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#1 Edited by ImTheDamnBatman (3514 posts) - - Show Bio

Makes no sense to me.

He:

- Made Batman the leader of the Justice League

- Made him to be the smartest member of the League

- Writes him as a human fighting among powerhouses

- Makes him relevant despite this

- Gets the character right (IMO)

- Consistently has Batman be the level headed voice of reason among the League

So I really don't know why they say Johns hates Batman. I think he writes him well.

#2 Posted by hart7668 (2161 posts) - - Show Bio

*shrugs*

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#3 Edited by Wolverine08 (26752 posts) - - Show Bio

#4 Posted by Jphu8414 (1550 posts) - - Show Bio

Bat fanboys are mad that he doesn't make him bat god

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#5 Posted by ImTheDamnBatman (3514 posts) - - Show Bio

@wolverine08: Yeah, well he's kind of not. They outnumber him, and you really think people like Lex and Slade are just gonna go "Sure Batman, lead the team. We'll follow whatever you say."

#6 Posted by SilverPool (827 posts) - - Show Bio

How he wrote Batman in GL: Rebirth is the only legitimate reason I can think of.

http://arousinggrammardotcom.files.wordpress.com/2013/08/batmangreenlantern19.jpg

#7 Posted by ImTheDamnBatman (3514 posts) - - Show Bio

@silverpool: Alright, that was BS. But writers have their low points.

#8 Edited by DrMantisToboggan (593 posts) - - Show Bio

His contingency plans for the league were quite poorly thought out

#9 Edited by TheHipKid (7197 posts) - - Show Bio

@jphu8414 said:

Bat fanboys are mad that he doesn't make him bat god

So much this.

That scene was boss.

#10 Posted by Wolverine08 (26752 posts) - - Show Bio

@saint_wildcard: I'm not even much of a Batman fan and I found the scene silly to be frank.

#11 Posted by Black_Arrow (1907 posts) - - Show Bio

Maybe because he writes Batman as an arrogant child.

#12 Posted by Experio (8400 posts) - - Show Bio

He doesn't write Bats with his characteristics.

#13 Edited by Manwhohaseverything (1422 posts) - - Show Bio

In the scan @wolverine08 used, I don't even think Johns was writing Batman as much as he was writing Sinestro, Slade, Luthor, et al. Bruce is used to being able to take command, even around people more powerful than him. (Superman, WW, GL, etc..) for the sake of the team, and out of respect for Bruce, they'll concede..sometimes. Well, Sinestro and Luthor have bigger ego's than the JL and have no reason to trust Bats, or even consider that he might be better suited for leadership than they are. This was, I think, Johns way of showing that. And to show that not everyone is intimidated by Batman..I mean what reason would Slade have to be intimidated by Batman?...much less Black Adam. If anything I see that scene as "Respect Luthor" more than "diss Batman."

#14 Posted by LyraFay (2112 posts) - - Show Bio

Batman was written okay in Throne of Atlantis, but not the best.

#15 Edited by Wolverine08 (26752 posts) - - Show Bio

@manwhohaseverything: You make a point that Bruce is used to taking command in places, but the scene still portrayed things incorrectly IMO. Bruce there looked like a puerile teenager getting pissy because he didn't get a new cell phone for his birthday. I can understand not wanting everyone to fall in line to the Batgod, but that scene just made Bruce look unbearably stupid IMO.

#16 Posted by ImTheDamnBatman (3514 posts) - - Show Bio
#17 Posted by Outside_85 (7118 posts) - - Show Bio

- Made Batman the leader of the Justice League

Eh no, he made Batman fight with Aquaman for the leadership, while most of the others didn't care about either because they were looking to Superman.

- Made him to be the smartest member of the League

Kinda been his superpower since Morrison, thing is now he doesn't seem to apply those smarts in any brilliant fashion. Like that stupid pulling off his mask in front of Jordan in the first story (which was more fan service to Hal).

- Writes him as a human fighting among powerhouses

Been doing that since the Justice Society was the only squad in town.

- Makes him relevant despite this

What exactly has he done that only he could do? (Except his traditional 'only one to escape' act)

- Gets the character right (IMO)

He doesn't even get close, like with Wonder Woman, Johns is very fond of ignoring what other, better, writers have established and put his own spin on things.

