#151 Edited by Shawnbaby (10867 posts) - - Show Bio

@vance_astro said:

@blood1991 said:

@vance_astro said:

COSPLAY IS CONSENT!

What?! How? How is dressing a certain way entitle someone else to violate them? People aren't objects lying around to be used no matter what they wear.

I was actually just attention whoring.

Oh sweet babies thank goodness.

I know. I was about to lodge a complaint that Mod posts aren't able to be flagged.

#152 Posted by Shawnbaby (10867 posts) - - Show Bio

It's amazing how many people here don't understand the very simple concept of "Look but don't touch" and how many of you are part of the "blame the victim" crowd.

#153 Edited by The_MVPs (84696 posts) - - Show Bio

@teerack said:

You should know that this thread is about the way girls are treated because of the kind of costumes they wear, because I guess you got confused...

First we might as well established the, "confused" party here :)
.

Give it up for Sushi Killer @ 16-bit sirens, for addressing the issue of Sexual Harassment and Cosplay with her photo project....

This thread is not about the way girls are treated because of the costumes they wear. This thread was about praising 16-Bit Sirens "Photo" project addressing the subject of "Cosplay isnt Concent" Which was turned into how girls are "treated" by misinformed users who, instead of actually going to the site and checking the project for themselves, just regurgitated some Fox News like mumbles about, "Dress like a slut get treated like a slut."

@teerack said:

I just took the first image on google when i searched cosplay girl, and that's a remarkably shallow point because I could easily post over a 100 girls in in this thread in similar outfits that are not professionals with literally zero effort.

All the pictures you just posted have one thing in common, whats that? They are posing for the picture. What does that mean? That means they are cognizant of the fact that their outfits are designed to draw attention. Which if you bothered to check out the article you would see that that isnt the issue. The issue was with the fans who ask for a pic, place their hand on a girls back, and then at some point slide it down and grab some ass (get it? Cosplay isnt Consent). The issue was about girls in costumes turning around to find a dude with a camera crouching down in a three point stance trying to get an up the skirt shot (get it? Cosplay isnt Consent). Or guys asking for a picture and then a number, and when they get turned down for the number they launch into a verbal tirade. These arent women in shock that this is happening. These are women sharing their stories about it happening, calling attention to the issue. Which they should have every right to do. You proclaiming that it is somehow okay cause, "Dress like a slut get treated like a slut" is both laughable and sad. Whats the universal dress code for Slut? Is a Slut determined by how many people you sleep with by how many inches your skirt is above your knee? If I dress like Namor am I a Slut now? And does that mean women have free reign to grab my junk after photo's at Comic Con? When was that meeting held and where? If someone wants to dress up as Wonder Woman at the one place dressing up in elaborate costumes is not only accepted, its encouraged, then she should be able to do so without being physically or verbally assaulted, groped, stalked, or sexually harassed. By your logic Bully's in school can get a free pass for beating up smaller kids as long as they fit the Universal dress code for nerds. Or hey, "Look like a gangmember get treated like a gang member." Only problem is who is in charge of passing this unilateral dress code? Maybe we should all wear the same non-offensive, single agreed upon color, ankle length, snuggy like cloth :D

Some of those arent even convention Cosplay photos, that one chick is in her room.......and one is from a freakin strip club scene hahahah brilliant, brilliant rebuttal sir. Like I suggested before you should go and read the actual article. Cause while I'm sure it helps to think that these girls are just dancing around half naked going, "I dont understand what their looking at duuuuh." Its actually more about girls sharing their Con experiences and shedding light on a discouraging trend.

Comic Con gear, activated-

Moderator
#154 Edited by dngn4774 (3220 posts) - - Show Bio

@shawnbaby , @blood1991: I'm not blaming the victims or calling them sluts. I just think that other women should become aware that when the dress a certain way the increase their likelyhood of being targeted by creeps. Why do you assume that I'm defending these people by saying that? Most men already know that groping is wrong but some do it anyway because they don't have respect for these women and that is wrong, but to pretend like if we just have a long discussion about this that gropers are just going to go away is ridiculous.

We don't live in a world were people can dress like whatever they want without being judged because we don't have the power to control the behavior of every cruel human being that exists. Perhaps we should criticize the comic book companies for over sexualizing their female characters to sell books. Or do we just continue attacking everyone who doesn't agree that anyone can wear anything without putting themselves in risk of being harassed?

#155 Edited by dngn4774 (3220 posts) - - Show Bio

@sc said:

Okay so what we have here are arguments from ignorance and personal incredulity. I don't go to cons, and if I did it wouldn't be all of them, by virtue of that I don't know the extent of how prevalent sexual or physical harassment at cons are, maybe there is merit to an argument that an awareness campaign on the subject may "overestimating" the extent of the problem, but as a reference point I am aware of how prevalent sexual and physical harassment and violence are in reality and most western countries, but there we do know that statistically people tend to underestimate how much it occurs and by people I mean a large majority, the extent of which even those who think that the topic of sexual violence and incident is underrepresented and underestimated are still underestimating how much it happens. So as far as awareness campaigns and resources for education and prevention? Probably not a bad thing if people are overestimating as opposed to underestimating.

Arguing the status quo? Yeah thats great and easy, woman and men should no better should they? They should be aware should they? Men are just like that aren't they? Perverts? Helpless to staring and touching round things like basketballs and breasts? Can't have life without some ahole or a flock of aholes running around huh? Odin's beard what stunning revelations coupled with cynical idiosyncratic understandings of fellow persons. The ability to identify a persons arguments points is a pretty great thing, so as someone who is already aware that that people don't exist in a vacuum and a persons actions inherently play a part in what can happen to them, its quite strange to hear when people try to claim that "woman" should be aware of how they address to avoid certain situations. Reality is a bit more complicated than that because people have rights and those rights should be safeguarded and enforced as best as possible. Its akin to telling people whose family and friends get injured in car crashes that we know there are bad drivers and there are accidents with cars that cause death, and that maybe drivers should be more aware of... seriously? One in three woman in the United States will be a victim of some type of sexual assault in her life time, if anyone knows what "could" happen its woman, since experience is one of the best ways for people to you know? Know stuff. So as good intentioned as telling dem sluts not to dress like sluts are, its not helpful, its not funny, its not ironically hip, its stupid. Even telling them that dressing a certain way may invite danger because of common sense, even if well intentioned, can be a headache because common sense is common stupid. Sexual assault and rape for example are two very very different things, both deal with the perpetrators impulse control, but rape is about power and we know factually things like clothes or setting have little to no factor at all, majority of rapes occur in homes, by people who know the victim and the rapists find it hard to actually remember clothing, but still your going to find plenty of misinformed people who think its the way people dress that plays a large role in rape.

Similarly there are probably similar factors involved with inappropriate actions, gestures and behavior going on at comic cons. Peer pressure, impulse control, the psychology of power, you end up having people who think they are entitled and have the right to treat other people in disgusting and stupid ways and gender definitely plays a role. It plays a role in multiple ways that make victims out of men and woman, because it suggests that all males are perverts with no self control, and that woman are dressing a certain way for attention and that even if they are dressing a certain way for attention, that is invitation for more. Based on? Based on the subjective understandings and experiences on people which many strange and weird things will be going on within but stand to reason should not be a deterrent to people living life. We don't all just stay home even though it would help prevent car accidents, work place accidents. We don't stop drawing money out of a bank because we might get robbed or shot in a bank robbery. Hell homes are dangerous too, we don't nor should we spend time in our panic room because of what could happen, or because there might be creepy guys and creepy girls at a comic con. Their are risks, a lot of people have a good idea of these risks, and yes above I made a should argument so that is to say I know what should isn't actually in play right now.

Which means that people are trying to change the status quo so the should is in play, and ironically enough, we actually do know how change occurs, and awareness and education is a big step for fixing and bettering the behavior in multiple contexts. So again this idea that people should just accept what is is what is, is kind of naive. Its actually relatively easy to help people learn better impulse control, if you can actually identify the causes behind, and everyone could benefit by better education and awareness. The main problems are usually more to do with willingness and ego. The ego involved with overestimation/underestimation and attributing causes and reasons behind actions and incidents inaccurately, which these kinds of threads seem to just enforce. Don't be common with your sense, be science! Okay rant over. This post was brought to you by Science for Pres!

Finally some reason! At least someone has posted a counter position with a logical solution to this problem rather than the "come guys just behave better" crap that I've been hearing over and over again. I'd recommend boosting security at these events, you'd recommend educating younger generations, because if we just rely on the perpetrators to stop doing it we really won't solve anything.

#156 Edited by Rickbarry (1815 posts) - - Show Bio

This thread annoys me. I'm genuinely shocked that folks are blaming people that have been improperly touched/harassed.

