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#1 Posted by LimpoyzLoan (1646 posts) - - Show Bio

I know many people bring up feats for combat, like one shot durability feats, lifting feats and traverse speed feats = How well they would do in a fight. But the fact is, ACTUAL combat feats need to be accounted for.

STRENGTH:

So many people have the assumption that for characters who have super strength, that just because the character can lift more, means that they can hit harder. Sadly, that's not the case. I can use Arnold Schwarzenegger vs Bruce Lee and it's obvious who can lift more. But who's the one who's going to hit harder. Many people may disagree, but it is not correlated to how fast, or how hard a character can hit. Although, grip strength can possibly be correlated to lifting strength. But people rarely take that into account.

SPEED:

This doesn't apply to characters who can move instantly without the need to accelerate, like the Flash. However, let's use Superman for instance. He needs to increase his acceleration and velocity over time to get to high amounts of speed. He is restricted by physics (Or DC's version of physics anyway), unlike Flash with the Speed Force. These two types of speed should be separated as they are not the same things. So, Eventual Traverse Speed =/= Instantaneous Combat Speed.

DURABILITY:

So here's my theory. (Using Superman as an example again) Superman has been shown to survive supernovae which is impressive and it does give a sort of limit to his durability. However, think of it like this, did Doomsday have enough power to destroy supernovae? No, using his attacks, he eventually got Superman's durability down. What people should have taken into account is the force of Doomsday's attacks and how much Superman can take before finally collapsing. I'm not saying have a full blown math session determining how hard Doomsday can hit, but give some examples of how hard he can hit.

MISCELLANEOUS:

Some other factors to take into account:

Skill, Combat Education, Strategy, Vulnerability to some elements of the opponent, etc.

Anyway, just thought I'd give an opinion on how fights should be. Unless it's clearly spite.

#2 Posted by New_World_Order (13277 posts) - - Show Bio

Agreed.

#3 Posted by PowerHerc (84956 posts) - - Show Bio

True, all true.

Perhaps those people whom equate strength to combat skill have never actually been in a hand-to-hand fight,

#4 Posted by Pfcoolio14 (1138 posts) - - Show Bio

This is a bit graphic but

I guess it applies

#5 Posted by NorrinBoltagonPrime21 (6060 posts) - - Show Bio

Agreed, people tend to forget forget details like fighting ability and reaction time which can be more important than a lifting feat.

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#6 Posted by ccraft (5384 posts) - - Show Bio

Um really? If a character beats Hulk or something that becomes a feat, which shows his strength, speed, durability, or even if he just outwitted him like Deadpool did to get Hulks blood. So your not making much sense.

But I guess your only referring to Superman or something.

#7 Posted by Vance Astro (91286 posts) - - Show Bio

STRENGTH:

So many people have the assumption that for characters who have super strength, that just because the character can lift more, means that they can hit harder. Sadly, that's not the case. I can use Arnold Schwarzenegger vs Bruce Lee and it's obvious who can lift more. But who's the one who's going to hit harder. Many people may disagree, but it is not correlated to how fast, or how hard a character can hit. Although, grip strength can possibly be correlated to lifting strength. But people rarely take that into account.

Actually I think this IS the case in comics. When you're comparing two or more characters who only have their strength as proof of their attack power you can't really make a case for the one who has the lesser lifting,pulling,moving feats. The difference between Arnold & Bruce is Bruce is a martial artist. Alot of characters with super strength aren't skilled nor do they have any powers that would give any boost to how hard they hit. You could also say Captain America lifts more than Iron Fist but Iron Fist hits harder but I don't think anyone would ever make a case that Cap hits harder because Iron Fist is not only a martial artists whose attack power is increased by a large margin with the use of chi, which is something that even people who don't read Iron Fist probably know but he has the feats to back up how hard he hits. I think it all depends on the characters we're talking about.


SPEED:

This doesn't apply to characters who can move instantly without the need to accelerate, like the Flash. However, let's use Superman for instance. He needs to increase his acceleration and velocity over time to get to high amounts of speed. He is restricted by physics (Or DC's version of physics anyway), unlike Flash with the Speed Force. These two types of speed should be separated as they are not the same things. So, Eventual Traverse Speed =/= Instantaneous Combat Speed.

Wait what? Superman and the Flash's speed don't work the same way?

