Why isn't this considered a FTL feat ?

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Heinrich7

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#51  Edited By Heinrich7

@dbvse7: I will admit, it is odd to see the anti anime crowd come out and diss on Dragon Ball but even I can say that the flawless planet busting(Like destroying a planet with the tip of your fingernail) is a pretty mind blowing feat. I just don't think it can be argued that DB Universe characters are a push over. I just don't see the reasoning.

I love both Comics Cartoons Manga and Anime, they all have their respective places in storytelling and character development but people really got to put their bias away when it comes to a characters prowess.

Goku and Beerus are really darn powerful.

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midnightdragon18

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@buttersdaman000: Then i guess flash isn't ftl either since he got tagged by deathstroke? i still don't you're getting it. If piccolo's blast reach the moon is at most 3 seconds, and if frieza's blast is vastly faster than piccolo's, then why isn't frieza's ftl ? are you going to to tell me that frieza's blast was somehow faster than piccolo's...even though piccolo( who was much faster than he was on earth) couldn't even react to it?

Flash not FTL confirmed.

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buttersdaman000

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#53  Edited By buttersdaman000

@midnightdragon18:

That's completely different. You're trying to measure an inconsistent low feat against consistent proof of Fladh being light speed/FTL.

I'm debating the validity of one barely quantifiable, supposedly light speed ki blast against the vast majority of ki blast thst don't even come close to comparing.

I'm telling you that Picollos feat is clearly an outlier by your own method of proof. Like I said, you can't tell me to ONLY measure the time interval for Piccolos blast and ignore the other blast that don't measure up. And you ignored the fact that a stronger piccolo was still unable to avoid a light speed attack in the cell saga.

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midnightdragon18

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@buttersdaman000: i guess master roshi's blast reach the moon in seconds was pis too? piccolo's blast pis ? vegeta's final flash reach deep space in seconds ? And flash got tag by deathstroke. you're gonna need a better argument than pis.

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buttersdaman000

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@midnightdragon18:

Madter Roshin and Vegetas blast all reached their destinations in more than a few panels, so I don't know why you brought them up

And re read what I wrote concerning deathstroke and how it compares to what you're trying to argue

Also, again, Piccolo failed to dodge a light speed attack even though he knew it was coming in the cell saga

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midnightdragon18

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#56  Edited By midnightdragon18
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@buttersdaman000: one panel, i don't know why you keep saying ki blast are inconsistent. you keep saying the same thing, but flash got tagged by deathstroke and batman.

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makhai

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It doesn't say it's FTL anywhere.

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PreCrisisBardock

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Meanwhile, Sublight feats it part 1.....

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buttersdaman000

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@buttersdaman000: one panel, i don't know why you keep saying ki blast are inconsistent. you keep saying the same thing, but flash got tagged by deathstroke and batman.

Ummm no you missed some pages actually

I'm not saying ki blast are inconsistent, i'm saying your logic to determine the speed of these blast is inconsistent and faulty.

I already addressed the flaw in your logic concerning Flash and you haven't done anything to argue against it.

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midnightdragon18

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@midnightdragon18:

That's completely different. You're trying to measure an inconsistent low feat against consistent proof of Fladh being light speed/FTL.

I'm debating the validity of one barely quantifiable, supposedly light speed ki blast against the vast majority of ki blast thst don't even come close to comparing.

I'm telling you that Picollos feat is clearly an outlier by your own method of proof. Like I said, you can't tell me to ONLY measure the time interval for Piccolos blast and ignore the other blast that don't measure up. And you ignored the fact that a stronger piccolo was still unable to avoid a light speed attack in the cell saga.

you just said it was inconsistent.

okay, lets go step by step

how long do you think it took for piccolo's blast to reach the moon ?

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makhai

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how long do you think it took for piccolo's blast to reach the moon ?

The better question is: How fast can you prove it went?

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buttersdaman000

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@buttersdaman000 said:

@midnightdragon18:

That's completely different. You're trying to measure an inconsistent low feat against consistent proof of Fladh being light speed/FTL.

I'm debating the validity of one barely quantifiable, supposedly light speed ki blast against the vast majority of ki blast thst don't even come close to comparing.

I'm telling you that Picollos feat is clearly an outlier by your own method of proof. Like I said, you can't tell me to ONLY measure the time interval for Piccolos blast and ignore the other blast that don't measure up. And you ignored the fact that a stronger piccolo was still unable to avoid a light speed attack in the cell saga.

you just said it was inconsistent.

okay, lets go step by step

how long do you think it took for piccolo's blast to reach the moon ?

