Why isn't this considered a FTL feat ?

@imperfect_cell: Still slower than Superman.

Super cereal

Panel flow isn't a valid indicator of time....I already went through the flaws in assuming so in my previous posts

Tiens solar flare is light and was used EFFECTIVELY all the way up to the Cell saga. If their blast were FTL in the saiyan saga, why wasn't the solar flare easily dodged?

I don't agree that any blast in DBZ moved at even light speed since the evidence isn't there to support it.

Why wouldn't it make sense? DBZ characters don't have to be MFTL or even light speed to be considered fast....but, just my two cents, even though I can't prove it,I think DBZ high tier characters reached light speed combat somewhere in the buu saga. The reasons being are that the solar flare wasn't even used once and we finally get our first confirmed light speed travel feat (Gotenks circling the world). But, again, just my two cents.

I agree. Saiyan Saga Piccolo's blast is slower than New-52 Superman.

@imperfect_cell: Nu52 Superman is still more powerful than all of DBZ

For anyone who sees this, we're just screwing with each other

@imperfect_cell: Too bad none of them could hurt the guy who tanked a timeline-level attack.

Ah, if only outliers weren't a thing......

@imperfect_cell: Gorr-killed Elder Gods. Multiple Celestials-multiversal stated by Kubrik, Glory-Odin level, Galactus-Elder God at his lowest, Starbrand-killed a Beyonder, a single Beyonder killed Eternity.

You were saying?

@conner_wolf: I have to go so you win.

@buttersdaman000: okay lets go through this one more timen

In the master roshi vs goku fight master roshi had to stop goku from killing everyone by blowing up the moon, do you agree that the blast reach the moon in a fee seconds.

I did not delete anything nor do I see any deleted comments. And no, I do not concede. I think what most of the guys who argue with me don't understand is I actually love DBZ. Always have. I own all the manga and the anime. Read and watched hundreds of times. It's just a lot of what some people say they can do is never shown in concrete fashion. It isn't as certain as some would believe it to be.

Just because I love DBZ doesn't mean I need them to be more powerful than what is shown.

Fanboys too scared to admit the truth.

Beata

@jloneblackheart: i wasn't trying to imply that you deleted it.

We'll start from the beginning. You agree that piccolo's blast reached the moon in seconds right?

@the_man_with_questions: i don't think we've met...

@midnightdragon18: Not really. Piccolo blew up the moon in an undetermined amount of seconds. Could have been one. Could have been ten. All we have to go by is panels.

But let's say that it was, say 3 seconds like you said earlier. That's still over twice as slow as light speed. The next part you base off the fact that Frieza is faster than Piccolo, so his attacks must be faster as well. Without power scaling calculations, how much faster? See, now we are just speculating. But that leads me to:

I do not believe at all that power levels are linear increases in all stats. I do not believe that two people at the same power level have the same stats, especially if they are of a different race. I don't necessarily believe that a speed increase would have the same increase for the speed of the attack.

Too many variables and no real concrete evidence.

There are MANY FTL feats that are given throughout Dragon Ball to Dragon Ball Z but no matter what since DB isn`t a comic it will be considered to be below it in authentication.

@jloneblackheart: there was no speculation. Raditz was able to piccolo's fastest move, the special beam cannon. Piccolo couldn't react to Frieza's death beam. That tells you either piccolo after his speed boost is slower than raditz and raditz is just as fast as ssj goku....or Frieza's blast was vastly faster that piccolo's,which reached the moon in a few seconds. The author doesn't need say " and then the blast hit dende at ftl speed" it was obviously his intention for the death Beam to be fast.

Well I'm ultra cereal that's it's FTL

The Solar Flare was unexpected by most users. It's an unexpected attack and different, just like the Destructo Disc. The only times I remeber when it was used was when Tien used it against Goku (which he dodged), Cell against Krillin and others (It was unexpected and he didn't know if Cell was going/able to use it), and Baby (Unexpected). The fact that when Goku was full aware of the attack and dodged it means that when not blindsided, he's faster than light.

Plus, Goku is seen dodging lasers which are fast as light.

