You Lost: An interesting opinion about Marvel's current situation that I found online

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Vivide

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Edited By Vivide

No Country for Comic Fan

http://www.bbc.com/news/entertainment-arts-32379661

Fifteen years ago, Marvel had just escaped bankruptcy. This week, it could overtake Harry Potter as the biggest film franchise in history.

Avengers: Age of Ultron, the 11th movie in the "Marvel Cinematic Universe", hits UK cinemas on Thursday, a week before the US.

If box office predictions are correct, it will quickly become the franchise's third billion-dollar movie, pushing Marvel ahead of the $7.7bn made by the eight Potter films, and far beyond the likes of James Bond, Star Wars, and Lord of The Rings.

It's a huge turnaround for a company which, for decades, played second fiddle to its arch-rival DC Comics.

Captain America, serialised for cinema in the 1940s, was Marvel's last big screen success for 50 years

While DC scored major box office hits with Superman and Batman, Marvel's rich and diverse roster of characters were relegated to Saturday morning serials.

Its sole cinema venture in the 1980s was the risible Howard The Duck - a colossal flop that inexplicably featured an inter-species romance as its sub-plot.

Meanwhile, more obviously cinematic characters like Spider-Man and Captain America languished in development hell.

"Everyone was considering making Marvel movies but the budgets were just too high," says Sean Howe, author of Marvel Comics: The Untold Story.

"Certainly before Terminator 2 there wasn't the technology to do anything in a convincing way."

Howard The Duck, about an alien stranded on earth, was derided as "noisy", "shrill" and "rubbish".

By the time the technology was available to bring Marvel's stable of superheroes to life, the company was on the brink of bankruptcy.

The comic book market crashed in 1993, thanks to a glut of underwhelming titles, and a crisis of confidence amongst collectors. Sales dropped by 70 per cent and Marvel was left heavily in debt. Shares that had been worth $35.75 in 1993 dropped to $2.38 in just three years.

The firm was only saved by a merger with toy company ToyBiz - whose boss, Avi Arad, was appointed President of Marvel's film division after a drawn-out boardroom battle.

Arad looked at the botched attempts to licence Marvel movies in the early 1990s - including a cheap, unreleased production of Fantastic Four - and made a decision: In the future, Marvel would commission its own scripts, hire its own directors and negotiate with stars. Then it would sell the whole package to a major studio, which would shoot and distribute the film.

"When you get into business with a big studio, they are developing a hundred or 500 projects; you get totally lost," Arad told the New York Times in 1996. "That isn't working for us. We're just not going to do it anymore. Period."

Launching in 2000, the X-Men trilogy proved Marvel's characters had a life beyond the comics

The strategy worked. Fox bought the X-Men, Sony took on Spider-Man and New Line made the Blade trilogy.

Only Marvel wasn't sharing in the profits. According to an article on Slate, the company made a mere $25,000 from the first Blade film. And, of the $3 billion that Spider-Man 1 and 2 raked in, Marvel saw only $62 million.

Worse still - as Hollywood jumped on the superhero bandwagon, it rushed out films based on Elektra, the Punisher and Daredevil which proved to be creative and commercial disappointments.

"Things got a little out of our hands," admitted Marvel president Kevin Feige on the company's own website. "That's when we started to think about making the movies internally."

So Avi Arad, along with chief operating officer David Maisel, went to Wall Street to get funding for an independent studio, making films based on second-tier characters the company hadn't already licensed elsewhere, starting with Iron Man.

"The funny thing about the plan is that Marvel used character rights as collateral," says Howe. "So if Iron Man was a disaster, they would give up a whole bunch of characters to the backers.

"That included The Avengers - but the way the deal was worded was that it didn't say who The Avengers were. And if you know comic book history, you know that The Avengers can be any of 50 different characters.

"So that was sneaky. They could have said, 'OK, you have the rights to The Avengers, so here's Jack of Hearts and the Two Gun Kid.'"

Iron Man was the first movie Marvel produced as an independent studio, and the launching point for the Marvel Cinematic Universe

Of course, Iron Man wasn't a disaster - but it was perceived as a massive gamble. A lesser-known superhero, played by "troubled" Robert Downey Jr in his first ever blockbuster lead role, directed by indie filmmaker Jon Favreau, it was far from a guaranteed hit.

But it delighted fans and critics alike, thanks in large part to Downey Jr's irreverent, wise-cracking portrayal of billionaire inventor Tony Stark - a refreshing change from Christian Bale's po-faced Batman.

The breezy tone set the template for the Marvel Cinematic Universe - where character and comedy are given equal emphasis to visual spectacle.

And, with the nerd-pleasing, post-credits appearance of Samuel L Jackson as Nick Fury, Iron Man teased the possibility of the first Avengers film.

