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#1 Posted by McKlayn (1074 posts) - - Show Bio

Ok now that the title has you ready to crucify me, I would like you to take a second before reading this post. Clear your mind of everything that has happened in AvX and all the common preconceptions we all had before reading. Yes Comic book readers are an intelligent bunch and we were all well aware that due to the release of the Avengers movie accompanied with the direction Scott Summers had been headed (with X force / the Schism / the who Extinction Squad ) that the X-men would be the Villain (or one more then others I honestly figured Hope at the start of the story) and after a long battle between the two factions the X-men would wise up and team up with the Avengers to defeat the common foe before they destroyed the world.

Purge yourself of all your grand comic book knowledge and let’s start from the start, and let me at least present a way you could make a case for this whole story ending entirely different if it wasn’t for your beloved Captain America.

You see Cap I believe was the catalyst in this event, he was the person who made everything go wrong and it started right at the start. I will list below just a few example of things he done that if maybe where handled a different way might of changed the entire course of AVX.

His Approach:: Yes Cap started off in issue number one on the wrong foot. I understand that a cosmic entity is coming to earth that could very well destroy, but come on guys it’s not the first time this fire bird of destruction has been on earth and all times before that the X-Men had dealt with it and the earth remained largely intact. For some reason though Cap felt he had to go to utopia and DEMAND that Cyclops hand over hope, he not only went to Cyclops house and made demands for him to turn over his grand daughter who many believed to be the messiah of a fallen race, but he did it with an ARMY of super heroes.

Think about this for a minute, a man comes to your door demanding you to turn over a loved one with all intent on what? Killing her? That’s the only thing that made sense to me. And he didn’t come alone.

It was apparent that if Cyclops didn’t do exactly what he said he was Cap was going to use force to get what he wanted, why? What had the group of men and women known has the X-Men done to deserve such an ultimatum? Saved the world time and time again? Yes Cyclops may of blasted Cap right off his beach but Cap made it apparent that it was either that or roll over and let them do what they wanted with his Grand daughter, I think any man would fight to save his family in such a situation.

Complete Lack of Trust:: This goes hand in hand with his first offense. Let’s take a little moment to reflect, not that long ago Scarlet witch went crazy and the X-men realized she was a serious threat. They went to the Avengers and Demanded they handed her over so she could be penalized for crimes she had committed. Cap told Cyclops that he would handle it, and Cyclops TRUSTED him to do so. What did that get him? Well Scarlet witch flipped out and decimated most of the Mutant population, still you didn’t see Cyclops knocking on Cap’s door saying I told you so and trying to kill him.

The point I’m trying to make is Cyclops didn’t show up with every X-men in creation and Demand Scarlet Witch’s head or ELSE. He went, the two talked and they peacefully decided what to do, SHE WAS an avenger and she would be dealt with by the Avengers. Why couldn’t Cap trust Cyclops to do the same with Hope?

Total disregard for history: Ok let’s be real, the Phoenix or Dark Phoenix has always been an X-men problem and as I hinted to earlier one they have dealt with. Jean controlled the Phoenix for years, as did Rachel. Also when Jean lost control the X-men stepped in and did what had to be done, despite how much Cyclops loved Jean, despite what Logan or Charles or anyone else felt for jean. When crunch time came they did what had to be done. It is even proved in Issue 11 when it is finally apparent that Cyclops and Emma have gone over the edge and the X-Men DO THE RIGHT THING, and join up with the avengers to defeat them.

So why not now? Why did the Avengers have to do something before hand? To top it off Rachel Summers controlled the phoenix for a very long time, so who could be 100 percent sure hope couldn’t have? Not Cap that is for sure. They know what the phoenix is but how many of them have actually dealt with it first hand? 2 maybe 3? Most of them were part of the X-men at that time, now how many X-men had dealt with it? A good bit more, what I am saying is History dictates the X-men were capable of dealing with this without Earth being burnt to a crisp. So why did Cap think he had to interject himself now? What is so different now?

Total Lack of Communication: I have read this whole series and I am still not sure what cap’s plan was, and I am pretty sure neither did Cyclops. I mean as far as I could tell his entire plan was to get hope, and put a bullet in her head. Doesn’t sound like a very suitable plan to me, not only was that Cyclop’s granddaughter but if you read the secret avengers tie it looked to me that any planet the Phoenix didn’t find a host in they just burnt and went on. So if their wasn’t a suitable host on earth whats to say it wouldn’t just sorch it and keep going? I think you have a much better chance I don’t know taking the host to the moon, letting them get the Phoenix force seeing if they can control it if and if they couldn’t “Snikt” them. Of course that wasn’t cap’s plan either it was Hope’s.

What I am basically saying is to be a great strategist he didn’t seem to have much of plan, and if he did he didn’t share it with anyone especially not Cyclops. I am sorry but as a parent or grand parent either one I don’t think you could expect him to hand over Hope to some one who as best you can tell plans to kill her. I mean The Avengers have never helped Mutants before why now? They weren’t trying to stop the Sentinels, they weren’t trying to fight for mutant rights not to register (they sure didn’t like it when that rolled over to them though did they?), they don’t fight purifiers or other mutant only threats, so why should anyone believe he was too concerned over one little mutant girl’s life?

Plain Stubborn: Ok maybe this is just me but after the Phoenix power was divided into 5 different host aka The Phoenix 5, Cap didn’t even give them a chance. Absolute power corrupts absolutely sure, but this wasn’t absolute power it was divided among 5 beings not one like normal. They did good, and they didn’t do it alone. Rogue had a conversation with Iceman during one of the comics talking about how the Phoenix 5 just opened their eyes to all the things they could of done with their powers if they weren’t busy fighting for their survival. Even Beast who had sided solidly with the Avengers at one point was feed up with his logic and left off in a dizzy. To top it all off more then likely the smartest man in the Marvel Universe Reed Richards said that he wasn’t sure that the Phoenix 5 was bad in an issue of the New Avengers (the one where he summoned Namor)

Now Despite the fact that they had done nothing but GOOD, he continued to attack them and treat them as villains. I am sorry but after you get a rock thrown at you so many times your going to start throwing rocks back, The X-men didn’t out law the avengers until they kid napped hope and it was apparent that Cap wasn’t going to stop without some sort of war. Cap provoked the X-men, he is the reason they hunted down Avengers and captured them. He is the reason Namor got feed up and attacked Wakanda, which is also the first of the Phoenix 5 to fall and thus started the chain reaction of the power being spread to the others and eventually driving the sole Phoenix (cyclops) insane with power.

Also I think it says something that after the phoenix force was divided into the 5 host that the TOTALLY flipped his view, he was 110 percent against Hope being the host of the Phoenix. Then he made it his quest to kid nap her so what? So she could take the Phoenix Force from them? Isn’t that what he was trying to stop to begin with, it’s simple math that if the power of the Phoenix is spread over more people it should be easier to control, so wasn’t Iron Man’s misfire a good thing? Shouldn’t he at least have given them a chance instead of automatically assuming they were evil now? Was he so set on being right that he just changed sides mid way through the Series cause that’s what I got from it.

That is about it, but I think if you took time to actually read it you can see that for the events of Avengers vs. X-men to unfold the way they did certain domino’s had to be pushed over and most all of them were by Captain America. Yes you could blame the Avengers as a whole but I don’t, they did what any good team would and followed their leader who they trusted to make the right decision. He however proved to be head strong, and hasty in everything he did. His only concern seemed to be being right, he never once attempted to work it out with Cyclops. Not once did he offer to work with them, he came to the front door with an Army and demanded Cyclops do as told or Else. Yes Cyclops may of fired the first shots in the war, but it was Cap who left him no choice in the matter.

#2 Posted by Jorgevy (5114 posts) - - Show Bio

were you the guy that wrote "why cap was the villain in civil war?"