No, not once did I say Ki blast were inconsistent. From the beginning I maintained that the your method for determining the speed is faulty and is what actually leads to the moon feat being inconsistent and an outlier.

Doesn't matter. At best it's unquantifiable and at worst it's quantifiable and you open yourself up to hundreds of inconsistencies.

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midnightdragon18

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Loading Video...

@makhai: less than 3 seconds

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midnightdragon18

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#64  Edited By midnightdragon18

@buttersdaman000: ? it reach the moon in seconds. i ask you again, how long do you think it took to reach the moon?

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makhai

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midnightdragon18

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@makhai: scans were already posted from the manga... less than 3 seconds

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makhai

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#67  Edited By makhai

@midnightdragon18 said:

@makhai: scans were already posted from the manga... less than 3 seconds

I saw no quoted time lapse or mentions of FTL in those scans though.

Also, 3 seconds ago there was no post.

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midnightdragon18

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@makhai: all it takes is common sense, piccolo fired his blast, then next panel the moon was gone. piccolo needed a FAST way to destroy the moon to stop gohan. In the animated version it takes less than 3 seconds for the blast to reach the moon.

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makhai

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@makhai: all it takes is common sense, piccolo fired his blast, then next panel the moon was gone. piccolo needed a FAST way to destroy the moon to stop gohan. In the animated version it takes less than 3 seconds for the blast to reach the moon.

Seems more like you are just trying to mislead by charging scans with your own interpretation of events. The animated version is deeply flawed. I have no reason to accept it over the manga.

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buttersdaman000

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#70  Edited By buttersdaman000

@buttersdaman000: ? it reach the moon in seconds. i ask you again, how long do you think it took to reach the moon?

And i'll tell you again, it doesn't matter -- unquantifiable at best, outlier and inconsistent at worst.

I'll just take a random page from a random chapter, here:

No Caption Provided

How fast are these ki blast moving? Well, it took two panels for them to not even move a fraction of the distance between the earth and the moon. By your logic, a panel roughly translates to 1-3 seconds, so lets say these blast traveled that distance in about 5 seconds? Does Piccolo just have REALLY fast ki then??

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midnightdragon18

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I'm done, common sense and reasoning gets thrown out the wondow when debating dbz.

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frogdog

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Spider-man dodged more lazers than Goku and punched the lightmaster, therefore Spider-man is MFTL

Spider-man>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Superman>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Batkick>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Goku

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midnightdragon18

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The_Man_With_Questions

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Why do people even take what Midnight says seriously?

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JuzaCloud

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#75  Edited By JuzaCloud

Piccolo's Ki blast was light speed. And that wasn't even special beam cannon which is much faster.

The haters know its lightspeed, but they have a hypocritical crutch to lean on with "time frame" "it doesn't say its light". People are hypocrites and if you keep up with their post you'll see that. If it said it was light speed, then they will say "statements don't count". You have people in here who know better, but are asking for forbidden comicvine "statements".

It's a neverending loophole in the dimension of hypocrites. All because in the back of their mind, whoever their favorite character is possibly gets squished. This happens with all characters, mainly DBZ and we know why.

If freeza death beam isn't light speed, then that means Namek Saga Piccolo, Gohan, vegeta, Goku, Ginyu Force and 100% freeza all can't dodge madara "Light Fang"

Therefore Naruto>>>>>SSJ Goku and 100% Freeza

Dumb comicvine logic.

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Brad_Dad

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Comic book characters do things all the time that as described would be faster than the speed of light in the real world, but they're slower than the speed of light in the comic book world?

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Imperfect_Cell

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@imperfect_cell said:

Anyway, I think it's stupid to not consider it FTL. Even if you want to ignore the evidence that points to Ki attacks being FTL way before Freeza, Piccolo's line was in there for a reason. The intentions are clear.

I agree.

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buttersdaman000

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@juzacloud:

Why do we count ki blast as light speed but not energy blast? And for the record, if anyone can prove that the blast was light speed using a method that doesn't invalidate every subsequent ki blast, I'll eat my words. But as far as I know, the speed of ki blast is as unquantifiable/inconsequential as lasers.

