#1 Posted by Captain13 (3322 posts) - - Show Bio

Let me preface this by saying that I do not hate street level heroes(Batman, Daredevil, Spider-man, etc.). I just do not think that they ever have a good reason for taking the law into their own hands--even if they do have good morals. What they do could (and does) encourage people to put themselves in dangerous situations needlessly. They potentially put others in danger by doing their work, And they embarrass the city police force, which probably increases crime rates. And police corruption is not a good enough reason for a continuing superhero career. Just expose that corruption and let the feds clean up. Also, there's no way the government/police/coast guard/cia/fbi/nsa would allow a vigilante to operate. And if a hero has no powers or low level powers, the government should be able to handle them eventually.

On the other hand, global/galactic level heroes (Superman, Green Lantern, Flash, Cyborg) only need to operate when there is a threat that government weapons cannot handle. They do what the government can't even with great effort.

There are some exceptions though. I'm okay with government sanctioned street level heroes (Captain America, many of the Avengers, etc.). I'm okay with royal characters who operate with their kingdoms (Black Panther, Thor [not street level, I know], Aquaman [not street level, i know], etc.). And I'm okay with street levels heroes with magical mythologies (Iron Fist) or some other non-law-breaking reason to operate (Misty Knight and Colleen Wing, the bail bondsmen).

I guess what I'm saying is:

1) I do not care for law-breaking vigilantes. I do not think they ever have a good reason for long-term operation--even if that does lead to great stories.

2) I like heroes with high power levels.

What are your preferences?

#2 Posted by Bluefox170 (382 posts) - - Show Bio

Deathstrokes my favorite and he could be considered street level, though that plays right into his expertise since he's a killer for hire. I also like punisher and green arrow which they just personify everything you don't like xD I guess I just prefer street level over global/galactic because of the relatibility. However I wouldn't mind giving a good galactic book a shot that caught my eye. Might give guardians of the galaxy a shot this week.

#3 Posted by lightsout (1827 posts) - - Show Bio

Oooo, I never looked at it this way before (I came in expecting something else all-together). In the realm of comics, I am fine with both if they have good morals - because unlike real life where morals can be subjective, in a comic you can simply say "Batman/Superman/whoever won't do something evil" and it is fact. In the OP case, I would almost think the galactic-level guys would NEED to be under government order, because I know ones like Superman wouldn't be able to hold themselves back and only pursue "human's can't handle" threats (he'd want to stop bank robbers and stuff of that level too).

I also prefer "highly powered" heroes, but because it's even more fantastic/more-of-an-escape for me. I like heroes because I like to imagine myself being one, and I would want to be powerful so that I would have less to fear (rather than a regular human who's just VERY skilled. Superman doesn't have to be on high alert when dealing with bank robbers or the sort). The street-levels I particularly like (Batman, Spiderman, Wolverine), I do because of their characterization/personalities. Otherwise, I find myself more attracted to powerful characters (they can be more minor characters who aren't as "interesting", but I'll like them b/c they're powerful (like Sentry, etc)).

#4 Posted by The_Tree (7294 posts) - - Show Bio

I think I gravitate to more of the street level characters. It's more of a subconscious decision, rather than me actively seeking out street level heroes. I don't really care about what level their powers are or the level they operate at, if I think a character is interesting, I'll read books with them in it.

#5 Posted by Rumble Man (11119 posts) - - Show Bio

I like em because they are more out of touch with humanity

#6 Posted by Timandm (3374 posts) - - Show Bio

you're making the assumption that all street level vigilantes that are not sanctioned by the government, are breaking the law.   That is simply not the case....
 
In the U.S., there is absolutely NO LAW AGAINST wearing a mask, and stopping crime.  It is absolutely NOT AGAINST THE LAW.   Any citizen of the U.S. can, by law, make a citizens arrest.  Furthermore, there is absolutely no law against a citizen of the U.S. wearing a costume or a mask.  So, to simply say all street level vigilantes are breaking the law isn't at all accurate.
 
Now, someone like the Punisher is obviously breaking the law, but he is not a super hero.  Rather, he is an anti-hero.  Batman, Daredevil, and Spider-man are all operating well within the law.   Marvel Civil War doesn't apply as the registration act was a violation of constitutionally guaranteed rights, and it was repealed.. 
 
Regarding which level of super heroes I enjoy reading about more...  For me, it's street level.  I can relate to them more.  When they do something amazing, I can picture it in my head.  To me, if I see a someone dodging bullets, or leaping 30 feet into the air, my mind can actually grasp the idea of it happening and I can 'get' that it's amazing.   But when you're in outer space and a beam of energy zaps a dozen ships and makes them explode...it just doesn't seem all that amazing.  I don't get that relative sense of how impressive it is...  I guess I enjoy seeing Spider-man dodge bullets and smash robots, more than I enjoy seeing Superman fly into the sun...   But to each his own, right?

#7 Posted by lightsout (1827 posts) - - Show Bio

@Timandm said:

you're making the assumption that all street level vigilantes that are not sanctioned by the government, are breaking the law. That is simply not the case.... In the U.S., there is absolutely NO LAW AGAINST wearing a mask, and stopping crime. It is absolutely NOT AGAINST THE LAW. Any citizen of the U.S. can, by law, make a citizens arrest. Furthermore, there is absolutely no law against a citizen of the U.S. wearing a costume or a mask. So, to simply say all street level vigilantes are breaking the law isn't at all accurate.