- Consistently has Batman be the level headed voice of reason among the League

So why did half of his followers leave and join Wonder Womans JLD-squad. If TW and FE has shown us anything, it's that Johns Bats really doesn't know that much more and only really has his control issues and paranoia to bring to the table.

So I really don't know why they say Johns hates Batman. I think he writes him well.

Think you should try and read one of Snyders books, or better yet, read Morrisons JLA to see how Batman is well written as a member of a Superteam.

#18 Edited by ImTheDamnBatman (3514 posts) - - Show Bio

@outside_85:

(1) Aquaman had no ground, it was a minor plot point at best.

(2) So telling the League the best course of action isn't important?

(3) Yeah, your point?

(4) How is that not relevant? Batman's "only one to escape" act has saved the League from death.

(5) What do other Bruces have that John's doesn't?

(6) Just because he's the voice of reason doesn't mean everyone will listen to him.

(7) Can and have.

#19 Posted by Outside_85 (7118 posts) - - Show Bio

@imthedamnbatman:

  1. Yet one thats back with a vengeance in the scans above. Aquamans argument was that he should lead because he was already a king so knew what to do.
  2. It would be, but I don't see him actually managing to do that very well. People aren't inclined to believe him as they used to do, by the looks of it most are more inclined to follow their own heads than his.
  3. Same as yours, whats the point of mentioning this in the first place?
  4. And done what so far with his freedom? He hasnt saved the League yet, the Syndicate is still in charge and he seems no closer to actually change that. So what has he done? Get run over by Luthor's goon-squad?
  5. Johns ignores whats going on right now, he doesn't take cues from Azzarello or Snyder, which is the difference. In the past you had the sense it was the same character appearing across the board in half a dozen different books from the same month. Now, you get the impression it's different people depending on which book you are reading.
  6. Obviously that he is either not the voice of reason, or a very convincing one if half of a group of intelligent people dump him on WW's order.
  7. More to my surprise you actually claim Johns is actually doing a good job, when he seems to be the only writer from the last decade that's actually failed to properly grasp Batman.

#20 Edited by ImTheDamnBatman (3514 posts) - - Show Bio

@outside_85:

(1) Right, Aquaman, leader of the Justice League. I'm going to go out on a limb and say that will never be the case. After the dust of this event has settled, we all know who's going to be calling the shots.

(2) That's their own fault. They may get the job done, but as Batman says "It could have been done cleaner. Less risk."

(3) Other writers make him some sort of impossible human who defies any and all odds. Johns doesn't, typically.

(4) If you think Batman hasn't saved the League while others are incapacitated, I suggest you reread the first arc.

(5) What cues? What are you talking about? You're making blanket statements with no content. How is he different specifically? What elements from other titles you deem more worthy isn't he using? It seems like the same character across the board to me.

(6) Your mistake here is assuming that everyone is rational and will always follow the voice of reason. I guarantee that when this arc is over, Batman will be the one who was "right", because Batman is the one who sees the grander picture and consequences of actions.

(7) And how has he failed to grasp Batman? What dictates a proper Batman? Be specific now.

#21 Edited by Outside_85 (7118 posts) - - Show Bio

@imthedamnbatman:

  1. Under Johns? Aye, and he smells of saltwater.
  2. Not entirely; despite how good he is, Batman is also nearly legendary in how poor is people skills are. No one wants a Sergeant Hartman as their leader, despite how good or right he might be, and Batman under Johns isn't much better than him.
  3. Which makes having Batman on the team irrelevant. Why bother with the 'just human' guy on the team if he doesn't have anything of use to add... which is very much like the Superman of JL3000 sees everyone else, especially Batman. Batman is on the JL to show us readers that through hard work and determination, you could be on that team alongside the aliens and demigods as an equal.
  4. Think you need to read it a little more closely. Superman couldn't beat Darkseid, it was Cyborg's (or rather Grid's) inbuilt Motherbox that boomed all the bad guys out.
  5. You aren't reading the details then.
  6. Perhaps it is a terrible habit of mine to think everyone I read about is a sensible being on some level, but that just something I do, or else I have to put them down to Booster Gold level where they need to go the way of all flesh. You guarantee is worthless at this point, it's already been revealed its going to be everyone saying: "Lex was right!"
  7. Make him cool.
#22 Edited by ImTheDamnBatman (3514 posts) - - Show Bio

@outside_85: "Make him cool."

