I was wondering why people say dragon ball gt is non canon. I think it should be counted as canon (slight db bias).

the only things considered canon in the DB universe are things that Akira Toriyama wrote....everything else like the movies and GT are considered noncanon

Some movies such as Fusion Reborn or Battle of the Gods are canon, however.

why Fusion Reborn?

Too many plot holes, and Toriyama wasn't directly involved with it in the manner of DB, DBZ, and BoG.

I say this because this is where Gogeta first debuts, and after the movie we see Gogeta in the anime.

Because GT contradicts the original manga.

Yes

in GT which isn't canon...I suppose we could say that it's canon because of the fusion dance

I really only ever considered Bojack to be canon because it has the least amount of contradictions and can easily fit into a time period of the show....then there's Battle of the Gods which there's no disputing that it's canon

Because a lot of fans didn't like it lol

Somebody correct me if I am wrong but didn't Akira Toriyama himself draw this? ^

1. Isnt part of the Manga

2. Toriyama did had to do with it, but still he doesnt count it.

3. Canon Discontinuity, Battle of the Gods and other things show you it didnt happened.

It technically IS canon, as Toriyama not only approved of its creation, but he actually DID take a minor role in it's development.

People just say it's non-canon because they don't like it.

Which is fine with me, because most of the time (or should I say, back in the day) the OP used to specify whether we were allowed to use GT feats when using them in battles.

So really it just comes down to whether you as an individual consider it canon or non-canon, for your own personal categorization.

Jmarshmallow

So I guess we can call Fusion Reborn semi-canon.

The OVA's and specials (e.g.Bardock, Father of Goku, Yo! Son Goku and His Friends Return) are canon as well.

I think Cooler's Revenge can also fit in the timeline without plot holes as well.

Personally I think it should be because if we look at western comics they change writers all the time ( i mean look at superman the original writers got screwed out the ass by dc comics and pretty much had nothing to do with most of the story but its still considered canon).

@mysticmedivh: Fusion reborn is not canon. At all.

Beata

This was something I mentioned in an old thread I made. The original creators of Superman, Wonder Woman, and Batman are all dead, but plenty of stories involving them (that were written by other people) are still considered canon.

Tv Tropes about Canon Discontinuity.

Pilaf and his crew be children again as a result of a poorly worded wish on the Dragon Balls. Akira Toriyama himself has called GT a "wonderful side story", which is a polite way of saying it didn't happen. This was long before Battle of Godswas even imagined.

Not only this Dragon Ball Online also shows GT didnt happened.

And yes Toriyama called GT a side story.

GT isnt canon anymore.

If you are able, along with me, to enjoy watching the original Dragon Ball's grand side-story Dragon Ball GT, you will be pleased.

Toriyama said this.

Entirely different situations

Technically its not canon but I like to think it is. Still my least favorite Dragon ball series.

@dagmar_merrill:

How is it a different situation?

Canon means it's either from the original manga, or if it isn't, it has to be stated by the original creator himself/current owner "this is canon", which is something Toriyama did for Battle of Gods, but NOT for GT because although he oversaw the production, he doesn't really like it that much. The DB/Z movies aren't canon either (exception of BoG).

On the other hand, something like Dragon Ball Online has its OWN canon, so it's a separate thing while still being "legit".

I still think the whole "canon/non-canon" thing is annoying to hear though.

@dagmar_merrill: Do you plan on explaining how?

@blade_r: he didn't design ssj4 if that's where you're gettin that that was only an attempt to draw it as a gift to those who bought the dragon box set years after gt ended in that same set he basically states he didn't design it and gt is a side story

Anyways gt has always been non canon because it directly contradicts the manga simple as that and the ridiculous haxes

@jmarshmallow: or maybe because it directly contradicts the manga?

And itself

@zaied: Except that Toriyama had the exact same amount of involvement in GT as he did in BoG and the anime adaptations of DB, and DBZ.

But this topic has been done to death, and I'm really tired of repeating myself.

