Why do people say Geoff Johns hates Batman?

@pperspectiveandreality:

I don't know, I don't regularly read Batman, but again, she's not a detective, she's a fighter. Her tactical abilities are only displayed when she fights, she doesn't go looking for criminals.

We'll just have to agree to disagree on Clark's desire to learn then, we'll get nowhere.

Superman's no kill policy is PIS, that's why no one thinks Luthor would do well against a bloodlusted Superman. As far as Batman is concerned, you believing he would be able to prep for someone who can hit him millions of times before he moves and him not being able to stop all crime in Gotham is just lunacy. Prepping for Diana and Flash is so far past PIS, I don't even have words for it. Even if I humor you and say that Batman is so brilliant he can prep for anything. Batman trying to fight Diana would be like Stephen Hawkins trying to fight Mike Tyson...without his wheelchair. The level of disbelief required for me to believe that Batman can prep for speedsters with a pop in their punch Wonder Woman or is not possible.

First of all, I don't know how we moved past Barry being better able to retrieve information to this, but I wish to bring around full circle. The people who hide intell aren't lunatics, Bruce's expertise on lunatics doesn't make him better suited for intell retrieval. Barry's understanding of the criminal mind isn't something I want to engage in any further either. You seem to think Batman is the best at everything and that the rest of the JL are just punchers without a brain. That's probably why you can't understand what Bat-God is, that's Batman to you.

Well, your idea of a "good" Batman is kinda Bat-God. So...

After reading JL31, I know some people are going to be critical of Johns still.

@superguy1591: Just out of curiousity, are you for or against Johns' JL?

@maccyd: I wish he would stop writing Superman out--which it looks like he's about to do again--but, other than that, I'm pro-Geoff Johns as long as he doesn't get too Silver Age-y.

The tension is real.

Annnh every character is depicted differently depending on the writer, so I kind of expect one writer to write a character weaker or stronger than another.

What do you guys think of his JL Batman now?

Cuz Hal Doesn't take Bruces BullSh*t

It's a bad portrayal of Batman.

Not as bad as Frank Miller's, though (All-Staf Batman and Robin).

@superguy1591: I bump this troll.

When the majority of evidence for a position comes from one writer who is accused of not writing characters well, you have proved the point of accusers.

Read Brubaker, O'Niell, Adams, Infantino, Daniel, Moench, Dixon, and Azarello's work on Batman to get a really good idea why Johns work is inconsistent.

O'Neill, Adams, Infantino, Julie Schwarz, Moench, Dixon, Loeb, and Brubaker and Ricks account for most Batman core ties from the late 1960s to the early 2000s. You can even throw in Alan Moore's work on Batman.

The 40 year stretch of time had Batman as an elite martial artist with genius intellect better able to confront traditional criminals and low level metahumans than standard police and militaries.

None of these writers had him made out to be able to contribute to something so high power as the justice League.

Johns does not make Batman more human. Dennis O'Niell did that from 1972-2000. He literally throws out every aspect of Batman and substitutes his own.

If his new Earth One Batman actually behaved like a person this would be a discussion. But Johns has only one note characters in the Justice League and in Earth One Batman. His insane Bruce Wayne is only a long string of tv derived stereotypes of rich people and the mentally ill. His Gotham is just a collection of stereotypes of urban decay. His resolution is the stereotype appeal to popular blood justice and one man lunch mob.

If people actually read Morrison's run on JLA it would be obvious that Batman is only Batgod in a pantheon of more powerful god level beings. Batman is the trickster god of the JLA because he is so much less physically and spiritually. Morrison makes it abundantly clear that Superman is laughably smarter than ANY and ALL human characters in DC.

WITHOUT EXCEPTION. Yes. Morrison made Superman smarter than Lex luthor. A lot smarter. the gap was worse than Red Son.

So I can with confidence call VS on those who feel that Johns has an authentic or respectful take on batman.

If he threw out the origen made by Bob Kane, and the in Canon connection to Kane in his Elseworlds; why should we assume that he is not undermining the character?

His claim of realism is a lie. the mental illness claim falls apart when further stress is applied to the ill person after they have had a psychotic event. Unless the person were psychopathic, in which case they would be absent of even minor neuroses causes by traumatic events.

I have family with PTSD and have actually had treatment for mental health issues. His claims and execution are offensive trash.

@senglord: unbump me then because I never said Geoff writes a more human Batman, I said Geoff doesn't write Bat-God, which is when writers write Batman up at the expense of other superheroes. Like Snyder writing Batman being able to shoot down Flash or some dumb shield that blocks Superman's heat-vision when Superman's heat-vision is hotter than the sun.

Like Timm writing Batman be the one person to evade Darkseid's omega beams when there are speedsters like Flash running around or Superman, with his great speed, couldn't. Or Batman being able to make Darkseid stumble from a kick.

That is what I mean by Bat-God. I would never claim to that a writer writes Batman well in anything since I rarely ever read Batman books. The only time I read Batman is when he interacts with everyone else.

I don't hate or even dislike Batman, I just don't like when other characters are written badly.

@superguy1591: then you should hate Johns writing of the Justice League.

No one is written as they are in their own books except his babies.

And the only thing I get from your post is Wa wa wa humans do not belong in the League wa wa wa.

And, as usual, context is ignored. Characters performance in their own series is ignored. To justify whining.

@senglord: it seems youre the one thats whining, im glad johns hates him, maybe we can get some stories not centered around him

I don't think he hates Batman, but I don't think he really knows how to write the character to make him relevant to the League.

