Why do people hate Ron Marz and Geoff Johns?

I have no clue on why they are often cited in forums and they didn't do that much of havoc to the comic book community, right?

Most people hate Ron Marz because he is responsible for "Emerald Twilight." AKA Hal Jordan goes crazy and kills the other Green Lanterns story, generally looked at with the same disdain among Green Lantern fans as the "Spider-Clone Saga" is among Spider-Man fans.

I didn't know that people did hate Geoff Johns though, so got me there.

Johns is kiling it on Aquaman and consistantly for years Green Lantern (Justice League not so much....)

I haven't seen all outward hate for Marz even if he does get plenty of flack for Emerald Twilight. I think the hate for Johns, which is negligible if you ask me (big Johns fan here), is proactive from the perceived standpoint that Johns' increased successes and all since 2005 are eventually going to plateau into mediocrity and eventually poor written work similar to Marvel's Brian Michael Bendis. At least that is my understanding. The only problem with what I said is, Johns actually does well where the other doesn't. Moreover, if Johns' work is plateauing in quality, it sure could have fooled me, for I think he's still consistently bringing us greatness on par with how he started on Rebirth in '05.

@Moonchilde said:

Most people hate Ron Marz because he is responsible for "Emerald Twilight." AKA Hal Jordan goes crazy and kills the other Green Lanterns story, generally looked at with the same disdain among Green Lantern fans as the "Spider-Clone Saga" is among Spider-Man fans.

I didn't know that people did hate Geoff Johns though, so got me there.

Two things that people hate: Flashpoint and apparantly the retcons done to GL continuity.

@Moonchilde said:

Most people hate Ron Marz because he is responsible for "Emerald Twilight." AKA Hal Jordan goes crazy and kills the other Green Lanterns story, generally looked at with the same disdain among Green Lantern fans as the "Spider-Clone Saga" is among Spider-Man fans.

I didn't know that people did hate Geoff Johns though, so got me there.

I was under the impression that Marz was mainly hated because he created the original Girl in Refrigerator in GL

as for Johns, he is hated cause he is popular

I hate Johns because he's a good writer trying to be a bad editor.

@AtPhantom said:

I hate Johns because he's a good writer trying to be a bad editor.

Trying? Isn't that an understatement? :p

BB

People hate Geoff Johns?

Burn them!

:P

I think its more so comic hipsters that hate Geoff Johns because he's popular and want to express how they "don't follow the mainstream" and that their "smarter" than the majority of comic fans. These same comic hipsters are the people who come onto forums and constantly vent their frustration with him about how his writing isn't "intellectual" enough for them and who usually yell at you if you don't like Grant Morrison. I'm not gonna pass judgment on any one person, but they all probably read Johns' work anyway. Johns' work can be intellectual and can incorporate higher themes, but he mostly writes just to be fun and entertaining, which is what comics are supposed to be. Does he always kill it? No. But is he a quality writer with good consistency? Yes.

Who doesn't like Geoff Johns? I'm a big fan of his work (incl. Brainiac, the entire New Krypton Saga, and especially his work in the new 52 - Green Lantern is currently my favourite series AON)

I love them both!

@arnoldoaad said:

@Moonchilde said:

Most people hate Ron Marz because he is responsible for "Emerald Twilight." AKA Hal Jordan goes crazy and kills the other Green Lanterns story, generally looked at with the same disdain among Green Lantern fans as the "Spider-Clone Saga" is among Spider-Man fans.

I didn't know that people did hate Geoff Johns though, so got me there.

I was under the impression that Marz was mainly hated because he created the original Girl in Refrigerator in GL

as for Johns, he is hated cause he is popular

I actually forgot about "Girl in the Refrigerator", I'm sure between that and Emerald Twilight, there's a lot to hate about Marz.

Good question!

@Zeeguy91 said:

I think its more so comic hipsters that hate Geoff Johns because he's popular and want to express how they "don't follow the mainstream" and that their "smarter" than the majority of comic fans. These same comic hipsters are the people who come onto forums and constantly vent their frustration with him about how his writing isn't "intellectual" enough for them and who usually yell at you if you don't like Grant Morrison. I'm not gonna pass judgment on any one person, but they all probably read Johns' work anyway. Johns' work can be intellectual and can incorporate higher themes, but he mostly writes just to be fun and entertaining, which is what comics are supposed to be. Does he always kill it? No. But is he a quality writer with good consistency? Yes.

you hit the nail on the head right there....stinking hipsters

The people who hate Geoff Johns are usually Hardcore batman fans who feel that Johns hates batman(which i kinda believe is true). but most people like him. I personally love his runs on Action comics and aquaman

Or maybe they just hates his silver age fetish and retcons.
BB

His Aquaman is amazing. All was forgive. Even the bat symbol pasties.