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Imperfect_Cell

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#79  Edited By Imperfect_Cell
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JuzaCloud

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@juzacloud:

Why do we count ki blast as light speed but not energy blast? And for the record, if anyone can prove that the blast was light speed using a method that doesn't invalidate every subsequent ki blast, I'll eat my words. But as far as I know, the speed of ki blast is as unquantifiable/inconsequential as lasers.

Tell me who "we" is, because I'm sure I'm not apart of that group. And you're basing your idiotic logic off of a barrage of Ki blast that shows the projection of some of them before they hit it's target?

Freeza death beam is MFTL.

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buttersdaman000

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@juzacloud: wow your jimmies are easily rustled lol

And you didn't answer my question.

No I'm basing my logic off the fact that determining the speed of Piccolos blast off of the panel flow is faulty reasoning and therefore any conclusion based off that is also faulty reasoning. So, if you want, go through this thread and try to answer the simple retorts that midnight chose to ignore. Until then, like I've told you before, stop playing the victim. Your previous post reeks of it.

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Imperfect_Cell

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@buttersdaman000:

Also, which one is more official?

Neither really. There's different translations, but neither of the ones shown here were fan made.

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buttersdaman000

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@imperfect_cell: that's what I thought. So how do we determine which phrase to place our stock in?

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Imperfect_Cell

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@imperfect_cell: that's what I thought. So how do we determine which phrase to place our stock in?

I have the most recent translation in my IRL collection and it states:

I....didn't even....see it! It looked... like there was a flash of light ... and...

But the most recent translation isn't always the most accurate. There is certain changes made in certain versions to make it appeal to younger folks, which is what my comic store sold, so it's what I have. I for one opt for the more recent translation, however.

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buttersdaman000

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#85  Edited By buttersdaman000

@buttersdaman000 said:

@imperfect_cell: that's what I thought. So how do we determine which phrase to place our stock in?

I have the most recent translation in my IRL collection and it states:

I....didn't even....see it! It looked... like there was a flash of light ... and...

But the most recent translation isn't always the most accurate. There is certain changes made in certain versions to make it appeal to younger folks, which is what my comic store sold, so it's what I have. I for one opt for the more recent translation, however.

Fair enough

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conner_wolf

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@imperfect_cell: Oh come on, you can even time Piccolo's attack and it takes 33 seconds, it's not FTL during the Saiyan Saga. Goku's blast when he fought Cooler however you can prove was FTL by timing it, but it's not that massively FTL.

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Imperfect_Cell

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@conner_wolf said:

@imperfect_cell: Oh come on, you can even time Piccolo's attack and it takes 33 seconds, it's not FTL during the Saiyan Saga. Goku's blast when he fought Cooler however you can prove was FTL by timing it, but it's not that massively FTL.

I'll be honest I have no idea what we're talking about.

Piccolo's blast takes 33 seconds? Or did your 3 key just stick? 3 seconds would mean it's over 2x slower than light-speed, no? I just think it's pretty obvious Piccolo's blast was meant to be pretty quick, though any specific amount of time is pure speculation. By the time Vegeta rolls around there should probably be light-speed Ki blasts flying.

I never said Goku's blast was MFTL, I don't think.

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conner_wolf

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@imperfect_cell: It does indeed take 33 seconds to see the effects on the moon. My 3 key did not stick.

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Keenko

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I do think DBZ characters get overrated in fights but I don't see how the notion that alot of them have FTL reflexes is unbelievable.

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Imperfect_Cell

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#90  Edited By Imperfect_Cell

@conner_wolf: That wasn't the time it took for the blast to reach it tho, right?

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conner_wolf

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@imperfect_cell: That is how long it takes for the blast to reach the moon, after 33 seconds we see the moon start to glow.

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ArticulateT

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#92  Edited By ArticulateT

I'd say that it's down to several factors, really.

Mainly, it's an art choice. Frieza's blast might seem slower because more panels have been interjected to make the scenario more impacting. The time it took from Attacker to Target is unknown, somewhat, as the blast needs to travel passed the supposed targets and to get their reactions. It's a really well drawn scene in which the blast is fired, and it goes down the line, intentionally missing each expected target and hitting Dende, allowing the shock of the situation to sink in.