"You think you're the only superhero in the world?" Fury asks, as he starts the process of building the superhuman supergroup.

"Mr Stark, you've become part of a bigger universe."

Marvel Cinematic Universe - in numbers
FilmYearBox Office
Iron Man2008$585,174,222
The Incredible Hulk2008$263,427,551
Iron Man 22010$623,933,331
Thor2011$449,326,618
Captain America: The First Avenger2011$370,569,774
Avengers Assemble2012$1,518,594,910
Iron Man 32013$1,215,439,994
Thor: The Dark World2013$644,783,140
Captain America: The Winter Soldier2014$714,766,572
Guardians of the Galaxy2014$774,176,600
Avengers: Age of Ultron2015n/a
Total: $7,160,192,712

That universe now encompasses 11 films, seven TV series and a slate of movies planned until 2020. Each inter-cuts with the other, with a narrative arc plotted by a "brain trust" of Marvel producers, led by 41-year-old Kevin Feige.

"Logistically, it's a miracle that it's occurred," says Downey Jr. "But there was a plan for that miracle, so I hand it to them.

"It's kind of like kicking off a concert but you have no idea they want to turn it into Coachella. I'm humbled by the kind of folks that can have a masterplan like that."

The continuing storyline is what makes the franchise so special - and so successful - says Howe.

"Not just because each movie is an advertisement for all the other movies, but because it gives the narrative a complexity you can usually only get in serial television and comic books."

"And Marvel have got a better head start on marketing their movies than anyone else. If you think about the other movies that'll come out in 2018 and 2019, nobody's even got the ideas for them yet."

"I think they have a unique advantage as a franchise," agrees Joss Whedon, director of the two Avengers films, and a creative consultant on Marvel's overarching plot.

"The Harry Potter movie was one thing, James Bond is one thing. But this can take disparate franchises and make them part of the same spreadsheet.

"All of the characters bring a unique energy - Thor is very different from Cap[tain America], who's very different from Iron Man - and when you put them together what you get is humour and conflict and all the other things you would hope for.

"It has the advantage of not being one thing, but being a little bit of everything."

Particularly after the success of last year's Guardians of the Galaxy - a risky venture, based on a lesser-known comic starring a talking raccoon - it feels like Marvel is unstoppable.

"Right now, it seems like its limitless, which should be disconcerting," says Downey Jr. "It's become bigger than the people or the filmmakers. There is a calling for this type of entertainment right now."

But Howe says Marvel's history holds a warning for the future.

"The narrative snowball of Marvel - the way that everything accumulates - means it gets bigger and more popular but also more unwieldy," he says.

"That happened in the comic books. With all the crossovers, everything became completely uninviting to the new fan. Eventually, Marvel had to hit the reset button and start over again, because you couldn't hold all of it in your head.

"Ironically, that could be the biggest danger to the success of the movies. There are so many storylines that you have to navigate in telling this bigger story, that eventually fatigue sets in - especially with people who are not already 100% on board.

"There's a lot of significant others being dragged to these movies who are going to rebel."

Avengers: Age of Ultron is in cinemas now.

No Caption Provided

-

ONE

If anyone wonders why the comic books are doing weird things. Basically Marvel is a movie studio now and who cares about the comics. That's why you're going to see more weird things like lady Thor, pregnant spiderwoman, every ethnic group gets to be spider man etc etc. Basically before the movies Marvel comics was a bankrupted company with low sales. Comics do NOT make money anymore. they never really did.

So when someone says that comics needs to invite other groups that point is meaningless. There is no secret group of women that will pour money into comic books, at least not any noticeable amount to make comics profitable. Even if you doubled female readership its doubtful that would make comics profitable.

Comic books are there to hold onto copyrights. The cinematic universe now drives everything. There are no untapped demographics.

TWO

I would add that women do drive comic sales. They have driven comic sales away from comic books and towards the movies and TV shows. How many women now watch Arrow or Flash or other such shows.... shirtless men. So there IS an influx of women.. its just instead of them reading comics the female demographic killed comics and drove attention to TV and movies. Do men watch Avengers for Thor or Cap? Nope... women (maybe gays). If these movies were male driven you'd see a whole lot more than Black Widow and they most certainly would not be casting Gal Gadot as WW.

THREE

My point is Marvel isn't going to care about comic revenues. Its a drop in the bucket. Just like video game sales. A flight sim can get maybe 100k buyers. That's like 40 mil if its $40 a game but that's nothing to a company that wants 10 million unit sales.

