monarch (a rant for another time).

With me so far?  Fast forward ten years.  Hank Hall is dead and its time to introduce a brand new Hawk!  So who gets chosen to take up the mantle?  Dawn Granger's bitchy sister Holly, who she fights with all the time.  Anybody else see the problem here?  The entire reason the first Dove was killed was because a sibling team cannot work as Hawk and Dove.  It doesn't help that at this time, the lords of chaos and order who gave Hawk and Dove their powers are already dead.  Lovely.

But that's not all.  Holly is Dawn's sister who grew up in Great Britain.  She keeps making references to "dad's house" or "did dad ever blah blah blah" and that Dawn choose to live in the wrong place growning up. Cyborg mentions that the Granger parents live in Georgetown and London.  So it seems Dawn grew up with her dad in DC and Holly grew up with her mom in London until the long lost sisters were reunited.  Aside from sounding like the plotline of a bad Mary Kate and Ashley movie, what's wrong with this?  Dawn's parents were happily married and together all through Hawk and Dove volume 3.

So lets recap.  Holly being Hawk doesn't make sense.  Anybody but Hank Hall being Hawk doesn't make sense.  Holly even existing doesn't make sense.

Thank you Geoff Johns and Gail Simone for recreating Hawk and Dove while pissing all over the entire Hawk and Dove mythos.

/rant

#2 Posted by G-w-D (547 posts) - - Show Bio

Just to piss you off somemore aparently this new Hawk is a slut who dresses up as Supergirl in powerboy's sick erotic fantasy
#3 Posted by RaptorFratBoy (550 posts) - - Show Bio
@G-w-D said:
" Just to piss you off somemore aparently this new Hawk is a slut who dresses up as Supergirl in powerboy's sick erotic fantasy "
Well...it got ME interested. Good choice there, Kon!
#4 Posted by burr787 (2504 posts) - - Show Bio

Well if it means anything, Holly's dead now. :P

#5 Posted by Zoom (14668 posts) - - Show Bio

Krul had obviously read Hawk and Dove.  He had Dove explain her powers and actually use them for the first time since her "death" and he had Hawk shouting his catchphrase. 
 
I wouldn't be surprised if Krul killed her off because her existance was a plothole.

#6 Posted by COBRAMORPH (1565 posts) - - Show Bio
@G-w-D said:
" Just to piss you off somemore aparently this new Hawk is a slut who dresses up as Supergirl in powerboy's sick erotic fantasy "
How does that make Hawk2 a slut? I thought everyone felt that Supergirl was the slut.
#7 Posted by Zoom (14668 posts) - - Show Bio
@COBRAMORPH said:
" @G-w-D said:
" Just to piss you off somemore aparently this new Hawk is a slut who dresses up as Supergirl in powerboy's sick erotic fantasy "
How does that make Hawk2 a slut? I thought everyone felt that Supergirl was the slut. "
She didn't even know his name, which makes her a slut.  Dressing as Supergirl just makes her a kinky slut.
#8 Posted by nyx (114 posts) - - Show Bio

Well, she's dead now.  No worries.

#9 Posted by Zoom (14668 posts) - - Show Bio

And good riddance to bad rubish.
#10 Posted by hawke472 (4 posts) - - Show Bio

i liked her, she was waaay better than hank who has the personality of toenail clippings, and on the supergirl thing, if you had a hot red head willing to dress up in a kinky outfit, would you be complaining?

#11 Posted by AtPhantom (14521 posts) - - Show Bio

Can I add another item to the list?
 
During Infinite Crisis, The Spectre slaughtered all the lords of chaos and order, causing Hawk and Dove to visibly lose their power on panel. To my knowledge, this is never brought up again...

#12 Posted by warlock360 (28057 posts) - - Show Bio

XD

#13 Edited by Zoom (14668 posts) - - Show Bio
@AtPhantom said:

"Can I add another item to the list?  During Infinite Crisis, The Spectre slaughtered all the lords of chaos and order, causing Hawk and Dove to visibly lose their power on panel. To my knowledge, this is never brought up again... "


Geoff Johns choose to ignore this because he didn't feel Hawk and Dove should be depowered. 
 
I choose to ignore this because T'Charr and Terataya were already dead and that didn't cause Hawk or Dawn to be depowered.  In fact, they absorbed the essence of the pair which gave them a power boost. 
 