#157 Posted by thehummingbird (3380 posts) - - Show Bio

how someone dresses does not make someone an object nor do clothes make someone slutty. did those clothes somehow take away a person's autonomy? no? then they are still a person who deserves the same amount of respect as any other person. on another note slut is not an insult and is also not limited to women; men are sluts too. how many or how often a person has sex with someone else is their own business and that in no way affects anyone other than their partners. skimpy outfits or a girl wearing something you think is hot or risque does in fact not make someone a slut. you have no idea how often of how many sexual partners they have and it is none of your business you are making a large assumption that is probably wrong. girls who wear skimpy clothing are not asking for it and as incredible as it may seem are not always after attention, rather they are expressing themselves. often women or men for that matter wear skimpy cosplays do so because they feel comfortable enough with themselves and do not need men/women who can not control themselves to yell vulgar things at them and clothing is in no way an invitation to touch someone. if you lay a hand on someone without their consent for any reason regardless of if you think they are a "slut" or "look like a slut" this is completely inappropriate. a person has rights to their own body it is one of the very few rights that i believe humans are entitled with at birth. no amount of clothing or assumptions about someones sex life makes it okay to touch another human without consent. i will also restate that a person who has frequent sex with multiple partners is in no way less than someone in a monogamous relationship. i probably missed some things, but their is a lot to address here.

@sc said:

@betatesthighlander1 said:

@sc: so, if rape has nothing to do with sex, would that mean that any instance motivated by sex wouldn't be rape? I'm also not very sure how accurate the "every two minutes" statistic is, the whole mental deffense mechanism thing sounds interesting, could you link me to some more information about that one?

Usually I find its best to define things by what they are, not what they aren't so your question confuses me a bit, hence my answer will sort of go in a different direction, if that is okay with you? Its not that rape has nothing do with sex, everything has to do with everything. With rape sex isn't usually a motivating factor as much as power and control and power and control issues. Sexual intercourse is a factor because its the method utilized to assert power and control. So approaching rape as a sex thing instead of a power and control thing isn't really that useful as far as fixing, addressing the problem. Hence the strong reaction to pointing out rape not being about sex but more about power and control (note the more part isn't meant to infer that rape has absolutely nothing to do with sex naturally)

Skeptical of the statistic that every two minutes someone is raped in the United States of America? Thats great, I think skepticism is great and should be encouraged especially as it pertains to spending money on resources, and especially especially as far as a persons own self and views are concerned and I am a bit skeptical of that number myself, given that I only spent about 5 minutes looking up a few various websites that I know are relatively reliable and have not had time to look at/verify the sources of info and double check and so on, and because a few of these websites gave out slightly different figures, one was 2 mins, another was 90 seconds, and a few of them were just applying the number as an average hence possibly more accurate to say that instead of a rape every 2 mins, there are XYZ number of rates a day because the likelihood that certain times experience more rape than others is probable. Based on what knowledge I have from the past on the subject the number isn't that unreliable.

It is pretty interesting, but I apologize, I am just too lazy to try and find and filter good sources, but Google is your friend and a few days/weeks of looking around various sites and following the trail of links that the good sites usually provide and some skepticism and critical thinking should do you alright. Its half of what I did, but I had to sift through a lot of nonsense as well. Oh and government websites as well don't have much by way of psychology papers, studies research but as far as above they are a potential resource. Hope that helps.

thank you SC as always for your wonderful posts.

#158 Edited by Strider92 (16733 posts) - - Show Bio

Wait wait........touching up and sexually objectifying women when they are dressed in costumes and not clothes doesn't automatically make it ok!?........I need to make some phonecalls.......and that restraining order suddenly makes a lot more sense!

Online
#159 Posted by Betatesthighlander1 (7462 posts) - - Show Bio

@sc: that seems resonable enough, before I continue this discyussion, which of these scenarios (as far as your concerned) would constitute rape

partner one doesn't want sex, but partner two begs partner one, and partner one eventually gives conscent?

stranger one acts more polite/confident/ attractive than stranger one is in real life to get stranger two to have sex?

Spouse 1 is lighty intoxicated and comes on to spouse two, and they engage in sex?

stranger one gives consent than takes it back halfway through the physical act of sex, but partner two still keeps going until climax?

#160 Posted by Catsnlynne (1039 posts) - - Show Bio

People don't dress up in sexy outfits and say to themselves. "I hope no one notices me".

#161 Edited by lykopis (10746 posts) - - Show Bio

Cannot believe I have not been aware of this thread until now -- I am disgusted by the ignorance, rape apologists and blatant misogyny that are smeared across four pages of complete sh*t.

F*ck you to all the people who says that anyone who dresses like a cosplayer (or a "slut") should take partial responsibility for harassment, verbal or physical. You all disgust me.

Edited to add: (I forgot to underline)

#162 Posted by judasnixon (6652 posts) - - Show Bio
#163 Posted by Bogey (948 posts) - - Show Bio

With all this talk about rape and sexual harassment at Comic Con, someone needs to dress up as Dr. Light.

#164 Posted by dngn4774 (3220 posts) - - Show Bio
#165 Edited by Jorgevy (5114 posts) - - Show Bio

@ccraft said:

@jorgevy said:

wow awesome! this is really cool, and more people should be aware to be careful with cosplayers, it's not an excuse for stuff...

but on another note

Yelling I'd bang you is not a compliment? wooow..... This is awkward

If girls yelled that at me I'd be okay with that :P

I'd actually feel really awesome! but girls are just diff on that department, there's lots of pervs out there

#166 Posted by VeganDiet (1086 posts) - - Show Bio

This is the most depressing thread of all time.

Look, if you leave your house without a bullet proof vest on, and you get shot, is it your fault?

No, so if a girl leaves her house in a skimpy outfit, it's not her fault if she's groped/assaulted.

#167 Posted by thehummingbird (3380 posts) - - Show Bio

This is the most depressing thread of all time.

Look, if you leave your house without a bullet proof vest on, and you get shot, is it your fault?

No, so if a girl leaves her house in a skimpy outfit, it's not her fault if she's groped/assaulted.

^ this

#168 Posted by Vance Astro (91286 posts) - - Show Bio

@rickbarry said:

This thread annoys me. I'm genuinely shocked that folks are blaming people that have been improperly touched/harassed.

Really? You're shocked? Are you new to CV?

Moderator
#169 Posted by Kal'smahboi (3561 posts) - - Show Bio

Wow, is this actually a big problem? I mean, I guess I assumed there would be a lot of staring and asking for pictures and whatnot, but I never thought there'd be this much harassment at a comic convention.

#170 Posted by lykopis (10746 posts) - - Show Bio

This is the most depressing thread of all time.

Look, if you leave your house without a bullet proof vest on, and you get shot, is it your fault?

No, so if a girl leaves her house in a skimpy outfit, it's not her fault if she's groped/assaulted.

Thank you. Succinct and perfect.

#171 Posted by Betatesthighlander1 (7462 posts) - - Show Bio

@kal_smahboi: I'm not entirely sure how much there is

@vegandiet: If someone's wearing a shirt that sya "what are ya gonna do, shoot me" to a convention filled with gun-nuts who have rarely had any oppurtunity to shoot another human being, you can't see how the person who was shot was goading them on?

#172 Edited by Blood1991 (8098 posts) - - Show Bio

@teerack said:

@blood1991 said:

@dngn4774 said:

@blood1991: Dude perverts exists whether we like it or not. We can pretend like every ones going to treat each other with respect but that isn't always the case and we should prepare for when that happens and work our way from there.

It isn't about pretending these people exist of course they exist, but slut shamming a woman or scaring her into wearing a freaking chastity belt isn't how we solve this problem. Instead of telling women what to wear maybe, just maybe we should emphasize NOT sexually assaulting people. When I was in High School it was never even discussed and I know men today who think it is f__king ok to have sex with a woman who is black out drunk. They don't consider that rape. Why aren't we teaching kids what sexual assault, rape, molestation and other sexual misconduct imply and we as a society need to make the consequences of these actions more severe.

@teerack said:

@blood1991 said:

@teerack said:

I want to dress like a slut, but get offended when i'm treated like a slut. #women's logic.

Why can't a woman wear whatever she wants to, or a man for that matter? If a man walked around in short shorts and a muscle tee is he worried about being molested? Raped? I doubt it. Yet if a woman wears a tank top and a skirt above her knees she is obviously asking for attention and if she gets groped it is obviously her fault and not the person who groped her, because she should have known better. Instead of telling f__king rapist that there is never an excuse to violate, molest or sexually assault a person.

Regardless of what a person wears they deserve respect.