This is why I think it makes sense for heroes to not kill villains, because they're stepping out of the cycle of justice before it becomes illegal. The cops do the official arresting & then trials, etc take place. The heroes just wrap them up in a nice neat package for the authorities (while not breaking the law the entire time).

#8 Posted by lorbo (1541 posts) - - Show Bio

@Timandm said:

you're making the assumption that all street level vigilantes that are not sanctioned by the government, are breaking the law. That is simply not the case.... In the U.S., there is absolutely NO LAW AGAINST wearing a mask, and stopping crime. It is absolutely NOT AGAINST THE LAW. Any citizen of the U.S. can, by law, make a citizens arrest. Furthermore, there is absolutely no law against a citizen of the U.S. wearing a costume or a mask. So, to simply say all street level vigilantes are breaking the law isn't at all accurate. Now, someone like the Punisher is obviously breaking the law, but he is not a super hero. Rather, he is an anti-hero. Batman, Daredevil, and Spider-man are all operating well within the law. Marvel Civil War doesn't apply as the registration act was a violation of constitutionally guaranteed rights, and it was repealed.. Regarding which level of super heroes I enjoy reading about more... For me, it's street level. I can relate to them more. When they do something amazing, I can picture it in my head. To me, if I see a someone dodging bullets, or leaping 30 feet into the air, my mind can actually grasp the idea of it happening and I can 'get' that it's amazing. But when you're in outer space and a beam of energy zaps a dozen ships and makes them explode...it just doesn't seem all that amazing. I don't get that relative sense of how impressive it is... I guess I enjoy seeing Spider-man dodge bullets and smash robots, more than I enjoy seeing Superman fly into the sun... But to each his own, right?

I concur with you man. The more superheroes feats involve things we know of, the more they make sense. Have you ever seen a real space ship with blasters? Nope...but we have seen cars right?

I'm just saying...the ONLY way out of this world stuff makes any impact on us is if it's explained (like star trek does to some extent), and maybe not even then.

#9 Posted by Kangaxx_54 (306 posts) - - Show Bio

@Timandm said:

Regarding which level of super heroes I enjoy reading about more... For me, it's street level. I can relate to them more. When they do something amazing, I can picture it in my head. To me, if I see a someone dodging bullets, or leaping 30 feet into the air, my mind can actually grasp the idea of it happening and I can 'get' that it's amazing. But when you're in outer space and a beam of energy zaps a dozen ships and makes them explode...it just doesn't seem all that amazing. I don't get that relative sense of how impressive it is... I guess I enjoy seeing Spider-man dodge bullets and smash robots, more than I enjoy seeing Superman fly into the sun... But to each his own, right?

Very good post. I hadn't throught about it before, but this is exactly the reason that I read almost only read about street level heroes.

As for the original post - I can see where you come from, but I'm not sure that the completely legal way is always the best (in the comics world). There're too many paperforms to fill out, too many powerful politicians with their own goals (Lex Luthor anyone?). I prefer to see the vigilantes working more or less together with the legal authorities, as well as the conflicts that arrive from this.

#10 Posted by MrDirector786 (43533 posts) - - Show Bio

While I do like both street level and global/galactic characters, I personally prefer the latter as well. I guess it’s because I feel the stories around them are more imaginative and I kind of like imaginative stories more than realistic ones. Still, at the same time I can see why people may prefer street level characters as they are more relatable and realistic, and sometimes I myself enjoy stories which are more down-to-Earth.

#11 Posted by Veshark (9058 posts) - - Show Bio

I think I'm an all-rounder. While many of my favorite heroes are street-levelers with no powers, I also have equal love for galactic alien-punching superhumans. Superhero comics are, by their nature, a mash of multiple subgenres, and the variety's one of the things I love about superheroes. On some days I might be in the mood for a gritty noir Batman tale, and in others, I might be more inclined to read about the Guardians of the Galaxy.

Still, most of the reasons you've given seem a little ill-informed. First off, the issue of corruption. Corruption is a messy business, especially in bureaucratic institutions like a police force. Cops (to my understanding) are loyal to their own kind, and a simplistic solution such as 'exposing their corruption' doesn't always work. Cops protect their own, they have connections to influential politicians, and they have authority. Maybe one or two of the small fry might be charged, but definitely not their superiors. Also, would you rather the hero direct his energy to exposing a few corrupt officers rather than handling genuinely-evil criminals?

As for the matter of superheroes being 'illegal', as ridiculous as it is, there are still no (to my knowledge) official binding regulations on superhuman activity. I know, it's a little silly I admit, but it's canon fact in Marvel and DC. Even if there were, I don't think that the 'government' would take down individual vigilantes, it would probably be something on a more local level. And like your argument about galactic superheroes handling threats that the government can't, in many ways, street vigilantes also tackle problems that ordinary cops can't. How well can conventional police handle someone like the Scarecrow? Or Doc Ock?

All that being said, you are entitled to your opinion, and I do 'get' where you're coming from. But despite some logical holes, the way I see things is that this is the nature of superhero comics. Thanks for reading.

#12 Posted by Avenging-X-Bolt (13011 posts) - - Show Bio

@Veshark said:

I think I'm an all-rounder. While many of my favorite heroes are street-levelers with no powers, I also have equal love for galactic alien-punching superhumans. Superhero comics are, by their nature, a mash of multiple subgenres, and the variety's one of the things I love about superheroes. On some days I might be in the mood for a gritty noir Batman tale, and in others, I might be more inclined to read about the Guardians of the Galaxy.