#3 Posted by Jonny_Anonymous (33050 posts) - - Show Bio

I agree with the OP

#4 Posted by McKlayn (1074 posts) - - Show Bio

no I am new here :D lol

#5 Posted by _slim_ (13075 posts) - - Show Bio

:(

#6 Edited by Gambit1024 (9890 posts) - - Show Bio

A very nice post with excellent points... but the only true villain in AvX is terrible writing.

And if we wanna get technical, Cable started it the minute he attacked the Avengers. Any hostility Cap may or may not have had prior to stepping on Utopia is, in my opinion, justified.

#7 Posted by John Valentine (16307 posts) - - Show Bio

@Gambit1024 said:

And if we wanna get technical, Cable started it the minute he attacked the Avengers. Any hostility Cap may or may not have had prior to stepping on Utopia is, in my opinion, justified.

And Cyclops helped the Avengers take Cable down.....

Anyway, I agree with the OP.

#8 Posted by Cap10nate (2236 posts) - - Show Bio

I don't see the Avengers or Captain America in the wrong. He was told by the President to handle the situation. The situation was that the giant cosmic bird which could very easily destroy the world (as proved by the several worlds it destroyed on its way to Earth) was coming to enter its host . . . a child. Sure, Jean was able to control it for a while, and yet it still overtook her and threatened the entire world. Cyclops thought it would be different this time even though it has never proven to be successful in the past.

I do think they handled the initial meeting well, but that is why they showed Cap meeting with Wolverine for him to tell him that Cyclops would not listen. That is their only fault.

I see in all the other posts how people say how benevolent the Phoenix 5 were by destroying all the weapons in the world. I see it as an act of tyranny as they completely removed the countries abilities to protect themselves against each other, extra terrestrial threats which are common in the Marvel U, and the Phoenix 5 themselves. That itself should be an act of war.

#9 Posted by Gambit1024 (9890 posts) - - Show Bio

@John Valentine said:

@Gambit1024 said:

And if we wanna get technical, Cable started it the minute he attacked the Avengers. Any hostility Cap may or may not have had prior to stepping on Utopia is, in my opinion, justified.

And Cyclops helped the Avengers take Cable down.....

I know, I'm just saying that I'd be angry too if a mutant attacked me and my team the way he did.

#10 Posted by evilvegeta74 (4527 posts) - - Show Bio

@Gambit1024: Agreed

#11 Edited by MrShway88 (655 posts) - - Show Bio

@Cap10nate said:

I don't see the Avengers or Captain America in the wrong. He was told by the President to handle the situation. The situation was that the giant cosmic bird which could very easily destroy the world (as proved by the several worlds it destroyed on its way to Earth) was coming to enter its host . . . a child. Sure, Jean was able to control it for a while, and yet it still overtook her and threatened the entire world. Cyclops thought it would be different this time even though it has never proven to be successful in the past.

I do think they handled the initial meeting well, but that is why they showed Cap meeting with Wolverine for him to tell him that Cyclops would not listen. That is their only fault.

I see in all the other posts how people say how benevolent the Phoenix 5 were by destroying all the weapons in the world. I see it as an act of tyranny as they completely removed the countries abilities to protect themselves against each other, extra terrestrial threats which are common in the Marvel U, and the Phoenix 5 themselves. That itself should be an act of war.

Would you listen to someone who wanted to take your grandchild?

They also provided free energy, water and food. Yeah sounds pretty tyrannical to me. That sounds more like benevolence to me. Plus Earth weapons wouldn't do anything against extra terrestrial threats, when have they ever?

#12 Posted by grenade728 (748 posts) - - Show Bio

I agree with everything accept for the "Cap's fault" part, but thats only cause I'm a huge Captain America fan. So i'll try to shift the blame to the Avengers as a whole. I think the reason he rushed in was because his superiors wanted this done as quickly as possible. But I think I'm a fanboy trying to make excuses. Poor Cyclops :(

#13 Posted by Cap10nate (2236 posts) - - Show Bio

@MrShway88: They had no plans on killing her. Wolverine did . . . which is why Cap kicked him out of the plane. They did things that were helpful but they made themselves the dictators of the world by taking what was not theirs and exerting force where it was not requested. That is an act of war.

#14 Posted by McKlayn (1074 posts) - - Show Bio

To a few Points

he may not of planned on killing her but what did he plan then? If it was nothing but watching her why did he not trust the X-men to do it? Also the President wanted it handled? The president also ordered all the super human beings to be registered but he didn't mind standing up for himself on that one?

The biggest thing im making is that Cap wasn't completely right like a lot of the series seems to make it out to be. Really most threads i've read have made it out that cyclops was a clear cut douche that deserved to die. I think hes only done what anyone would do to protect their family and cap pushed the buttons in all this without thinking clearly first

#15 Posted by danhimself (22492 posts) - - Show Bio

both sides were at fault...Captain America and the Avengers screwed up by going after Hope in the first place and pretty much instigating the Phoenix 5 into going dark but in all fairness Cyclops was an idiot...to think that he could control the Phoenix when Jean couldn't is idiotic

#16 Posted by Blood1991 (8098 posts) - - Show Bio

Yeah I disagree, but to each their own.

#17 Posted by PowerHerc (83261 posts) - - Show Bio

The only thing Captain America has ever been a villain to is Nazi Germany, hence he was a villain to actual villains.

#18 Posted by x_29 (2274 posts) - - Show Bio

Its mostly the avengers who are the villains.

#19 Posted by x_29 (2274 posts) - - Show Bio

@McKlayn said:

Ok now that the title has you ready to crucify me, I would like you to take a second before reading this post. Clear your mind of everything that has happened in AvX and all the common preconceptions we all had before reading. Yes Comic book readers are an intelligent bunch and we were all well aware that due to the release of the Avengers movie accompanied with the direction Scott Summers had been headed (with X force / the Schism / the who Extinction Squad ) that the X-men would be the Villain (or one more then others I honestly figured Hope at the start of the story) and after a long battle between the two factions the X-men would wise up and team up with the Avengers to defeat the common foe before they destroyed the world.

Purge yourself of all your grand comic book knowledge and let’s start from the start, and let me at least present a way you could make a case for this whole story ending entirely different if it wasn’t for your beloved Captain America.

You see Cap I believe was the catalyst in this event, he was the person who made everything go wrong and it started right at the start. I will list below just a few example of things he done that if maybe where handled a different way might of changed the entire course of AVX.

His Approach:: Yes Cap started off in issue number one on the wrong foot. I understand that a cosmic entity is coming to earth that could very well destroy, but come on guys it’s not the first time this fire bird of destruction has been on earth and all times before that the X-Men had dealt with it and the earth remained largely intact. For some reason though Cap felt he had to go to utopia and DEMAND that Cyclops hand over hope, he not only went to Cyclops house and made demands for him to turn over his grand daughter who many believed to be the messiah of a fallen race, but he did it with an ARMY of super heroes.

Think about this for a minute, a man comes to your door demanding you to turn over a loved one with all intent on what? Killing her? That’s the only thing that made sense to me. And he didn’t come alone.

It was apparent that if Cyclops didn’t do exactly what he said he was Cap was going to use force to get what he wanted, why? What had the group of men and women known has the X-Men done to deserve such an ultimatum? Saved the world time and time again? Yes Cyclops may of blasted Cap right off his beach but Cap made it apparent that it was either that or roll over and let them do what they wanted with his Grand daughter, I think any man would fight to save his family in such a situation.