That's a very after school special way of looking at it. Women AND Men are treated differently depending on how they present themselves. What you're suggesting could only really be possibly if our culture devolved a bit; it's just how humans have evolved as a civilization. I'm not saying discrimination should be allowed, but people will act differently towards you depending on how you present yourself it's imprinted in the way humans think.

I'm not pro rape by the way if that wasn't clear xD

How are we supposed to develop when we aren't even trying too? Saying "that's just the way it is" is just accepting it, and we shouldn't accept it. When something is wrong you address that it is wrong. Calling the Starfire cosplayer a slut who has to take responsibility for if she gets groped is wrong and that takes all personal responsibly from any and all persons who feel that they have the right to sexually assault her. What words like slut and whore do is dehumanize women. It somehow makes what they are doing ok, because she is no longer a person.

So instead of saying society need to progress I choose to progress and in the near future I hope society catches up.

Fictional characters that dress slutty dress slutty because... wait for it.....they aren't people. They're fictional characters, and if you like a character that dresses slutty, and you want to dress like her then guess what? It comes down to how much you respect your body and what you consider to be modest. If you're someone who is going to dress like this.

And then get upset about being objectified? The girls that dress slutty are the ones putting themselves out there, and objectifying themselves for everyone. Taking the same logic applying from what you're saying, a person should be able to walk down the street dressed as Hitler and people shouldn't treat him differently or get offended by it, and before you say these girls aren't hurting anyone I know a lot of women that would get offended by some of the trashy outfits girls wear to cosplay, maybe a few guys, but that's besides the point.

I don't think any smart person is going to claim that "oh a girl dressing slutty is a get out of jail free card when it comes to rape." and it's not okay to grope anyone, but actually trying to claim that the girl isn't at any fault for this is despicably irresponsible for social reasons. If society didn't frown a pone girl's dressing themselves up as sex objects then everyone would do it, and I don't know about you but the thought of that would is actually very vulgar and disgusting to me. What you're suggesting is the exact opposite of progression.

Wait... So she lacks self respect because she's wearing a skirt? That because she feels that she is beautiful and loves her body, she lacks modesty and has to take responsibility for OTHER people touching her, or screaming vulgar things at her? That is her fault? You are allowing this girl to be dehumanized based on what you and people who share your views think she should wear. You don't think that infringes her personal liberties? I mean really what she's wearing is know different than a swimsuit and no she isn't hurting anyone.

So if the human body disgust you that much then I don't really know what to tell you. Avoid the beach I guess.

#173 Posted by Blood1991 (8098 posts) - - Show Bio

@ccraft said:

@blood1991 said:

@ccraft

Agreed, guys can't help being perverts, but most know to keep there keeps to themselves.

I think if a girls cosplay is too revealing, they should be escorted out. You can't just go to places half dressed, they want the attention. Heck when I go jogging I take off my shirt to get attention, not to cool off.

Flirting is one thing, but touching a girl that isn't interested? I don't see nerds doing this often at conventions.

Guys can't help being perverted?! So a naked woman is standing in front of a man and well he's a guy so of course he's going to touch. He's a man after all he has needs, oh she doesn't want to consent? Than why is this whore naked in front of me? She must be teasing,. No means yes after all. See where I'm going with this?

Instead of making her leave maybe oggles and mr. touchy should be escorted out instead.

Need another example. Lets say you take off your shirt and another jogger grabs you and says he likes what he sees. Guess you got your attention huh and I mean he's a guy he can't control himself so shame on you for tempting him like that.

lol and you got all that to say from one sentence. "Agreed, guys can't help being perverts, but most know to keep there hands to themselves."

I'm just stating the obvious no more than your are stating ignorant random scenarios. I made my point though, no need to go more in depth.

Oh I used your whole post to point out how stupid and sexist that is and as to your point well if hiding behind your penis as an excuse is your point than please don't go any further in depth because I don't think anyone here wants to read that bullsh!t.

#174 Edited by Shawnbaby (10867 posts) - - Show Bio

@dngn4774 said:

@shawnbaby , @blood1991: I'm not blaming the victims or calling them sluts. I just think that other women should become aware that when the dress a certain way the increase their likelyhood of being targeted by creeps. Why do you assume that I'm defending these people by saying that? Most men already know that groping is wrong but some do it anyway because they don't have respect for these women and that is wrong, but to pretend like if we just have a long discussion about this that gropers are just going to go away is ridiculous.

We don't live in a world were people can dress like whatever they want without being judged because we don't have the power to control the behavior of every cruel human being that exists. Perhaps we should criticize the comic book companies for over sexualizing their female characters to sell books. Or do we just continue attacking everyone who doesn't agree that anyone can wear anything without putting themselves in risk of being harassed?

This is a little more extreme than the subject at hand...but it speaks to the same kind of mentality that says it's the cosplayers fault for dressing up

#175 Edited by Ellie_Knightfall (4819 posts) - - Show Bio

@shawnbaby: THANK YOU! I'd been looking for that for a while.

#176 Posted by VeganDiet (1086 posts) - - Show Bio

@kal_smahboi: I'm not entirely sure how much there is

@vegandiet: If someone's wearing a shirt that sya "what are ya gonna do, shoot me" to a convention filled with gun-nuts who have rarely had any oppurtunity to shoot another human being, you can't see how the person who was shot was goading them on?

The situation you're describing is one in which a person would be actively trying to be confrontational or disruptive. That's not equivalent at all. These girls are just trying to dress as their favorite characters and have fun. They're not goading anyone; they're just having fun. They should be able to dress skimpy, if they so desire, without having to worry about getting groped by assholes.

#177 Edited by dngn4774 (3220 posts) - - Show Bio

@shawnbaby: Your generalizing that I accused every man of being a rapist which I simply did not do. All I claimed was that gropers and other horrible men exist in the world and that waving a board that says "cosplay isn't consent" doesn't make them stop doing these things. They have to be punished for their actions and future generations have to learn that sexual harassment is inappropriate behavior. Other cosplayers should learn from this traumatic experience and try to protect themselves, but I guess that's just me being a rape apologist right?

#178 Posted by Betatesthighlander1 (7462 posts) - - Show Bio

@vegandiet: and people should be able to run around with their money hanging out of their pockets without having it stolen, but the fact that people can't isn't seen as an offense against people who own things, nor ist it portrayed as somethingg that can be stopped(made known by?) complaining about it on the internet

@shawnbaby: I don't know how much this applies to your ppost, but not all rapists are men and not everyone who gets raped is a lady.

#179 Posted by Shawnbaby (10867 posts) - - Show Bio

@dngn4774 said:

@shawnbaby: Your generalizing that I accused every man of being a rapist which I simply did not do. All I claimed was that gropers and other horrible men exist in the world and that waving a board that says "cosplay isn't consent" doesn't make them stop doing these things. They have to be punished for their actions and future generations have to learn that sexual harassment is inappropriate behavior. Other cosplayers should learn from this traumatic experience and try to protect themselves, but I guess that's just me being a rape apologist right?

And how are future generations supposed to learn that sexual harassment isn't appropriate behaviour if we can't ever have discussions about it?

#180 Edited by dngn4774 (3220 posts) - - Show Bio

@shawnbaby said:

@dngn4774 said:

@shawnbaby: Your generalizing that I accused every man of being a rapist which I simply did not do. All I claimed was that gropers and other horrible men exist in the world and that waving a board that says "cosplay isn't consent" doesn't make them stop doing these things. They have to be punished for their actions and future generations have to learn that sexual harassment is inappropriate behavior. Other cosplayers should learn from this traumatic experience and try to protect themselves, but I guess that's just me being a rape apologist right?

And how are future generations supposed to learn that sexual harassment isn't appropriate behaviour if we can't ever have discussions about it?

The discussion is being brought to the wrong audience. It should be brought to school boards and classrooms not the gen discussion forum at comicvine. Face to face with other people who are concerned with this issue and won't anonymously troll the topic. No adult's are on the fence about this issue, they either have one view or another. Children still have the ability to learn right from wrong before they form solid beliefs on the matter.

#181 Edited by Shawnbaby (10867 posts) - - Show Bio

@shawnbaby: I don't know how much this applies to your ppost, but not all rapists are men and not everyone who gets raped is a lady.

It doesn't matter whether it's men, women, or children that are being raped. The point is that it's wrong to say the prevention of rape is the victim's responsibility. When people say things like "She shouldn't have been there" or "What did she think would happen, dressing up like that?"...they are blaming the victim instead of the perpetrator.