@TheCannon said:

People hate Geoff Johns?

Burn them!

How can someone hate Geoff Johns?

@xxxddd: Because has started a systematic campaign to make his personal favorite character outshine every other.

I don't hate Johns, but I'm weary of the way he writes Batman - especially on this JL run he's doing right now. Bruce has acted out-of-character and it feels like Geoff goes out of his way to throw Batman under the bus every chance he gets. Bat-God haters love him for that. The way he has written Hal in that series has only deepened my dislike for GL also.

One more thing. Johns is credited a lot for the failure that was the Green Lantern movie. Apparently he had a lot of creative input and it drove some people crazy. Naturally he got some negative blow-back when the movie tanked.

@RedheadedAtrocitus said:

I haven't seen all outward hate for Marz even if he does get plenty of flack for Emerald Twilight. I think the hate for Johns, which is negligible if you ask me (big Johns fan here), is proactive from the perceived standpoint that Johns' increased successes and all since 2005 are eventually going to plateau into mediocrity and eventually poor written work similar to Marvel's Brian Michael Bendis. At least that is my understanding. The only problem with what I said is, Johns actually does well where the other doesn't. Moreover, if Johns' work is plateauing in quality, it sure could have fooled me, for I think he's still consistently bringing us greatness on par with how he started on Rebirth in '05.

I couldn't agree more.

Both are good writers

I don't hate Johns he just occasionally lets his love of the silver age take over his writing a bit more than I'd like

BRING BACK AQUAMAN'S BEARD!

@RedheadedAtrocitus said:

I haven't seen all outward hate for Marz even if he does get plenty of flack for Emerald Twilight. I think the hate for Johns, which is negligible if you ask me (big Johns fan here), is proactive from the perceived standpoint that Johns' increased successes and all since 2005 are eventually going to plateau into mediocrity and eventually poor written work similar to Marvel's Brian Michael Bendis. At least that is my understanding. The only problem with what I said is, Johns actually does well where the other doesn't. Moreover, if Johns' work is plateauing in quality, it sure could have fooled me, for I think he's still consistently bringing us greatness on par with how he started on Rebirth in '05.

Wait wait wait, when was Bendis good?

Geoff Johns is terrible in the Justice League.

But he has done an awesome job with Aquaman and Shazam, and people love his Green Lantern stuff (I think). Maybe he ruined what I liked about the question, but I can't hate him.

Who hates Ron Marz?

Johns retcons and silver age fanwank can get very tiring at times.

@TheCrowbar: He was good before Marvel started feeding his ego with miracle grow once he started thinking he was awesome his work turned sh**ty.

@TheCrowbar said:

@RedheadedAtrocitus said:

I haven't seen all outward hate for Marz even if he does get plenty of flack for Emerald Twilight. I think the hate for Johns, which is negligible if you ask me (big Johns fan here), is proactive from the perceived standpoint that Johns' increased successes and all since 2005 are eventually going to plateau into mediocrity and eventually poor written work similar to Marvel's Brian Michael Bendis. At least that is my understanding. The only problem with what I said is, Johns actually does well where the other doesn't. Moreover, if Johns' work is plateauing in quality, it sure could have fooled me, for I think he's still consistently bringing us greatness on par with how he started on Rebirth in '05.

Wait wait wait, when was Bendis good?

Bendis was pretty damn good about ten or so years ago. Back when all he wrote was Alias and Ultimate Spider-Man.

Same reason why everyone hates and tries to prove that so and so is more powerful than the T-800.

all the hate in the world.

Nothing against Marz. Never really read any of his work. I don't hate Johns but I don't get the whole fuss about him. He's a decent writer. He writes good stuff, but he's also written a bunch of bad and mediocre stuff. Not a fan of Aquaman, to decompressed. Infinite Crisis was at least in my opinion pretty lame. Blackest Night was really good, most of Brightest Day was good but the conclusion fell flat. Flashpoint was okay till that awful reveal, with Barry being the one to make the world of Flashpoint. I've read the first few issues of Justice League. Major disappointment. I really enjoyed his work on Flash.