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#8 Edited by LimpoyzLoan (1646 posts) - - Show Bio

@ccraft: No I'm not. And that'd be considered power scaling. Just because he can beat a character, doesn't mean he is stronger than that character and can do anything that character can do.

#9 Posted by LimpoyzLoan (1646 posts) - - Show Bio

@vance_astro While skill is a factor, as I stated above, striking power is worth mentioning because lifting strength doesn't mean that you are stronger in combat per se. The reason Superman can't punch with the same force as he can lift, is because he is restricted by the joints in his arms which are preventing him from punching even harder. Same thing with Hulk and those other non-energy fueled powerhouses. Unless, there is an outward energy that is acting upon it like the Power Cosmic for some Marvel Characters, or Ki for Dragon Ball characters, or some other outward force like the Speed Force for the Flash. How do you think Flash hits hard enough to compete with Superman when he doesn't even lift as much as him without vibrating his molecules? Now as for non energy powerhouses vs non energy powerhouses, those can't just be entirely decided by lifting strength, although you get a general idea of who's stronger, but there's still chances that one can hit harder, because he also can exert a lot more force if his muscles are more flexible and less bulky. Mind you, I could be strong enough to lift about 200, but there can always be a kid who can lift 150, but can possess more striking power than me. And also as for the Arnold vs Bruce Lee comment, Bruce Lee doesn't have any sort of outward energy to enhance how hard he punches (Unless he knows chi enhancement attacks or something). He just possesses skill and fighting prowness.

As for the speed comment, they are different because, although both characters need to accelerate to eventually get to their max speed, Flash in combat is almost instantaneous. Because unlike Flash, Superman is still turned down by physics in the DC Universe. Flash is free of those restrictions due to the Speed Force. Same thing with DBZ characters. You never see them need to increase their velocity overtime in combat. They just move so fast they disappear and reappear without the need to steadily increase their velocity overtime, unlike Superman. (Not trying to turn this into a DBZ thread, just using as an example.)

#10 Posted by Teerack (7048 posts) - - Show Bio

Because people are stupid.

#11 Edited by Dernman (15222 posts) - - Show Bio

I think this is being too simplistic when applying these facts and the normal factors no longer apply when stats far exceed normal human conditions to the superhuman level.

#12 Posted by PrinceAragorn1 (18757 posts) - - Show Bio

Though It's actually to stop people from over the top speculation, it's annoying when people deny basic 1+1=2 because it wasn't 'shown'..

#13 Posted by BlueLantern1995 (2448 posts) - - Show Bio

True, all true.

Perhaps those people whom equate strength to combat skill have never actually been in a hand-to-hand fight,

#14 Edited by frogdog (3274 posts) - - Show Bio

STRENGTH:

So many people have the assumption that for characters who have super strength, that just because the character can lift more, means that they can hit harder. Sadly, that's not the case. I can use Arnold Schwarzenegger vs Bruce Lee and it's obvious who can lift more. But who's the one who's going to hit harder. Many people may disagree, but it is not correlated to how fast, or how hard a character can hit. Although, grip strength can possibly be correlated to lifting strength. But people rarely take that into account.

This comparison falls apart when your dealing with something that's beyond human standards. For all the skill Bruce Lee has, he would lose in a bare knuckle fight with a bear.

#15 Posted by Vance Astro (91286 posts) - - Show Bio

@limpoyzloan said:

@vance_astro While skill is a factor, as I stated above, striking power is worth mentioning because lifting strength doesn't mean that you are stronger in combat per se. The reason Superman can't punch with the same force as he can lift, is because he is restricted by the joints in his arms which are preventing him from punching even harder. Same thing with Hulk and those other non-energy fueled powerhouses. Unless, there is an outward energy that is acting upon it like the Power Cosmic for some Marvel Characters, or Ki for Dragon Ball characters, or some other outward force like the Speed Force for the Flash. How do you think Flash hits hard enough to compete with Superman when he doesn't even lift as much as him without vibrating his molecules? Now as for non energy powerhouses vs non energy powerhouses, those can't just be entirely decided by lifting strength, although you get a general idea of who's stronger, but there's still chances that one can hit harder, because he also can exert a lot more force if his muscles are more flexible and less bulky. Mind you, I could be strong enough to lift about 200, but there can always be a kid who can lift 150, but can possess more striking power than me. And also as for the Arnold vs Bruce Lee comment, Bruce Lee doesn't have any sort of outward energy to enhance how hard he punches (Unless he knows chi enhancement attacks or something). He just possesses skill and fighting prowness.