Meanwhile, Piccolo destroying the moon isn't as exciting as one might expect. Not only is the moon appearing a lot closer than it should be to earth (That might also be an art decision, but seriously, look outside your window and see how small the moon is, and then compare it to how big it is when Piccolo destroys it. Either it's super close, or DBZ Earth's moon is enormous. Also, yes, this is nitpicking.) it's also a notably large target, and while it's never truly immobile, general gist is that it can't wilfully dodge and therefore, isn't that difficult to hit. Extra panels showing the beam travelling wastes time and paper, so the page only contains three panels to show what's happened.

Mainly, this tells us that the time between panels is not standardised, but we all knew this from the beginning. Also, it can be said that, potentially, a lot of feats and moments in DBZ could be attributed to art style and theme (but let's not open that can of worms.)

One other thing to consider is that you needn't be travelling at light speed to be undetected by the human eye. While you're not truly invisible until you move beyond light speed, simply being unseen requires much less speed to accomplish. Humans generally perceive the world at 1/24th of a second. If you're capable of moving faster than that, then you're likely to be unseen in the general human sense. DBZ made a big deal about it, with Piccollo explaining to Gohan that he needs to 'See with Ki' since traditional sight was useless while viewing the fight between Yamcha and the Saibaman. The Android Saga had a big impact here too, and it was one of the bigger advantages the Z Fighters had over Frieza, being that Frieza couldn't sense Ki. I would argue that, if this was well and truly the case, certain, major segments of the manga should have been wildly different, but, eh, not up to doing that right now.

Building on the previous point, Frieza and the Androids taking the group by surprise also builds on this Ki Sense thing. Since Frieza's power was entirely inborn, and the Androids didn't have Ki to manipulate, it's possible that their energy blasts were not made from Ki, and as such, they couldn't be sensed when fired. It's also possible that Ki Sensing doesn't just track Ki but simply amplifies your senses to the level of keeping up with everything else, but it would offer an explanation as to why the Z Fighters were unable to perceive an energy blast that was sub light-speed.

Make of that what you will, just thought I'd share my two-cents. If you'll excuse me, I'm going to go and grab some pain killers, as I feel that threads like these, no matter how well intentioned or written, will inevitably end badly.

Edit: Going back to the human perception thing, it DOES depend on the distance you are from the thing you're trying to see, and how big it is, but the rule still generally applies.

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Imperfect_Cell

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@imperfect_cell: That is how long it takes for the blast to reach the moon, after 33 seconds we see the moon start to glow.

Okay, but I don't see why that matters. The anime is weird and the fact that it took so long was probably filler. I was speaking in terms of the manga. I think it's clear that the blast was meant to be quick, but any specific amount of time is speculation. It's probably relativistic.

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conner_wolf

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@imperfect_cell: Meant to is an assumption in itself, you can't fully know the speed it was meant to have, you have to go off of the anime.

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Ryokuma100

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@buttersdaman000: You cereal? The scan has Piccolo's hand out and the blast coming out. If there was no anime, it would still be FTL.

It takes moonlight 1.30 seconds to reach earth, it took Piccolo one second. It's FTL.

Things in scans are shown slower because they are so fast. In your scan with Gohan, it should be faster than light. He was obviously giving Frieza a barrage that he couldn't dodge. They can have fights in less than a second as proven by Roshi and Krillin.

Tien's Solar Flare is light, so why would ki blasts get slower? It's obvious for showing purposes if you think it wasn't FTL.

Basically, it's just for showing purposes bro. The anime just wanted to give you a showing of the blast and the moon itself. If the manga shows Piccolo shooting it in one scan and it instantly gets destroyed, it's FTL. You just have to go along with the story.

It wouldn't make any sense if it wasn't. DBZ characters aren't that slow.

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Imperfect_Cell

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@imperfect_cell: Meant to is an assumption in itself, you can't fully know the speed it was meant to have, you have to go off of the anime.

Well it obviously wasn't supposed to be slow. Sometimes assumptions are needed. There's nothing to say how fast it was, but it's clear faster than, like, lightning. Even if there wasn't a statement itself saying that, it's just logical to assume so.

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MasterKungFu

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I consider it as one.........

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wbr17

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because it isn't

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conner_wolf

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@imperfect_cell: It moved at 3% the speed of light, I'd say it's pretty impressive man. 3x the speed of lightning which is 1% of the speed of light.

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Imperfect_Cell

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@imperfect_cell: It moved at 3% the speed of light, I'd say it's pretty impressive man. 3x the speed of lightning which is 1% of the speed of light.

Boo you and your calcs, which you're basing off of filler.

Still faster than Thor.