@jaken7: no he didn't

For gt he only did initial cast designs an come up with te name

For BoG he did designs and rewrote the entire story

@mysticmedivh: As far as Cooler's Revenge goes, take a look at how Gohan looked when Goku returned to Earth and Trunks killed Frieza and King Cold, and then look at how he looked in Cooler's Revenge. There is obviously a continuity error there.

Plus, SSJ Goku struggled really hard against full powered Frieza, but absolutely stomped Cooler who is more powerful and has 1 whole extra transformation than Frieza. One could argue that he was stronger when he fought Cooler because of the Zenkai boost he got from his near-death on Namek, but a Zenkai boost shouldn't account for that much of a power increase.

@jaken7: I don't see why not

Goku got a 33x zenkai on namek after ginyu, and goku is implied to have gotten a zenkai from cooler nearly killing him with the eye beam, and remember movie 5 goku is supposed to be yardrat goku (cooler also states in the original japanese version base/maybe kaioken 10 goku > freeza)

The movie is basically a parallel to goku vs freeza it's painfully obvious to see the similarities between certain movies and certain arcs

And freeza "winning" the fight was seriously only anime

@dbzk1999: How does it contradict the manga?...

Jmarshmallow

@jmarshmallow: in the manga it's established when you die you don't keep you body unless you've earned it basically (piccolo even says that vegeta can't keep his body in the afterlife and vegeta confirms it later) later on in filler and in gt, both freeza and cell have bodies in hell

According to the official wiki:

"Akira Toriyama is credited as author in the ending credits of Dragon Ball GT; he oversaw the series' production, this was the same process that was used during the production of the anime series Dragon Ball and Dragon Ball Z. He drew a rough design for the GT logo, he designed the GT appearance of the series main cast, and he designed the appearances of Giru and the GT spaceship used in the Black Star Dragon Ball Saga. He also drew at least three color pictures of Goku, Pan, and Trunks adventuring on various planets (Monmaasu, Rudeeze, and an area in Hell).

Super Saiyan 4 Goku, drawn by Akira Toriyama

Toriyama seems to have positive feelings towards his works' continuation, as he drew his own version of Super Saiyan 4 Goku (which was originally designed by Katsuyoshi Nakatsuru) exclusively for the Dragon Box GT. Characters and events from GT have also been included in more recent Dragon Ball video games.

Despite these facts, some fans do not consider GT to be an official installment of the series, most often citing that the series was not directly adapted from a Toriyama manga. Like Dragon Ball and Dragon Ball Z, GT contains minor elements inconsistent with prior anime events. However, GT has the fewest inconsistencies of all three anime series, making it difficult to burden the few that exist as a reason for the series to be set aside as unofficial."

I would concede that he probably had more involvement in BoG. But his involvement in DB and Z was parallel to his involvement in GT.

Where was it stated he got a 33x Zenkai boost? And I'm gonna need links for that alleged Cooler quote.

And still, none of that explains the discrepancy with Gohan's character design.

It just doesn't fit very well due to the inconsistencies.

That doesn't really seem like a contradiction...I mean they went to hell for Pete's sake.

Jmarshmallow

@jmarshmallow: that's the point though when you die your spirit is basically cleansed you don't keep your body this especially happens to villains (kid buu is a prime example of how it works, what happened to kid buu is basically what happens to all other villains except with buu it was quicker cuz let's be honest you don't want him in other world

@jaken7: it's basically stated when goku heals after fighting ginyu he goes from being about 90000 to over 2 million possibly reachin 3 million (that's what the Daiz seems to support as well)

Just gonna say movie 5 was released around the time goku and freeza were battling in the anime that's why goku needed rage to access ssj and gohan has his namek design

When I say canon I mean manga canon

http://www.animecauldron.com/dbzuncensored2/series/dbzmov05.html

This is a review by someone who compared both the japanese dub and the English dub of coolers revenge it goes off of basically everything including what was said in certain scenes

Cooler- "Hmph, you do as well as I expected. Enough to have defeated my brother. However, the real hell begins now! Once you witness this hell, I will show you no mercy, no matter how you scream! Not until I've torn you to bits.....One time more."