Complete Lack of Trust:: This goes hand in hand with his first offense. Let’s take a little moment to reflect, not that long ago Scarlet witch went crazy and the X-men realized she was a serious threat. They went to the Avengers and Demanded they handed her over so she could be penalized for crimes she had committed. Cap told Cyclops that he would handle it, and Cyclops TRUSTED him to do so. What did that get him? Well Scarlet witch flipped out and decimated most of the Mutant population, still you didn’t see Cyclops knocking on Cap’s door saying I told you so and trying to kill him.

The point I’m trying to make is Cyclops didn’t show up with every X-men in creation and Demand Scarlet Witch’s head or ELSE. He went, the two talked and they peacefully decided what to do, SHE WAS an avenger and she would be dealt with by the Avengers. Why couldn’t Cap trust Cyclops to do the same with Hope?

Total disregard for history: Ok let’s be real, the Phoenix or Dark Phoenix has always been an X-men problem and as I hinted to earlier one they have dealt with. Jean controlled the Phoenix for years, as did Rachel. Also when Jean lost control the X-men stepped in and did what had to be done, despite how much Cyclops loved Jean, despite what Logan or Charles or anyone else felt for jean. When crunch time came they did what had to be done. It is even proved in Issue 11 when it is finally apparent that Cyclops and Emma have gone over the edge and the X-Men DO THE RIGHT THING, and join up with the avengers to defeat them.

So why not now? Why did the Avengers have to do something before hand? To top it off Rachel Summers controlled the phoenix for a very long time, so who could be 100 percent sure hope couldn’t have? Not Cap that is for sure. They know what the phoenix is but how many of them have actually dealt with it first hand? 2 maybe 3? Most of them were part of the X-men at that time, now how many X-men had dealt with it? A good bit more, what I am saying is History dictates the X-men were capable of dealing with this without Earth being burnt to a crisp. So why did Cap think he had to interject himself now? What is so different now?

Total Lack of Communication: I have read this whole series and I am still not sure what cap’s plan was, and I am pretty sure neither did Cyclops. I mean as far as I could tell his entire plan was to get hope, and put a bullet in her head. Doesn’t sound like a very suitable plan to me, not only was that Cyclop’s granddaughter but if you read the secret avengers tie it looked to me that any planet the Phoenix didn’t find a host in they just burnt and went on. So if their wasn’t a suitable host on earth whats to say it wouldn’t just sorch it and keep going? I think you have a much better chance I don’t know taking the host to the moon, letting them get the Phoenix force seeing if they can control it if and if they couldn’t “Snikt” them. Of course that wasn’t cap’s plan either it was Hope’s.

What I am basically saying is to be a great strategist he didn’t seem to have much of plan, and if he did he didn’t share it with anyone especially not Cyclops. I am sorry but as a parent or grand parent either one I don’t think you could expect him to hand over Hope to some one who as best you can tell plans to kill her. I mean The Avengers have never helped Mutants before why now? They weren’t trying to stop the Sentinels, they weren’t trying to fight for mutant rights not to register (they sure didn’t like it when that rolled over to them though did they?), they don’t fight purifiers or other mutant only threats, so why should anyone believe he was too concerned over one little mutant girl’s life?

Plain Stubborn: Ok maybe this is just me but after the Phoenix power was divided into 5 different host aka The Phoenix 5, Cap didn’t even give them a chance. Absolute power corrupts absolutely sure, but this wasn’t absolute power it was divided among 5 beings not one like normal. They did good, and they didn’t do it alone. Rogue had a conversation with Iceman during one of the comics talking about how the Phoenix 5 just opened their eyes to all the things they could of done with their powers if they weren’t busy fighting for their survival. Even Beast who had sided solidly with the Avengers at one point was feed up with his logic and left off in a dizzy. To top it all off more then likely the smartest man in the Marvel Universe Reed Richards said that he wasn’t sure that the Phoenix 5 was bad in an issue of the New Avengers (the one where he summoned Namor)

Now Despite the fact that they had done nothing but GOOD, he continued to attack them and treat them as villains. I am sorry but after you get a rock thrown at you so many times your going to start throwing rocks back, The X-men didn’t out law the avengers until they kid napped hope and it was apparent that Cap wasn’t going to stop without some sort of war. Cap provoked the X-men, he is the reason they hunted down Avengers and captured them. He is the reason Namor got feed up and attacked Wakanda, which is also the first of the Phoenix 5 to fall and thus started the chain reaction of the power being spread to the others and eventually driving the sole Phoenix (cyclops) insane with power.

Also I think it says something that after the phoenix force was divided into the 5 host that the TOTALLY flipped his view, he was 110 percent against Hope being the host of the Phoenix. Then he made it his quest to kid nap her so what? So she could take the Phoenix Force from them? Isn’t that what he was trying to stop to begin with, it’s simple math that if the power of the Phoenix is spread over more people it should be easier to control, so wasn’t Iron Man’s misfire a good thing? Shouldn’t he at least have given them a chance instead of automatically assuming they were evil now? Was he so set on being right that he just changed sides mid way through the Series cause that’s what I got from it.

That is about it, but I think if you took time to actually read it you can see that for the events of Avengers vs. X-men to unfold the way they did certain domino’s had to be pushed over and most all of them were by Captain America. Yes you could blame the Avengers as a whole but I don’t, they did what any good team would and followed their leader who they trusted to make the right decision. He however proved to be head strong, and hasty in everything he did. His only concern seemed to be being right, he never once attempted to work it out with Cyclops. Not once did he offer to work with them, he came to the front door with an Army and demanded Cyclops do as told or Else. Yes Cyclops may of fired the first shots in the war, but it was Cap who left him no choice in the matter.

AMEN! Preach my brotha!

#20 Posted by The Stegman (23949 posts) - - Show Bio

Disagreed, Cap may have made some rash decisions, but I'd choose him over the religious nutbag any day.

#21 Posted by Crom-Cruach (8819 posts) - - Show Bio

Yeah no, Cap was right and cyclops the douche who shot him.

#22 Posted by jinxuandi (595 posts) - - Show Bio

@MrShway88 said:


Would you listen to someone who wanted to kill your grandchild?

They also provided free energy, water and food. Yeah sounds pretty tyrannical to me. That sounds more like benevolence to me. Plus Earth weapons wouldn't do anything against extra terrestrial threats, when have they ever?

Funny, this line of argument was used to justify fascist governments during the 1930s. "Sure, Mussolini has removed freedom of the press and many other basic civil liberties, but he makes the trains run on time and nobody's hungry!" The Phoenix 5 type of government is the definition of fascism and it's actually somewhat disturbing to see so many people defending it because of its wide availability of basic human needs.

And Wolverine was the one who wanted to kill Hope, not Cap.

#23 Posted by McKlayn (1074 posts) - - Show Bio

I never said that the Phoenix 5 did everything right, I am just curious if Wolverine wanted to Kill hope and not Cap (which i know the issue your speaking of) then what was Cap's plan? And why couldn't Cyclops of been let in on it? Or asked about it, instead of demanding he turned over Hope no questions asked?

#24 Edited by tg1982 (2715 posts) - - Show Bio

I find it funny how alot of people just assume that Cap wanted to kill Hope, despite never talking about it, never thinking it, and never in any other way alluding to it. And, you know never, ever, exibiting anything of that nature in over 70 year's of comics. As others have stated it was Wolverine that tried to kill Hope and once Cap knew this he handled the situation.

If Cap is guilty of anything it's for thinking that Cyclops could be rational. (I like Cyclops, and hate how he's been written as of late). And it should be noted that the Helicarrier with all the Avengers was off in the distance and didn't get involved until after Cyclops blasted him. And it should also be noted that even after this while Cyclops was blasting at Cap, Cap was still trying to talk sense into Cyclops. Yep, those are the actions of an evil, evil villain alright.

#25 Posted by Jorgevy (5114 posts) - - Show Bio

America = always right

ergo

Captain America = never wrong

#26 Posted by Brazen_Intellect (1144 posts) - - Show Bio

@Gambit1024 said:

A very nice post with excellent points... but the only true villain in AvX is terrible writing.