The fact you just want Batman to "look cool", plus the fact you can't specifically state how John's Batman is different, means you really know nothing about him.

#23 Posted by ArturoCalaKayVee (10042 posts) - - Show Bio

He just doesn't write a good Batman. Not everyone can, writers have their strengths and weaknesses.

@jphu8414 said:

Bat fanboys are mad that he doesn't make him bat god

#24 Posted by Outside_85 (7118 posts) - - Show Bio

@outside_85: "Make him cool."

The fact you just want Batman to "look cool", plus the fact you can't specifically state how John's Batman is different, means you really know nothing about him.

Ok then, how about this; Johns writes him as a spoiled upper-class child trapped in a boot-camp with bigger kids rather than as an adult man with one of the most brilliant tactical minds on the planet.

And 'Make him cool', it about as simple as you can get and everyone else since Frank Miller manages to get it, except Johns who makes him fodder to make characters he prefers look better.

Is it hammered out enough for you now?

#25 Posted by Twentyfive (2405 posts) - - Show Bio

@wolverine08: Johns wrote that scene? Thank the almighty stars. Bless that man's heart.

No, but in all seriousness, YEAH!!

I freaking hate Batman.

#26 Posted by Jphu8414 (1550 posts) - - Show Bio

He just doesn't write a good Batman. Not everyone can, writers have their strengths and weaknesses.

@jphu8414 said:

Bat fanboys are mad that he doesn't make him bat god

I speak only the truth sir haha

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#27 Posted by ImTheDamnBatman (3514 posts) - - Show Bio

@outside_85: Well yeah, now I know what you think and it's fleshed out. Thank you.

#28 Posted by Wolverine08 (26752 posts) - - Show Bio

@twentyfive: I don't like Batman much either, still found the scene silly.

#29 Edited by Jayc1324 (5374 posts) - - Show Bio

@jphu8414: You're generalizing. Compare his batman to the batman in the older jl written by grant Morrison. Also he makes batman look stupid and weak and clueless most of the time. And did you read earth one? The batman Johns wrote in that book was horrible. And the scan posted earlier does not help your case.

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#30 Posted by PapiNacho (1427 posts) - - Show Bio

Well lets see and keep in mind that while I don't actually think that Geoff straight up hates Batman; I think it is easy to see why people would think so. The first and most obvious is Batman: Earth One, there was nothing appealing about the character here at all. When I read a Batman story I want to be able to cheer for Batman, here I can't. Not only is Batman a spoiled brat in this comic, but he doesn't even have the skills to back it up. He gets beat on by Alfred and can't even make a working grappling gun by himself. Moving on to Justice League: he isn't the leader at any point in time, he wants to be but he hasn't done anything to demonstrate that he should be, and not a single character ever listened to his advice (except Cyborg, but he has taken a supporting role in the team). Aside from freeing Superman he has done nothing to contribute to the team effort (granted not many in the team have so there you go). He is straight up disrespected by Green Lantern and doesn't prove him wrong or even respond. In Forever Evil his contingency plans are ludicrous (except possibly Flash's). It becomes apparent that he can't even use the items in question and has never tested them. Note that I don't think Batman's plans should be 100% successful and he should be able to take down everyone else whenever he wants to, but his plans should at least have a fair chance of working. Again in FE, Batman a master detective and expert in the criminal mind, not only does not notice that Lex Luthor and his friends are not going to obey his orders (and why they would if no one in his team does is beyond me), but also can't even beat Copperhead in a one on one fight. Johns has stated that Lex Luthor and Batman will compete over leadership over the league but he has done nothing to demonstrate Batman is even half as capable, just as he has done nothing to demonstrate the original big 7 where the greatest super heroes in the planet before shaking up the roster.Finally every appearance of Batman in a Green Lantern book, has been met with mockery of the character. Now I know people are going to say, hey Green Lantern is not a Batman book, he deserves this because of DKR, Batman is a jerk etc. etc. but I'm not questioning the quality of the GL books(because hint: they aren't Batman books) because of the Batman bashing just mentioning the further indications about the authors attitude.

