Why I Hate Damian Wayne

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StCrimson667

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Edited By StCrimson667

I'll be the first to admit that I'm not an avid comic book reader, I've hardly ever picked up an actual comic book in my life, but that's not to say that I am completely ignorant. I've always been a big fan of comic media, especially movies and television shows, and Batman has always been one of my favourite characters in the world of comic books so I try to make sure that I'm up to date on everything that happens in his series. I may be a little late in joining the discussion, but I figured it was time to throw in my two cents and write my ideas down so I don't need to worry about holding onto them.

I don't like Damian Wayne, I hesitate to use the word "hate", but it's probably the only word that's strong enough to describe my feelings around him. After researching him, learning about his run in the comics and watching the movies "Son of Batman" and "Batman vs. Robin", I've discovered a definite distaste for him, particularly in the later of the two films which is quite good, but in which Damian's presence severely detracts from one of the best modern Batman story archs. Here is where I'll lay out the reasons why I feel the way I do about him and the problems I've come across with his character.

Lack of Originality

I don't want to use the word "fan-ficy" because there are a lot of great fanfictions out there that are just as good as any "real" story, but, again, that's the closest word I can find to describe how I feel Damian has been written. Really, Damian feels like something that could be held up as an example of fanfiction, fangasmic wish-fulfilment, a character who combines all the best and most notably qualities of all the other Robins on top of being Bruce Wayne's biological son (as if that's actually supposed to matter).

My first problem with Damian is that he brings nothing new to the role of Robin, he's simply a condescended retelling of all the previous Robins. He has Dick Grayson's skill, Jason Todd's anger, and Tim Drake's intelligence, and really not much else that I can see to define him as a character or give his incarnation of Robin any new life because each Robin previous to him as brought something new to the role and provided a different perspective on the role of Batman's sidekick. Dick Grayson is the original Robin, the one who carved out the role and paved the way for all of the others, the one who became Batman's sidekick at a time when Batman had never planned on having on and never even really wanted one. Perhaps it's all in my mind and my own idea of who these characters are, but I think that Dick Grayson is the one who understands Bruce the best because he's known Bruce the longest and the one who had completely given himself over to Bruce's dream of ridding Gotham of crime and making it into the place that Bruce's parents had previously envisioned. He's also the one who grew up in the role and eventually outgrew it, becoming a hero in his own right with his own successes and accomplishments. Dick Grayson is the golden boy, the one who did it all first and the one who all Robins who come after will be compared to. What Dick brought to the role was his acrobatic skills from his time training in the circus with his parents, flipping, cartwheeling, and somersaulting around his opponents so they can never even touch him, but he's also the one who's trained the longest and who, I think, is the most skilled fighter of the three main Robin.

Jason Todd is, of course, the angry Robin, he's the one who came from a completely different world from both Dick and Bruce and who came with his own emotional baggage before even once putting on the tights. He's the rebel, the one who was fueled by the anger he didn't know how to express and the one who eventually went off the rails. Jason is the one who shows what crime, poverty, addiction, etc., can do to people and shows that mental illness and trauma is something which not everyone beats. Jason is also someone who made one stupid decision, to go after Joker on his own, and it cost him while making Bruce question the very idea of having a Robin in the first place. But, I also believe that Jason is the one who looked up to Bruce the most, because he had had none else to look up to in his life, and desperately wanted Bruce's approval, even to the point of going after the Joker to do it. And now, after his return, he is now the one who, instead of fighting against what Bruce is doing, is still trying to fulfill Bruce's dream, but just going about it the wrong way. He wants to rid Gotham city of crime because he's one of its victims and because he knows that there will be others like him who will be hurt when nothing is being done to save them. I could continue on Jason Todd, but I'll save my analysis on him for another, possible post.

Finally, of course, there's Tim Drake, who is the intelligent Robin. Tim is the one who helped bring Bruce out of his depression following Jason's death and showed him that there are people like him, Dick, and Jason who need Bruce and that the risk is worth it. Tim Drake is the Robin who is most different from the other two, where Jason may have been trying to be Dick Grayson and live up to his predecessor, Tim is the one who breaks the mold, using his mind instead of his brawn. While Bruce, Dick, and Jason are getting ready to go out and bust down doors, Tim hacks into the security cameras and databases to get the information they need. He may be the one who has had the least experience and the weakest in terms of physical combat, but he brings his brainpower and uses it to find new solutions to old problems.