Also, if you wanna bring non canon, Gohan and Goten shot a Kamehameha into the sun in seconds. I know that it's not accounted, but it shows that they can. Even against Cooler, Goku can shoot fast beams.

Although, you do make a good case. You're starting to make sense and change my ideas about this, but with the video and power scaling, you can see that it's FTL.

@midnightdragon18: You say it's not speculation, but then speculate the special beam cannon is faster than light? Even if it was faster than light, could it be that Raditz is simply faster than Piccolo? I mean, he outclassed Goku and Piccolo in every way. So was Raditz dodging a faster than light projectile, or the slow movements of Piccolo's hand from his forehead to aim an attack that took forever to charge?

@jloneblackheart: raditz? Powerlevel under 3000....faster than piccolo's post fusion powerlevel over a million? That's highly unlikely. I never said spc was ftl, i said it was piccolo's fastest attack.

@midnightdragon18: We haven't.

@jloneblackheart: Raditz looked the blast down in point plank range. He didn't aim dodge in the slightest.

I don't agree with your method for determining the speed of ki blast. I honestly think ki blast are the equivalent of laser and energy blast from comic universes. If we measured them on a real world scale a lot of of characters would be FTL, so why measure ki any differently when it's essentially just destructive energy shot from the hand?

Does that line of thinking prevent DBZ characters from reaching light speed+? No, absolutely not. As I said to a another user, I do think they reached that speed, but I can't prove it....at least on the level that I can prove certain comic characters move at the speed of light.

But, anyways, take it as you will. I'm not trying to lowball DBZ at all, never have.

Well i'm mega cereal that you're wrong lol

Even if the solar flare was unexpected by most users, at what point to we draw the line? For example, if you argue that Frieza's blast on namek was FTL, as users are trying to argue for that scan, just know that super namekian Piccolo, who was fully aware of what was happening, was unable to dodge a solar flare attack from Cell. And also realize that the solar flare was used effectively all the way up to semi-perfect/perfect cell as well. And on that note, if someone is arguing that kid goku could dodge a light speed attack, why would massively faster characters ever be caught by a light speed attack in the midst of battle???????

Batman dodges lasers lol

When did I bring non-canon? But again, I personally will never argue for the validity of energy/laser beam speed in comics since dodging them is such a trope. For example, I could pull up a scan of superman reacting to multiple mirror reflected laser beams from a very close distance. I could argue his speed to be MFTL (which, IRL it would have to be), but I won't because said beams are a common trope.

Power scaling is faulty logic as well. A lot of people don't realize but even within DBZ, power doesn't scale linearly, especially with physical attributes.

Whether ftl or not, he clearly dodged the projectile. Not the aim of piccolo's hand.

He was still in place after the attack was fired.

@buttersdaman000: my method is just common sense, the writer obviously intended three things

A- a ki blast can reach the moon in seconds

B- The blast that raditz dodged was faster than A

C- Frieza's death beam was faster than both

@buttersdaman000: also could you provide an example where ki didn't correlate with physical stats linear

A. You can't judge time based on panel flow. How do you know AT didn't intend 5, 10, 15, or 20 seconds?

B. Once you realize that an argument based on A is faulty, any rationale following that logic is also faulty.

C. Refer to B.

Hell, here's the next page. If anything, it seems that the moon wasn't actually destroyed until the top panel.

Goku vs Ginyu.

Goku, before Kaio-Ken, had a lower PL than Ginyu by at least 30,000+ yet he was faster.

Also, there's the obvious Steroid Trunks vs Cell. He had a higher PL and increased strength, yet his speed actually suffered.

All of those "steroid trunks" and goku before kaio-ken has already gotten debunked.

Both the manga and the guidebook has explained why Super Saiya-jin Grade 3 makes you lose speed.

You people are literrally behind the times.

Super Saiya-jin 1 2 and 3 aswell as Super Saiya-jin Grade 2 are the only forms that doesn't decrease speed, however the Super Saiya-jin Grade 3 was a forced up power.

And then you have the spanish guidebook aswell as the japanese one aka Daizenshuu telling clearly to the readers that owns the guidebooks that it slows your speed. Aka kills it.