#182 Edited by Shawnbaby (10867 posts) - - Show Bio

@dngn4774 said:

@shawnbaby said:

@dngn4774 said:

@shawnbaby: Your generalizing that I accused every man of being a rapist which I simply did not do. All I claimed was that gropers and other horrible men exist in the world and that waving a board that says "cosplay isn't consent" doesn't make them stop doing these things. They have to be punished for their actions and future generations have to learn that sexual harassment is inappropriate behavior. Other cosplayers should learn from this traumatic experience and try to protect themselves, but I guess that's just me being a rape apologist right?

And how are future generations supposed to learn that sexual harassment isn't appropriate behaviour if we can't ever have discussions about it?

The discussion is being brought to the wrong audience. It should be brought to school boards and classrooms not the gen discussion forum at comicvine. Face to face with other people who are concerned with this issue and won't anonymously troll the topic.

No...it is not being brought to the wrong audience when you consider how many people here are saying "She shouldn't have dressed like that"...if you don't want to engage in the conversation...that is your choice.

#183 Posted by dngn4774 (3220 posts) - - Show Bio

@shawnbaby: That's specifically why this is the wrong audience! Everyone made up their minds on the issue before the even read the topic so no one is going to budge.

#184 Posted by Shawnbaby (10867 posts) - - Show Bio

@dngn4774 said:

@shawnbaby: That's specifically why this is the wrong audience! Everyone made up their minds on the issue before the even read the topic so no one is going to budge.

Just leave the discussion if you don't want to take part in it. If you don't see how the way women are treated at comic conventions is specifically related to Comicvine then I don't know what else to tell you except that you are obviously part of the problem.

#185 Posted by SC (13227 posts) - - Show Bio

@thehummingbird said:

how someone dresses does not make someone an object nor do clothes make someone slutty. did those clothes somehow take away a person's autonomy? no? then they are still a person who deserves the same amount of respect as any other person. on another note slut is not an insult and is also not limited to women; men are sluts too. how many or how often a person has sex with someone else is their own business and that in no way affects anyone other than their partners. skimpy outfits or a girl wearing something you think is hot or risque does in fact not make someone a slut. you have no idea how often of how many sexual partners they have and it is none of your business you are making a large assumption that is probably wrong. girls who wear skimpy clothing are not asking for it and as incredible as it may seem are not always after attention, rather they are expressing themselves. often women or men for that matter wear skimpy cosplays do so because they feel comfortable enough with themselves and do not need men/women who can not control themselves to yell vulgar things at them and clothing is in no way an invitation to touch someone. if you lay a hand on someone without their consent for any reason regardless of if you think they are a "slut" or "look like a slut" this is completely inappropriate. a person has rights to their own body it is one of the very few rights that i believe humans are entitled with at birth. no amount of clothing or assumptions about someones sex life makes it okay to touch another human without consent. i will also restate that a person who has frequent sex with multiple partners is in no way less than someone in a monogamous relationship. i probably missed some things, but their is a lot to address here.

Great points THB, well presented.

that seems resonable enough, before I continue this discyussion, which of these scenarios (as far as your concerned) would constitute rape, partner one doesn't want sex, but partner two begs partner one, and partner one eventually gives conscent? stranger one acts more polite/confident/ attractive than stranger one is in real life to get stranger two to have sex? Spouse 1 is lighty intoxicated and comes on to spouse two, and they engage in sex? stranger one gives consent than takes it back halfway through the physical act of sex, but partner two still keeps going until climax?

In number scenario 1, it would depend, depends on whether it was really consent according to partner one, but based on your language I am assuming you really mean consent and not some type of emotional or psychological blackmail in which "verbal consent" is given. So if partner one doesn't consider they were raped then I wouldn't either.

Scenario 2, wouldn't see grounds for rape depending on the word like attractive. That could mean a lot of things, including lying. Traits like politeness and confidence on the other hand tend to naturally fluctuate anyway. Not sure how one could act more or less confident or polite since those things change situation to situation anyway but I understand that you are trying to paint the idea of someone using deception to get laid?

Scenario three depends on the relationship between the two spouses, is consent given by both? Pretty much isn't rape if it consent is given and or the two spouses know each other well enough that they can accurately tell when consent is implied.

Scenario four would depend. Depends on whether the spouse who retracted consent believed they were raped, believed that their partner was lucidly aware of their plea or wasn't, all those sorts of details so depends. Could be yes, could be no.

What if someone is wearing a shirt that says "what are ya gonna do, touch my booty and squeeze my breasts and twaddle my disco stick" to a convention filled with celibate virgins who have rarely had any opportunity to shoot their mini children into another human being, you can't see how the person who was groped and touched was goading them on?

What if someone is wearing a shirt that says "Vegan 4 Life" to a convention filled with hungry carnivores who have not had any opportunity to eat meat for 100 days, you can't see how the person who was caught and BBQed was goading them on?

What if someone is wearing a shirt that says "Be Happy, Don't Worry" to a convention filled with cynical depressed artists and musicians who make their livelihood from the sale of their sombre melodic art work and music, you can't see how the person who caused all of them to get fired and starve to death after they stopped being sad and got fired, but didn't care about money because they stopped worrying about earthly possessions, just being happy, was goading them on?

I mean I myself am a fan of analogies myself, as you can tell from above heh heh, but all these situations don't really fit, and we can actually just use the original example of people in cosplay at a convention for things that include cosplay because trying to compare the situation to other situations, like your example? I am not sure it helps. People assume a certain risk (like we all do), some better than others, but there is a difference from accepting a risk and seeking to bring to light unacceptable behavior and actions as far as knowing the potential risk but enforcing the elimination of the risk/affirming the rights of a person. There are differences between doing your own thing within your rights independently of over people and goading people. I am not sure that you could accurately accuse girls and guys who cosplay of goading people into any sort of action, especially actions that are inappropriate, and in some cases illegal. Again being aware of a potential risk is different from consent, otherwise - well your example - one could see how the person wearing the shirt was goading, but that wouldn't stand up in any decent countries law system if that person wearing the shirt was shot or beaten up. Plus what if they were wearing the shirt for irony sake and were a huge gun nut too? Analogy just sort of doesn't work too well.

Anyway 2 cents. Heh heh.

Moderator
#186 Edited by dngn4774 (3220 posts) - - Show Bio

@shawnbaby: The reason I stayed on this discussion is because I wanted to actually help solve this problem but so far all I've read is 4 pages of either people bitching about cosplay girls or people bitching about how judging cosplay girls is wrong. I was hoping that someone would actually attempt to solve this problem rather then just insult other users. So far only one user besides myself has actually proposed another solution that didn't include stating the obvious (groping is wrong! gee, that really helps prevent sexual harassment).

#187 Posted by Shawnbaby (10867 posts) - - Show Bio

@dngn4774 said:

@shawnbaby: The reason I stayed on this discussion is because I wanted to actually help solve this problem but so far all I've read is 4 pages of either people bitching about cosplay girls or people bitching about how judging cosplay girls is wrong. I was hoping that someone would actually attempt to solve this problem rather then just insult other users. So far only one user besides myself has actually proposed another solution that didn't include stating the obvious (groping is wrong! gee, that really helps prevent sexual harassment).

Considering how many people say things like "she deserved it for dressing like that" and "She wanted attention...now she's complaining about getting attention"I think starting at the basics of "Its wrong to touch any person without their consent regardless of what they may be wearing" is pretty appropriate.

#188 Edited by Betatesthighlander1 (7462 posts) - - Show Bio

@dngn4774: I don't know if this is the kind of problem thatg people can jus t up and "solve" in a way that will leave people satisfied.

@sc:

as far as your concerned,how does catcalling rate on the bad-things-to-do scale?

Could it be considered rape if a partner was entirlely capable of saying they didn't want it, and were under minimal duress(i mean, theres always some social pressure to have sex with someone), but still didn't say anything?

I'm kot trying to say that the people violated are guilty, and I'm certainly nto saying tha the people violating are innocent, I'm trying to say that on some, accidental level, their gaoding the other people. some people look at an exposedd lady and thjink "she's expressing herself" others look at an exposed lady and think "she must want attention" still others look and think "I could touch her without being caught" while I'll say that the third is certainly a terrible thing to beleive, either of the first two make some kind of logical sense as an analysis of the situation.

now, I'm certainly not saying that its their fault that the scantily-clad ones get molested (if this actually happenned, I haven't heard much as to anecdotes or statistics) , but they are taking a risk. they are going out in public and exposing themself, its like walking into a wildlife reserve wuthout any protection, the -predators are still responsible ofr their actions, but the victim could have taken more precautions

and complaining abiout sexual harassment opens a whole new door of people shouting "your only dressing like that to show us what we can never have", which I doubt is true for very many cosplayers, but a lot of people are going to think this. I mean, as far as this kind of movement goes it's doing pretty well on trying to educate on damage to the victims rather than castigating the imagined common predator. This is diffucult to give to the public without seeming to mean to people who didn't realize they were hurting anyone, seeming like a bunch of apologists, or looking like whiners.