Still, most of the reasons you've given seem a little ill-informed. First off, the issue of corruption. Corruption is a messy business, especially in bureaucratic institutions like a police force. Cops (to my understanding) are loyal to their own kind, and a simplistic solution such as 'exposing their corruption' doesn't always work. Cops protect their own, they have connections to influential politicians, and they have authority. Maybe one or two of the small fry might be charged, but definitely not their superiors. Also, would you rather the hero direct his energy to exposing a few corrupt officers rather than handling genuinely-evil criminals?

As for the matter of superheroes being 'illegal', as ridiculous as it is, there are still no (to my knowledge) official binding regulations on superhuman activity. I know, it's a little silly I admit, but it's canon fact in Marvel and DC. Even if there were, I don't think that the 'government' would take down individual vigilantes, it would probably be something on a more local level. And like your argument about galactic superheroes handling threats that the government can't, in many ways, street vigilantes also tackle problems that ordinary cops can't. How well can conventional police handle someone like the Scarecrow? Or Doc Ock?

All that being said, you are entitled to your opinion, and I do 'get' where you're coming from. But despite some logical holes, the way I see things is that this is the nature of superhero comics. Thanks for reading.

#13 Posted by WaveMotionCannon (5386 posts) - - Show Bio
@Captain13 you a cop?
#14 Posted by JimTheSurfer (560 posts) - - Show Bio

Meh. Law is not always right. Without street levelers the streets would be full (in MU, DCU) of likes like Electro, Doc Ock etc. You trust the system too much... And what makes government sanctioned heroes better than others? Their methods are pretty much the same...

#15 Posted by Avenging-X-Bolt (13011 posts) - - Show Bio

@Captain13 said:

Let me preface this by saying that I do not hate street level heroes(Batman, Daredevil, Spider-man, etc.). I just do not think that they ever have a good reason for taking the law into their own hands--even if they do have good morals. What they do could (and does) encourage people to put themselves in dangerous situations needlessly. They potentially put others in danger by doing their work, And they embarrass the city police force, which probably increases crime rates. And police corruption is not a good enough reason for a continuing superhero career. Just expose that corruption and let the feds clean up.

Right. because there's no way anything like that could go wrong. It there's also no way a fed could be corrupt and/or on a crimelord's payroll. oh and the person with the secret identity is totally endangering their loved ones more than the cop with no powers and a badge. and a superhero doing the work a cop could but more likely than not wouldn't is not as embarrassing as a cop actually being there and failing.

also how would knowing that there are not only cops but a badass running around being crooks RAISE crime rates? Im not following your logic there.

Also, there's no way the government/police/coast guard/cia/fbi/nsa would allow a vigilante to operate. And if a hero has no powers or low level powers, the government should be able to handle them eventually.

On the other hand, global/galactic level heroes (Superman, Green Lantern, Flash, Cyborg) only need to operate when there is a threat that government weapons cannot handle. They do what the government can't even with great effort.

yep, because it's not like vigilantes do the same thing with regular cops (Batman/Gotham)

There are some exceptions though. I'm okay with government sanctioned street level heroes (Captain America, many of the Avengers, etc.). I'm okay with royal characters who operate with their kingdoms (Black Panther, Thor [not street level, I know], Aquaman [not street level, i know], etc.). And I'm okay with street levels heroes with magical mythologies (Iron Fist) or some other non-law-breaking reason to operate (Misty Knight and Colleen Wing, the bail bondsmen).

I guess what I'm saying is:

1) I do not care for law-breaking vigilantes. I do not think they ever have a good reason for long-term operation--even if that does lead to great stories.

so following your morals isnt a good reason for taking action? knowing you have the power to help isnt a good reason for actually helping?

2) I like heroes with high power levels.

What are your preferences?

#16 Posted by darkman61288 (730 posts) - - Show Bio

@Captain13: I repectfully disagree. I like the streetleveler better on the grounds that they are the people's heroes. They help the little guy. So what if Superman, Wonder Woman, and GL are in space watching out for an alien attack, that doesnt help me if i am being mugged or my daughter got kidnapped by a serial killer. Batman and the others do that is more important. Also their can be groups like MIB that do what the cosmic level heros do.

There is also evil that lurks in the Shadows that the big guys, the GLs, the Supermen, and Wonder Women cant fight. Those who use the system and the the law to their own ends. Those evils can be just as dangerous to humanity as any cosmic threat. Just look at the Joker and Ras al ghul. Both are extremely dangerous and can beat Superman and the other big guys. Batman and the others streetlevlers can go to into those shadows and fight them.

#17 Edited by Avenging-X-Bolt (13011 posts) - - Show Bio

@darkman61288 said:

@Captain13: I repectfully disagree. I like the streetleveler better on the grounds that they are the people's heroes. They help the little guy. So what if Superman, Wonder Woman, and GL are in space watching out for an alien attack, that doesnt help me if i am being mugged or my daughter got kidnapped by a serial killer. Batman and the others do that is more important. Also their can be groups like MIB that do what the cosmic level heros do.