Someone will probably counter my argument that Damian doesn't have much in the way of uniqueness by bring up his backstory, about how he was the son of Talia al Ghul and how he was trained to be a killer, but I would counter that with the backstory of Cassandra Cain. Yes, not a Robin, but I think a very fascinating character in her own right and one who needs to have more down with her. She is the daughter of Lady Shiva, Ra's al Ghul's second-in-command, and she was raised from birth to be his bodyguard, being so isolated and so neglected that she never learns to speak or how to read or write. But, when the time comes for her to become the assassin she is supposed to be, she refuses to become what they want her to be and instead becomes a hero. Her story shares a lot of similarities with Damian and I think that it is because they have such similar stories, that Cassandra is left in the background.

My first issue with Damian is that he does nothing new, he is just a mash-up of all the previous Robins without bringing a fresh take on the role or any new quality which really defines him and makes him different from its predecessors, other than the fact that he is Bruce Wayne's biological son, but that has also led to problems with his character.

His Effect on Bruce Wayne

Because Damian lacks a uniqueness in terms of character, he's defining characteristic is that he's Bruce's biological son and that has become something so important in his story where I really believe it shouldn't be. Why does blood make all the difference? Why is it so important that Damian got 50% of his genes from Bruce? In the grand scheme of things, it's really not all that important that Damian is Bruce Wayne's offspring. What sort of effect is it supposed to have on Damian? The two of them look kind of similar? Really, it doesn't make that much of a difference. Ask any adopted child who has had good, loving parents and they will say that their adopted parents are their real parents, not their birth parents. Bruce already has children who he has adopted and raised, so why does Damian get to be called the son of Batman while Dick, Jason, and Tim do not? My biggest issue with Damian is that he has changed the way Bruce has been written and not for the better, Bruce has been making allowances for Damian whereas he would never had made such allowances in the past such as around Damian's persistent disobedience and his violent, aggressive behaviour. I've read comments of people saying how Damian is a child and so his behaviour shouldn't be taken too seriously because he doesn't know any better, to that I completely and utterly disagree. It is because Damian is a child that he needs to learn better, because, if he doesn't, then he may never learn otherwise. Damian has been foreshadowed to become a violent, murderous version of Batman so it should seem obvious where his behaviour will lead.

The most evident example of how different Damian causes Bruce to act is in the aftermath of his death (again mirrored Jason Todd) where Bruce is looking desperately to find a way to resurrect Damian, knowing full well from previous experience (*cough* Jason *cough*) that that isn't always a good idea. Now, it's perfectly understandable for Bruce to be upset, having lost another Robin when he had swore he never would again and it is even conceivable that Bruce would want to revive Damian, but during this arch, Bruce acts rashly and insensitively, even telling Jason that he never should have been made Robin. That is something I cannot stand. The Bruce Wayne I know would never say anything like that because the Bruce Wayne I know never would have sabotaged Jason's recovery like that. By saying that, Bruce shows how he sees Damian as more important that his other children. To Bruce Wayne, it shouldn't matter whether Damian is related by blood or not, the Bruce Wayne I know would never treat Damian any differently than any other of the Robins and that could possibly provide a really dynamic between Damian and Bruce as Damian believes he's more important than the others and Bruce insists that he isn't. In the end, the thing I hate most about Damian Wayne is the effect he has had on the way that Bruce Wayne has been written, pulling him further and further away from how I think he needs to be.

So What to Do?

Honestly, I would like it for Damian Wayne to disappear all together and, instead, have the time he would have taken be given to Jason Todd and/or Cassandra Cain to help develop them as characters and to give them more growth which might have been wasted on Damian. However, there are two points that I do like about Damian, the fact that he is biracial (though you often wouldn't know it by the way he's illustrated), and the fact that he loves animals, but the first position could be filled by Cassandra, being biracial as well, and the second could easily be slipped into a character like Jason. In the end, if Damian is going to remain as Robin, I think he and the stories he is in are going to need serious rewriting, though I do think that the stories around him, like the Court of Owls arch, are excellent and definitely deserve keeping.

Batman is one of my favourite characters of all time and all I want to see is him returned to his potential as one of the greatest characters not just in DC, but in modern times. I feel that Damian is something which has really only brought Batman down from where he was and would would love nothing more than to see him restored.