#31 Posted by The Stegman (20774 posts) - - Show Bio

He doesn't hate Batman, fans often exaggerate to get their point across. Does he write a GOOD Batman? Eh, not really, but he's far from horrible (Hal sucker punching Bruce withstanding).

#32 Posted by Jphu8414 (1550 posts) - - Show Bio
@jayc1324 said:

@jphu8414: You're generalizing. Compare his batman to the batman in the older jl written by grant Morrison. Also he makes batman look stupid and weak and clueless most of the time. And did you read earth one? The batman Johns wrote in that book was horrible. And the scan posted earlier does not help your case.

Let me guess, because he's not bat god right? ok just kidding although really IMO Earth One wasn't that bad

He doesn't hate Batman, fans often exaggerate to get their point across. Does he write a GOOD Batman? Eh, not really, but he's far from horrible (Hal sucker punching Bruce withstanding).

Didn't Batman also punch Hal once? Guy Gardner too? So I guess they're even right?

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#33 Posted by The Stegman (20774 posts) - - Show Bio

@jphu8414 said:
@jayc1324 said:

@jphu8414: You're generalizing. Compare his batman to the batman in the older jl written by grant Morrison. Also he makes batman look stupid and weak and clueless most of the time. And did you read earth one? The batman Johns wrote in that book was horrible. And the scan posted earlier does not help your case.

Let me guess, because he's not bat god right? ok just kidding although really IMO Earth One wasn't that bad

@the_stegman said:

He doesn't hate Batman, fans often exaggerate to get their point across. Does he write a GOOD Batman? Eh, not really, but he's far from horrible (Hal sucker punching Bruce withstanding).

Didn't Batman also punch Hal once? Guy Gardner too? So I guess they're even right?

It's a compliment to be punched by Batman, it means he cares, Otherwise he treats you with cool indifference.

#34 Posted by TommyJones1945 (716 posts) - - Show Bio

To be perfectly honest, its mostly because he doesn't make him BatGod. That's the assessment I've gotten from comments amog other sites as well as in person.

People don't like it when Batman isn't dodging OBs and kicking the Spectre in the schnozz.

#35 Posted by Strongarm (5523 posts) - - Show Bio

@jphu8414 said:

Bat fanboys are mad that he doesn't make him bat god

This

This

and more This

#36 Posted by Avenging-X-Bolt (11734 posts) - - Show Bio

@wolverine08: honestly, this moment doesn't come across as hate. Just look at who he's talking too.

#37 Edited by Johnni_Kun (289 posts) - - Show Bio

Bat haters clam it's because Batfanboys think Johns doesn't like Batman because the whole Batgod thing. However, it's really because he writes him constantly out of character. Very much like how he he writes Wonder Woman. It's not that he doesn't like Batman, it's just that he doesn't see why everyone finds him so appealing(and or doesn't think he deserves the amount of attention he gets.). And it his bias nature that shows in his writing. It's not that big of a deal. However, it is understandable of why some people would be upset.

#38 Posted by entropy_aegis (13631 posts) - - Show Bio

People dont say anything,Johns owns writing shows it and his defenders bring up the not Bat god excuse to justify his handling of the character while ignoring all the BS Johns pet characters pull out of their ass to look badass.

How may times do we have to be reminded that Batman is not scary? or that he has no powers.It's become a running gag every time Batman shows up. Likewise every time Batman tries to do something it ends up blowing up in his face.I can understand Batman making a mistake once or twice but every single time?

#39 Edited by scouts1998 (524 posts) - - Show Bio

I just say he doesn't need to write batman, he works better on the superheroes with powers.

#40 Edited by sinestro_GL (3008 posts) - - Show Bio

He writes Batman fine.

There are some Bat-God moments and some Bat-douche moments...but everyone on the web only focuses on the negative and just looooove to complain about something, which in the grand scheme of things, doesn't matter

#41 Posted by TDK_1997 (13718 posts) - - Show Bio

Because Johns writes Batman as a halftwit who doesn't act or seem like himself.The things he says and the way he acts are nothing like his normal action and he just gets him all wrong.And if you want to see what is wrong with Johns' Batman characterization then you can read Forever Evil #5 where Batman and Lex have a chat about how they should work together and who would be the leader.