And if we wanna get technical, Cable started it the minute he attacked the Avengers. Any hostility Cap may or may not have had prior to stepping on Utopia is, in my opinion, justified.

Thank you for your dose of sanity.

Since Civil War nearly every event has been based on the leadership of the Marvel U being written as mental midgets and acting completely against type. The OP has very good points against Cap but you could just as easily make one against Cyclops. Nearly every conflict during AvX has been forced and trying to put the blame on any one character is missing the point.

I may not agree with your point entirely, but this is the kind of post we need more of. You broke down the situation and gave concrete and solid reasons for your opinion instead of the usual flame with nothing to justify it.

#27 Posted by MadeinBangladesh (6637 posts) - - Show Bio

Agree with OP. CAp has been selfish on AvsX

#28 Posted by aaunderoath (165 posts) - - Show Bio

@McKlayn: /slow clap /round of applause /standing ovation

YOU sir get it!!! I'd also like to add Cyclops had control and was still doing good up until Xavier provoked him which eventually led to him snapping being the first and ONLY instance of him being evil. Also in AvX infinite #6 because its digital, Cyclops knew well the entire time that he might not be able to control it but he figured he should use the power to do good until he can't control it so its not like he never considered he might lose control

#29 Edited by Sufferthorn (1739 posts) - - Show Bio

@McKlayn: ....Captain America the Villain? Certainly not, he definitely made some less-than-classy decisions, which was likely WIS(because they needed something to start the huge epic - battle) but he wasn't the one who started sending people to Limbo and abusing his power.

If you ask me who the true villain here is, I say it's Emma Frost. She's been seducing Cyclops from the start as a rebound from Jean Grey, and as much as she denies having meddled with him telepathicly, we ALL know that's total hogwash, she IS indeed manipulating him, and has still been doing so all the way through the AvX.

I mean...who else decided to have all the New-Mutants bow before her and worship her as a Goddess and play Thought-Cop to anyone *coughcannonballcough* who had negative thoughts? Oh yeah...Emma Frost. Who was it that wanted to destroy and re-birth the entire Earth before Cyclops told her she was crazy(even IN his corrupted mind-set). Emma Frost.

I tell you that Captain America did make mistakes, but Emma Frost is the true manipulator here, she WANTED this to happen, and she LIKES ultimate power.

#30 Posted by joshmightbe (24876 posts) - - Show Bio

All the real blame for this whole debacle rests with Cable, he ran in attacked the Avengers instead of even attempting to explain what was going on then ran back to the Xmen giving the impression that they were helping out with the whole Cable trying to murder them thing and as an added bonus the same people who Cable made look insanely suspicious in the attack where actively trying to control an unpredictable cosmic sun eating entity that has repeatedly threatened the safety of the planet. And then when all the crap gets started Cable is no where to be found. So you want to blame someone for AVX its not Cyke or Cap, its Cable pure and simple.

#31 Edited by Sufferthorn (1739 posts) - - Show Bio

@joshmightbe said:

All the real blame for this whole debacle rests with Cable, he ran in attacked the Avengers instead of even attempting to explain what was going on then ran back to the Xmen giving the impression that they were helping out with the whole Cable trying to murder them thing and as an added bonus the same people who Cable made look insanely suspicious in the attack where actively trying to control an unpredictable cosmic sun eating entity that has repeatedly threatened the safety of the planet. And then when all the crap gets started Cable is no where to be found. So you want to blame someone for AVX its not Cyke or Cap, its Cable pure and simple.

Wouldn't really say it's Cable's fault though, even though that didn't help.

When you happen to be a powerful mutant constantly traveling through time and dealing with clones and the possible end of all reality on earth as we know it, and that your only hope for salvation is a girl named Hope who is the son of Scott Summers and looks a LOT like Jean Grey to absorb the powers of the Phoenix to save the Universe, AND you're being chased by an individual(Bishop) who is from an alternate reality where Hope DESTROYS all of reality and believes Hope must be murdered for the sake of the existence of the Universe, and suddenly you appear in the main time-line and by a series of events run into the Avengers....you get a TINZIE WINZIE bit Paranoid.

:)

#32 Posted by greenteaforme (1826 posts) - - Show Bio

@McKlayn

I'd say the "true villain" is the insane Dark Phoenix Cyclops that just killed Xavier.

But that's...just my opinion.

A case could be made for the true villain being hubris or some other abstract facet of humanity. But I don't feel like thinking about it.

#33 Edited by DATNIGGA (1189 posts) - - Show Bio

@McKlayn said:

Ok now that the title has you ready to crucify me, I would like you to take a second before reading this post. Clear your mind of everything that has happened in AvX and all the common preconceptions we all had before reading. Yes Comic book readers are an intelligent bunch and we were all well aware that due to the release of the Avengers movie accompanied with the direction Scott Summers had been headed (with X force / the Schism / the who Extinction Squad ) that the X-men would be the Villain (or one more then others I honestly figured Hope at the start of the story) and after a long battle between the two factions the X-men would wise up and team up with the Avengers to defeat the common foe before they destroyed the world.

Purge yourself of all your grand comic book knowledge and let’s start from the start, and let me at least present a way you could make a case for this whole story ending entirely different if it wasn’t for your beloved Captain America.

You see Cap I believe was the catalyst in this event, he was the person who made everything go wrong and it started right at the start. I will list below just a few example of things he done that if maybe where handled a different way might of changed the entire course of AVX.

His Approach:: Yes Cap started off in issue number one on the wrong foot. I understand that a cosmic entity is coming to earth that could very well destroy, but come on guys it’s not the first time this fire bird of destruction has been on earth and all times before that the X-Men had dealt with it and the earth remained largely intact. For some reason though Cap felt he had to go to utopia and DEMAND that Cyclops hand over hope, he not only went to Cyclops house and made demands for him to turn over his grand daughter who many believed to be the messiah of a fallen race, but he did it with an ARMY of super heroes.

Think about this for a minute, a man comes to your door demanding you to turn over a loved one with all intent on what? Killing her? That’s the only thing that made sense to me. And he didn’t come alone.

It was apparent that if Cyclops didn’t do exactly what he said he was Cap was going to use force to get what he wanted, why? What had the group of men and women known has the X-Men done to deserve such an ultimatum? Saved the world time and time again? Yes Cyclops may of blasted Cap right off his beach but Cap made it apparent that it was either that or roll over and let them do what they wanted with his Grand daughter, I think any man would fight to save his family in such a situation.

Complete Lack of Trust:: This goes hand in hand with his first offense. Let’s take a little moment to reflect, not that long ago Scarlet witch went crazy and the X-men realized she was a serious threat. They went to the Avengers and Demanded they handed her over so she could be penalized for crimes she had committed. Cap told Cyclops that he would handle it, and Cyclops TRUSTED him to do so. What did that get him? Well Scarlet witch flipped out and decimated most of the Mutant population, still you didn’t see Cyclops knocking on Cap’s door saying I told you so and trying to kill him.

The point I’m trying to make is Cyclops didn’t show up with every X-men in creation and Demand Scarlet Witch’s head or ELSE. He went, the two talked and they peacefully decided what to do, SHE WAS an avenger and she would be dealt with by the Avengers. Why couldn’t Cap trust Cyclops to do the same with Hope?

Total disregard for history: Ok let’s be real, the Phoenix or Dark Phoenix has always been an X-men problem and as I hinted to earlier one they have dealt with. Jean controlled the Phoenix for years, as did Rachel. Also when Jean lost control the X-men stepped in and did what had to be done, despite how much Cyclops loved Jean, despite what Logan or Charles or anyone else felt for jean. When crunch time came they did what had to be done. It is even proved in Issue 11 when it is finally apparent that Cyclops and Emma have gone over the edge and the X-Men DO THE RIGHT THING, and join up with the avengers to defeat them.