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kgb725

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@immolation: I've always hated seeing a 10 year old kid beat up a grown man with just his fists and feet

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GreatCaesarsGhost

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Ugh, Damian beating Deathstroke in that one DC animated film. I cringe thinking about him over powering Ubu who's like 300 pounds of muscle.

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Sommie7890

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@kgb725: Cringes me that Batman could beat the whole justice league.

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kyrees

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ohh this is rare. a well thought out hate thread.

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never give up

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@kyrees said:

ohh this is rare. a well thought out hate thread.

lol

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EmperorxHadesx420

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Personally Jason and Damian are my favorites easily.

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MasterKungFu

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#9  Edited By MasterKungFu

makes sense to hate on a fictional character

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Moul

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I hate Tim Drake, he has no personality

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SpareHeadOne

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#11  Edited By SpareHeadOne

Don't read morrisons resurrection of ra's Algoul then. Compared to that Damian is a loveable hero in the movies.

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entropy_aegis

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#13  Edited By entropy_aegis

The sheer ignorance though is astounding, while the OP has admitted to not knowing much but the way he describes these characters has wiki written all over it.

For example you mentioned Cass and her history with the League,only problem here is that the idea of Damian pre-dates Cass by years. Son of the Demon,Brother Hood of the Bat,Kingdom Come were written years before Cass. As for Cass and the League that didn't become part of her backstory until many years later and it was something that never really took off. David Cain is integral to her history not Ra's and the League. Lady Shiva was Ra's second in command in no comic ever written.

Or your description of Bruce,Dick and Jason going out to bust heads while Tim did all the smart work,where did you get this from?

Or your faulty analysis of Damian being wish fulfilment,hello that's Tim Drake .Then there's Tim being the intelligent one which is again incorrect,Tim only became the intelligent one when Damian showed up and made him look dull in comparison. Tim's purpose was to be the average joe of the Batman family not the smart guy.

Really though you have a problem with Damian being smarter than Tim but you dont have a problem with Tim being smarter than Dick? double standards much?

Or Damian being the angry one like Jason except Damian is never angry,he's an entitled aristocrat like Draco Malfoy who unlike Draco actually tries to become a better person.

Fighting skills are inconsequential,Damian has lost to Tim Drake more than once and he cant beat Dick either. He's just more skilled than they were at this point of their respective ages which is just common sense.

Damian lacks uniqueness? of all the Robins Damian has lifted the least from Dick Grayson. Jason Todd is essentially perverted Dick,even a good chunk of Tim is repackaged Dick and now he's running around as Batman Beyond.

In the grand scheme of things Damian is a contemporary Grant Morrison character,that alone blows Todd and Drake out of the water. In the grand scheme of things Damian has starred in 2 animated movies and will be starring in more for the foreseeable future. In the grand scheme of things Damian will always be part of one of the most highly regarded Batman runs while Jason will be the Robin who died and whined about it and Tim will have a bunch of forgettable and dated 90's stories. Jason's death and resurrection can only milked for so long when that story plays out completely then we'll see who matters in the grand scheme. Tim is already irrelevant,he has no mainstream status. Even the good writers associated with Tim like Wolfman and Dixon are remembered for Deathstroke,Teen Titans,Knightfall and Bane not Tim.

Finally Tim is starring in 3 books currently,Jason in 2 and a mini series while Damian in just one. If writers want to develop them further they have all the room in the world to do so without making Damian disappear.. Damian's own solo gives him more character development in 1 issue than the others get in entire arcs. Giving Damian the Houdini treatment isnt going to magically make Red Hood/Arsenal or Teen Titans good books.

The part about Damian hurting Batman's status makes no sense at all, Batman has had 2 animated series' a tv show,2 billion dollar movies,a bunch of Lego movies, 4 Arkham games,dozen or so animated movies after Damians creation and has a whole slate of movies coming up. That was a stupid thing to say.

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Outside_85

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Or your faulty analysis of Damian being wish fulfilment,hello that's Tim Drake .Then there's Tim being the intelligent one which is again incorrect,Tim only became the intelligent one when Damian showed up and made him look dull in comparison. Tim's purpose was to be the average joe of the Batman family not the smart guy.

Save the fact he's always been smarter than the collective GCPD, every thug in Gotham and most people beyond thats tried it... since he was the kid that managed to figure out who Batman was.And before Damian showed up, Tim was matching wits with Luthor. It's just acended to Batman levels of dickishness once Damian appeared.