#42 Posted by soldierofel (73 posts) - - Show Bio

I think it has something to do with GL rebirth. The sucker punch. I don't know why people complain, personally i think batman earth one is the best batman stories. It brought batman down a peg in terms of ability and made him human rather than a guy who relies on prep all the time and who never makes mistakes. He is human after all.

#43 Edited by JakeN7 (4891 posts) - - Show Bio
"Hey there guy I just met, want to know my secret identity?" "Why would I care? It's not like you're some billionaire celebrity that creates headlines on a daily basis."

"When written by Geoff Johns I am."

I always thought it was funny that in that arc, Geoff Johns favorite character, the one that made his career, the one that he'd been writing nearly a decade just "happened" to be the one getting all the one-ups on Batman. Seemed rather personal.

I'm pretty sure he even stated that he just doesn't "get" Batman, and that was the initial reasoning for writing Earth One, so he could start from scratch.

More evidence he thinks Batman is a dick:

On Batman Earth One: (courtesy of this interview)

Interviewer: Yeah, he’s also kind of a dick, which surprised me. You actually made the fact he had money make him a bit of an entitled brat as a child. And how it partially led to his parents shooting.

Geoff Johns: It’s hard, I think. It’s gotta be the single greatest regret in his life, is that moment. And I don’t think there’s one second it doesn’t haunt him and he hasn’t told anybody about it and that’s eaten him up inside since he was 10 years old.

Johns just doesn't write the character well. In fact, I don't think he's real fond of any "non-powered" heroes.

The only time Johns has at least wrote a proper Batman is during Flashpoint (ironically.) One of my favorite Batman scenes ever is when Barry gives Bruce the letter from his dad. But that's it.

@imthedamnbatman: "(7) And how has he failed to grasp Batman? What dictates a proper Batman? Be specific now."

Is above specific enough? I don't think @outside_85 saying "make him look cool" helped very much (no offense. Lol)

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#44 Posted by WaveMotionCannon (4671 posts) - - Show Bio

@wolverine08: this is hilarious to me. You cant be in charge all of the time, sometimes you have to fall back lol.

The BatGlare doesn't work on everyone. I don't see this as making him look silly , I see it more as him being humbled a bit and shown his place in this situation.

#45 Posted by Onemoreposter (3564 posts) - - Show Bio

@jphu8414:

@jaken7 said:
"Hey there guy I just met, want to know my secret identity?" "Why would I care? It's not like you're some billionaire celebrity that creates headlines on a daily basis."

"When written by Geoff Johns I am."

I always thought it was funny that in that arc, Geoff Johns favorite character, the one that made his career, the one that he'd been writing nearly a decade just "happened" to be the one getting all the one-ups on Batman. Seemed rather personal.

I'm pretty sure he even stated that he just doesn't "get" Batman, and that was the initial reasoning for writing Earth One, so he could start from scratch.

More evidence he thinks Batman is a dick:

On Batman Earth One: (courtesy of this interview)

Interviewer: Yeah, he’s also kind of a dick, which surprised me. You actually made the fact he had money make him a bit of an entitled brat as a child. And how it partially led to his parents shooting.

Geoff Johns: It’s hard, I think. It’s gotta be the single greatest regret in his life, is that moment. And I don’t think there’s one second it doesn’t haunt him and he hasn’t told anybody about it and that’s eaten him up inside since he was 10 years old.

Johns just doesn't write the character well. In fact, I don't think he's real fond of any "non-powered" heroes.

The only time Johns has at least wrote a proper Batman is during Flashpoint (ironically.) One of my favorite Batman scenes ever is when Barry gives Bruce the letter from his dad. But that's it.

@imthedamnbatman: "(7) And how has he failed to grasp Batman? What dictates a proper Batman? Be specific now."

Is above specific enough? I don't think @outside_85 saying "make him look cool" helped very much (no offense. Lol)

I approve this post. Wanted to make sure Jphu saw it. We don't hate Batman not being written as "Batgod." In fact...Batman very rarely gets written that way. However, we like our Batman to be competent. Even someone of reasonable intelligence shouldn't be doing something like this.