There is also evil that lurks in the Shadows that the big guys, the GLs, the Supermen, and Wonder Women cant fight. Those who use the system and the the law to their own ends. Those evils can be just as dangerous to humanity as any cosmic threat. Just look at the Joker and Ras al ghul. Both are extremely dangerous and can beat Superman and the other big guys. Batman and the others streetlevlers can go to into those shadows and fight them.

to be fair, your daughter not being held by a serial killer or you not being mugged wouldnt matter much if aliens destroyed the planet. also Supes find time to help the little guy as do GL and Wonder Woman. hell Supes' arch nemesis is Lex Luthor, whom has influence over all of metropolis.

#18 Posted by SoA (4777 posts) - - Show Bio

im not a fan of extremely powerful heroes, characters like thor or superman can be seen as boring if they are going to win regardless, but with current enemies like h'el or the god butcher , it makes their stories interesting i like a LOT of the street vigilantes , for the reasons you listed many get in trouble on both sides of the law , for example the punisher, he goes around killing (which is wrong blah blah blah) people and in the eyes of the law is illegal , but the people he takes out are murderers and rapists etc many who seem to evade arrest , the punisher delivers vigilante justice (and its awesome)

another reason i like street level is because the threats are actually exciting whereas a trapped in a burning building or wounded from a gunfight doesn't bother superman , batman ,spider-man, etc have to use wits to try to survive . i do not hate cosmic heroes but they can get boring. look at the annhilators :4- 7 powerful characters who are so powerful they have to have minis because what can't they do? (btw they are due for a story...)

#19 Posted by SupremeHyperion (1523 posts) - - Show Bio

Always found the Galactic/Cosmic storylines to be more entertaining and complex and found the characters involved far superior to those in normal street-level books.

#20 Posted by Captain13 (3322 posts) - - Show Bio

Again, I would like to reiterate that I do not hate street levelers. I just prefer stronger heroes, and I do not see a good reason for vigilantes to operate (for several years).

@Timandm said:

you're making the assumption that all street level vigilantes that are not sanctioned by the government, are breaking the law. That is simply not the case.... In the U.S., there is absolutely NO LAW AGAINST wearing a mask, and stopping crime. It is absolutely NOT AGAINST THE LAW. Any citizen of the U.S. can, by law, make a citizens arrest. Furthermore, there is absolutely no law against a citizen of the U.S. wearing a costume or a mask. So, to simply say all street level vigilantes are breaking the law isn't at all accurate. Now, someone like the Punisher is obviously breaking the law, but he is not a super hero. Rather, he is an anti-hero. Batman, Daredevil, and Spider-man are all operating well within the law. Marvel Civil War doesn't apply as the registration act was a violation of constitutionally guaranteed rights, and it was repealed.. Regarding which level of super heroes I enjoy reading about more... For me, it's street level. I can relate to them more. When they do something amazing, I can picture it in my head. To me, if I see a someone dodging bullets, or leaping 30 feet into the air, my mind can actually grasp the idea of it happening and I can 'get' that it's amazing. But when you're in outer space and a beam of energy zaps a dozen ships and makes them explode...it just doesn't seem all that amazing. I don't get that relative sense of how impressive it is... I guess I enjoy seeing Spider-man dodge bullets and smash robots, more than I enjoy seeing Superman fly into the sun... But to each his own, right?

It is illegal to do things like beat people up when there may not be evidence that a person has done a crime (Daredevil does this when he loses in court sometimes). And no evidence that a vigilante gets is admissible in court because it is likely coerced from the accused or done through illegal surveillance. The cops don't know if Batman or Daredevil are just framing the accused. And vigilantes may decide who is guilty and impose justice on false pretenses. And celebrating vigilantes encourages people to emulate them, which is bad for the emulators and possibly the public. See Phoenix Jones and friends or the Batman impostors in the Dark Knight.

@SoA said:

im not a fan of extremely powerful heroes, characters like thor or superman can be seen as boring if they are going to win regardless, but with current enemies like h'el or the god butcher , it makes their stories interesting i like a LOT of the street vigilantes , for the reasons you listed many get in trouble on both sides of the law , for example the punisher, he goes around killing (which is wrong blah blah blah) people and in the eyes of the law is illegal , but the people he takes out are murderers and rapists etc many who seem to evade arrest , the punisher delivers vigilante justice (and its awesome)

another reason i like street level is because the threats are actually exciting whereas a trapped in a burning building or wounded from a gunfight doesn't bother superman , batman ,spider-man, etc have to use wits to try to survive . i do not hate cosmic heroes but they can get boring. look at the annhilators :4- 7 powerful characters who are so powerful they have to have minis because what can't they do? (btw they are due for a story...)

Yeah, if I have to say something bad about global/galactic level heroes, it's that writers are more interested in writing them as strong or having access to a deus ex machina rather than intelligently. If you put a global level hero against a galactic level villain, then you force the hero to be strategic--see Green Lantern in some stories.

@Avenging-X-Bolt said:

@darkman61288 said:

@Captain13: I repectfully disagree. I like the streetleveler better on the grounds that they are the people's heroes. They help the little guy. So what if Superman, Wonder Woman, and GL are in space watching out for an alien attack, that doesnt help me if i am being mugged or my daughter got kidnapped by a serial killer. Batman and the others do that is more important. Also their can be groups like MIB that do what the cosmic level heros do.