#189 Edited by dngn4774 (3220 posts) - - Show Bio

@betatesthighlander1: Fair enough, but there's really no way of answering any of these discussions without offending someone. I just wish the majority of the posts weren't meant to do that.

#190 Posted by Betatesthighlander1 (7462 posts) - - Show Bio

@dngn4774: yeah, trying to solve a problem by yelling at people over the internet isn't usually a good strategy. Myabe an entirely civil discussion could get us somewhere, but I don't see that kind of thing happening.

#191 Posted by akbogert (3224 posts) - - Show Bio

@dngn4774 said:

@betatesthighlander1: Fair enough, but there's really no way of answering any of these discussions without offending someone. I just wish the majority of the posts weren't meant to do that.

Indeed. So, fellow Viners, prepare for an earnest attempt which will inevitably offend people anyway:

I'm going to preface this by saying I love this project, I deeply respect it, and I'm shocked whenever I see outright "blame the victim" mentalities on display. This massive post is not in response to OP directly or the project referred to, but in address to the various things I've read in this thread and my own position thereupon.

...

They say you shouldn't walk through Central Park alone at night.

It's not because if you get mugged, robbed, raped, or murdered, that was your fault. Obviously that's on the mugger, robber, rapist, murder.

It's just that to some extent if going to a certain place or acting in a certain way is likely to bring about something negative, and you have the opportunity to be forewarned and proactively evade that situation, it shouldn't be surprising when people say "I hope they catch the horrible person who did this" but also add "but how stupid do you have to be to walk through Central Park alone at night?"

It's not about alleviating the blame of the perpetrator. It's about acknowledging the value of prudence in situations that, despite how they shouldn't be, are often magnets for bringing out the worst in people.

I would never in a million years try to justify a rapist. The recent case which was brought up, with those athletes and the sympathetic "oh but what about their futures," makes my blood boil. If I had been in that courtroom with a gun I can't say for sure I wouldn't have used it. We have an extreme and insidious rape culture and many people here have touched upon that. I don't want to be misunderstood in any way as trying to support that culture or the people who contribute to it.

Touching another person without their consent is just not something that should happen. As has been pointed out, it happens even if people are fully-clothed. It's not just the ladies in thongs who have their butts groped, it's the women with jeans. Or armor. Or skirts. Basically it's the ladies with butts. And guess what? Those aren't optional.

I have reblogged the Cosplay =/= Consent photoset several times, with the various addendums of talented cosplaying women whom I follow and have befriended and greatly respect. I think it's a signal that needs massive boosting. But that doesn't mean I don't see some slight, if not holes, then dents in a couple of the messages being sent.

I think it's fairly clear that profanely expressing your desire to manhandle someone is sexual harassment. But when it comes to the verbal stuff, there does seem to be a messy line, and that's even been brought up by a female in this very thread: that telling someone you find them attractive is not inherently harassment and shouldn't be treated as such. It's just a little ridiculous because somewhere around the area of complimenting physique -- which many cosplayers who wanted to have the right body for the character poured weeks or months into making happen through diet and exercise, and thus may appreciate -- you segue into the area of appraising the person as an object.

Likely it's best to figure out what you're really saying before you say anything: are you just finding a roundabout way of saying "I want to bang you; I am thinking about having sex with you right now"? Because if so, that's probably unwanted. If on the other hand you are simply trying to acknowledge evident beauty and/or really are taking into account the effort that went into the artistic display this person is providing (of which the changing of body may or may not have been part), then you can probably go ahead, but proceed with caution, because a lot of less thoughtful people will likely have been offensive and your comments may be presumptuously lumped in with theirs if your phrasing isn't careful.

I find it rather difficult sometimes to find a line. A girl who wears a bikini in her fenced-in back yard may be able to say she's wearing it because she wants to tan most of her body; but the one who wears it while walking down the street has to acknowledge the practical purposes of the outfit are going unused, and that the secondary purpose of bikini design -- bodily display and sex appeal -- is at work. As has been pointed out in cartoons and even one of those (admittedly, a little obnoxious in its phrasing) "women's logic" images, the line between undergarments and women's swimwear is often nugatory and arbitrary, yet people who would agree that wearing their lingerie in the street is needlessly indecent seem perfectly okay with wearing something equally or more skimpy in public and don't expect anyone to think of them sexually. It's ridiculous. That's the very purpose of the design: to excite the imagination for what happens when that clothing is removed.

Beachwear is a unique situation. There's a practical purpose to it, and contextually while there are certainly some people and some bathing suits which are overtly trying to draw attention, clothing like a bikini is so ubiquitous that it becomes the norm within that situation. Oddly enough a fully-clothed swimmer would be, in that scenario, accused of attention-seeking, and would likely receive comments from some people. Outside of pools and beaches, however, there are few societally-acceptable situations for walking around with so little of your body covered. You are free to believe that society's norms should change, just as I am free to disagree (and maintain that that particular norm is one that I want to see stick around). To say a cosplayer's outfit is "no worse than a bikini" only works at the beach. Outside of that context in which the lack of clothing is culturally understood, wearing such little clothing -- even wearing a bikini -- would be looked down on or at least singled out by most people.

The truth is, because both comics and games (two prime sources of cosplay inspiration) are designed predominately by and for men, many of the female characters have been designed as sex objects, to entice the imagination in a similar way. I get that a woman does not cosplay because she wants to be a straight male's sex fantasy, but she often is stepping into the shoes of something created to be a straight male's sex fantasy. The skimpier the outfit, the more likely the character is to be seen as something evocative of sex drive, and the more likely the cosplayer is to evoke sex drive.

It is ridiculous to me for a half-naked woman, pretending to be a sex object, to get offended when people view her in a somewhat objectifying way. This really is one of those situations where the phrase "what did you expect" applies. No, it doesn't get people off the hook for rape or touching or overtly harassing language or behavior, but it is, at least to me, another case of "what on earth are you doing walking through Central Park alone at night?"

This whole thing just bothers me a little because I have quite literally seen some of my more hardcore feminist friends post things about how "a woman should be able to walk around wearing whatever she wants and not be judged" and I just outright disagree with that. Not because women should be careful or more modest, but because no one is immune from the messaging of clothing, and some clothing simply does convey and solicit certain mindsets. When I see anyone walking around half naked or with their genitals either emphasized or extremely close to falling out of the clothing, I consider that wrong. It's not just a gender thing.

If I see a guy walking around topless, I assume he's showing off. I assume that he is comfortable with the fact that, by choosing not to cover half his body, he is allowing himself to be objectified -- that people will look at him and think about his body. Should people go up and start rubbing his chest? No. But if someone whistled as they walked by would I consider him right to get indignant about it? No, I honestly wouldn't. That's the reciprocal message to the one that walking around half-naked transmits. It's the response people naturally assume you're looking for.

Honestly you just don't see a ton of promiscuous male character cosplaying. Perhaps that's because many guys either have an unwarranted aversion to sewing and crafting outfits for themselves, or because they're too out of shape to do the character justice. I don't know. I just know I see a lot more female cosplayers than male and that the male ones tend to be modest. Probably because most male characters are modest.

The only truly revealing male cosplay I've ever seen was a couple years ago at a PAX East where a guy cosplayed Vincent Brooks -- the main character from the game Catherine -- in all his sheep-horns, boxers, and nothing else glory. Aside from the pillow in his hands the guy was for all intents and purposes wandering around the convention hall in his underwear.

My point? That no, no one should have been touching him or trying to pants him or propositioning him. But saying "ooh, nice abs" or even making character-specific remarks dealing with dreams or bedtime? I can see how some would call that harassment. But I think that sort of thing comes with the territory. You dress as certain characters, you are asking for more lewd attitudes than you would had you dressed differently.

Nothing will ever absolve people from individual responsibility, but I am so sick of the "gotcha" mentality that says people can dress unequivocally like sluts (guy or girl) and then take no part of the blame when people respect them less. Society (and I say, rightfully so) has established concepts like prudence and common decency. You can be a rebel all you want and defy those standards, but to expect people to treat you as if you were doing nothing at all out of the ordinary is, honestly, inane. Most people have low opinions of guys or girls who walk around in their underwear. If your cosplay is analogous to that, understand that you will be viewed accordingly.