So why not now? Why did the Avengers have to do something before hand? To top it off Rachel Summers controlled the phoenix for a very long time, so who could be 100 percent sure hope couldn’t have? Not Cap that is for sure. They know what the phoenix is but how many of them have actually dealt with it first hand? 2 maybe 3? Most of them were part of the X-men at that time, now how many X-men had dealt with it? A good bit more, what I am saying is History dictates the X-men were capable of dealing with this without Earth being burnt to a crisp. So why did Cap think he had to interject himself now? What is so different now?

Total Lack of Communication: I have read this whole series and I am still not sure what cap’s plan was, and I am pretty sure neither did Cyclops. I mean as far as I could tell his entire plan was to get hope, and put a bullet in her head. Doesn’t sound like a very suitable plan to me, not only was that Cyclop’s granddaughter but if you read the secret avengers tie it looked to me that any planet the Phoenix didn’t find a host in they just burnt and went on. So if their wasn’t a suitable host on earth whats to say it wouldn’t just sorch it and keep going? I think you have a much better chance I don’t know taking the host to the moon, letting them get the Phoenix force seeing if they can control it if and if they couldn’t “Snikt” them. Of course that wasn’t cap’s plan either it was Hope’s.

What I am basically saying is to be a great strategist he didn’t seem to have much of plan, and if he did he didn’t share it with anyone especially not Cyclops. I am sorry but as a parent or grand parent either one I don’t think you could expect him to hand over Hope to some one who as best you can tell plans to kill her. I mean The Avengers have never helped Mutants before why now? They weren’t trying to stop the Sentinels, they weren’t trying to fight for mutant rights not to register (they sure didn’t like it when that rolled over to them though did they?), they don’t fight purifiers or other mutant only threats, so why should anyone believe he was too concerned over one little mutant girl’s life?

Plain Stubborn: Ok maybe this is just me but after the Phoenix power was divided into 5 different host aka The Phoenix 5, Cap didn’t even give them a chance. Absolute power corrupts absolutely sure, but this wasn’t absolute power it was divided among 5 beings not one like normal. They did good, and they didn’t do it alone. Rogue had a conversation with Iceman during one of the comics talking about how the Phoenix 5 just opened their eyes to all the things they could of done with their powers if they weren’t busy fighting for their survival. Even Beast who had sided solidly with the Avengers at one point was feed up with his logic and left off in a dizzy. To top it all off more then likely the smartest man in the Marvel Universe Reed Richards said that he wasn’t sure that the Phoenix 5 was bad in an issue of the New Avengers (the one where he summoned Namor)

Now Despite the fact that they had done nothing but GOOD, he continued to attack them and treat them as villains. I am sorry but after you get a rock thrown at you so many times your going to start throwing rocks back, The X-men didn’t out law the avengers until they kid napped hope and it was apparent that Cap wasn’t going to stop without some sort of war. Cap provoked the X-men, he is the reason they hunted down Avengers and captured them. He is the reason Namor got feed up and attacked Wakanda, which is also the first of the Phoenix 5 to fall and thus started the chain reaction of the power being spread to the others and eventually driving the sole Phoenix (cyclops) insane with power.

Also I think it says something that after the phoenix force was divided into the 5 host that the TOTALLY flipped his view, he was 110 percent against Hope being the host of the Phoenix. Then he made it his quest to kid nap her so what? So she could take the Phoenix Force from them? Isn’t that what he was trying to stop to begin with, it’s simple math that if the power of the Phoenix is spread over more people it should be easier to control, so wasn’t Iron Man’s misfire a good thing? Shouldn’t he at least have given them a chance instead of automatically assuming they were evil now? Was he so set on being right that he just changed sides mid way through the Series cause that’s what I got from it.

That is about it, but I think if you took time to actually read it you can see that for the events of Avengers vs. X-men to unfold the way they did certain domino’s had to be pushed over and most all of them were by Captain America. Yes you could blame the Avengers as a whole but I don’t, they did what any good team would and followed their leader who they trusted to make the right decision. He however proved to be head strong, and hasty in everything he did. His only concern seemed to be being right, he never once attempted to work it out with Cyclops. Not once did he offer to work with them, he came to the front door with an Army and demanded Cyclops do as told or Else. Yes Cyclops may of fired the first shots in the war, but it was Cap who left him no choice in the matter.

Amen. but the way he is written Captain america can never be wrong even when hes dead wrong.

What cap did was basically....

its like if you see a bear a few blocks away. its resting calm & cool & you know it could be potentially dangerous even though its nice right now. so... you go over there start kicking the crap out of the bear & when it gets mad & rips your head off. its looked at as the bad guy

-_______-

#34 Posted by Magethor (1054 posts) - - Show Bio

@McKlayn:

Captain America was following orders by the President. Cyclops didn't have the ultimatum, it was Captain that had the initial ultimatum when he was told what he had to do. Gotta remember, Captain is 1st and foremost a solider of the U.S.A....He unlike the X-Men isn't really independent to his own decisions. The Avengers unlike the X-Men are government funded. Avengers = Government /// X-Men = Independent. That's why the Avenger didn't help the X-Men back during Trask's Sentinel Saga and the Mutant Registration arc. They wanted too, but they couldn't. Government Order.

So sure blame it on Capt. He's usually the scapegoat in alot of events anyway.

#35 Edited by DeviousBastard (136 posts) - - Show Bio

@joshmightbe said:

All the real blame for this whole debacle rests with Cable, he ran in attacked the Avengers instead of even attempting to explain what was going on then ran back to the Xmen giving the impression that they were helping out with the whole Cable trying to murder them thing and as an added bonus the same people who Cable made look insanely suspicious in the attack where actively trying to control an unpredictable cosmic sun eating entity that has repeatedly threatened the safety of the planet. And then when all the crap gets started Cable is no where to be found. So you want to blame someone for AVX its not Cyke or Cap, its Cable pure and simple.

Do The Avengers even know why Cable attacked them?

#36 Posted by Magethor (1054 posts) - - Show Bio

@DeviousBastard said:

@joshmightbe said:

All the real blame for this whole debacle rests with Cable, he ran in attacked the Avengers instead of even attempting to explain what was going on then ran back to the Xmen giving the impression that they were helping out with the whole Cable trying to murder them thing and as an added bonus the same people who Cable made look insanely suspicious in the attack where actively trying to control an unpredictable cosmic sun eating entity that has repeatedly threatened the safety of the planet. And then when all the crap gets started Cable is no where to be found. So you want to blame someone for AVX its not Cyke or Cap, its Cable pure and simple.

Do The Avengers even know why Cable attacked them?

Well, he's from the future. He was trying to alter history to save the future like he (and Bishop) always do. Also, both of them really never have to explain why unless they are defeated and forced to talk about it. Anyway, I'm not sure on this, but I don't think Cable is the only one that traveled back from the future otherwise, why would the government know about Hope too?

#37 Posted by joshmightbe (24876 posts) - - Show Bio

@Magethor: No he's not the only time traveler but that's not even close to the point. If Cable had at least attempted to explain his side before jumping straight to attack mode they could have tried to find a better way of dealing with the situation.

#38 Posted by mettlekm (417 posts) - - Show Bio

@PowerHerc said:

The only thing Captain America has ever been a villain to is Nazi Germany, hence he was a villain to actual villains.

and to the porcupine... He was villain to the villain porcupine not the animal... as far as i know...