So it's pretty safe to say Tim was always the smart one, what he wasn't was a master of 120+ MA's while in daipers.

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entropy_aegis

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@entropy_aegis said:

Or your faulty analysis of Damian being wish fulfilment,hello that's Tim Drake .Then there's Tim being the intelligent one which is again incorrect,Tim only became the intelligent one when Damian showed up and made him look dull in comparison. Tim's purpose was to be the average joe of the Batman family not the smart guy.

Save the fact he's always been smarter than the collective GCPD, every thug in Gotham and most people beyond thats tried it... since he was the kid that managed to figure out who Batman was.And before Damian showed up, Tim was matching wits with Luthor. It's just acended to Batman levels of dickishness once Damian appeared.

So it's pretty safe to say Tim was always the smart one, what he wasn't was a master of 120+ MA's while in daipers.

Tim was smart in that he was cautious unlike Todd the hot head and Grayson the thrill seeking daredevil and I hardly recall his 90's books being detective thrillers. Tim didn't exactly show that Lonely Place of Dying intellect later on in the Dixon books,maybe Wolfman had a different idea but the Drake of the 90's was consistently depicted as an average joe in extraordinary circumstances. I still think Lonnie Machin should've been Robin,who knows maybe he'd have made Damian unnecessary too.

He started matching wits with Luthor when DC and Johns decided to turn him in to Batman jr which is essentially the same character Damian is.

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Outside_85

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Tim was smart in that he was cautious unlike Todd the hot head and Grayson the thrill seeking daredevil and I hardly recall his 90's books being detective thrillers. Tim didn't exactly show that Lonely Place of Dying intellect later on in the Dixon books,maybe Wolfman had a different idea but the Drake of the 90's was consistently depicted as an average joe in extraordinary circumstances. I still think Lonnie Machin should've been Robin,who knows maybe he'd have made Damian unnecessary too.

He started matching wits with Luthor when DC and Johns decided to turn him in to Batman jr which is essentially the same character Damian is.

Well, I'll stick with his creator Wolfman over Dixon any day. And aside how smart he was, I believe I am correct in saying that Tim was otherwise a completely normal kid. I know his parents were better paid than most, but his story wasn't mired in tragedy, he went to a normal school and had normal friends and so on.

No, Damian is 'like Batman' in the physcial sense of being a nearly unmatched fighter, Tim is 'like Batman' in the cerebral department. Thats what's become the consistent trait atleast... and then you have the out of nowhere things like Damian making the flying car work and Tim beating up some way out of his league MA's like Shiva.

But that said, and ignoring Wolfman for a moment, if Johns intended to make him into Bat's Jr. he does preceed Damian by several years.

(You wouldn't happen to know how PAD depicted him in YJ?)

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deactivated-5d3f071d30d9f

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While i can tolerate Damian Wayne. I agreee what he often looks a gender swamp of Cassandra Cain´s Origin which i makes me disliking his characther a bit.

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darkdetective27

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This pretty much sums up how I feel about him. He brings nothing interesting except an obnoxious attitude and is pretty much a Mary Sue. I dont get why the character is so beloved.

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HolySerpent

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@entropy_aegis: im interested in your opinion, who do you is think is better batman Dick Grayson or Terry McGennis?

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entropy_aegis

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@entropy_aegis said:

Tim was smart in that he was cautious unlike Todd the hot head and Grayson the thrill seeking daredevil and I hardly recall his 90's books being detective thrillers. Tim didn't exactly show that Lonely Place of Dying intellect later on in the Dixon books,maybe Wolfman had a different idea but the Drake of the 90's was consistently depicted as an average joe in extraordinary circumstances. I still think Lonnie Machin should've been Robin,who knows maybe he'd have made Damian unnecessary too.

He started matching wits with Luthor when DC and Johns decided to turn him in to Batman jr which is essentially the same character Damian is.

Well, I'll stick with his creator Wolfman over Dixon any day. And aside how smart he was, I believe I am correct in saying that Tim was otherwise a completely normal kid. I know his parents were better paid than most, but his story wasn't mired in tragedy, he went to a normal school and had normal friends and so on.

No, Damian is 'like Batman' in the physcial sense of being a nearly unmatched fighter, Tim is 'like Batman' in the cerebral department. Thats what's become the consistent trait atleast... and then you have the out of nowhere things like Damian making the flying car work and Tim beating up some way out of his league MA's like Shiva.