Goku- "?"

Cooler- "I am able to transform myself 1 more time than my brother."

Goku- "What?"

Cooler- "You should consider this an honor. You will be the first to see my ultimate transformation, and the last!"

Goku- ("Incredible... his ki is even greater than Freeza's!)"

Cooler- "So, shall we begin?"

(dub dialogue)

Cooler- "Well, well, not bad! Rather impressive actually! Frieza! Yes! I can see how he would have trouble with you! My brother was a pest! I would have killed him myself sooner or later! He was always trying to beat me! Trying to prove that he was the best! And he definitely had the edge! Mm! But then it happened. I transformed! As you know, I'm in the 3rd transformation state, but I found a 4th beyond it. First you will see, then you will die!"

Goku- "Whoa, man! He's huge!"

Cooler- "Yes! Time to die."

As you can see that person takes it pretty seriously

In the DBZ anime, the other villains watch Buu and comment on how powerful he is.

So, if anything, GT just kept to that same pattern.

Jmarshmallow

@jmarshmallow: again that's filler only

Aka non canon

It's obviously canon, as it's part of DBZ which is entirely canon. So it may not be canon to the manga, but it's canon to the anime.

Jmarshmallow

@jmarshmallow: yeah I know I said that in a previous post to jake

So? The Ginyu Zenkai boost was probably the most significant, as for all intents and purposes, he pretty much did die. He was out of commission for the entire rest of the saga up until Frieza reached his final transformation. There is no possible way that Goku got the same Zenkai boost after Namek. Goku's offical PL when fighting Frieza as a SSJ was 150 million. If he got the same Zenkai boost (33x as you stated) from Namek, than the SSJ Goku during Cooler's Revenge would have a PL of nearly 5 billion (4,950,000,000 to be exact). He could practically solo the entire rest of the series as a mere SSJ 1 if that were the case.

And again, you still haven't addressed the Gohan issue. Am I meant to believe that directly after Goku arrived back on Earth he got his hair cut like he had it on Namek, and grew his tail back out, only to then cut his tail off again and grow his hair back out identical to how it was when Goku came back to Earth just prior to the arrival of the Androids?

I'm sorry? Where in there does it state that base Goku in Cooler's Revenge was 10x stronger than Frieza?

@jaken7: I didn't say goku was 10x stronger I said kaioken 10x goku was stronger than freeza

Derp

What do you mean I didn't address the issue?

I already told you movie 5 came out while goku and freeza were still fighting

___________________________________________________________

Movie 5

Original Title: "The Incredible Mightiest vs. Mightiest"

Dub Title: Cooler's Revenge

Preceding episode: 99

Original Title: "Shen Long, Run Yourself Through Space!! The Time of Namek's Destruction Draws Near"

Dub Title: Gohan Returns

(Preceding) Manga Volume:

Original Japanese Volume listing: DragonBall, Volume 26

Viz Volume Listing: DragonBall Z, Volume 10

___________________________________________________________

I didn't say goku got a 33x zenkai fighting cooler I said why is it hard to believe goku got a big zenkai when te same thing happened on namek (I'm not saying it's to the same degree)

Cuz it sucked

@dbzk1999: Did you just say that Cooler's Revenge takes place while Goku was fighting Frieza on Namek?

No, it really didn't.

@dbzk1999: Wasn't movie 5 more of a "what if"? It's after the fight with Frieza yet he can't go Super Saiyan at will or use instant transmission.

He actually did use instant transmission though.

@jaken7: what? NO! I'm saying that the time movie 5 was released, goku and freeza were still fighting in the anime look at the release dates

...ok? So what does that have to do with anything that we're discussing? Like what point of yours does that prove? Lol

@jaken7: OMG! You just said "you haven't addressed the gohan issue" that's the reason why gohan looks like that

So you admit that it's a plot hole then? The real life explanation you gave makes sense, as Gohan's design for the Android saga most likely hadn't been completed yet. But as far as in-universe canon goes, it still doesn't make sense.