#39 Posted by pkodelia (7 posts) - - Show Bio

@McKlayn said:

Ok now that the title has you ready to crucify me, I would like you to take a second before reading this post. Clear your mind of everything that has happened in AvX and all the common preconceptions we all had before reading. Yes Comic book readers are an intelligent bunch and we were all well aware that due to the release of the Avengers movie accompanied with the direction Scott Summers had been headed (with X force / the Schism / the who Extinction Squad ) that the X-men would be the Villain (or one more then others I honestly figured Hope at the start of the story) and after a long battle between the two factions the X-men would wise up and team up with the Avengers to defeat the common foe before they destroyed the world.

Purge yourself of all your grand comic book knowledge and let’s start from the start, and let me at least present a way you could make a case for this whole story ending entirely different if it wasn’t for your beloved Captain America.

You see Cap I believe was the catalyst in this event, he was the person who made everything go wrong and it started right at the start. I will list below just a few example of things he done that if maybe where handled a different way might of changed the entire course of AVX.

His Approach:: Yes Cap started off in issue number one on the wrong foot. I understand that a cosmic entity is coming to earth that could very well destroy, but come on guys it’s not the first time this fire bird of destruction has been on earth and all times before that the X-Men had dealt with it and the earth remained largely intact. For some reason though Cap felt he had to go to utopia and DEMAND that Cyclops hand over hope, he not only went to Cyclops house and made demands for him to turn over his grand daughter who many believed to be the messiah of a fallen race, but he did it with an ARMY of super heroes.

Think about this for a minute, a man comes to your door demanding you to turn over a loved one with all intent on what? Killing her? That’s the only thing that made sense to me. And he didn’t come alone.

It was apparent that if Cyclops didn’t do exactly what he said he was Cap was going to use force to get what he wanted, why? What had the group of men and women known has the X-Men done to deserve such an ultimatum? Saved the world time and time again? Yes Cyclops may of blasted Cap right off his beach but Cap made it apparent that it was either that or roll over and let them do what they wanted with his Grand daughter, I think any man would fight to save his family in such a situation.

Complete Lack of Trust:: This goes hand in hand with his first offense. Let’s take a little moment to reflect, not that long ago Scarlet witch went crazy and the X-men realized she was a serious threat. They went to the Avengers and Demanded they handed her over so she could be penalized for crimes she had committed. Cap told Cyclops that he would handle it, and Cyclops TRUSTED him to do so. What did that get him? Well Scarlet witch flipped out and decimated most of the Mutant population, still you didn’t see Cyclops knocking on Cap’s door saying I told you so and trying to kill him.

The point I’m trying to make is Cyclops didn’t show up with every X-men in creation and Demand Scarlet Witch’s head or ELSE. He went, the two talked and they peacefully decided what to do, SHE WAS an avenger and she would be dealt with by the Avengers. Why couldn’t Cap trust Cyclops to do the same with Hope?

Total disregard for history: Ok let’s be real, the Phoenix or Dark Phoenix has always been an X-men problem and as I hinted to earlier one they have dealt with. Jean controlled the Phoenix for years, as did Rachel. Also when Jean lost control the X-men stepped in and did what had to be done, despite how much Cyclops loved Jean, despite what Logan or Charles or anyone else felt for jean. When crunch time came they did what had to be done. It is even proved in Issue 11 when it is finally apparent that Cyclops and Emma have gone over the edge and the X-Men DO THE RIGHT THING, and join up with the avengers to defeat them.

So why not now? Why did the Avengers have to do something before hand? To top it off Rachel Summers controlled the phoenix for a very long time, so who could be 100 percent sure hope couldn’t have? Not Cap that is for sure. They know what the phoenix is but how many of them have actually dealt with it first hand? 2 maybe 3? Most of them were part of the X-men at that time, now how many X-men had dealt with it? A good bit more, what I am saying is History dictates the X-men were capable of dealing with this without Earth being burnt to a crisp. So why did Cap think he had to interject himself now? What is so different now?

Total Lack of Communication: I have read this whole series and I am still not sure what cap’s plan was, and I am pretty sure neither did Cyclops. I mean as far as I could tell his entire plan was to get hope, and put a bullet in her head. Doesn’t sound like a very suitable plan to me, not only was that Cyclop’s granddaughter but if you read the secret avengers tie it looked to me that any planet the Phoenix didn’t find a host in they just burnt and went on. So if their wasn’t a suitable host on earth whats to say it wouldn’t just sorch it and keep going? I think you have a much better chance I don’t know taking the host to the moon, letting them get the Phoenix force seeing if they can control it if and if they couldn’t “Snikt” them. Of course that wasn’t cap’s plan either it was Hope’s.

What I am basically saying is to be a great strategist he didn’t seem to have much of plan, and if he did he didn’t share it with anyone especially not Cyclops. I am sorry but as a parent or grand parent either one I don’t think you could expect him to hand over Hope to some one who as best you can tell plans to kill her. I mean The Avengers have never helped Mutants before why now? They weren’t trying to stop the Sentinels, they weren’t trying to fight for mutant rights not to register (they sure didn’t like it when that rolled over to them though did they?), they don’t fight purifiers or other mutant only threats, so why should anyone believe he was too concerned over one little mutant girl’s life?

Plain Stubborn: Ok maybe this is just me but after the Phoenix power was divided into 5 different host aka The Phoenix 5, Cap didn’t even give them a chance. Absolute power corrupts absolutely sure, but this wasn’t absolute power it was divided among 5 beings not one like normal. They did good, and they didn’t do it alone. Rogue had a conversation with Iceman during one of the comics talking about how the Phoenix 5 just opened their eyes to all the things they could of done with their powers if they weren’t busy fighting for their survival. Even Beast who had sided solidly with the Avengers at one point was feed up with his logic and left off in a dizzy. To top it all off more then likely the smartest man in the Marvel Universe Reed Richards said that he wasn’t sure that the Phoenix 5 was bad in an issue of the New Avengers (the one where he summoned Namor)

Now Despite the fact that they had done nothing but GOOD, he continued to attack them and treat them as villains. I am sorry but after you get a rock thrown at you so many times your going to start throwing rocks back, The X-men didn’t out law the avengers until they kid napped hope and it was apparent that Cap wasn’t going to stop without some sort of war. Cap provoked the X-men, he is the reason they hunted down Avengers and captured them. He is the reason Namor got feed up and attacked Wakanda, which is also the first of the Phoenix 5 to fall and thus started the chain reaction of the power being spread to the others and eventually driving the sole Phoenix (cyclops) insane with power.

Also I think it says something that after the phoenix force was divided into the 5 host that the TOTALLY flipped his view, he was 110 percent against Hope being the host of the Phoenix. Then he made it his quest to kid nap her so what? So she could take the Phoenix Force from them? Isn’t that what he was trying to stop to begin with, it’s simple math that if the power of the Phoenix is spread over more people it should be easier to control, so wasn’t Iron Man’s misfire a good thing? Shouldn’t he at least have given them a chance instead of automatically assuming they were evil now? Was he so set on being right that he just changed sides mid way through the Series cause that’s what I got from it.

That is about it, but I think if you took time to actually read it you can see that for the events of Avengers vs. X-men to unfold the way they did certain domino’s had to be pushed over and most all of them were by Captain America. Yes you could blame the Avengers as a whole but I don’t, they did what any good team would and followed their leader who they trusted to make the right decision. He however proved to be head strong, and hasty in everything he did. His only concern seemed to be being right, he never once attempted to work it out with Cyclops. Not once did he offer to work with them, he came to the front door with an Army and demanded Cyclops do as told or Else. Yes Cyclops may of fired the first shots in the war, but it was Cap who left him no choice in the matter.

wow mr. op you make very good points and this was very interesting to read. i never considered this but now i will give it some thought.