There is also evil that lurks in the Shadows that the big guys, the GLs, the Supermen, and Wonder Women cant fight. Those who use the system and the the law to their own ends. Those evils can be just as dangerous to humanity as any cosmic threat. Just look at the Joker and Ras al ghul. Both are extremely dangerous and can beat Superman and the other big guys. Batman and the others streetlevlers can go to into those shadows and fight them.

to be fair, your daughter not being held by a serial killer or you not being mugged wouldnt matter much if aliens destroyed the planet. also Supes find time to help the little guy as do GL and Wonder Woman. hell Supes' arch nemesis is Lex Luthor, whom has influence over all of metropolis.

Exactly.

@darkman61288 said:

@Captain13: I repectfully disagree. I like the streetleveler better on the grounds that they are the people's heroes. They help the little guy. So what if Superman, Wonder Woman, and GL are in space watching out for an alien attack, that doesnt help me if i am being mugged or my daughter got kidnapped by a serial killer. Batman and the others do that is more important. Also their can be groups like MIB that do what the cosmic level heros do.

There is also evil that lurks in the Shadows that the big guys, the GLs, the Supermen, and Wonder Women cant fight. Those who use the system and the the law to their own ends. Those evils can be just as dangerous to humanity as any cosmic threat. Just look at the Joker and Ras al ghul. Both are extremely dangerous and can beat Superman and the other big guys. Batman and the others streetlevlers can go to into those shadows and fight them.

That's what cops/national guard/cia/fbi/nsa/argus/shield are for. They should be doing those jobs within the legal realm--even if they are dealing with threats like al Ghul or Joker. Steve Trevor, Sargeant Rock, Amanda Waller, Rick Flagg, Captain America, Guradian (a cop), Jim Gordon, and others could take down these threats. It's embarrassing that the police force can't train their guys to be remotely close to what the city needs or to what Batman's level is. That's not a dig against Batman. But what happens a hundred years down the line when there is no Batman? And the fact that crime hasn't decreased since Batman/Darvedevil began operating indicates that they may not be the solution a city needs. On the other hand, the reason galactic/global level heroes operate is because the government can't implement systems to help stop those level threats.

And let's not even get into the idea that vigilantes create their own villains.

@Avenging-X-Bolt said:

@Captain13 said:

Let me preface this by saying that I do not hate street level heroes(Batman, Daredevil, Spider-man, etc.). I just do not think that they ever have a good reason for taking the law into their own hands--even if they do have good morals. What they do could (and does) encourage people to put themselves in dangerous situations needlessly. They potentially put others in danger by doing their work, And they embarrass the city police force, which probably increases crime rates. And police corruption is not a good enough reason for a continuing superhero career. Just expose that corruption and let the feds clean up.

Right. because there's no way anything like that could go wrong. It there's also no way a fed could be corrupt and/or on a crimelord's payroll. oh and the person with the secret identity is totally endangering their loved ones more than the cop with no powers and a badge. and a superhero doing the work a cop could but more likely than not wouldn't is not as embarrassing as a cop actually being there and failing.

also how would knowing that there are not only cops but a badass running around being crooks RAISE crime rates? Im not following your logic there.

Also, there's no way the government/police/coast guard/cia/fbi/nsa would allow a vigilante to operate. And if a hero has no powers or low level powers, the government should be able to handle them eventually.

On the other hand, global/galactic level heroes (Superman, Green Lantern, Flash, Cyborg) only need to operate when there is a threat that government weapons cannot handle. They do what the government can't even with great effort.

yep, because it's not like vigilantes do the same thing with regular cops (Batman/Gotham)

There are some exceptions though. I'm okay with government sanctioned street level heroes (Captain America, many of the Avengers, etc.). I'm okay with royal characters who operate with their kingdoms (Black Panther, Thor [not street level, I know], Aquaman [not street level, i know], etc.). And I'm okay with street levels heroes with magical mythologies (Iron Fist) or some other non-law-breaking reason to operate (Misty Knight and Colleen Wing, the bail bondsmen).

I guess what I'm saying is:

1) I do not care for law-breaking vigilantes. I do not think they ever have a good reason for long-term operation--even if that does lead to great stories.

so following your morals isnt a good reason for taking action? knowing you have the power to help isnt a good reason for actually helping?

2) I like heroes with high power levels.

What are your preferences?

Not all feds are corrupt though, so...? And if they were, then the hero should dedicate themselves to fixing that problem first. People should not take the law into their own hands. And I think that it could raise crime rates because the criminals who were too afraid before could say, hey look at this vigilante getting away with all these crimes and making the cops look like fools. Looks like we don't have to be afraid of the cops. This raises crime across the city and it leads citizens to lose faith in legal justice. And with the increased crime due to people knowing the vigliante cannot be everywhere at once and distracted cops, the crime issue may be made worse.

And if the vigilantes want to do cop work, then why don't they just become cops? They wouldn't need to operate outside the law.

Taking the law into your own hands is inherently immoral in my opinion--especially since you could be making incorrect assumptions, putting people in danger, and serving up illegitimate justice that is not at satisfying as legitimate justice.

@JimTheSurfer said:

Meh. Law is not always right. Without street levelers the streets would be full (in MU, DCU) of likes like Electro, Doc Ock etc. You trust the system too much... And what makes government sanctioned heroes better than others? Their methods are pretty much the same...

They can be held accountable for their flaws and mistakes. Vigilantes cannot until they are caught.

@WaveMotionCannon said:

@Captain13 you a cop?

Poli Sci/Sociology major going into law enforcement.

