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#51 Posted by Vance Astro (91406 posts) - - Show Bio

@dum529001 said:

@vance_astro:

The krytonians, Superman and Supergirl, went invisible not intangible.

Their intangibility\invisibility is the same thing. It's the same technique that Flash uses. The scan with Doomsday shows that. He doesn't move out of the way of Doomsday's attacks. He's standing in the same spot the entire time.

And please don't fanwank

Please don't condescend to me or try to write me off as a fanboy. I'm not even a Superman fan. Not that it matters.

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#52 Edited by dum529001 (1658 posts) - - Show Bio

@vance_astro:

No, moving faster then the eye can see and going intangible is not the same thing.

I used the term "fanwank", because it seems like interpreting that the characters were going intangible is stretching it.

There's more than one way to illustrate a side-step. And yes, Superman was side-stepping. This is more about how you are familiar with the comic book medium. Superman also leaves after-images due to speed quite frequently but you wouldn't label it as him "going intangible" would you?

I guarantee that if you call the writers and artists up they will tell you its a side-step.I'm not trying to deiceve anyone because i'm trying to degrade Superman and his abilities.

Intangibility is not even one of Superman's powers. Superman's powers and Flash's powers are not the same.

I'm not trying to deny Superman his abilities. I'm just saying that claiming that he can go "intangible" is far-fetched. I'm saying that going intangible is not one of Supeman's abilities.

Have a problem with that? Prove me wrong. Until then, your claim that Superman has intangibility power is very empty.

Saying Superman can go intangible is something that is not clearly seen in comics or even definitively proven in the example you gave.

#53 Edited by joshmightbe (24733 posts) - - Show Bio

The question depends on what feat we're talking about, if its like lifting a few hundred lbs yea it doesn't make much difference in a fight but if you have a dude moving a planet with pure muscle he's definitely going to be able to hit harder than a normal human.

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#54 Edited by Vance Astro (91406 posts) - - Show Bio

@dum529001 said:

@vance_astro:

No, moving faster then the eye can see and going intangible is not the same thing.

I used the term "fanwank", because it seems like interpreting that the characters were going intangible is stretching it.

There's more than one way to illustrate a side-step. And yes, Superman was side-stepping. This is more about how you are familiar with the comic book medium. Superman also leaves after-images due to speed quite frequently but you wouldn't label it as him "going intangible" would you?

I guarantee that if you call the writers and artists up they will tell you its a side-step.I'm not trying to deiceve anyone because i'm trying to degrade Superman and his abilities.

Intangibility is not even one of Superman's powers. Superman's powers and Flash's powers are not the same.

I'm not trying to deny Superman his abilities. I'm just saying that claiming that he can go "intangible" is far-fetched. I'm saying that going intangible is not one of Supeman's abilities.

Have a problem with that? Prove me wrong. Until then, your claim that Superman has intangibility power is very empty.

Saying Superman can go intangible is something that is not clearly seen in comics or even definitively proven in the example you gave.

You used the term "fankwank" to try and discredit me. It's saying that i'm a fanboy without saying it directly. Which also suggests my opinion is invalid because I have a personal stake in making Superman look better. I don't. We interpret this scan differently. Intangibility isn't one of the Flash's powers either. His ability to go intangible is a super speed related ability which was the point I was trying to make. It's not unique to the Flash. Other speedsters even outside of DC comics have done this. I know what after image is, even characters like Spider-Man, Daredevil, Black Panther, Captain America, Wolverine etc. show after-images in their movements. If in this scan Superman is supposed to be sidestepping, why didn't they just show that? There is more than one way to illustrate a side step but I don't think what I showed for Superman is one of them. In the scan where he's "dodging" the projectile from Doomsday you can see his image splitting but he's not moving anywhere, that type of illustration as far as i've seen would be used if Superman was dodging multiple attacks but he's only dodging a single attack in that panel.