I agree with you, i'm just saying it depends on the characters. Alot of times you can prove who hits harder based on how much more they lift. Superman's punching power may not be accurate to how much he lifts but those lifting feats prove he's stronger and hits harder than the Hulk.

As for the speed comment, they are different because, although both characters need to accelerate to eventually get to their max speed, Flash in combat is almost instantaneous. Because unlike Flash, Superman is still turned down by physics in the DC Universe. Flash is free of those restrictions due to the Speed Force. Same thing with DBZ characters. You never see them need to increase their velocity overtime in combat. They just move so fast they disappear and reappear without the need to steadily increase their velocity overtime, unlike Superman. (Not trying to turn this into a DBZ thread, just using as an example.)

Superman is instantaneous in combat. I don't know what you're talking about regarding physics but as far as i've ever seen Superman may not be as fast as the Flash but their superhuman speed works exactly the same. I've seen Superman fight at great speeds. He's also been able to copy Flash's vibrating technique which causes him to phase and become virtually invisible and or intangible.

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#16 Posted by Perpetr8rMike (590 posts) - - Show Bio

Here comes the 'You should Worship Superman because Superman is Superman' Thing again.

#17 Edited by AweSam (7375 posts) - - Show Bio

Because people get desperate in an argument. Feats = proof of claim. The opposite can't disprove, therefore it's true. That pretty much sums up the entire battle forum.

#18 Posted by ccraft (5384 posts) - - Show Bio

@limpoyzloan: 1. I didn't say that 2. Some characters don't have to be on the others power scale, some weaker characters can take on other powerful characters and win by their skill or wits. I don't get what your saying, I'm saying that a characters past combats (if their truly great) becomes there feats. It seems like your going against your title "Why Do People Think Feats = Combat?" and saying feats do equal combat. Unless your saying that just because a character is stronger than the other one, that he would win no matter what the other characters feats were.

#19 Edited by dum529001 (1635 posts) - - Show Bio

@limpoyzloan:

The Physics of The Human & Superhuman body

Muscle power is all about the speed of muscle contraction. Muscles put out power by stretching and then rapidly shortening like rubber bands.

Force directly correlates to an object's rate of motion/speed.

When you throw a punch or a kick, the power of the strike directly correlates to its rate of motion/speed.

Hulk has great power and his body weight is little in comparison to that power, therefore, he has great speed.

Great power = Great speed

And of course, Hulk's muscle and skeletal tissue and all his other body tissues are built with the durability that is necessary to withstand putting out such great forces. If he couldn't, his body would fall apart.

Superhuman bodies are going to be more dense, denser than a normal human body, which allows it to handle the pressures it puts on itself as it goes against the force of other objects, able to withstand their own rebounding force or forces that are akin to theirs. As we know Hulk, body is far denser than a normal human's.

It's the same on a human level. When you work-out constantly enough your muscles thicken. The reason muscles thicken when you workout is so they can exert more energy without being torn up in the process. The body is adjusting to the constant and abnormal energy output of the muscles by making them tougher to keep them from getting torn up.

THE DEFINITION OF "FORCE" IS THE OBJECT'S MASS MULTIPLIED BY ITS RATE OF MOTION.

FORCE IS THE ACCELERATION OF MASS. HOW MUCH FORCE PRODUCED DEPENDS ON AN OBJECT'S MASS AND ITS ACCELERATION.

F= m x a

There is no seperation to be made between "force" and "speed."

And no, Bruce Lee does not hit harder than Arnold. Bruce Lee may be a better fighter but Arnold has better muscular conditioning, which allows him to hit harder with greater ease and with less stress on his muscles.

#20 Posted by dum529001 (1635 posts) - - Show Bio

@vance_astro:

Superman does not go intangible. Can you show where he has gone intangible?

#21 Posted by Vance Astro (91286 posts) - - Show Bio

@dum529001 said:

@vance_astro:

Superman does not go intangible. Can you show where he has gone intangible?

Supergirl can do it too...

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#22 Posted by Vance Astro (91286 posts) - - Show Bio

@dum529001 said:

And no, Bruce Lee does not hit harder than Arnold.