Most people ignored this because it was in a one shot that nobody read connected to a mini that nobody read.
#14 Posted by dstorres (139 posts) - - Show Bio
@Zoom: @nyx: Until she's revived that is.
#15 Posted by Son_of_Magnus (15258 posts) - - Show Bio

I always liked Holly *hides from wrath of Zoom*

#16 Posted by Zoom (14668 posts) - - Show Bio
@Son_of_Magnus said:
"I always liked Holly *hides from wrath of Zoom* "


 
#17 Posted by The_MVPs (84696 posts) - - Show Bio
@Zoom: You're the reason I started to like Dove in the first place lol
Moderator
#18 Posted by Sinestro2828 (1514 posts) - - Show Bio
@hawke472: 
 
I agree, Holly was a more interesting Hawk than Hank, she had good points and bad points and thats what makes a character interesting and fun to read about.  She and her sister played well off eachother, they had different ways of thinking but still loved and respected one another as sisters and as teammates.  Plus, the Hawk and Dove costumes REALLY look so much better on girl characters than guys, SERIOUSLY.  Hank died as a supervillain too, so I don't get why he wasn't thrown in jail as soon as he was revived like captain boomerang was >_<
#19 Posted by kimeraevet (188 posts) - - Show Bio

I think everyone is missing the point that Holly is useless because her creation was a contradiction and frankly redundant to the Hawk and Dove pairing. Her being there pretty much made Don Hall's death a waste and the subsequent follow up of Hank Hall going crazy and becoming the Monarch stupid. Stupid + Stupid + Redundantly Retarded does not equal good characterization. They need to stop giving weak writers canon books. It screws everything up.

#20 Edited by Zoom (14668 posts) - - Show Bio

I don't agree that Holly was more interesting because her only personality traits (which isn't really her fault because she never did anything save guest appearances) were being slutty and being a drunk.   They never really put the time into making her a likable character...which is fine, because I as previously explained, she was a walking plot hole.

@Sinestro2828

said:

"Plus, the Hawk and Dove costumes REALLY look so much better on girl characters than guys, SERIOUSLY.  Hank"


I do agree with that.
  
@Sinestro2828 said:

"Hank died as a supervillain too, so I don't get why he wasn't thrown in jail as soon as he was revived like captain boomerang was >_< "

Especially since he wasn't a "killed a dude and robbed some banks" bad guy.  He was a "tried to destroy the universe" bad guy. 
 
I'm not sure how he's magically sane and has his old powers back either.
#21 Posted by Emperor Gonzo Noir (19714 posts) - - Show Bio
@Zoom said:
" I don't agree that Holly was more interesting because her only personality traits (which isn't really her fault because she never did anything save guest appearances) were being slutty and being a drunk.   They never really put the time into making her a likable character...which is fine, because I as previously explained, she was a walking plot hole.

@Sinestro2828

said:

"Plus, the Hawk and Dove costumes REALLY look so much better on girl characters than guys, SERIOUSLY.  Hank"


I do agree with that.
  
@Sinestro2828 said:

"Hank died as a supervillain too, so I don't get why he wasn't thrown in jail as soon as he was revived like captain boomerang was >_< "

Especially since he wasn't a "killed a dude and robbed some banks" bad guy.  He was a "tried to destroy the universe" bad guy.  I'm not sure how he's magically sane and has his old powers back either. "
That is one thing that has been seriously bugging me
#22 Posted by COBRAMORPH (1565 posts) - - Show Bio

If they were going to kill off a bird & bring back a dead one, why not have given us the only team-up there hasnt been yet, Holly & Don?

As for Hawk not being in jail, same can be said for Hal.

#23 Posted by cameron83 (7514 posts) - - Show Bio

SHES DEAD?!?!?!

WHO(holly granger),WHAT(she died) WHERE WHEN WHY HOW

#24 Posted by SmashBrawler (5955 posts) - - Show Bio

@cameron83 said:

SHES DEAD?!?!?!

WHO(holly granger),WHAT(she died) WHERE WHEN WHY HOW

Um... Blackest Night. 2009.

Anyway, she's still a better character than Hank Hall. Hell, a random rock is a better character.

#25 Posted by Avenging-X-Bolt (13414 posts) - - Show Bio

@COBRAMORPH said:

If they were going to kill off a bird & bring back a dead one, why not have given us the only team-up there hasnt been yet, Holly & Don?

As for Hawk not being in jail, same can be said for Hal.

Hal went through his penance as the Spectre. he also saved the earth during Final Night so idont any of them are going to arrest him. not mention the fact that he was retconned into being possessed by Parallax.

Online
#26 Posted by charlieboy (7167 posts) - - Show Bio

Holly never made sense. There was never any mention of Dove having a sister before her first appearance.

#27 Edited by bloggerboy (612 posts) - - Show Bio

I don't know about Holly's (pointless) origin but I liked her a lot more than Hank Hall. Though as a character for drama's sake Hank probably works better.