Now I'm not talking about the punch. Who gives a damn about the punch. Heroes punch each other all the time. The fact that Batman then suggest that league should try and taken on the giant extra-galactic space monster on "ourselves" i.e. the league i.e without the help of the 5 Green Lanterns there IS LUDICROUS. You don't need to be one of the greatest minds on the planet to realize that 5 beings carrying the most powerful weapons in the universe are probably good people to have on your side when fighting a giant evil space monster. Beyond that, I couldn't find the scan, but do you know what leads up to the above panels? Batman throws a batrope around Hal's arm. Batman....tries to stop a Green Lantern....with a batrope.... *sighs*

Again, Batman, someone who's repeatedly stated and portrayed through 75 years of comics as one of the greatest minds and tacticians on the planet says something like this

Because APPARENTLY Batman isn't intelligent enough to assess the situation and realize that a room full of SUPERVILLIANS, each which easily outclasses him in power, aren't going to listen to a damn word he says. Nope, that type of logical situation assessment is beyond Batman when being written by Johns.

In fact, Batman is acting just like a small spoiled child in all of these panels. Another panel from Batman and GL's first team up after Rebirth below. Batman refuses to work with Hal until they're even...because that's how intelligent grown ups act....if that intelligent grown up is Batman....being written by Geoff Johns.

Two punches with Hal Jordan. Two punches to make Batman look bad. Oh, and I'll drive? HAL CAN FLY NEAR LIGHT SPEED. I swear Batman must have a secret debilitating brain tumor that starts acting up when Geoff Johns starts writing him.

As Jaken pointed out in the interview, John's claims to "not get" Batman. Whether it's because Johns is simply not intelligent enough to understand a fairly simple character or doesn't WANT to get him because he doesn't like him is up for debate.

Batman fans simply want a Batman who isn't written as a stupid jerk. He doesn't have to be the one to always bail the league out of their jams. He doesn't always have to have the answers or be the most knowledgeable person in the room. However, he should be smart, experienced, and able to contribute in a meaningful manner accordingly with his particular skill set.

#46 Edited by Vitalius (924 posts) - - Show Bio
#47 Posted by JasonHawke (729 posts) - - Show Bio

@jphu8414 said:

Bat fanboys are mad that he doesn't make him bat god

#48 Posted by SOG7dc (6713 posts) - - Show Bio

The argument that we don't like it because he isn't "batgod" is ridiculous. We don't like it because it isn't batman at all. When you read Geoff Jihns' batman do you see a disciplined master of martial arts? Te worlds greatest detective, somebody who went through thoegal, somebody who prepared to go crazy, somebody who, in pre52, only took mini naps rather than sleep, someone who only drinks that grass thing that Alfred brings him because he's so disciplined that's all he requires? When Geoff writes him he is not competent, he is not smart, he is not Bruce Wayne. He's Geoff Johns' deconstruction of Bruce Wayne. Snyder doesn't write "batgod" people love his batman though. O'niel didn't either but people love him.

#49 Posted by MartianManhunterIsBetterThanCyborg (2201 posts) - - Show Bio

Because just like with Wonder Woman, he writes Batman inconsistently and with nothing that makes the character mildly appealing.

#50 Posted by youknowwhattodo (481 posts) - - Show Bio

I do think that Batman fanboys hate Geoff Johns portrayal of Batman because he isn't Batgod but I think that Batman fans hate the portrayal because it is inconsistent and often times appears as a parody of himself.

As someone who sees Batman and thinks "meh", I will say that Geoff Johns tries a little too hard at times to ground Batman (for example in the panel frequently cited on this thread, Batman would understand his situation with Lex and the others and would not push the envelope by proclaiming himself the leader), while Scott Snyder was able to ground Batman but still keep a consistent characterization that stays true to the basics of his character. However I will say two things though. One, when comparing team stories to individual stories, characters are almost always portrayed better in their own series. Two, Batman fans who are upset at how Johns is writing Batman now know how some people who weren't Batman fans felt pre-52 reading Justice League stories.