I'm all about stopping the rapists and harassers and making them own up to their wretchedness. I'm not trying to mitigate that side of the argument. But to the extent that "freedom to do or say or wear whatever I want with no consequences" seems to piggyback on this movement, I don't pass along this message without caveat. I don't mean to imply that that was the original purpose of 16-Bit Siren's movement. Nor do I think it's what many of the excellent people who have (like me) passed this along and defended it are trying to say. But since it seems to have been sort of brushed upon in this thread (and it shows up in my tumblr feed all the time, most recently because of this movement), I just wanted to put it out there.

If you beg for attention, or knowingly do something which is guaranteed to bring you a lot of attention (even if that attention is not your primary reason for doing it), you must be prepared to deal with the fact that some of that attention will be negative. It's collateral. It's going to happen, and since you can predict that before engaging in the behavior, you have no real defense against it. Don't want people to call you a slut or think of you as one? Then don't dress in a slutty way. If you think there are benefits to the outfit which outweigh that consequence, then go for it, by all means! But don't expect people to stop thinking that way just because you want to dress that way. At worst, it's naive. At best, it's futile. I'm fine with people saying they don't care if people think they're a slut, because "people who know me know I'm not one." But that's different from complaining when people think you're a slut.

And because someone wanted a definition of "slutty," in this particular case I mean dressing in a way which the designers of that clothing intended to evoke sexual thinking. When it comes to cosplay, the question changes: was this character designed to make people think of having sex with her (or him)? Is this costume clearly designed to cater to depravity? If the answer to those questions is yes, then you're wearing a slutty outfit. Note: sex appeal and flattery are not synonymous with sluttiness, but it's fairly clear that some outfits were designed for a bedroom and have simply been used beyond that context for titillation.

Quite simply, if you are wearing clothes that were designed to make people think about having sex with their wearer, then you do not have a right to be offended if people think about having sex with you or allude to the efficacy of the outfit. It does not matter at all if your reasons for the outfit are different. That's not how communication works. If the clothes you wear transmit "sexytime" then you saying "I'm just expressing myself, that's not what I meant at all" is irrelevant. Clothes are part of communication just like verbal and other nonverbal cues. How you dress says something about you, and the fact that you misinterpreted how most people would read your outfit doesn't absolve you of the message that outfit is sending.

And because someone is bound to get offended and blow my words out of context, I want to again reiterate that I'm talking about attitudes and mindsets and possibly some (but not all) speech. Flagrantly offensive or thoughtless speech, and any kind of physical action (stalking, rubbing, touching, grabbing, etc.) are still completely uncalled for no matter what the situation is. Note accordingly that all my distinction between sexy and slutty outfits really doesn't change much in terms of the majority of the things being complained about here, because no matter how much or little you respect a person or question their intentions, there is still no excuse for your own misconduct. As has been very clearly pointed out, the sorts of people who are willing to grope a stranger at a convention do not require enticement of any sort, and the amount of skin shown has very little impact. I'm not arguing for modesty and cosplayer responsibility to defend victimizers. I'm arguing for those things because I think they are inherently useful things.

That image someone posted about how men should be offended by the implication they are incapable of controlling themselves is spot-on. I know someone will still see me as making excuses for rapists but hopefully the reasonable among you will understand that I am not doing that at all. I just think there's a hint of validity in what some of the dissenters in this thread have said, and I'm hoping I brought it out (or at least, brought out why I see it as valid) in a way which does not immediately make me look like a misogynistic rape apologist.

I will always lament the victims in Central Park. I will always want to see it cleaned up and the terrible people who make it dangerous at night captured and dealt with accordingly. But that won't keep me from asking what people are doing walking alone there at night -- and I will laugh at anyone who suggests I'm out of line for doing so.

#192 Posted by Shawnbaby (10867 posts) - - Show Bio

@dngn4774: I don't know if this is the kind of problem thatg people can jus t up and "solve" in a way that will leave people satisfied.

@sc:

as far as your concerned,how does catcalling rate on the bad-things-to-do scale?

Could it be considered rape if a partner was entirlely capable of saying they didn't want it, and were under minimal duress(i mean, theres always some social pressure to have sex with someone), but still didn't say anything?

I'm kot trying to say that the people violated are guilty, and I'm certainly nto saying tha the people violating are innocent, I'm trying to say that on some, accidental level, their gaoding the other people. some people look at an exposedd lady and thjink "she's expressing herself" others look at an exposed lady and think "she must want attention" still others look and think "I could touch her without being caught" while I'll say that the third is certainly a terrible thing to beleive, either of the first two make some kind of logical sense as an analysis of the situation.

now, I'm certainly not saying that its their fault that the scantily-clad ones get molested (if this actually happenned, I haven't heard much as to anecdotes or statistics) , but they are taking a risk. they are going out in public and exposing themself, its like walking into a wildlife reserve wuthout any protection, the -predators are still responsible ofr their actions, but the victim could have taken more precautions

and complaining abiout sexual harassment opens a whole new door of people shouting "your only dressing like that to show us what we can never have", which I doubt is true for very many cosplayers, but a lot of people are going to think this. I mean, as far as this kind of movement goes it's doing pretty well on trying to educate on damage to the victims rather than castigating the imagined common predator. This is diffucult to give to the public without seeming to mean to people who didn't realize they were hurting anyone, seeming like a bunch of apologists, or looking like whiners.

Oh goodness...we wouldn't want people who are sexually molesting other human beings to feel that they are being persecuted against.

Whether they realize it or not...they are hurting people...and they need to understand that.

#193 Edited by Betatesthighlander1 (7462 posts) - - Show Bio

@akbogert: That was a very intelligent and well thought-out comment, and I pretty musch agree with everything you said there

I'm not entirely sure how much this is worth, but I gained some serious respect and I'm not talking about benefit of the doubt respect, I'm talking a bout personal hero respect) for you after reading what you ahve written

#194 Edited by RazzaTazz (9676 posts) - - Show Bio

@lykopis said:

Cannot believe I have not been aware of this thread until now -- I am disgusted by the ignorance, rape apologists and blatant misogyny that are smeared across four pages of complete sh*t.

F*ck you to all the people who says that anyone who dresses like a cosplayer (or a "slut") should take partial responsibility for harassment, verbal or physical. You all disgust me.

Edited to add: (I forgot to underline)

Can we tone it down a bit with the non-swearing swearing please.

Moderator
#195 Edited by SC (13227 posts) - - Show Bio

@sc:as far as your concerned,how does catcalling rate on the bad-things-to-do scale?Could it be considered rape if a partner was entirlely capable of saying they didn't want it, and were under minimal duress, but still didn't say anything?I'm kot trying to say that the people violated are guilty, and I'm certainly nto saying tha the people violating are innocent, I'm trying to say that on some, accidental level, their gaoding the other people. some people look at an exposedd lady and thjink "she's expressing herself" others look at an exposed lady and think "she must want attention" still others look and think "I could touch her without being caught" while I'll say that the third is certainly a terrible thing to beleive, either of the first two make some kind of logical sense as an analysis of the situation.

now, I'm certainly not saying that its their fault that the scantily-clad ones get molested (if this actually happenned, I haven't heard much as to anecdotes or statistics) , but they are taking a risk. they are going out in public and exposing themself, its like walking into a wildlife reserve wuthout any protection, the -predators are still responsible ofr their actions, but the victim could have taken more precautions, and complaining abiout sexual harassment opens a whole new door of people shouting "your only dressing like that to show us what we can never have", which I doubt is true for very many cosplayers, but a lot of people are going to think this. I mean, as far as this kind of movement goes it's doing pretty well on trying to educate on damage to the victims rather than castigating the imagined common predator. This is diffucult to give to the public without seeming to mean to people who didn't realize they were hurting anyone, seeming like a bunch of apologists, or looking like whiners.

Depends on the context, like most things. Catcalling a shy quiet 10 year old girl who is receiving an aware at school assembly isn't really appropriate. One person catcalling another in a context where they know they are going to lift a persons self esteem? Hey why not right?

Well you use the magic word in could? You know what happens when you use the magic could right? There isn't really a yes or no answer. Could Michael Jackson destroy America tomorrow after time traveling from the future with an army of robot monkeys? Well he probably will not, in fact you could say its almost definitely sure he won't and be pretty accurate, but its almost impossible to rule out absolutely completely because thats sort of what the word could does.

Can I reword your question and see if you are okay with my rephrasing? Are you asking if its implied consent (a person didn't object to sex therefore they consented to sex) is okay to dismiss rape? That depends, yes or no. A person is putting themselves at risk (legally for one) by not getting direct consent as far as sex. Implied consent is trickier, even for couples who are married, since its reported at various sites that 1 in 7 married woman have raped by their husbands. That being said some people are simply better at reading other people than other people. Some men and woman can be more empathic and so can identify actual consent even if its not expressly given verbally and if the other person advances and isn't oblivious to signs that consent is not given. Then again some people, woman and men may feel entitled if a person is asleep or so drunk they can't stand or talk that consent is implied, again, you open yourself up to risk. Its even a risk as far as a potential partner lying as well, so probably not a bad idea to restrict sexual advances towards people one knows won't lie.