This is what the spanis guide book says:

Trunks adquire una fuerza diez veces superior, pero su capacidad

De movimento es más limitada.

Trunks acquires a force ten times, but their ability

Of movement is more limited.

Also to point out the Daizenshuu which herms from kanzenshuu translated:

• • • Also vegeta explained perfectly why goku's supressed battle power didn't get hurt.
    • Goku can change his battle power in that "single instant", hence battle power's couldn't detect goku's fast heavy blow against recoome, aswell as them still cant believe that his ki was lower, it was merely due to him hiding his power, and being too fast for them to sense that ki.

• • • Also just incase you already didn't know or if you didn't even read the manga nor analyse the manga at all and just went all biased.
    • Here are some explanations regarding ki what it does:
    • Also one thing to note: Vegeta's Ki surpassed goku's Ki, when goku used Kaio-Ken x2
    • Hence Ki = Speed/Power

• • • Also just to debunk the myth "Battle power's are useless" No it isn't akira toriyama never said that.
    • This is what akira toriyama actually said:

• • Basically people were lying all the time, and being a huge double standard, with no backup to their claims.
  • Have a nice day.

And also this thread, "why isn't this considered a ftl feat".

Here are some more stuff in relation to the combat speed of DB:

This is what it says:

#1 Scan.

"Lethal Technique" Bakuretsu makoho.

On a similar manner to the kamehame-ha, this lethal technique allows to shoot a beam of light from the hands.

This technique is so terribly powerful that it could even erase a city off the map with one attack.

"Lethal Technique" Kaikosen with the eyes.

Allows to shoot light beams from both eyes. It has more accuracy, but less destructive power.

No worries there are more to come!

Freeza:

“this beam of light emitted from his fingers was so fast that no one could see him.

Goku outrightly says that his combat speed is greater aswell. Aswell as the fact that Taiyou-ken emit's light energy out. That in itself debunks the downplay. Since that would technically mean that it goes at light speed. Ontop of that as i previously mentioned goku says that his combat speed is greater.

Also Toei's official homepage's summary describes their attacks as this:

Feats ftl:

monkey:

大猿は岩山を崩し、口から光線を吐いて辺りを破壊しまくる。

The Great Ape demolishes rocky mountains, and keeps destroying his surroundings by spitting out light beam from his mouth.

nappa

激怒してクリリンに光弾を撃つナッパの背後から、意識を取り戻したピッコロが攻撃を放った。

As the enraged Nappa shot bullet

of light? at Krillin, Piccolo released an attack from behind after regaining consciousness.

piccolo

ピッコロはとっさに悟飯をかばって、光弾にその身をさらすのだった。

Piccolo shielded Gohan immediately, exposing himself to the

bullet of light

nappa:

怒りと悔しさにまみれたナッパは光弾を放つが、悟空は気合で跳ね返し、傷つけることもできなかった。

体中から光を発して猛攻撃を開始したナッパは、空中で必殺技を放つ。

Stained in anger and frustration, Nappa released an bullet of light, but Gohan deflected it through his will and was not even injured.

With light glowing from within his body and started a series of fierce attack, Nappa released his killing move in the air.

vegeta:

ベジータはナッパの手を取ると空中高く放り投げ、動けないサイヤ人は不要だと光弾を放ってとどめを刺した。

Vegeta took Nappa's hand and threw him high into the air, saying he did not need Saiyans that do not move as he finished him off with an bullet of light.

http://www.toei-anim.co.jp/tv/dragon_kai_2009/episode/list/

@buttersdaman000: 1.I'll lowball and say that it took a minute for the blast to reach the moon, the gap between raditz and ssj goku is over 100x.

2. I already explained to you in another thread that the ginyu force members aren't naturally strong, they were genetically modified. Ultra saiyan is a form that sacrifices speed for power. Could you provide another example?

@midnightdragon18:

1. That's irrelevant to the conversation though man. I'm simply arguing against your logic in reaching your conclusion. But, for the record, I do believe that ki blast are the equivalent of energy/laser blast in comics. For example, IIRC, Iron Mans repulsor beans have been stated to move at light speed multiple times yet we don't argue that every character who dodges said beams is FTL.