#40 Posted by KingUranus (218 posts) - - Show Bio

@pkodelia said:

@McKlayn said:

Ok now that the title has you ready to crucify me, I would like you to take a second before reading this post. Clear your mind of everything that has happened in AvX and all the common preconceptions we all had before reading. Yes Comic book readers are an intelligent bunch and we were all well aware that due to the release of the Avengers movie accompanied with the direction Scott Summers had been headed (with X force / the Schism / the who Extinction Squad ) that the X-men would be the Villain (or one more then others I honestly figured Hope at the start of the story) and after a long battle between the two factions the X-men would wise up and team up with the Avengers to defeat the common foe before they destroyed the world.

Purge yourself of all your grand comic book knowledge and let’s start from the start, and let me at least present a way you could make a case for this whole story ending entirely different if it wasn’t for your beloved Captain America.

You see Cap I believe was the catalyst in this event, he was the person who made everything go wrong and it started right at the start. I will list below just a few example of things he done that if maybe where handled a different way might of changed the entire course of AVX.

His Approach:: Yes Cap started off in issue number one on the wrong foot. I understand that a cosmic entity is coming to earth that could very well destroy, but come on guys it’s not the first time this fire bird of destruction has been on earth and all times before that the X-Men had dealt with it and the earth remained largely intact. For some reason though Cap felt he had to go to utopia and DEMAND that Cyclops hand over hope, he not only went to Cyclops house and made demands for him to turn over his grand daughter who many believed to be the messiah of a fallen race, but he did it with an ARMY of super heroes.

Think about this for a minute, a man comes to your door demanding you to turn over a loved one with all intent on what? Killing her? That’s the only thing that made sense to me. And he didn’t come alone.

It was apparent that if Cyclops didn’t do exactly what he said he was Cap was going to use force to get what he wanted, why? What had the group of men and women known has the X-Men done to deserve such an ultimatum? Saved the world time and time again? Yes Cyclops may of blasted Cap right off his beach but Cap made it apparent that it was either that or roll over and let them do what they wanted with his Grand daughter, I think any man would fight to save his family in such a situation.

Complete Lack of Trust:: This goes hand in hand with his first offense. Let’s take a little moment to reflect, not that long ago Scarlet witch went crazy and the X-men realized she was a serious threat. They went to the Avengers and Demanded they handed her over so she could be penalized for crimes she had committed. Cap told Cyclops that he would handle it, and Cyclops TRUSTED him to do so. What did that get him? Well Scarlet witch flipped out and decimated most of the Mutant population, still you didn’t see Cyclops knocking on Cap’s door saying I told you so and trying to kill him.

The point I’m trying to make is Cyclops didn’t show up with every X-men in creation and Demand Scarlet Witch’s head or ELSE. He went, the two talked and they peacefully decided what to do, SHE WAS an avenger and she would be dealt with by the Avengers. Why couldn’t Cap trust Cyclops to do the same with Hope?

Total disregard for history: Ok let’s be real, the Phoenix or Dark Phoenix has always been an X-men problem and as I hinted to earlier one they have dealt with. Jean controlled the Phoenix for years, as did Rachel. Also when Jean lost control the X-men stepped in and did what had to be done, despite how much Cyclops loved Jean, despite what Logan or Charles or anyone else felt for jean. When crunch time came they did what had to be done. It is even proved in Issue 11 when it is finally apparent that Cyclops and Emma have gone over the edge and the X-Men DO THE RIGHT THING, and join up with the avengers to defeat them.

So why not now? Why did the Avengers have to do something before hand? To top it off Rachel Summers controlled the phoenix for a very long time, so who could be 100 percent sure hope couldn’t have? Not Cap that is for sure. They know what the phoenix is but how many of them have actually dealt with it first hand? 2 maybe 3? Most of them were part of the X-men at that time, now how many X-men had dealt with it? A good bit more, what I am saying is History dictates the X-men were capable of dealing with this without Earth being burnt to a crisp. So why did Cap think he had to interject himself now? What is so different now?

Total Lack of Communication: I have read this whole series and I am still not sure what cap’s plan was, and I am pretty sure neither did Cyclops. I mean as far as I could tell his entire plan was to get hope, and put a bullet in her head. Doesn’t sound like a very suitable plan to me, not only was that Cyclop’s granddaughter but if you read the secret avengers tie it looked to me that any planet the Phoenix didn’t find a host in they just burnt and went on. So if their wasn’t a suitable host on earth whats to say it wouldn’t just sorch it and keep going? I think you have a much better chance I don’t know taking the host to the moon, letting them get the Phoenix force seeing if they can control it if and if they couldn’t “Snikt” them. Of course that wasn’t cap’s plan either it was Hope’s.

What I am basically saying is to be a great strategist he didn’t seem to have much of plan, and if he did he didn’t share it with anyone especially not Cyclops. I am sorry but as a parent or grand parent either one I don’t think you could expect him to hand over Hope to some one who as best you can tell plans to kill her. I mean The Avengers have never helped Mutants before why now? They weren’t trying to stop the Sentinels, they weren’t trying to fight for mutant rights not to register (they sure didn’t like it when that rolled over to them though did they?), they don’t fight purifiers or other mutant only threats, so why should anyone believe he was too concerned over one little mutant girl’s life?

Plain Stubborn: Ok maybe this is just me but after the Phoenix power was divided into 5 different host aka The Phoenix 5, Cap didn’t even give them a chance. Absolute power corrupts absolutely sure, but this wasn’t absolute power it was divided among 5 beings not one like normal. They did good, and they didn’t do it alone. Rogue had a conversation with Iceman during one of the comics talking about how the Phoenix 5 just opened their eyes to all the things they could of done with their powers if they weren’t busy fighting for their survival. Even Beast who had sided solidly with the Avengers at one point was feed up with his logic and left off in a dizzy. To top it all off more then likely the smartest man in the Marvel Universe Reed Richards said that he wasn’t sure that the Phoenix 5 was bad in an issue of the New Avengers (the one where he summoned Namor)

Now Despite the fact that they had done nothing but GOOD, he continued to attack them and treat them as villains. I am sorry but after you get a rock thrown at you so many times your going to start throwing rocks back, The X-men didn’t out law the avengers until they kid napped hope and it was apparent that Cap wasn’t going to stop without some sort of war. Cap provoked the X-men, he is the reason they hunted down Avengers and captured them. He is the reason Namor got feed up and attacked Wakanda, which is also the first of the Phoenix 5 to fall and thus started the chain reaction of the power being spread to the others and eventually driving the sole Phoenix (cyclops) insane with power.

Also I think it says something that after the phoenix force was divided into the 5 host that the TOTALLY flipped his view, he was 110 percent against Hope being the host of the Phoenix. Then he made it his quest to kid nap her so what? So she could take the Phoenix Force from them? Isn’t that what he was trying to stop to begin with, it’s simple math that if the power of the Phoenix is spread over more people it should be easier to control, so wasn’t Iron Man’s misfire a good thing? Shouldn’t he at least have given them a chance instead of automatically assuming they were evil now? Was he so set on being right that he just changed sides mid way through the Series cause that’s what I got from it.

That is about it, but I think if you took time to actually read it you can see that for the events of Avengers vs. X-men to unfold the way they did certain domino’s had to be pushed over and most all of them were by Captain America. Yes you could blame the Avengers as a whole but I don’t, they did what any good team would and followed their leader who they trusted to make the right decision. He however proved to be head strong, and hasty in everything he did. His only concern seemed to be being right, he never once attempted to work it out with Cyclops. Not once did he offer to work with them, he came to the front door with an Army and demanded Cyclops do as told or Else. Yes Cyclops may of fired the first shots in the war, but it was Cap who left him no choice in the matter.

wow mr. op you make very good points and this was very interesting to read. i never considered this but now i will give it some thought.

Good points, but apparently he hasn't read everything.