But that said, and ignoring Wolfman for a moment, if Johns intended to make him into Bat's Jr. he does preceed Damian by several years.

(You wouldn't happen to know how PAD depicted him in YJ?)

But Dixon wrote more than hundred issues of Tim,all the 3 mini solos and about half of his ongoing surely his contribution means something.

I agree with the flying car though,that was stupid.

The problem with Johns was that he made him a rather sucky one while DC destroyed everything that was unique about that character. I still cringe at kid Tim laying the smackdown on adult Tim.

I haven't read PADs' work but I really liked Harm and Secret from the Young Justice series.

@vitalius said:

While i can tolerate Damian Wayne. I agreee what he often looks a gender swamp of Cassandra Cain´s Origin which i makes me disliking his characther a bit.

Assassin child of Bruce and Talia concept predates Cass Cain.

@entropy_aegis: im interested in your opinion, who do you is think is better batman Dick Grayson or Terry McGennis?

Dick easily,I love Terry but Dick did it by himself while Terry needed Bruce.

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entropy_aegis

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@vitalius said:

@entropy_aegis: ok but was his origin explore on that book ?

Batman:Son of the Demon,Kingdom:Son of the Bat,Kingdom: Nightstar,Batman: Brotherhood of the Bat.

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deactivated-5d3f071d30d9f

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@entropy_aegis: Ok then. But i think Cassandra had a better origin since show positives and negatives of being daughter of Lady Shiva and Cain. From what i see from writers, Damian ´s issue was he had to be the best or pressure of being the best because the people who were connected to him.

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StCrimson667

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Wow! I never thought my first post would get so many comments! Thanks, everyone! I'm glad some people see where I'm coming from! :)

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But Dixon wrote more than hundred issues of Tim,all the 3 mini solos and about half of his ongoing surely his contribution means something.

I agree with the flying car though,that was stupid.

The problem with Johns was that he made him a rather sucky one while DC destroyed everything that was unique about that character. I still cringe at kid Tim laying the smackdown on adult Tim.

I haven't read PADs' work but I really liked Harm and Secret from the Young Justice series.

Honestly, no, not if he gets wrong from the beginning. Same in the case of Johns TT, maybe not with Tim so much, but some of the others...

Isn't it also the only extreme smarts Damian has?

I could argue that adult Tim getting beaten was more a case of him not wanting to serious injure his younger self. I wouldn't say he made him suck, he just didn't Mary Sue him to the point where he could out-wit people with far more experience than him. I thought it was fine he was closing in on Luthor intellectually, but I wouldn't have liked it if he had been shown as smarter.

Dunno either really :)

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StCrimson667

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#26  Edited By StCrimson667

@entropy_aegis: Obviously, you're way more knowledgeable about the comics than I am so I really can't argue with your points. In the end, this is all just my opinion, how I envision the characters and how I would portray them. I'm not claiming to be an expert, these are all really just my impressions and, if you like Damian, then obviously who can see something in him that I can't.

My only response would be that, as shallow as characters like Tim and Jason may have been, they could still be great characters. I think Jason is the perfect example of this. You say how Jason is "the Robin who died and whined about it" and that's probably true, but Jason could be so much more. I didn't mention this because I wanted the post to be about Damian, I really want to see Jason grow beyond that and deal with the trauma of what he went through so he can reconcile with the Batfamily, but that isn't happening because Damian is now taking up most of the story space. And, while Cassandra's story may have come later, their stories are still remarkably similar and I feel that her story is more interesting and handled better. Particularly with Cassandra, I really want to see her used more because I find her a fascinating character. Really, I want to see all these characters evolve, but I don't know that Damian, once he becomes more like Bruce and the rest of the Batfamily, he'll have anything which will distinguish him other than a few small facts and qualities that really don't mean much. If his character arc is going to be a person who moves from a bad person to a good person, I would much prefer to see that done with Jason because I feel that Jason, if written right, could do it better and still be an interesting character whereas I'm not sure that can be done with Damian. But, then again, it's just my opinion. Thanks for the reply, anyways.

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DarthAznable

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I agree.

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StCrimson667

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I agree.

Great! I'm glad others see things the way I do. :)

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DeathpooltheT1000

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@entropy_aegis:Modern Damian Wayne does not predates Cassandra Cain, this is not the same character, the one we could say predates Cassandra is from an Elseworld and is nothing like this Damian Wayne.

Its like saying that Bruce Wayne from Amalgam is the same Bruce Wayne from DC.