Also those sales are by month, not lifetime. Any release of a comic will spike that month then fall off quickly. That's NOT continuous sales month to month. You'd be amazed how fast a company burns through money keeping people employed etc. Marvel could be easily burning $6 mil - $10 mil a month just paying people and other activities. I worked for a small game company of less than 50 people that burned over $1 mil a month.

FOUR

I think they are dying. Kind of reminds me of Godzilla. The fan base never really grows but the expectations go up so it becomes unprofitable to make the Toho Godzilla movies.

Yes movies trail off but if you look at the lifetime sales they are pretty huge. Avengers for example will have a spike sale in movie houses then a spike sale on DVD/Bluray. So a lot more revenue. And yes it costs $170 to $200 mil to make one of these.

But the comic book industry isn't really growing. Sales stay flat. There is no secret untapped market and DC and Marvel don't care anyway since the movies are where its at. The comics are merely a hobby at this point.

  • Even if their comics are still doing amazingly, there are still far more people watching those movies. Far more is spent getting the word around for them too. It does make sense why they are trying to "stand out" but I don't agree with it at all

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Blackdog2009

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Marvel Comics sucks balls. their current comic books are sad. I abhore anything that mimics their movies. Their movies are entertaining. Doing well so far. But the repetitious formula will soon be apparent yo the general viewers. I'm glad for the upcoming DC cinematic universe. Also hoping the Valiant universe makes it to the big screen and they keep it real.

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Mark_Stephen

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If this is right it explains why marvel is such a writers paradise right now. The writers are freed from sales responsibility and can do do what ever they want and so far everyone of their moves has paid off. They are throwing caution to the winds and characters under the bus, mangling and distorting the characters and everything that they once stood for, but everyone is buying and even if they weren't it doesn't look like it would matter to the people in charge.

I don't know about the market shrinking or not, I know that I can't afford to keep up with the big two crossover storylines and events and the direction of marvel into the grim/dark heroes as villains turns me off anyway, DC did the same thing. But I am after all a meaningless minority of one. I have no power, I have no meaning or purpose in this context so if I don't buy the books there is no effect and if I do buy the book there is no effect. I liken the current comic era to the 1950's in Hollywood. Back then to pull people away from the tv set big epic movies were produced and they did drag people in. But after a while shock fades, novelty fades. So I believe that at some point all of the events and reboots and crossovers are going to just stop selling. At that point what will marvel and dc do? How often can you re-invent a hero? In a few years when comics are 5.99 for regular issues I know I won't be able to afford them.

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Asgaard

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Old but accurate news...

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Spambot

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Regarding the points you made at the end of the article:

1. Saying comics never really made money is pretty disingenuous. They weren't a huge industry but the were making pretty good money in the 40's and dc's titles continued to sell well as did Marvel's in the 60's. Sales started to drop off in the 70's but then you had a resurgence in the 80's followed by the huge numbers of the early 90's. The industry has always gone in cycles. The MCU is no doubt the primary focus of Marvel now but as with any publicly owned company, they surely do still care about the comics sides of the company and the revenue derived from it. I guarantee you that. The whole corporate mindset is what brought about the explosion in the 90's after Marvel went public and quarterly reports became the bottom line to everything and people were hired from outside the comic industry to try and maximize growth.

2. I completely disagree that people who watch comic movies/shows are primarily motivated by seeing heroes of the opposite sex and that straight men aren't there to see CA or Thor as much or more than Black Widow. I do agree there are many women who enjoy these movies but I myself am there to see the big guns throwing **** around. Not Black Widow playing ninja or trying to hit on Bruce Banner. If what you said was true we wouldn't only have 1 female Avenger starring in the first two movies.

3/4. The comics will stay around because they help with the movies and vice versa. Unless you could show that the comics are losing tons of money for them(which I seriously doubt they are) its good for Marvel to continue putting out comics even if they were. You may not like the comics or titles being put out now but they will stay around. I myself don't buy any new titles but just sort of keep track of what's going on and buy a tpb every once in a while of a current title if the storyline seems cool. Like I might once the current secret wars finally comes out as a tpb.

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Spider-ManWins

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#5  Edited By Spider-ManWins

i just wish they could go a bit darker

like cap 2 was perfect in tone

aou was too childish

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kfabz-23

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So basically things we already knew, comic books will be fine.

@spider-manwins: That's just Joss Whedon's style.

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lettsplay10

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Spider-ManWins

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#8  Edited By Spider-ManWins

@kfabz-23: imo, its good that he left then

first avengers was good becuase the villain didnt feel too threatening

it was a new concept, a whole mess of heroes vs a villain, so that "fun" tone suited it well

aou shouldve done something different. the trailers showcased a deep, and dark movie, but it ended being pretty much the ame.