Sure he does.

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#23 Posted by dum529001 (1635 posts) - - Show Bio

@vance_astro:

That's not Superman going intangible. That is Superman sidestepping and creating and after-image due to the speed he's moving at. Doomsday is left to punch an after-image, instead of Superman. It's an illustration image-effect that's common enough in western comics and even more common in Japanese comics.

Giving that as example of Superman having intangabilty is just fanwanking. I can guess who gave you that as an example of intangabilty. Was it Toptom or Lvenger?

Everyone know he can go invisible due to speed. That applies to many other characters as well.

By the way, why can't Wondergirl see Supergirl when they are both on the same physical level?

#24 Edited by INFINITE_DOOM (273 posts) - - Show Bio

A punch's force starts from your feat/stands to your waist to the space you have to throw a punch, as soon as your two feet leave the ground the strength of your punch gets reduced by about half.

#25 Edited by Pyrogram (40775 posts) - - Show Bio

A punch's force starts from your feat/stands to your waist to the space you have to throw a punch, as soon as your two feet leave the ground the strength of your punch gets reduced by about half.

Lolnope

#26 Posted by INFINITE_DOOM (273 posts) - - Show Bio

@pyrogram said:

@infinite_doom said:

A punch's force starts from your feat/stands to your waist to the space you have to throw a punch, as soon as your two feet leave the ground the strength of your punch gets reduced by about half.

Lolnope

Idk thats what i learned in my years of boxing

#27 Posted by Pyrogram (40775 posts) - - Show Bio
#29 Posted by INFINITE_DOOM (273 posts) - - Show Bio

@pyrogram:True, but when it comes down to pure force boxers throw the best punch, now if we are talking about doing damage with different strikes like Chinese fist fighting it has to do more with placement and technique notstrength or force. A boxer's punch uses one's strength and body mass to the best of the fighter's capability.

#30 Posted by Pyrogram (40775 posts) - - Show Bio

@infinite_doom: Just no. Arrogance + Ignorance is abundant in your post.

#32 Posted by INFINITE_DOOM (273 posts) - - Show Bio

@pyrogram:Well i,m not a boxer it was just part of my thai so idk what you mean arrogance, i'm talking only from my personal experience with fighters from different practices so you calling me ignorant is just wrong. You've just been telling me i'm wrong but given me no reasons why. I'm assuming you have first hand experience to be calling me out.

#33 Edited by Pyrogram (40775 posts) - - Show Bio

@infinite_doom: I would, but I cannot be asked. Wing Chun Long punch is more simple than a boxing punch, but in my experience, Is stronger+faster+uses more of the body+momentum.

#34 Posted by INFINITE_DOOM (273 posts) - - Show Bio

@pyrogram: The IP man punch is not stronger than a right hook from a boxer,first of all he is a kung fu master he is more skilled than a random person throwing that punch which relies on multiple punches to do damage, his punch is faster but not stronger or more skilled they are equal don't demean one fighting style for another. I respect the IP man but I'm going with the Mike Tyson right hook and we are only arguing a single punch not the whole practice because i would choose kung fu over boxing.

#35 Posted by Pyrogram (40775 posts) - - Show Bio

@infinite_doom: I am not talking about the "Ip man" punch, that is not even a punch. And he is not a Kung Fu master...He is a Wing Chun master, you don't even know what Wing Chun is clearly.

#37 Posted by INFINITE_DOOM (273 posts) - - Show Bio

@pyrogram:Wing Chung is categorized as Kung fu dosent matter if its norther or southern style its all the same so said my main man Jackie Chan when asked about it. I have never been hit by a Chinese fist fighter but i have by boxers,karate,thai, and even kicked by taekwondo guys and in my personal experience and two broken ribs and loosing vision in my left eye boxers throw the hardest one motion punches.

#38 Edited by Pyrogram (40775 posts) - - Show Bio

@infinite_doom: I am ending this now. Taekwondo is not even Chinese. You clearly know nothing about Martial Arts, they are not the same at-all.