Thank god i am not the only one that hates him for this reasons.

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deactivated-57e73a0365070

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Im not a fan of Robin in general. Batman doesn't need a sidekick. They should of just let Tim grow up and not replace him.

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swiftbullet

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and i hate you

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StCrimson667

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#32  Edited By StCrimson667

@entropy_aegis:Modern Damian Wayne does not predates Cassandra Cain, this is not the same character, the one we could say predates Cassandra is from an Elseworld and is nothing like this Damian Wayne.

Its like saying that Bruce Wayne from Amalgam is the same Bruce Wayne from DC.

Thank god i am not the only one that hates him for this reasons.

I'm glad I'm not the only one, too. :)

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kbroskywalker

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honestly i'd have nbo problem with damian if he wasn't a brat

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entropy_aegis

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@vitalius said:

@entropy_aegis: Ok then. But i think Cassandra had a better origin since show positives and negatives of being daughter of Lady Shiva and Cain. From what i see from writers, Damian ´s issue was he had to be the best or pressure of being the best because the people who were connected to him.

Cass was revealed to be the daughter of Shiva many years AFTER she was created and that never got acknowledgement from any other writers and has already been retconned to the curb. She's the daughter of Cain and I personally dont see why their origins have to be compared. You think Cass' origin is better that's fine with me really.

@entropy_aegis:Modern Damian Wayne does not predates Cassandra Cain, this is not the same character, the one we could say predates Cassandra is from an Elseworld and is nothing like this Damian Wayne.

Its like saying that Bruce Wayne from Amalgam is the same Bruce Wayne from DC.

Thank god i am not the only one that hates him for this reasons.

There is no similarity between Damian and Cass apart from their League origins and since the concept of a League child of Bruce and Talia predates Cass by years the argument that Damian took Cass's origins is thus incorrect. He's based on the infant from the Son of the Demon storyline not Cass.

Besides the whole LOA thing has been blown out of proportion when it comes to other Bat family characters. Wanna make someone look cool? just give them Ra's blessing,easy peasy.

In Red Robin Ra's wants Tim to be his heir for some reason,even sends someone to rape him.

Jason Todd just gets found by Talia and then she tosses him in to the pit for some motherly reason and then they f*ck because it's what adults do(according to the writer) and he becomes some zen warrior number one for some reason.

That crap reeks of bad fan fiction all designed to ape the success of Damian.

Even Cass had her League origins retconned in to her backstory just a year before Damian was created.

2/3 of these has already been retconned and buried despite being recent developments and in Jasons case it was something only brought up by Tynion whose run was so bad they got Lobdell to come back. Lobdell just gave all of it it a blink and miss acknowledgement in the second or third issue of his RHATO book.

Damain didn't ape anything,THEY aped Damian.

@entropy_aegis: Obviously, you're way more knowledgeable about the comics than I am so I really can't argue with your points. In the end, this is all just my opinion, how I envision the characters and how I would portray them. I'm not claiming to be an expert, these are all really just my impressions and, if you like Damian, then obviously who can see something in him that I can't.

My only response would be that, as shallow as characters like Tim and Jason may have been, they could still be great characters. I think Jason is the perfect example of this. You say how Jason is "the Robin who died and whined about it" and that's probably true, but Jason could be so much more. I didn't mention this because I wanted the post to be about Damian, I really want to see Jason grow beyond that and deal with the trauma of what he went through so he can reconcile with the Batfamily, but that isn't happening because Damian is now taking up most of the story space. And, while Cassandra's story may have come later, their stories are still remarkably similar and I feel that her story is more interesting and handled better. Particularly with Cassandra, I really want to see her used more because I find her a fascinating character. Really, I want to see all these characters evolve, but I don't know that Damian, once he becomes more like Bruce and the rest of the Batfamily, he'll have anything which will distinguish him other than a few small facts and qualities that really don't mean much. If his character arc is going to be a person who moves from a bad person to a good person, I would much prefer to see that done with Jason because I feel that Jason, if written right, could do it better and still be an interesting character whereas I'm not sure that can be done with Damian. But, then again, it's just my opinion. Thanks for the reply, anyways.