2. Doesn't matter. I'm talking about PL in relation to physical attributes only. It doesn't matter if they were genetically modified since they still had readable power levels.

@blade_r: and even then it's discredited. CoughBROLYGALAXYcoughcough

It took beerus TWO MINUTES to travel to a different Galaxy in episode 2 of dbs. And no he did not use who's because whis was already at the planet. Our galaxy is thousands of light years wide. Beerus traveled a greater distance in only a couple of minutes. That is much faster than light.

@buttersdaman000: 1.ok,my logic was it took piccolo's blast seconds to reach the moon, but I'll lowball it to a minute for you, the speed gap between raditz and ssj goku is easily over 100x

2. What was goku's power level in that fight

What was goku's, scans please.

1. The fact that you're arbitrarily picking time intervals for the blast to seemingly prove your point ironically proves the point I was trying to make from the beginning. And I already addressed my stance on Ki blast in my post right before this.

2. His PL was below 90,000 since Ginyu's scouter didn't register as much until Goku started his Kaio-Ken.

This is really all you need. Note that Goku's aura is white so he clearly isn't in Kaio-Ken mode. His power level without Kaio-Ken was 90,000 at most, whereas Ginyu was at 120,000 yet he still claims that Goku's body is faster. On top of this, we later find out that Ginyu was only capable of achieving a PL of 23,000 in Goku's body so it's perfectly logical to infer that Goku at 23,000 is faster than Ginyu at 120,000, but admittedly, that's a stretch.

@buttersdaman000: Ginyu said his pl was 120,000 on his best day, it's not 120,000 all the time. Again what was goku's pl during the fight and what was ginyu's.@buttersdaman000: i agree that there is no exact time frame given, but it should be reasonable that it only took a few seconds given that context and panels.

No, Jeice said that Ginyu's PL clocks in at 120,000 and then we see him powering up. Goku overtakes him in speed, Jeice interferes, and Ginyu gets him in a clinch showing superior strength. Ginny lets him go and claims that Goku still isn't using his full power and clocks him at 85000. This implies that Ginyu is at least above that at the time. But, as we see Goku power up with the Kaio-Ken, Ginyu doesn't get scared until Goku passes 110,000/120,000 which implies in further that Ginyu was fighting closer to his max. And I just told you what Goku's PL was.

Panel flow is not a valid indicator of time and any argument based solely upon that is flawed.

@buttersdaman000: scans

@buttersdaman000: are you just going to ignore the fact the ginyu force members were genetically modified and don't get there strength naturally.

Ultra saiyan sacrifices speed for power.

@midnightdragon18:

Jesus...being genetically modified or not means nothing. Do you realize that Cell was a genetically modified creature yet grew more powerful as his power level increased?? All that matters is that they had power levels and in the case of Goku vs Ginyu, said power levels were not completely reflective of their respective physical attributes.

And the fact that the Ultra form sacrifice speed for power is completely irrelevant! It's only proof that physical attributes do not reflect power level as linearly as some people try to argue. It's simple -- his power level was higher than Cell, yet he was much slower. The nature of his form is, again, irrelevant.

I'll probably post the scans later. I'm on my phone right now. But you're welcome to just look them up for yourself.

@buttersdaman000: honestly your argument is devoid of any common sense or reasoning, you keep saying we can't gauge time through panel flow, but unless the panel said piccolo took a minute to destroy the moon , we have no reason to doubt he destroyed the moon in a few seconds given the amount of panels and the context . Please don't tag me again, i won't respond.

@midnightdragon18:

You just destroyed your original argument a few post ago, and now that you find yourself failing at this second one, you jump back to the original, contradict yourself and attempt to insult MY reasoning. Classic. But it's fine lol i dont need you to change your mind for me to be right. We'll just agree to disagree.

@buttersdaman000: This is me reading your posts :9. That was a cool debate.

Depends if you consider the speed of Piccolos moon busting an outlier or not.

@buttersdaman000: I thought ginyu was under the placebo effect