There is no way to prove or disprove the context of a scan if their is nothing stated or no visual evidence on panel. Unless my interpretation simply doesn't make sense (which it does). All you can really say is that we disagree on what actually happened in the scan, you have no proof that I'm wrong, everything you are saying is how YOU interpreted the scan, not fact.

Oh and BTW don't suggest i'm not "familiar with the comic book medium" or that you're more familiar with it than I am because we disagree.

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#55 Edited by dum529001 (1658 posts) - - Show Bio

@vance_astro:

Like I said before, What I said was not to rain on anyone's parade. I'm trying to deceive anyone in order to make Superman look less than what he is.

If you think every instance of a character striking at another character that is shown as a blur is show of intangibility then you can expect me to question your judgement and knowledge of comic book illustration.

I'm not insulting anyone's knowledge of comic books. I'm just 100 percent certain that I know what i'm talking about in this case. That's all.

By the way....

And there is also a difference between you moving through something and things moving through you. Do you know what i mean by that?

Here's what I mean.

Now we know that nothing can exist in the exact same space, right? There are two methods to phase through something:

A powerhouse's fist can move through a wall if strong enough, and subsequently, blow it away. Moving through something that has the same inertia force as you as impossible to do by force. The object you pass through must always have less resistance-force(inertia) than the force you're exerting or else you won't be able to blow it away and pass through it.

A cloud of air does need to accelerate in order to move through something because its not doing so force but by shifting its molecules around.

See the difference in phasing methods?

#56 Posted by Vance Astro (91406 posts) - - Show Bio

@dum529001 said:

If you think every instance of a character striking at another character that is shown as a blur is show of intangibility then you can expect me to question your judgement and knowledge of comic book illustration.

You're taking what i'm saying about THIS scan an applying it to other hypothetical scans. Maybe if it appeared Superman was in front of Doomsday but he had actually moved somewhere else I could go with what you're saying but as you can see in every panel he appears to be right in front of Doomsday. In the panel I mentioned in my last post where he's "dodging" Doomsday's blast, the action on the image would suggest that Superman is moving multiple times but he's dodging a SINGLE attack, why would he need to move multiple times to dodge one thing? To me that panel seems to suggest vibration and not the action of Superman actually moving somewhere.

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#57 Edited by dum529001 (1658 posts) - - Show Bio

@vance_astro:

You can't help but notice that Superman was moving around though.

You can't cut that out of the equation.

#58 Posted by Vance Astro (91406 posts) - - Show Bio

@dum529001 said:

@vance_astro:

You can't help but notice that Superman was moving around though.

You can't cut that out of the equation.

I don't think he moved anywhere. I think he was intangible by way of a super-speed related technique and I think the panel I mentioned makes that clear.

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#59 Edited by dum529001 (1658 posts) - - Show Bio

@vance_astro:

You don't see him moving? It's right there in the page. Just look at whole page and there it is.

Like I said, There is reasonable doubt to this claim of "intangibility". It's not to rain on anyone's parade. It's just seems like a stretch because what you're giving as proof is full of holes.The kind of proof I want is the completely clear and undeniable kind. Its does have to be spelled out for me like i'm a child, but it needs to be clear.

I don't like being unsure and just try say something is a fact without solid evidence backing it up. I don't mean to be a downer but the example you've show as proof is not irrefutable.

Solid evidence, not just "evidence", is what is required to claim something is fact.

Anything can be show as "evidence" but not all things that can be shown as "evidence" is truly solid.

I don't need you to throw a mountain of scans at for evidence, but I do need solid evidence.

#60 Edited by Vance Astro (91406 posts) - - Show Bio

@dum529001 said:

@vance_astro:

You don't see him moving? It's right there in the page. Just look at whole page and there it is.

No, actually I DON'T see him moving. Accept for when he punches Doomsday.

@dum529001 said:

It's just seems like a stretch because what you're giving as proof is full of holes.

Actually there isn't any holes regarding the scan that was posted. "Hole" suggests that there is an inconsistency or a logical flaw, but their isn't.

@dum529001 said:

Solid evidence, not just "evidence", is what is required to claim something is fact.