Goading means traditionally to provoke, urge or annoy, so its a bit hard to accidentally goad, unless my dictionary resources are all wrong, but I think I get what your saying. Your saying that some people may accidentally lead on others right? Thats true, but the thing is that is applicable to everything and isn't a mutually exclusive line of reasoning. Which basically makes it an excuse, since the perception of a person can be in as much error as a person and their dress sense. If a person is raised in an environment where they are taught that everyone who wears red is diseased and in severe pain and needs to be shot as mercy, the idea that people who wear red are accidentally goading the person who goes around shooting people who are diseased is fallacious. Its the person shooting or performing the shooting who understanding is at fault. I know your examples are extreme, but to put another way, a person is given the freedom and right to think, and so judging whether other people are "goading" "attention seeking" "attractive" "sexy" "chubby" "pretty" "cute" "not in canon with the character they are portraying" "skinny" slutty" may be varying levels of accurate or inaccurate, they may be shallow, they may be judgmental, they may be rude or harsh, but they are relatively non invasive thoughts, opinions, musings are usually pretty subjective. They therefore also do not violate a persons rights and liberties, as well as being an expression of ones rights and liberties to be able to think and in many ways express those beliefs and opinions. Actions however, especially inappropriate actions, invasive inappropriate actions whether well intentioned or not, whether as a joke or not, if not invited by consent do run the risk of violating a persons rights and liberties, and the annoying thing about some of the potential actions here is that many victims will sort of be stuck, because its probably not worth the effort as far as bringing the law into the situation, even if its a breach that could be punished by the law. Which in many ways can empower a guy or girl into slapping the ass of another person because they can be empowered by the idea that no one will actually be bothered enough or offended enough to make a "huge" deal about it. That or they may be empowered by ignorance and not realize that certain actions of that nature are against the law.

So the person actually thinking about touching and not getting caught, yeah they are the one who is invading and violating another persons personal space and rights and implied consent by virtue of dress or lack of won't fly because you aren't allowed to put your hands or touch anyone consciously or deliberately, even naked people!

Actually everyone takes a risk inherently by living and breathing. So you don't need to parallel an example as in people going into a wildlife reserve without protection, although I again appreciate the analogy. Are you aware that people rob homes? Are you aware that there are gangs? Are you aware that there are guns? If you aren't? You are aware now, as I am. Right now there is a possibility that a gang of up to 40 people with machine guns may come to your (or mine) home or job and try to rob you (or me) of everything. Are you taking every precaution to ensure that never happens by building a fortress and hiring 100 body guards, or are you counting on the fact that it shouldn't happen and probably shouldn't happen? In this case it probably won't happen. Point is being aware of risks shouldn't dictate how a person lives their life, hence why we have laws and rights and responsibilities. Saying that the victim could take more precautions is like telling all the people who get injured in car accidents every, victims of drunk drivers that they could have taken more precautions. Yeah, honestly they probably could have, they could have stayed home and not ever used a car ever,just like people could stay home and cosplay in their bedroom, but driving a car has benefits and rewards and cosplaying is fun and their are risks but there are laws as well, sexual harassment and drink driving is wrong and the ideal is to reduce and eliminate those things and in the mean time, still live life without letting the risks rule over people.

Absence of personal experience is not really evidence of absence, we know their are sexual predators out there, even if I too have not seen any at comic cons (I don't go to comic cons) and judgmental or ignorant opinions such as thinking people are "sluts" or attention seekers aren't so much a problem as invasive actions and joint behavior. I agree the movement has at least sparked conversation which is great. It reminds me of the Slut Marches and Parades which seemed pretty successful too! The funny thing about comic fans is that I think a lot of us hope that we can and traditionally preempt the mainstream by virtue of being so clever, patient, empathetic about people. I mean we spend all our time reading about heroes traditionally, and doing the right think, and protecting and helping people. Its that sort of intelligent optimism that should give us an edge on these sort of things. Public might take things a bit slow true.

Hey it was a pleasure talking to you, I have to go now, but will reply back when I can, you have a nice weekend yeah!

Moderator
#196 Posted by Betatesthighlander1 (7462 posts) - - Show Bio

@shawnbaby: I'v heard some anecdotes about people who were cat-called, and certainly subjected to rude action, but I havn't heard any major stories that would have permanent effects on someone's life.

Don't misunderstand IU do beleive taht we should at least try to give potential agressors ome sense of empathy or sypathy if we really wnat them to stop what their doing, but yellwhen someone's revealing a larger than average portion of fesh, making comments on said flesh often seems appropriate, and jokes aout that often attempt(success rates aren't something I want to get into) to defuse the tension of talking to a peson who's very attractive body is right in front of you.

touhing without ermission is to far.

#197 Edited by Teerack (7069 posts) - - Show Bio

@gambler said:

@teerack said:

You should know that this thread is about the way girls are treated because of the kind of costumes they wear, because I guess you got confused...

First we might as well established the, "confused" party here :)
.

Give it up for Sushi Killer @ 16-bit sirens, for addressing the issue of Sexual Harassment and Cosplay with her photo project....

This thread is not about the way girls are treated because of the costumes they wear. This thread was about praising 16-Bit Sirens "Photo" project addressing the subject of "Cosplay isnt Concent" Which was turned into how girls are "treated" by misinformed users who, instead of actually going to the site and checking the project for themselves, just regurgitated some Fox News like mumbles about, "Dress like a slut get treated like a slut."

@teerack said:

I just took the first image on google when i searched cosplay girl, and that's a remarkably shallow point because I could easily post over a 100 girls in in this thread in similar outfits that are not professionals with literally zero effort.

All the pictures you just posted have one thing in common, whats that? They are posing for the picture. What does that mean? That means they are cognizant of the fact that their outfits are designed to draw attention. Which if you bothered to check out the article you would see that that isnt the issue. The issue was with the fans who ask for a pic, place their hand on a girls back, and then at some point slide it down and grab some ass (get it? Cosplay isnt Consent). The issue was about girls in costumes turning around to find a dude with a camera crouching down in a three point stance trying to get an up the skirt shot (get it? Cosplay isnt Consent). Or guys asking for a picture and then a number, and when they get turned down for the number they launch into a verbal tirade. These arent women in shock that this is happening. These are women sharing their stories about it happening, calling attention to the issue. Which they should have every right to do. You proclaiming that it is somehow okay cause, "Dress like a slut get treated like a slut" is both laughable and sad. Whats the universal dress code for Slut? Is a Slut determined by how many people you sleep with by how many inches your skirt is above your knee? If I dress like Namor am I a Slut now? And does that mean women have free reign to grab my junk after photo's at Comic Con? When was that meeting held and where? If someone wants to dress up as Wonder Woman at the one place dressing up in elaborate costumes is not only accepted, its encouraged, then she should be able to do so without being physically or verbally assaulted, groped, stalked, or sexually harassed. By your logic Bully's in school can get a free pass for beating up smaller kids as long as they fit the Universal dress code for nerds. Or hey, "Look like a gangmember get treated like a gang member." Only problem is who is in charge of passing this unilateral dress code? Maybe we should all wear the same non-offensive, single agreed upon color, ankle length, snuggy like cloth :D

Some of those arent even convention Cosplay photos, that one chick is in her room.......and one is from a freakin strip club scene hahahah brilliant, brilliant rebuttal sir. Like I suggested before you should go and read the actual article. Cause while I'm sure it helps to think that these girls are just dancing around half naked going, "I dont understand what their looking at duuuuh." Its actually more about girls sharing their Con experiences and shedding light on a discouraging trend.

Comic Con gear, activated-

Yeah so in other exactly what I was saying they are being treated different/harassed because of how they are dressing. The fact that they are posing means and changes nothing, and if you think about it now that I pointed that out I really hope you're able to realized how irrelevant that is as well.

You whole "point" is basically saying you don't understand society very well. Would I ever grope a girl? No. Would get in a fight if someone groped one of my friends? Yes. Is it wrong to grope someone? No shit. Is anyone that claims girls dressing slutty are at fault for getting raged a moron? Yes. But if you are dressing a way where the modern society perceives it in a way that is slutty then that makes you look like you don't respect your body and that, and if that's the case then you wont be treated with respect. It is your responsibility to present your self in a way you want to be perceived.

@sc said:
@ccraft said:
@teerack said:

Fictional characters that dress slutty dress slutty because... wait for it.....they aren't people. They're fictional characters, and if you like a character that dresses slutty, and you want to dress like her then guess what? It comes down to how much you respect your body and what you consider to be modest. If you're someone who is going to dress like this.