I don't read DC but hasn't it been said that under Johns run... Batman was a d**k

Whining is described as to give or make a long, high-pitched complaining cry or sound. The majority of posters that hate Batman admit that Johns has a different take on Batman than is common to the New 52 and before. I simply cite the wider catalog to establish that his Batman is at direct odds with his portrayal by the regarded writers of the character. Kevin Smith writes a better Batman than Johns. And there has not been a worse writer for Wonder Woman in 70+ years. It is that d&mn bad.

This guy was whining about Bat-God throughout this thread. I merely pointed out the flagrant Bull$hit in his every single post with almost a half century of consistent portrayals. The writers I mentioned toned batman down from his Silver Age know it all incarnation. Which was a weaker version of his Golden Age metahuman iteration. He then complains about Bat-God. Most writers of JLA used a consistent Batman based on the comics for most years before Waid and Morrison revived the Silver Age interpretation of the JLA.

Johns has $hit over every character that is best received by writing styles that he has demonstrated no aptitude for. Iron Man is a thinking character. Johns IM from Avengers was not.

@superguy1591 whining comes from a human having a role besides dying...it is idiotic considering that Batman has made more money for DC the past three decades than all the rest combined. So real money keeps Batman alive. it is a comic book designed to make money. If the most popular heroes are not there, then no one will buy the book. No Batman in JLA, 40% loss of sales. I honestly loved looking at how close Batman and the Outsiders did in the 1980s compared to the JLA. a lackluster Batman and a cast of not standard unknowns was taking a competitive chunk out of the JLA sales.

The johns version of Batman is a negation of every characteristic that defines the character from the writers mentioned. If the human and realistic interpretations were the exclusive barometer for a Batman characterization, then Johns goes against 40 years of content. If we include All the major writers, then Johns goes against 70 years of content.

IMHO Johns does not seem to hate the character of Batman. If you read his work for DC especially, you will see that his reinvention of characters takes stale characters and uses similar character development techniques first used in Batman and Detective Comics. The relationship between Sinestro/Hal Jordan and Arthur/Manta and Flash/Reverse Flash uses the same psychological motif brought out by O'Niell with Raa's/Batman and Batman/Joker and Batman/Two-Face. Each villain is rarely treated as a god type character in Batman, but they are so well written that they are regularly featured as some of the best villains in comics. And the meat of their best stories happened either with O'Niell writing or editing.

Johns destroys the character of Batman because he has never been able to write characters like him well. Johns loves to show his talent by writing stories that are a step above the stories that the character is usually written for. Batman has the best written stories in comics. He is the character with the most critically acclaimed stories in comics. His stories have earned the most awards in comics. Batman shows and movies are better reviewed than other comic book movies. And they all feature the most time tested and reader approved interpretation of the character. If Johns wanted to write an accepted interpretation, he would be compared to O'Niell, Frank Miller, Alan Moore, Jeph Loeb, and Grant Morrison. He would not be the great comic book writer that saved Batman like he was hailed as being for Superman. He would have to write against his own demonstrated strengths and come up short against the best writers in the business.

So he decides that the best way to not lose is to not play. His Batman's personality is pulled from whole cloth, with no resemblance to anything commonly associated with the Dark Knight. And when the time comes for a safe and by the numbers Batman...just look at his performance in the DCAU. If Johns cannot improve a character in a meaningful way, he does not seem to write them seriously.

Case in point...Superman during Justice League Volume 1-4. The first two volumes of Action Comics were written by Grant Morrison, considered the third greatest living comic book writer behind Stan Lee and Alan Moore. Volume 1 and 2 of Justice League gives Superman no personality. Why...because it is hard to write a really good Superman. And if the best Superman writer is writing Action Comics, then you are sacrificing time and energy to write the second best version of a popular character. Triage.

@awesomeperson: he also said that Superman hasn't inspired anyone since he died, which is a direct shot at Superman's sales.

And Batman IS a d*ck. He spies on his teammates and thinks he's the smartest guy in the room.

@senglord: If you believe that Iron Man wasn't written well under Johns, and believe that Johns just doesn't write "thinking" characters like Iron Man and Batman well, why the hell do you guys think Geoff hates Batman?

@superguy1591: I used to think that. But the biggest critical flaw to his writing has been the lack of layers and subtexts. If he cannot write the character well, he should keep the use to a minimum.

Batman, Iron Man, and most superhero comics are most critically received when there is a clear subtext to what is read on the page.

If Iron Man's best stories are read in a critical light, he is the genius of America with all the good and bad mixed up.

The best batman stories have a lot of subtext when read critically. Morrison likes to put four or more conflicting interpretations in his best works and leave the reader to parse them all out.

Johns tends to be direct and classical with his writing. And writing Batman literally is possible, but rarely long lasting. Year One can work as a straightforward action yarn. Or it can be that a loud challenge to a corrupt system can enable smaller characters like Selina Kyle to actually get things done. Making the comic a criticism of one great man changing the world. This from Miller the misogynist. Arkham Asylum can be a direct fight in Arkham, or a dream.

Snyder creates a great horror vibe to the Court of Owls by highlighting that the Court is everywhere, yet only someone with the skills and money of Batman can combat them. subtext-

The court is, itself, a combination cult and clan. The essence of Gothic horror, with the good men and women tortured and broken for the benefit of a decadent ruling elite.

@imthedamnbatman: he doesn't d"ckride and wank The Bat like some writers do.

Screw you.

considering he gave Batman practically a universe changing event dedicated to him, its safe to say he doesn't hate batman.

One scene I didn't like by Geoff Johns about Batman was when he openly exposed his secret identity to Hal Jordan in the first JL comic of the new52 out in the open of the city. that was dumb