@Veshark said:

I think I'm an all-rounder. While many of my favorite heroes are street-levelers with no powers, I also have equal love for galactic alien-punching superhumans. Superhero comics are, by their nature, a mash of multiple subgenres, and the variety's one of the things I love about superheroes. On some days I might be in the mood for a gritty noir Batman tale, and in others, I might be more inclined to read about the Guardians of the Galaxy.

Still, most of the reasons you've given seem a little ill-informed. First off, the issue of corruption. Corruption is a messy business, especially in bureaucratic institutions like a police force. Cops (to my understanding) are loyal to their own kind, and a simplistic solution such as 'exposing their corruption' doesn't always work. Cops protect their own, they have connections to influential politicians, and they have authority. Maybe one or two of the small fry might be charged, but definitely not their superiors. Also, would you rather the hero direct his energy to exposing a few corrupt officers rather than handling genuinely-evil criminals?

As for the matter of superheroes being 'illegal', as ridiculous as it is, there are still no (to my knowledge) official binding regulations on superhuman activity. I know, it's a little silly I admit, but it's canon fact in Marvel and DC. Even if there were, I don't think that the 'government' would take down individual vigilantes, it would probably be something on a more local level. And like your argument about galactic superheroes handling threats that the government can't, in many ways, street vigilantes also tackle problems that ordinary cops can't. How well can conventional police handle someone like the Scarecrow? Or Doc Ock?

All that being said, you are entitled to your opinion, and I do 'get' where you're coming from. But despite some logical holes, the way I see things is that this is the nature of superhero comics. Thanks for reading.

Yes, I would rather have the vigilantes expose corrupt cops because a police system is more effective than one man or a small handful of men. An efficient force is going to be more effective and trusted than a vigilante.

Cops or SWAT teams should be trained to handle threats like scarecrow. Not being able to is just bad writing or bad training. I mean one guy is better trained than 50-100 people? I don't think so. And if he were, then the cops need better training. Why don't they start hiring people like Rick Flagg, Bronze Tiger, or Deastroke to train them? And what happens when the vigilante goes away? It's better to teach a man to fish than to fish for him.

#21 Posted by Veshark (9058 posts) - - Show Bio

But we've seen time and time again that police are unable to handle threats of the superhuman variety. If Scarecrow gasses Batman, you can bet that the genius polymath in a batsuit can come up with an antidote across the span of one issue. How effective do you think the police would be in trying to counteract the effects of the formula? How would the cops take down a charging battering ram like the Rhino? Or an untouchable assassin with pinpoint accuracy like Bullseye? Historically, every new weapon ever developed has been countered with an opposite (Bazookas were developed for tanks etc), and the opposite of supervillains are superheroes. If cops could handle these threats, there wouldn't be any superheroes in the first place.

As for your suggestion about 'training', how would cops be able to finance training from government operatives and international assassins? And keep in mind that cops are public servants, meaning that while some are physically built, do you honestly thing that most would be able to handle the rigors of Deathstroke's or Bronze Tiger's training? The superhuman world is populated with master combatants, doing impossible feats on a daily basis. Even the most B-list superheroes are professionals at hand-to-hand combat (See: Gypsy). It just doesn't seem like a cost-efficient solution.

And a larger number of individuals doesn't necessarily mean 'better' in the complex world of superheroes. You're dealing with villains with a variety of powers, and one man with superhuman powers (Spider-Man) or a lifetime of training (Batman) is definitely more effective than fifty cops with basic law enforcement skills. Heroes like Batman and Spidey deal with villains like this on a daily basis, and they've consistently been shown as being able to improvise against a variety of different powers. There isn't any one standard operating procedure against supervillains, and whatever training the police offers - no matter how efficient against conventional crime - simply can't handle superhuman powers.

There's no doubt that a police force of Batmen is more effective than a single Batman, but the current police force simply doesn't come close to the vigilante-league of combat. Trying to get them trained is as heavy-handed a solution as trying to tear down an entire police force by 'exposing corruption'. You're essentially saying that you would rather the hero expose an entire police force as being 'corrupted', thus losing whatever credence they have with the public, rather than handling the crime that terrorizes innocent civilians.

#22 Posted by Avenging-X-Bolt (13011 posts) - - Show Bio

@Captain13 said:

Again, I would like to reiterate that I do not hate street levelers. I just prefer stronger heroes, and I do not see a good reason for vigilantes to operate (for several years).

@Timandm said:

you're making the assumption that all street level vigilantes that are not sanctioned by the government, are breaking the law. That is simply not the case.... In the U.S., there is absolutely NO LAW AGAINST wearing a mask, and stopping crime. It is absolutely NOT AGAINST THE LAW. Any citizen of the U.S. can, by law, make a citizens arrest. Furthermore, there is absolutely no law against a citizen of the U.S. wearing a costume or a mask. So, to simply say all street level vigilantes are breaking the law isn't at all accurate. Now, someone like the Punisher is obviously breaking the law, but he is not a super hero. Rather, he is an anti-hero. Batman, Daredevil, and Spider-man are all operating well within the law. Marvel Civil War doesn't apply as the registration act was a violation of constitutionally guaranteed rights, and it was repealed.. Regarding which level of super heroes I enjoy reading about more... For me, it's street level. I can relate to them more. When they do something amazing, I can picture it in my head. To me, if I see a someone dodging bullets, or leaping 30 feet into the air, my mind can actually grasp the idea of it happening and I can 'get' that it's amazing. But when you're in outer space and a beam of energy zaps a dozen ships and makes them explode...it just doesn't seem all that amazing. I don't get that relative sense of how impressive it is... I guess I enjoy seeing Spider-man dodge bullets and smash robots, more than I enjoy seeing Superman fly into the sun... But to each his own, right?