And then get upset about being objectified? The girls that dress slutty are the ones putting themselves out there, and objectifying themselves for everyone. Taking the same logic applying from what you're saying, a person should be able to walk down the street dressed as Hitler and people shouldn't treat him differently or get offended by it, and before you say these girls aren't hurting anyone I know a lot of women that would get offended by some of the trashy outfits girls wear to cosplay, maybe a few guys, but that's besides the point.

I don't think any smart person is going to claim that "oh a girl dressing slutty is a get out of jail free card when it comes to rape." and it's not okay to grope anyone, but actually trying to claim that the girl isn't at any fault for this is despicably irresponsible for social reasons. If society didn't frown a pone girl's dressing themselves up as sex objects then everyone would do it, and I don't know about you but the thought of that would is actually very vulgar and disgusting to me. What you're suggesting is the exact opposite of progression.

I mean come on shes pretty much wearing a bra and a skirt, shes not a fan of Pikachu, shes a fan of attention. So I agree with you! And her skirt is pulled down super low! Geez, I'm guessing no underwear!

Fan of attention =/= fan of being treated as less than human.

Okay with being stared at and being stared at in real life even when wearing jeans and a loose fitting top because people (guys and girls, and yes girls, its statistically proven, and no not to do with lesbianism) =/= okay at having 3 or 4 guys follow you around from a distance taking photos at you, from various angles and then hugging you for the lulz.

Okay with being sexy and perceived as sexy =/= being sexually groped.

Its these small little things you know? I am not saying that you are saying the bad angles above are okay, I am saying that there are differences between the two and you and me may be able to spot them some people actually can't and need to be educated and made aware of this.

The word "slutty" is also a really objective word, so using it to convey a point seems systematic of a person who is unaware of a life outside their own experiences because its such a watery and vague word, and sort of reminds me of the point I made about with people who think that rape victims dress slutty and so the best way to avoid rape is to dress in plain clothes. If slutty is being used as synonymous with sexy then there isn't anything wrong with dressing sexy because sexy and inappropriate and sexy and revealing and revealing and inappropriate are all different words and concepts. The only valid word here is inappropriate as far as how people should be treated negatively and or with consequences and those are enforced by laws and convention rules.

The offense card and irresponsible social reasons arguments lack merit because they too can be applied from a persons own subjective standard, which could make black people, gay people, white people, cross dressers, transgender, transexual, lesbians, all "offensive" and there have been many "social reasons" advocating intolerance to aforementioned groups but they have all been chipped away. Progression is about standards presented meeting good reasons versus bad reasons and a persons sense of sexuality and sluttiness and vulgarity is not a good indication of what a society as a whole should do, unless they actually have really good, considerate, intelligent objective arguments and reasons.

Plus that Star Wars looking guy in the background with a brown cape and outfit is of course free balling sans underwear, who cares? Maybe it makes him better at using the Force? Underwear that one has not wearing they are not! =p

"Fan of attention =/= fan of being treated as less than human."

If you're using your body as an object to get attention no one else is going to treat you differently, and I'm sure the girls that objectify themselves don't want to be treated poorly, but if they are treating they're self's poorly then so will everyone else. It has nothing to do with being comfortable with their body and sexuality. It has to do with the fact they don't seem to care about modestly which means they clearly don't care if their body is out on display for everyone to see.

"Okay with being stared at and being stared at in real life even when wearing jeans and a loose fitting top because people =/= okay at having 3 or 4 guys follow you around from a distance taking photos at you, from various angles and then hugging you for the lulz."

I don't anyone is trying to disagree with that... those people are sex offenders and should be arrested? The people at cons should be to, but that doesn't mean it's a free pass for women to walk around in the skimpiest costume they can find. They do have the right to, but it's not good for society in so many ways.

"Okay with being sexy and perceived as sexy =/= being sexually groped."

Again I've agreed with this in all of my posts. My point is that women should take responsibility for the outfits they are wearing, because unless they physically touch them anything else that happens to them they should expect. (Staring, pictures, rude talk, etc.)

"The word "slutty" is also a really objective word, so using it to convey a point seems systematic of a person who is unaware of a life outside their own experiences because its such a watery and vague word, and sort of reminds me of the point I made about with people who think that rape victims dress slutty and so the best way to avoid rape is to dress in plain clothes. If slutty is being used as synonymous with sexy then there isn't anything wrong with dressing sexy because sexy and inappropriate and sexy and revealing and revealing and inappropriate are all different words and concepts. The only valid word here is inappropriate as far as how people should be treated negatively and or with consequences and those are enforced by laws and convention rules."

Personally I've always realized the huge flaw in giving a word power and realize it's always hurt the cause more then help it, but if you don't want me to use slutty I wont. I guess the best phrase i can think of that means what I've been using the world slutty for would be "overly skimpy" or "inappropriately revealing." I don't really want to get into a langue discussion because If memory serves right women are the ones who really use worlds like slut and whore statistically.

"The offense card and irresponsible social reasons arguments lack merit because they too can be applied from a persons own subjective standard, which could make black people, gay people, white people, cross dressers, transgender, transexual, lesbians, all "offensive" and there have been many "social reasons" advocating intolerance to aforementioned groups but they have all been chipped away. Progression is about standards presented meeting good reasons versus bad reasons and a persons sense of sexuality and sluttiness and vulgarity is not a good indication of what a society as a whole should do, unless they actually have really good, considerate, intelligent objective arguments and reasons."

I really admire your point of view. When I was younger(not calling you young don't know your age.) I used to be really optimistic and be all about this kind of stuff, and personally I don't care much about what other people want to do, and I wont stop them, but when I got to college and majored in sociology I guess it turned me into a bit of a cynic :P One of the main things I learned over and over is that all higher forms of civilization need to have standards and a level or modesty to actually function and prevent it's self from tipping over the edge and moving backwards.

Idk if you're old enough to have kids but say you have a daughter. Would you want or let her dress in any overly skimpy outfit she wants? I'm going to assume no, and why would most people say no? Because they want to protect their daughter. There are just certain things that if you change have bigger consequences then people realize. There are groups out there that believe the kind of stuff you believe in. Mostly small commune community, but those kind of things don't work when they get too big.

I think cons should have a dress code honestly. The people that are coming there dressed in almost nothing aren't at fault for the harassment but they are loading the gun.

Think bout this in a completely robotic way for a second. If people are allowed to bring their own weapons to a con and people keep getting hurt how do you fix the problem? You ban weapons. Who is that protecting? Everyone.

If girls wearing super skimpy outfits are getting harassed how do you stop the issue? Banned skimpy outfits. Who is that protecting? Everyone.

And before anyone want's to try and claim it's a violation of rights it doesn't matter. You enter a school and the same rules apply if you don't like them walk out.

We live in a Rape Culture world. I don't like any more then you but it's the reality of things.

Also I'm atheist because I'm sure some people are trying to blame by point of view on christian values or something like that, so they can pass it off as ignorant, but in actuality I just don't have the luxury of thinking I'm going to a perfect world when I die. For me this is the only world and I'd rather not see it get ruined by people lack or awareness of cause and effect. :P

I was actually really enjoying this conversation, because for once on this site I found a smart enough person to have a diffident opinion who can actually stay respectful and impersonal. But I'm kind of getting the vibe from other people here that they can't really grasp what I'm saying and are looking at me as someone who is trying to blame the girls for rape. I'd rather not be precised that way even if it's wrong, so I'm gonna bow out now, and retreat from this discussion. Bye~

#198 Posted by The_MVPs (84696 posts) - - Show Bio

@teerack: You didnt even read my post did you? Its okay I didnt really expect you to. The minute I read, "Dress like a Slut get treated like a Slut" I should have known right away responding to anything else was going to be a waste of time. Thats my bad.

Moderator
#199 Posted by judasnixon (6652 posts) - - Show Bio

I F-ing hate this thread. When I started this thread I was trying to show people someone's art that I thought was pretty cool...... I never thought this was going to turn into a F-ing debate about if it's Ok to sexual harass someone! This is just stupid........ I'm walking away in frustration.

#200 Posted by lykopis (10746 posts) - - Show Bio

@lykopis said:

Cannot believe I have not been aware of this thread until now -- I am disgusted by the ignorance, rape apologists and blatant misogyny that are smeared across four pages of complete sh*t.

F*ck you to all the people who says that anyone who dresses like a cosplayer (or a "slut") should take partial responsibility for harassment, verbal or physical. You all disgust me.

Edited to add: (I forgot to underline)

Can we tone it down a bit with the non-swearing swearing please.

Can we not target me?

Thanks.