#39 Posted by LimpoyzLoan (1646 posts) - - Show Bio

@ccraft: Of course not! That's not what I'm saying at all. But it's not like the battle forums are gonna account for plot devices. What I'm saying is that if you have higher striking power and such, you're gonna have a higher possibility of winning the fight. If Deadpool somehow knocks out Hulk in a fight, it doesn't mean he is stronger, rather that he has more skill and he used the enemy's weakness and other factors to his advantage. What I meant is that using lifting strength doesn't mean the enemy hits harder, or that just because Silver Surfer can move at 9 billion times the speed of light in terms of travel speed, doesn't necessarily mean he can't be tagged by characters who don't have the same traverse speed in terms of combat. And as for durability, I was saying that although using one-shot durability feats can be helpful if we're using a character with an insane amount of firepower, doesn't mean that the character is just going to ditch the fight as soon as he finds out the character survived said attack. If he uses a variety of attacks to cut down the opponents durability bit by bit, he can ensure a victory. It just depends on how powerful the characters attacks are. Of course, if we're using someone that proves to not have ANYTHING that can hurt said character because he has a weak amount of force, then it is painfully obvious.

#40 Posted by Mortium (666 posts) - - Show Bio

@pyrogram: Where is taekwondo from? I have learned basics from several martial arts but never got into the background of them.

#41 Posted by hart7668 (2294 posts) - - Show Bio

Where did a discussion about martial arts come from?

Feats are generally used to discuss the different variables in a fight because that's all we have to go on. If we were just going to throw feats out the window, then it becomes pure speculation in which case, no one wins. Why does it matter that certain characters have to fight each other and produce a victor? I dunno? Because we're all fanatics (which is where the term "fan" comes from, I believe) that like to stick to certain fictional characters that we either want to be or can relate to and as a result grow an irrational attachment to said characters thereby creating further irrational senses of superiority due to our own human nature that instigates heated debates about which character can kick which character's buttocks because in the end deep down we want to be better than everybody else......*run on rant/statement mode now OFFLINE*

#42 Edited by Vance Astro (91286 posts) - - Show Bio

@dum529001 said:

@vance_astro:

That's not Superman going intangible. That is Superman sidestepping and creating and after-image due to the speed he's moving at. Doomsday is left to punch an after-image, instead of Superman. It's an illustration image-effect that's common enough in western comics and even more common in Japanese comics.

Giving that as example of Superman having intangabilty is just fanwanking. I can guess who gave you that as an example of intangabilty. Was it Toptom or Lvenger?

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#43 Posted by Vance Astro (91286 posts) - - Show Bio
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#44 Edited by Mortium (666 posts) - - Show Bio
#45 Posted by Vance Astro (91286 posts) - - Show Bio

@mortium said:

Ah. Thank you. Do you practice any martial arts?

No, problem. I don't practice any martial arts but I always wanted to.

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#46 Edited by Auralaria (479 posts) - - Show Bio

Well, there's different kinds of feats, I think. This thread lists specifically strength and speed and stuff, but there's also combat feats. Like taskmaster being able to keep up with Captain America, Daredevil, Beast, and Black Panther at once and beat them (just an example, hypothetical), and other such similar feats, and we figure by that kind of combat feat, plus a few other things and factors, he could probably keep up with and beat the ninja turtles as well (PIS off). And those other things may come into play as well.

#47 Edited by dum529001 (1635 posts) - - Show Bio

@hart7668 said:

Where did a discussion about martial arts come from?

Feats are generally used to discuss the different variables in a fight because that's all we have to go on. If we were just going to throw feats out the window, then it becomes pure speculation in which case, no one wins. Why does it matter that certain characters have to fight each other and produce a victor? I dunno? Because we're all fanatics (which is where the term "fan" comes from, I believe) that like to stick to certain fictional characters that we either want to be or can relate to and as a result grow an irrational attachment to said characters thereby creating further irrational senses of superiority due to our own human nature that instigates heated debates about which character can kick which character's buttocks because in the end deep down we want to be better than everybody else......*run on rant/statement mode now OFFLINE*

Ain't that the truth?!

#48 Posted by Vance Astro (91286 posts) - - Show Bio

So there is no further questions about Superman's intangibility as copied from the Flash?

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#49 Posted by dum529001 (1635 posts) - - Show Bio

@vance_astro:

The krytonians, Superman and Supergirl, went invisible not intangible.

When have they ever gone intangible? And please don't fanwank.

#50 Posted by GunGunW (997 posts) - - Show Bio

Superman was less powerful during Death of Superman so the durability example is kind of moot.

Use other examples, Superman isn't the only character this applies to.