Anything can be show as "evidence" but not all things that can be shown as "evidence" is truly solid.

I don't need you to throw a mountain of scans at for evidence, but I do need solid evidence.

This is the only instance I know of where Superman has done this. As I said when you accused me of "fanwanking" i'm not a Superman fan. To be honest I only mentioned it because I figured it was common knowledge that Superman could do that. If you don't want to believe that the scan I provided PROVES Superman can do it, that's up to you. From my perspective you said Superman couldn't do something and I provided a scan that shows he can.

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#61 Edited by LimpoyzLoan (1646 posts) - - Show Bio

@gungunw: Exactly, how did he get more durable?

#62 Edited by pooty (11722 posts) - - Show Bio

@limpoyzloan: can you give specific examples of where people think feats = combat? what comicvine battles have you seen that makes you say that?

#63 Posted by comicace3 (6593 posts) - - Show Bio

This is basically true. I was taught by my master that you don't necessarily need to be stronger than the opponent to beat him. And he's like 5'5 and kicks my butt all the time.

#64 Posted by LimpoyzLoan (1646 posts) - - Show Bio

@vance_astro: I wouldn't call that intangibility. It's just molecular phasing.

#65 Posted by Vance Astro (91406 posts) - - Show Bio

@limpoyzloan said:

@vance_astro: I wouldn't call that intangibility. It's just molecular phasing.

I didn't know those weren't the same thing. Intangibility is described as "the ability to pass through solid matter", wouldn't "molecular phasing" be exactly that?

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#66 Posted by LimpoyzLoan (1646 posts) - - Show Bio

@gungunw: How was he less powerful? Before the Mongul II training? That didn't increase his durability in any way. Only his strength and speed.

#67 Posted by GunGunW (1006 posts) - - Show Bio

@limpoyzloan: Before writers made him survive nuclear blasts, then he could survive planet and supernova plus. Everything changed after the crisis.

#68 Edited by ilikedonuts (2365 posts) - - Show Bio

Strength might not be the only factor for punchin' power, but it is still a huge factor for it.

Also Bruce Lee was really strong himself too, just wanted ta point that out. Stronger than most powerlifters out there.

#69 Edited by green_skaar (4750 posts) - - Show Bio

I agree full-heartily. Environmental feats are often way beyond battle feats and rarely indicative of battle.

#70 Edited by Bruxae (14008 posts) - - Show Bio

For me feats doesnt necessarily mean combat strength but they serve as more of a benchmark showing off what a character could -potentially- do. Sadly as comic fans that is really all we have to go on when making a comparison.

One rule everyone should follow in life is knowing that nothing is ever 100% no matter how likely.

#71 Posted by Guardiandevil83 (6083 posts) - - Show Bio
#72 Edited by PhoenixoftheTides (3628 posts) - - Show Bio

Agreed. Hence why I realized that the Battle Forum was largely a time sink and haven't really interacted with those topics for years lol.

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#73 Edited by MaccyD (5111 posts) - - Show Bio

@dum529001: @vance_astro: Superman used to be able to go intangible, but it has since been retconned. Flash is meant to have taught him the basics of it, though it is very difficult as he can only obtain the bare minimum speed to do it.

@limpoyzloan- I think it's less about Bruce Lee hitting harder and more that he knows where to hit.

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#74 Edited by Vance Astro (91406 posts) - - Show Bio

@maccyd said:

@dum529001: @vance_astro: Superman used to be able to go intangible, but it has since been retconned. Flash is meant to have taught him the basics of it, though it is very difficult as he can only obtain the bare minimum speed to do it.

That was my only point. Whether it was retconned because of the New 52 or whatever else doesn't change the fact that, that's a speed based ability and Superman COULD do it.

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#75 Posted by JetiiMitra (8871 posts) - - Show Bio

As far as comic books go, feats do = combat.

#76 Posted by Web_Flotsam (1118 posts) - - Show Bio

Wouldn't Doomsday hurting somebody with at least star level durability mean he's got punches on that level?