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kfabz-23

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@spider-manwins: I think making the villain intimidating is his weakness, because of his dialogue style. He feels the need to add comedy where it's not even needed, and it takes the intimidation away from the villains. Two scenes he handled really well though, was the one with Thor before his fight with Ironman, Loki and Black Widow scene.

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joshmightbe

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Its not my money so I don't care what happens to it. Pretty much everything I loved about the comics are pretty much absent from the current issues and the only people that still care about those things are working on the MCU now.

You can complain all you want but the MCU Cap has way more in common with the Cap I grew up with than the modern guy who was just cool with internment camps after AvX does.

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Spider-ManWins

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@kfabz-23: i kinda liked the eerieness of the first ultron scene

dialogue and a longer talk couldve been better though

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kfabz-23

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@spider-manwins: that scene was good as well. I think the movie as a whole went down hill after the party scene. When I saw the scene where he first meets up with Quicksilver & Wanda his characteristics just felt off.

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Spider-ManWins

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@kfabz-23: from being eerie, he just turned into a goofball without explanation

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kfabz-23

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@spider-manwins: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=cPo9dZFKx80

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=1zGFZzvdsJ0

I always compare the two and I wonder how the animated version ended up being more intimidating.

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Claymore1998

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Awesome writeup.

Sad but true I suppose.

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Vivide

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@spambot: emphasis on "I found online", can't take credit for someone else's stuff but on imageboard so cant quote name

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Vivide

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Huh. Cool theory.

*Ponders the meaning of life*

42

the answer is 42

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darkdetective27

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@vivide: Well I guess DC does care about men because they have Margot Robbie on a stripper pole.

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stormshadow_x

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#21 stormshadow_x  Online

I'm confused

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deactivated-5c901e667a76c

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It wouldn't exactly surprise me if Marvel (and for that matter DC) stops publishing comics in my lifetime.

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sinikettu

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@xwraith: Well, Disney & WB both did it already... Yeah it's not as imposable a scenario as it might sound.

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Cream_God

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Kinda wish the MCU went away, that way they wouldnt have to rely on PR stunts for the comics and instead well written stories

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GraniteSoldier

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@xwraith said:

It wouldn't exactly surprise me if Marvel (and for that matter DC) stops publishing comics in my lifetime.

I've actually considered this as well, but not that they stop publishing all together. I think it wouldn't be at all surprising if we see the comics become extensions of the movie universes. Both companies have already confirmed that the CUs are alternate universes. So it wouldn't be surprising if those alternates became the main ones and the comics told other stories that take place around and between the movies.

It may not be something we fans want to here but at the end of the day Marvel and DC are businesses who's main goal is revenue through storytelling. If they are going to get more revenue with stories revolving around the movie versions everyone knows, then that's what they are likely to do. Makes sense from a business standpoint.

Just a theory at least.

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darkdetective27

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#26  Edited By darkdetective27

@granitesoldier: See I dont see this happening I think Superheroes will lose their mainstream appeal for a while and they will need the comic book readers to keep them a float.

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GraniteSoldier

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@darkdetective27: It's possible, but I don't think it'll go away so much as slow down. Hence the comics telling the CU stories between movies. James Bond has been around for 50+ years and people still go in droves. He is, by all accounts, a bit of a Batman-esque superhero.

They'll slow down, we won't get 2/3/4 movies a year, but I don't think they're going away so long as Marvel and DC still put solid work and writing into them.

The comics would then just become icing on the cake.

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deactivated-5c901e667a76c

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@granitesoldier: I know Marvel has published a handful of MCU tie-in comics.

I actually don't read anything from the big two now, and there's only one ANAD Marvel title that really interests me (it's not Guardians).

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GraniteSoldier

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@xwraith: I'm going to tough out a few more titles from Marvel and DC, but I'm close to leaving them again like I did in the late 90s (and didn't start reading again till like...2009).

Venom, GotG, Spider-Man are the three I'm going to try, with Captain Marvel, Ultimates, and Uncanny Avengers as maybes.

All I'm reading from DC right now is Green Lantern. I want to read Darkside War but I don't know if I want to sink the money into it.

Honestly, at worst, I'd give up everything but probably Venom and Green Lantern haha.

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deactivated-5c901e667a76c

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#30  Edited By deactivated-5c901e667a76c  Moderator

@granitesoldier: I started reading for real in 2010. The Marvel title I'm going to try is Old Man Logan - I'm not a fan of the original story, but I'm not passing up a Lemire/Sorrentino/Maiolo reunion.

And if it doesn't work, I'll stick with the indies I'm pulling.

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darkdetective27

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@granitesoldier: Yeah but I dont see them reducing the comics to supplementary material similar to the Star Wars comics. I do think that they wont have the box office draw that they do now though.