#41 Edited by GreenFuse (295 posts) - - Show Bio

@Gambit1024 said:

A very nice post with excellent points... but the only true villain in AvX is terrible writing.

So true. I have to admit, I thought the Phoenix 5 and now Dark Cyclops are pretty badass, but the whole conflict between the teams is terrible. The X-Men being painted as naive about the PF when they've had the most experience with it. I mean...come on.

/goes to happy place

#42 Posted by Timandm (3374 posts) - - Show Bio

@McKlayn said:

To a few Points

he may not of planned on killing her but what did he plan then? If it was nothing but watching her why did he not trust the X-men to do it? Also the President wanted it handled? The president also ordered all the super human beings to be registered but he didn't mind standing up for himself on that one?

The biggest thing im making is that Cap wasn't completely right like a lot of the series seems to make it out to be. Really most threads i've read have made it out that cyclops was a clear cut douche that deserved to die. I think hes only done what anyone would do to protect their family and cap pushed the buttons in all this without thinking clearly first

THIS THIS THIS THIS THIS THIS THIS THIS THIS!!!!!

What EXACTLY did Cap and the Avengers plan to do? I covered this is a blog.... After invading a country they were not citizens of (Utopia) and Abducting a citizen of that country against her will (HOPE) what EXACTLY did they have in mind?

1: Hiding Hope - So, the Phoenix knows Hopes address even from the other side of the universe... And the Avengers are going to "Hide" her? Really? REALLY? WHERE?!?! Even with only half the Phoenix power, Summers found her in Kun Lun...

2: Killing Hope - The last time Phoenix was on the earth in full power, it was in Jean Grey... As she and Wolverine drifted towards the sun, and Jean was suffering from the heat, Wolverine stabbed her through the heart and killed her. and then VOILA she came back to life.. MORE full of the Phoenix than before.

3: Shooting the Phoenix - Well, they didn't need Hope present for that, now did they? and we can all see how well that went...

My point is, there simply was no practical reason for the Avengers to abduct Hope... If they had taken her, how would things be any different?

@danhimself said:

both sides were at fault...Captain America and the Avengers screwed up by going after Hope in the first place and pretty much instigating the Phoenix 5 into going dark but in all fairness Cyclops was an idiot...to think that he could control the Phoenix when Jean couldn't is idiotic

True, Scott should have known he couldn't but to be fair, you have consider two things:

1: Jean lost control only AFTER Mastermind messed with her mind and gave her false memories, driving her insane.

2: Scott hadn't planed on receiving the power of the Phoenix. That was Tony Stark's doing. The Phoenix power was thrust on Scott unexpectedly and suddenly... I imagine, once someone has the Phoenix IN them, they no longer think as they used to....

#43 Posted by One_Eye (783 posts) - - Show Bio

@danhimself: @McKlayn: @John Valentine: @_slim_: I'm not going to talk about who is or who isn't the villain, however, I will say that no one is innocent. Anyones' who thrown punch, shot a blast, flew into battle,etc. There's not a single person to blame.

#44 Posted by davelecave (1113 posts) - - Show Bio

@Gambit1024 said:

A very nice post with excellent points... but the only true villain in AvX is terrible writing.

And if we wanna get technical, Cable started it the minute he attacked the Avengers. Any hostility Cap may or may not have had prior to stepping on Utopia is, in my opinion, justified.

#45 Posted by Strider92 (16284 posts) - - Show Bio

Bendis is the true villain!!!!

#46 Posted by Timandm (3374 posts) - - Show Bio

@Strider92 said:

Bendis is the true villain!!!!

Quoted for absolute truth!!!!!

#47 Posted by 7am_Waking_Up_In_The_Morning (3578 posts) - - Show Bio

@One_Eye said:

@danhimself: @McKlayn: @John Valentine: @_slim_: I'm not going to talk about who is or who isn't the villain, however, I will say that no one is innocent. Anyones' who thrown punch, shot a blast, flew into battle,etc. There's not a single person to blame.

Yes, there is. It's the Phoenix. Before coming to Earth, it vaporized the planet Terrax was protecting and its intent was to destroy Earth. Now that Cyclops is the full Phoenix who knows if he is able to tame its possession, but obviously not because he just killed the Professor.

#48 Posted by LeeSensei (385 posts) - - Show Bio

@Cap10nate said:

@MrShway88: They had no plans on killing her. Wolverine did . . . which is why Cap kicked him out of the plane. They did things that were helpful but they made themselves the dictators of the world by taking what was not theirs and exerting force where it was not requested. That is an act of war.

Actually, Captain America going to Cyclops' country (Utopia is a sovereign state with Cyclops as the leader) with an army of superhumans throwing around ultimatums and threats was an act of agression and war. Cyclops asked him to leave, but he refused. Captain America was wrong.

#49 Posted by Rumble Man (11119 posts) - - Show Bio

@Timandm said:

@Strider92 said:

Bendis is the true villain!!!!

Quoted for absolute truth!!!!!

Don't be fooled, quesada is pulling his strings

#50 Posted by xcole (1 posts) - - Show Bio

Bad writing is the villain! That is always the case, eh?

Anyway, I agree with the OP. Also Hi everybody! I'm new.

It's the little things that make this story awful. As previously mentioned, what does Cap plan to do with Hope anyway? If only they gave us a hint, something that the X-Men themselves wouldn't be able to do (which is the really important part), then maybe we'd understand Cap more. Consulting with Wolverine, the one thing they showed, is a very, very poor choice as we all know Wolverine intends on killing Hope, as he has shown he doesn't care for her at all (doesn't bother to get to know her) and even tells here in Gen Hope that eventually, he is going to have to kill her. So barging in to Utopia, with an unknown plan, bringing a helicarrier full of superheroes ready for an attack... what does that say? What has Cyclops and the X-Men done at this point that warrants that force, that threat on their doorstep?

But he's under orders. Under orders from who? The US government (pardon me, i'm not being political here but since the government was mentioned earlier..) OK. So now their government has a say in another country's (Utopia) problems. That makes it even worse. You're now going to detain an innocent (because she hasn't done anything yet at this point), and getting to her with force if you need to. So that's an act of war. Cyclops may have fired the first shot, and it makes him look bad to the readers, but it would have gotten to that even if he didn't. Both of them were going to force each other's hands.

Then when the Phoenix 5 got their powers... There was a page where it showed a group of Avengers reporting in to Cap. "Hey we're getting our asses kicked by these villains and look who shows up, phoenixed-out Colossus!" Cap asks what happens next and the group says colossus "Talked with the villains". Talked. Not even crushing them. Talked. And the result was they get free electricity. And what was his reaction to this? He was so disappointed. And goes back (next page) to his team and asks for a plan of action. To which Beast suggests is it better to do something at this point that to do nothing, to which they object which forces Beast to leave the group.

Then the UN meeting. Iron Man was ready to tell the president what happened in the meeting and was going to tell it with his own bias (that's why black panther stopped him). So black panther stopped him, and was actually not really against what the phoenix 5 was about. But the president said that everyone has to be accountable to their actions. So they have to stop them. And now there's a problem to this too! This decision was made in that room alone. The Phoenix 5 was a problem for the WORLD. But they decided to take care of it themselves. For poorer countries this was a great thing, as Black panther alluded on his dialogue on this page. But nope, they have to answer to someone, and that's that. And that has got to be us, the government, the avengers.

It's baaad writing. However, the end result is they're making the X-Men, not in the least Cyclops, to be the villains here, when it was clearly not. All of this mess, including splitting the phoenix, was the Avenger's fault.

And now the Avengers are out of time, as Iron Man keeps saying (I need more time!), while they could have come up with a better plan while not poking the Phoenix and letting it do it's thing for a while. Nope. Captain America needs a plan of action. Good thing he didn't mean a plan of action with substance.