Also I believe he wrote the Black Adam story in 52. That was stellar. Amazing work.

@TheCrowbar said:

@RedheadedAtrocitus said:

I haven't seen all outward hate for Marz even if he does get plenty of flack for Emerald Twilight. I think the hate for Johns, which is negligible if you ask me (big Johns fan here), is proactive from the perceived standpoint that Johns' increased successes and all since 2005 are eventually going to plateau into mediocrity and eventually poor written work similar to Marvel's Brian Michael Bendis. At least that is my understanding. The only problem with what I said is, Johns actually does well where the other doesn't. Moreover, if Johns' work is plateauing in quality, it sure could have fooled me, for I think he's still consistently bringing us greatness on par with how he started on Rebirth in '05.

Wait wait wait, when was Bendis good?

Since always. I'm not saying Bendis is as great as most people say he is. However he wrote and continues to write Ultimate Spider-Man. Bendis has written a lot of good stuff, he's written some bad stuff(not a fan of Brilliant), but he is a good writer. At least in my opinion.

Marz for the Hal story, Geoff because he helped push that awful script for Greenlantern movie into Hollywood, the movie flops and now plans for a good JLA movie is in trouble. Johns can write great, he has good runs on Green Lantern, from Rebirth through to Blackest Night but he's also overly found of the silverage....and one thing about the silverage is its not very good. He also lowers himself to throwing out tortureporn gore pages once in a while, a girl getting molested, some body getting ripped apart with guts everywhere, superboyprime murdering people....he's not the only one Frank Miller, Bendis, the Punisher MAX, TopCows beserker comic all does this style of writing too. The Nu52 or DCNU is the one with big mistakes, not all is bad some stories and characters needed a revamp but starting over in a "new", "hip" and "relevant" and destroying stuff which already worked is not good. Johns and Jim Lee are really pushing this Nu52 verse and not all of it is working, there are lots of complaints against the Lee and Geoff Johns retcons and revamp which lead to 52. Batman and Green Lantern are supposed to be the same...yes the same!? so their sliding timelines many years of feats and history are now compressed?? Years of Justice League compressed into months and weeks?? Batman continuity now has 5 robins in the past 5 years. Batman himself had 154,731 women during this 5 year run and only got one girl pregant, gordon with his compressed history climbed the ranks of the police department faster than any other police officer in the world. Ever. Many characters lost their great back stories but DC hasn’t rebooted their Green Lantern continuity, mostly because it’s being spearheaded by Geoff Johns,

I think the people who dislike Johns are generally in the minority, but sometimes make some noise. However, I have gotten the impression that a lot of people have a dislike for Infinite Crisis in general, and a much stronger dislike of Superboy Prime in general. I think some people also tend to feel his hero-worship of Hal Jordan shines through a little too strongly into the rest of the DC universe. I also think that while a lot of people were happy on some level to get Hal Jordan and the GL Corps back, the yellow-fear-bug explanation wasn't the best way for a lot of them.

On a personal level, I actually enoyed Infinite Crisis, and Sinestro Corps War. However, I felt Flash Rebirth was mediocre. I was also pretty disappointed with Blackest Night (it basically went too far overboard; the black lanterns were too powerful, and there were too many of them. Earth should have been stripped bare in a matter of hours. It also seemed kind of arbitrary as to who got a ring and who didn't. Plus, the pointless retcon that earth was actually the first place in the universe to develop life).

The main GL title also never did much for me. Hal Jordan's characterization doesn't work for me. In fact, of the modern age of Green Lanterns, I like him even less than Guy Gardner, who in the 80's and 90's was easily one of my most hated characters and someone I always felt should have been immediately stripped of his ring and kicked out of both the Justice League and the Corps for being a detriment to his comrades). Then there was the scene where Hal punched his commanding officer without getting court matialed. Sorry, but I just don't care for Gary Stu crap like that. If you want to make the character awesome, make him awesome, don't just make him magically exempt from the normal rules of society.

As for Marz, I knew a lot of people didn't care for Emerald Twilight (I certainly felt it was out of character for Jordan, and the justification given just didn't add up with his actions), but I was never under the impression that his abilities as a writer in general were looked down on because of it. I'm sure just about every writer has some blemishes on their record.