It is illegal to do things like beat people up when there may not be evidence that a person has done a crime (Daredevil does this when he loses in court sometimes). And no evidence that a vigilante gets is admissible in court because it is likely coerced from the accused or done through illegal surveillance. The cops don't know if Batman or Daredevil are just framing the accused. And vigilantes may decide who is guilty and impose justice on false pretenses. And celebrating vigilantes encourages people to emulate them, which is bad for the emulators and possibly the public. See Phoenix Jones and friends or the Batman impostors in the Dark Knight.

Illegal isnt always equal to wrong. It was illegal for Black people to sit in the front of the bus once. cops

@SoA said:

im not a fan of extremely powerful heroes, characters like thor or superman can be seen as boring if they are going to win regardless, but with current enemies like h'el or the god butcher , it makes their stories interesting i like a LOT of the street vigilantes , for the reasons you listed many get in trouble on both sides of the law , for example the punisher, he goes around killing (which is wrong blah blah blah) people and in the eyes of the law is illegal , but the people he takes out are murderers and rapists etc many who seem to evade arrest , the punisher delivers vigilante justice (and its awesome)

another reason i like street level is because the threats are actually exciting whereas a trapped in a burning building or wounded from a gunfight doesn't bother superman , batman ,spider-man, etc have to use wits to try to survive . i do not hate cosmic heroes but they can get boring. look at the annhilators :4- 7 powerful characters who are so powerful they have to have minis because what can't they do? (btw they are due for a story...)

Yeah, if I have to say something bad about global/galactic level heroes, it's that writers are more interested in writing them as strong or having access to a deus ex machina rather than intelligently. If you put a global level hero against a galactic level villain, then you force the hero to be strategic--see Green Lantern in some stories.

@Avenging-X-Bolt said:

@darkman61288 said:

@Captain13: I repectfully disagree. I like the streetleveler better on the grounds that they are the people's heroes. They help the little guy. So what if Superman, Wonder Woman, and GL are in space watching out for an alien attack, that doesnt help me if i am being mugged or my daughter got kidnapped by a serial killer. Batman and the others do that is more important. Also their can be groups like MIB that do what the cosmic level heros do.

There is also evil that lurks in the Shadows that the big guys, the GLs, the Supermen, and Wonder Women cant fight. Those who use the system and the the law to their own ends. Those evils can be just as dangerous to humanity as any cosmic threat. Just look at the Joker and Ras al ghul. Both are extremely dangerous and can beat Superman and the other big guys. Batman and the others streetlevlers can go to into those shadows and fight them.

to be fair, your daughter not being held by a serial killer or you not being mugged wouldnt matter much if aliens destroyed the planet. also Supes find time to help the little guy as do GL and Wonder Woman. hell Supes' arch nemesis is Lex Luthor, whom has influence over all of metropolis.

Exactly.

@darkman61288 said:

@Captain13: I repectfully disagree. I like the streetleveler better on the grounds that they are the people's heroes. They help the little guy. So what if Superman, Wonder Woman, and GL are in space watching out for an alien attack, that doesnt help me if i am being mugged or my daughter got kidnapped by a serial killer. Batman and the others do that is more important. Also their can be groups like MIB that do what the cosmic level heros do.

There is also evil that lurks in the Shadows that the big guys, the GLs, the Supermen, and Wonder Women cant fight. Those who use the system and the the law to their own ends. Those evils can be just as dangerous to humanity as any cosmic threat. Just look at the Joker and Ras al ghul. Both are extremely dangerous and can beat Superman and the other big guys. Batman and the others streetlevlers can go to into those shadows and fight them.

That's what cops/national guard/cia/fbi/nsa/argus/shield are for. They should be doing those jobs within the legal realm--even if they are dealing with threats like al Ghul or Joker. Steve Trevor, Sargeant Rock, Amanda Waller, Rick Flagg, Captain America, Guradian (a cop), Jim Gordon, and others could take down these threats. It's embarrassing that the police force can't train their guys to be remotely close to what the city needs or to what Batman's level is. That's not a dig against Batman. But what happens a hundred years down the line when there is no Batman? And the fact that crime hasn't decreased since Batman/Darvedevil began operating indicates that they may not be the solution a city needs. On the other hand, the reason galactic/global level heroes operate is because the government can't implement systems to help stop those level threats.

And let's not even get into the idea that vigilantes create their own villains.

Gotham will always have Batman in some way shape or form. whether Bruce clones himself, trains a successor or uses a handpicked Outsiders team.

@Avenging-X-Bolt said:

@Captain13 said:

Let me preface this by saying that I do not hate street level heroes(Batman, Daredevil, Spider-man, etc.). I just do not think that they ever have a good reason for taking the law into their own hands--even if they do have good morals. What they do could (and does) encourage people to put themselves in dangerous situations needlessly. They potentially put others in danger by doing their work, And they embarrass the city police force, which probably increases crime rates. And police corruption is not a good enough reason for a continuing superhero career. Just expose that corruption and let the feds clean up.