Damian isn't taking any story space,he stars in 1 book while Jason stars in 2 and has a mini series. Jason already had his make up with the family and it was unmemorable and forgettable but it's clear that in the long run a Jason Todd who isn't at odds with the family isnt a particularly interesting character and any redemption arc flies in the face of the only Todd story that matters(Under the Red Hood). Failure to make Jason a better character lies on the writers who have worked on him not Damian. This is like me blaming a rival company for putting me out of business when instead I should be doing some introspection about my own products quality.

You're also ignoring one fundamental fact which is that Cass ALREADY has had stories written about her, No Mans Land, an ongoing series,Justice League Elite, a mini series and another mini which I cant fully recall right now,appeared in various issues of Gotham Knight. So if you want to see Cass develop and get fleshed out you can just read those stories.

So lets not act as if Damian never allowed Cass the opportunity to develop and get her own stories. Bottom line she was so defined by her role as Batgirl that she couldn't evolve past that. It's not Damian who's obstructing Cass it's Barbara Gordon and DC will not allow anyone else to replace Babs nor will Babs own fan base which is much greater than that of Cass. Cassandra's competitor is not Damian,they are Barbara Gordon and Stephanie Brown the latter have proven they can be both excellent Batgirls like Cass but unlike Cass they can survive without the mantle. DC doesn't want an assassin Batgirl they want a cute,cuddly Batgirl,you see comics work in cycles and there will come a time when DC will require a different Robin. Whether Damian goes the way of Dick or Tim and Jason is something only time can tell us. But till then let the character run it's course. Tim and Jason have run their course as characters,DC knows it but they want to milk the generation that loves these characters anyways and they'll undoubtedly do the same with Damian(we comic fanboys are very nostalgic and myopic) but even they wont push these characters obsessively to newer generations when they can push newer characters especially the politically correct ones. It's why you'll be seeing Luke Fox and Kate Kane next.

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hatemalingsia

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Ok.

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AllStarSuperman

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#36  Edited By AllStarSuperman

@stcrimson667: Entropy is a nonsensical weirdo don't listen to him.

Jason has grown as a character since the start of the new 52. He is no longer just the angry whiney one, he's gone as far as apologize to Bruce and even state in thought boxes that he used to be pretty crazy. Idk why he gets so much hate for character development. Only fake Jason fans or people like Entropy think that Todd should always be just Batman's failed Robin.

Also, yeah, Damian sux pretty hardcore.

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TheGrayGhost

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#37  Edited By TheGrayGhost

Read comics

Damian's a pretty great Robin, arguably the best , with only Timmy written half as well as Robin for as long

Now if you are looking for a Robin to hate look no further than Jason Todd...a tumblr SJW fangirls idea of what a "cool" character is supposed to be

....although he WAS pretty great for the 15 odd years his costume in a glass cabinet served as a reminder of just what Batman and his allies have to put on the line and sacrifice every time they go out there . Great concept . Pity they ruined it .

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@stcrimson667: Entropy is a nonsensical weirdo don't listen to him.

Jason has grown as a character since the start of the new 52. He is no longer just the angry whiney one, he's gone as far as apologize to Bruce and even state in thought boxes that he used to be pretty crazy. Idk why he gets so much hate for character development. Only fake Jason fans or people like Entropy think that Todd should always be just Batman's failed Robin.

Also, yeah, Damian sux pretty hardcore.

And you're a hypocrite fanboy who runs around posting stupid scans of Jason Todd fighting Supergirl and beating Lady Shiva with one punch in the battle forums,nothing you've ever come up with has any semblance of logic and when you're stupidity is caught and pointed out you just dismiss it with "I was just joking" it's only a joke when you're dealing with someone who's not ignorant and know's what he's talking about.

New-52 Jason Todd has almost 50 issues of critically panned garbage that only blind fanboys and Lobdell supporters love,as a Damian fan I'm willing to acknowledge that the Kubert mini series was rubbish,why the hell is it so difficult for you to admit the same for the Red Hood books?

Todd's character development as you claim is just ripping off another character's story,he hangs out with Roy,bangs Kory,has a crush on Barbara,just happens to know Rose Wilson, just happened to be trained by Shiva,was suffering from venom addiction,does this Jason have ANYTHING of his own

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theMightyMODOK

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Damian is my favorite Robin.

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lxlGiftedlxl

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#40  Edited By lxlGiftedlxl

I heavily disagree. And Damian is awesome.

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SpareHeadOne

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I was sooo annoyed to find Jason becoming a goody goody again in RedHood and the Outlaws. I was hoping he would become a small time agent for vengeance. For instance maybe we see him staking out absolute scumbags that we come to despise, then he knocks them off in a satisfyingly poetic way.