I liked "Emerald Twilight"..A LOT. Of course Hal was out of character..the story was about him breaking emotionally. When you do that, your character changes. It happens in real life. Ever hear anyone say "He used to a happy guy, until..(fill in event.) A very well-craftede story actually. I wish comic fans were more open to sudden changes. They happen sometimes. As for whether the events justified it..well, different people have different levels of what drives them over the edge, and while the change was sudden, the events that led to it were over a long period of time that caught up with Hal.

Also Johns wrote an amazing Teen Titans book.

I've always thought of Marz as an average writer. His Green Lantern run was probably one of the more enjoyable ones for me because I like Kyle Rayner a lot more than I do Hal Jordan. But I can see why Jordan fans would be upset about the whole "Emerald Twilight" thing.

As for Johns, he's an incredible writer and does a lot with characters that many people can't seem to find a voice for. But I will say that he's stuck in the Silver Age. I think he has completely misused Kyle and John in his Green Lantern run but I won't say I "hate" him for that just a little disappointed. Also his Avengers run which immediately preceded Bendis is infinitely better than the latter's. Johns actually used "character development" and "plots" during his run while Bendis just cobbled together the highest selling solo heroes together to make the highest selling team book.

I actually like Emerald Twilight, honestly it was the most interesting Hal had ever been to me, and also I like Kyle way more than I have ever or will ever like Hal.

@joshmightbe said:

I actually like Emerald Twilight, honestly it was the most interesting Hal had ever been to me, and also I like Kyle way more than I have ever or will ever like Hal.

I knew there was someone else that liked that storyline!

@Decoy Elite said:

@TheCrowbar: Daredevil, Alias, Powers, and probably some other stuff I haven't read of his.

Pre-Civil New Avengers and Ultimate Spider-Man were also good.

@Decoy Elite said:

@TheCrowbar: Daredevil, Alias, Powers, and probably some other stuff I haven't read of his.

Pre-Civil New Avengers and Ultimate Spider-Man were also good.

Johns has a love/hate relationship with the fan base because he either completely nails a character or he completely butchers a character. There's no middle ground.

@Manwhohaseverything said:

I liked "Emerald Twilight"..A LOT. Of course Hal was out of character..the story was about him breaking emotionally. When you do that, your character changes. It happens in real life.

Not even close to good enough. Yeah, people can change from trauma. But there's a big difference between "character change" and becoming a total psychopath. Hal Jordan giving up the Corps, becoming moody, or a drunk, even attacking some of his friends for not being there, things like that I could buy no problem. But outright murdering a bunch of his corpsmen in cold blood? Deciding that the best way to fix everything is destroying the universe to reboot it?

Sorry, but "alien fear bug" is a lot more believable to me than Jordan actually spontaneously becoming that deranged. I didn't even like the Parallax retcon initially, but when I went back over a lot of Hal's earlier issues and reread Emerald Twilight, I felt it made a lot more sense. You think everyone who lived through Hiroshima became a bunch of homicidal maniacs? Come on. Hal is not the only person, or even the only hero to suffer a devastating tragedy, but even normal people don't usually turn completely evil over it.

And I actually did like Emerald Twilight. I fully appreciated what Marz was trying to do in making the ring unique again, and I liked Kyle better than Hal. But years after the fact, I realized pretty much the only reason Hal's transformation never bothered me that much in the first place was because I just didn't care about him as a character, and wasn't sorry to see him go.

My big problem with Ron Marz came very early on when he took all the life & joy out of the Silver Surfer comic ( 87 series ) . It was full of intrigue, space politics, mystery & awe under Englehart & then humour, thrills, & parables under Starlin & it was all frittered away under Marz. It had been my favourite comic with Kl'rt, Thanos, Living Tribunal, Elders of the Universe, Mantis, Drax... the whole cosmic gang & I tried to hang on as long as possible ( Ron Lim's great art helped) but it wasn't long before I could no longer read that empty soulless corpse of a comic... I've heard he went on to destroy hopes & dreams over at DC later on... but he did it to us poor zombies first.

Geoff Johns ruined Captain Marvel (Billy Batson). That's why I don't like him.

I like Geoff. But I don't like how after Barry came back in Final Crisis he sidelined Wally and Zoom in favor of Barry and Thawne.

for the silver age love >_<

wally and kyle specifically