Right. because there's no way anything like that could go wrong. It there's also no way a fed could be corrupt and/or on a crimelord's payroll. oh and the person with the secret identity is totally endangering their loved ones more than the cop with no powers and a badge. and a superhero doing the work a cop could but more likely than not wouldn't is not as embarrassing as a cop actually being there and failing.

also how would knowing that there are not only cops but a badass running around being crooks RAISE crime rates? Im not following your logic there.

Also, there's no way the government/police/coast guard/cia/fbi/nsa would allow a vigilante to operate. And if a hero has no powers or low level powers, the government should be able to handle them eventually.

On the other hand, global/galactic level heroes (Superman, Green Lantern, Flash, Cyborg) only need to operate when there is a threat that government weapons cannot handle. They do what the government can't even with great effort.

yep, because it's not like vigilantes do the same thing with regular cops (Batman/Gotham)

There are some exceptions though. I'm okay with government sanctioned street level heroes (Captain America, many of the Avengers, etc.). I'm okay with royal characters who operate with their kingdoms (Black Panther, Thor [not street level, I know], Aquaman [not street level, i know], etc.). And I'm okay with street levels heroes with magical mythologies (Iron Fist) or some other non-law-breaking reason to operate (Misty Knight and Colleen Wing, the bail bondsmen).

I guess what I'm saying is:

1) I do not care for law-breaking vigilantes. I do not think they ever have a good reason for long-term operation--even if that does lead to great stories.

so following your morals isnt a good reason for taking action? knowing you have the power to help isnt a good reason for actually helping?

2) I like heroes with high power levels.

What are your preferences?

Not all feds are corrupt though, so...? And if they were, then the hero should dedicate themselves to fixing that problem first. People should not take the law into their own hands. And I think that it could raise crime rates because the criminals who were too afraid before could say, hey look at this vigilante getting away with all these crimes and making the cops look like fools. Looks like we don't have to be afraid of the cops. This raises crime across the city and it leads citizens to lose faith in legal justice. And with the increased crime due to people knowing the vigliante cannot be everywhere at once and distracted cops, the crime issue may be made worse.

most people i know dont have faith in "legal justice".

And if the vigilantes want to do cop work, then why don't they just become cops? They wouldn't need to operate outside the law.

Taking the law into your own hands is inherently immoral in my opinion--especially since you could be making incorrect assumptions, putting people in danger, and serving up illegitimate justice that is not at satisfying as legitimate justice.

@JimTheSurfer said:

Meh. Law is not always right. Without street levelers the streets would be full (in MU, DCU) of likes like Electro, Doc Ock etc. You trust the system too much... And what makes government sanctioned heroes better than others? Their methods are pretty much the same...

They can be held accountable for their flaws and mistakes. Vigilantes cannot until they are caught.

@WaveMotionCannon said:

@Captain13 you a cop?

Poli Sci/Sociology major going into law enforcement.

@Veshark said:

I think I'm an all-rounder. While many of my favorite heroes are street-levelers with no powers, I also have equal love for galactic alien-punching superhumans. Superhero comics are, by their nature, a mash of multiple subgenres, and the variety's one of the things I love about superheroes. On some days I might be in the mood for a gritty noir Batman tale, and in others, I might be more inclined to read about the Guardians of the Galaxy.

Still, most of the reasons you've given seem a little ill-informed. First off, the issue of corruption. Corruption is a messy business, especially in bureaucratic institutions like a police force. Cops (to my understanding) are loyal to their own kind, and a simplistic solution such as 'exposing their corruption' doesn't always work. Cops protect their own, they have connections to influential politicians, and they have authority. Maybe one or two of the small fry might be charged, but definitely not their superiors. Also, would you rather the hero direct his energy to exposing a few corrupt officers rather than handling genuinely-evil criminals?

As for the matter of superheroes being 'illegal', as ridiculous as it is, there are still no (to my knowledge) official binding regulations on superhuman activity. I know, it's a little silly I admit, but it's canon fact in Marvel and DC. Even if there were, I don't think that the 'government' would take down individual vigilantes, it would probably be something on a more local level. And like your argument about galactic superheroes handling threats that the government can't, in many ways, street vigilantes also tackle problems that ordinary cops can't. How well can conventional police handle someone like the Scarecrow? Or Doc Ock?

All that being said, you are entitled to your opinion, and I do 'get' where you're coming from. But despite some logical holes, the way I see things is that this is the nature of superhero comics. Thanks for reading.

Yes, I would rather have the vigilantes expose corrupt cops because a police system is more effective than one man or a small handful of men. An efficient force is going to be more effective and trusted than a vigilante.

Cops or SWAT teams should be trained to handle threats like scarecrow. Not being able to is just bad writing or bad training. I mean one guy is better trained than 50-100 people? I don't think so. And if he were, then the cops need better training. Why don't they start hiring people like Rick Flagg, Bronze Tiger, or Deastroke to train them? And what happens when the vigilante goes away? It's better to teach a man to fish than to fish for him.

i have to admit, you have some good points, but im still not sure that i completely agree.

#23 Edited by darkman61288 (730 posts) - - Show Bio

@Captain13: My problem with the Comsic heros like Superman and the others is that they prevent humanity from improving. Disasters help humanity improve by helping humanity learn. There was an issue of Superman that delt with this. Street level crime how ever will contiune to exists no matter how much society will improve.

#24 Posted by Captain13 (3322 posts) - - Show Bio

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