He could offer victims the means to exact their vengeance.

That's what I was hoping for.

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Jason has grown as a character since the start of the new 52. He is no longer just the angry whiney one, he's gone as far as apologize to Bruce and even state in thought boxes that he used to be pretty crazy. Idk why he gets so much hate for character development. Only fake Jason fans or people like Entropy think that Todd should always be just Batman's failed Robin.

I agree. Well, not necessarily with the first point, but I was definitely very happy to see Jason get a lot of character development in Red Hood and the Outlaws and to see that he's become closer to the Batfamily again. My problem with Jason before Red Hood and the Outlaws is that Jason had really just become the stereotypical bad-guy with his only defining feature being that he was a former Robin, he had little depth and little motivation which made him unique, but Red Hood and the Outlaws really brought development and, I think, really tweaked Jason for the better, teaching him to control his anger more. I'd love to see Jason move further, to become a part of the Batfamily again. I'd want him to realize that Batman was right in that killing isn't something a hero should do if he can avoid it, but, of course, still be the sort of person who does things his own way and still has an edginess to him. I know that's a bit of a tall order, but that's where I'd like to see Jason go, eventually. I think the idea of Damian's arc from really not a very nice person to a better, more well-rounded person would be perfect for Jason, many small changes done naturally over his time back with the Batfamily.

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AllStarSuperman

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@stcrimson667: Jason is pretty much back with the Batfamily nowadays, he's helped out several times, like in Court of Owls, Batman Eternal, Batman and Robin Eternal, Endgame IIRC, etc.

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I heavily disagree. And Damian is awesome.

If that's how you feel, then that's great! I'm not here to change your opinion and, if you like him, then more power to you! :)

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@stcrimson667: Jason is pretty much back with the Batfamily nowadays, he's helped out several times, like in Court of Owls, Batman Eternal, Batman and Robin Eternal, Endgame IIRC, etc.

Thanks for sharing this with me, I love these! I'm so happy to see Jason going in the direction I feel he should go in! I love this idea of rehabilitation, the fact Jason acknowledges that he's still a work-in-progress and that he still has a lot to atone for, but he willing to put in the effort to do it. And, not only is he working on himself, but he's also helping other "lost causes" like himself. I'm so happy to see that because I think that's where Jason really sets himself apart from the other Robins, he's gone down that wrong path and made bad decisions, but now is trying to become better so he understands what people like Duela are going through and what they feel like, whereas the others may not. These pages also show just how much he's grown since he's not only willing, but actively trying to help the self-proclaimed daughter of the Joker. Thanks again for sharing these. :)

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@kyrees said:

ohh this is rare. a well thought out hate thread.

I know its so odd,lol.

But i went into this expecting to defend Damian Waynes chrachter, but now you get me rethinking his role and placement within the bat family,lol.

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StCrimson667

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@kyrees said:

ohh this is rare. a well thought out hate thread.

I know its so odd,lol.

But i went into this expecting to defend Damian Waynes chrachter, but now you get me rethinking his role and placement within the bat family,lol.

Well, I'm glad that my arguments made you think. I always try to have a rationale and justification for my opinions so I tried my best to lay them out here. Though, I certainly hope I didn't make you conflicted or confused. :)

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@stcrimson667: Jason is pretty much back with the Batfamily nowadays, he's helped out several times, like in Court of Owls, Batman Eternal, Batman and Robin Eternal, Endgame IIRC, etc.

Yeah because people who read Under the Red Hood and fell in love with Jason when they saw him as this badass who actually uses different methods ,perverts Batman's teachings and makes Batman question himself now go around shooting peoples legs and showing up at thanksgiving all because Damian's run was a success and DC wanted to replicate it with Jason are totally going to be impressed. Talk about missing the point of your own character, Todd wasn't brought back to be redeemed,he should be the Punisher of DC not slightly bad Dick Grayson.

New-52 Jason is a case of writers throwing whatever worked with the other Robins and hoping it'd work with Jason as well.

Starfire was a bust.

Lady Shiva training was a bust.

Barbara Gordon relationship was a bust.

League Chosen One was a bust.

Venom addiction was a bust.

Ravager was a bust.

Every single aspect copied from another Robin.

Roy will be a bust as well count on it.

Joker's Daughter has FAIL written all over her,of all the characters they could've used they went with THIS.