#151 Posted by Dredeuced (5353 posts) - - Show Bio

@dredeuced said:

Picosecond is a scale of time. GR's attacks still happen in a given amount of time. GUESS HE'S PHYSICS :P

Speed Force outright defies physics because you can go faster than light, ignore friction, ignore g-forces, ignore molecular cohesion, vibrate through dimensions, time travel backwards and forwards, create matter out of pure energy, etc etc. While its effects are frequently explained with physics, you can explain a lot of non-physics based superhero nonsense with physics even if their powers aren't based that way.

I mean, the Speed force is an infinite extradimensional energy source, nothing in physics that explains infinite energy in an alternate dimension.

Just because someone's powers are magical doesn't automatically make them better. Odin's powers are magical, would you say he beats Galactus, whose powers are sciencey? Course not!

That said, as I've admitted, Wally can't hurt the GRs (though apparently you can still use them in street level tournaments :P) so it's moot

FTL is not defying Physics. Students of a University already made a Laser that moves 3x FTL. It is not Speed Force. Infact everything you mention Science is trying and coming close to make theories about today.

Also can you measure Soul Burn for me? How about the energy of Hell? The Pain Damage of a Penance Stare?

Flash feats are mesurable by Science of today. GR Soul and Hell powers are not.

Magic/Reality Warping > Speed Force/Physics.

Now we are arguing semantics. :P

I'd like a source on that FTL thing -- I've heard of a few universities claiming FTL experiments, but they've all been proven completely false because our instruments don't actually calculate things faster than light. The only time anything's gone "faster than light" is when Light is slowed down (like in, say, water) and they bump an electron in the water to move faster than the light, but still slower than the c constant.

If it's the experiment I'm thinking, they shot it cross country, through a mountain range, and it "beat" the time it would take light to get there, but under further scrutiny it was an error in their calculations. Every claim of "FTL" in real life has been debunked or is currently under scrutiny for lack of evidence.

I think you're being silly attributing EVERYTHING that is magical to being better than everything that is physics related. Like I said, Galactus is way more powerful than magical sky fathers, and his powers come from eating energy from the universe (IE physics) in a way that is quantifiable.

also, come on, one of Wally's most notorious rogues is Abra Kadabra, a reality warper, and he beats him all the time. (This is the guy who can literally erase a person from ever have existing throughout reality, like he did Linda), so don't tell me Speed Force can't beat reality warpers.

#152 Posted by Pokergeist (22351 posts) - - Show Bio

@dredeuced:

http://www.cbsnews.com/2100-205_162-216905.html

http://physicsworld.com/cws/article/news/2000/jul/19/laser-smashes-light-speed-record (One I am refereeing too)

http://gizmodo.com/5908206/did-scientists-really-just-break-the-speed-of-light

All legit sites of info.

Also no, I really do not belive Magic auto wins. Just the Power Output.

Example Captain Atom > Zattana. However I believe Odin (Base on feats) > Captain Atom.

Wally Speed Force > Johny Blaze Hell Power Output.

Zarathos Hell Power Output > Wally with Speed Force.

This is my Magic vs Physics view.

As far from my understanding of Abra Kadabra, both he and Zoom >>>>> any Flash. The fact is Zoom and Abra are both >>> to Wally yet through plot and comic writing the Flash would win. Same reason why his Rogues are a threat to Flash.

#153 Edited by Dredeuced (5353 posts) - - Show Bio

@cadencev2 said:

@dredeuced:

http://www.cbsnews.com/2100-205_162-216905.html

http://physicsworld.com/cws/article/news/2000/jul/19/laser-smashes-light-speed-record (One I am refereeing too)

http://gizmodo.com/5908206/did-scientists-really-just-break-the-speed-of-light

All legit sites of info.

Also no, I really do not belive Magic auto wins. Just the Power Output.

Example Captain Atom > Zattana. However I believe Odin (Base on feats) > Captain Atom.

Wally Speed Force > Johny Blaze Hell Power Output.

Zarathos Hell Power Output > Wally with Speed Force.

This is my Magic vs Physics view.

As far from my understanding of Abra Kadabra, both he and Zoom >>>>> any Flash. The fact is Zoom and Abra are both >>> to Wally yet through plot and comic writing the Flash would win. Same reason why his Rogues are a threat to Flash.

Zoom isn't >>> than any Flash, sufficiently amped Flashes beat him (Bart did, Wally did twice). Abra Kadabra is more powerful than Wally, but he can still be blitzed before he uses his powers (a typical way to quickly beat him) and Wally has used things like thinking at super speeds to develop plans to beat him.

Speed Force basically beat Darkseid (both the ALE and through the Black Flash), has reset the entirety of a multiverse in flashpoint, lots of things. I don't think you could say something is outright more powerful than the speed force even if Wally lacks a way to hurt magic/sacred only beings like full power GRs.

Well, except maybe speed steal. Don't know how that would work on a magic guy.

Also I like how all of your links point out "Faster than light, except for the fact that they're not faster than light. Here's how we use wave propogation!" etc -- with the end of the article explicitly stating skepticism in the physics community. It sounds exactly like every faster than light claim I've seen on the internet or at school.

#154 Edited by Pokergeist (22351 posts) - - Show Bio

@dredeuced: Speed steal steals momentum. However how would that work on a being who can summon more energy and power as well create Hell Fire Avatars with a thought?

Speed steal only been use on Physical Power Houses from what I seen.

#155 Edited by Dredeuced (5353 posts) - - Show Bio

@cadencev2 said:

@dredeuced: Speed steal steals momentum. However how would that work on a being who can summon more energy and power as well create Hell Fire Avatars with a thought?

Speed steal only been use on Physical Power Houses from what I seen.

Wally's speed controlling powers have been used on energy -- he's sped up JL teleporters, electron transmissions, thinking speeds(can shut off someone's brain like Walter West). He's speed stolen magical constructs made by Kadabra.

I imagine he'd just keep stealing the energy until GR ran out? Who knows, Wally doesn't usually deal with magic, just like how GR hasn't dealt with speed force users. :P

#156 Posted by Pokergeist (22351 posts) - - Show Bio

@cadencev2 said:

@dredeuced: Speed steal steals momentum. However how would that work on a being who can summon more energy and power as well create Hell Fire Avatars with a thought?

Speed steal only been use on Physical Power Houses from what I seen.

Wally's speed controlling powers have been used on energy -- he's sped up JL teleporters, electron transmissions, thinking speeds(can shut off someone's brain like Walter West). He's speed stolen magical constructs made by Kadabra.

I imagine he'd just keep stealing the energy until GR ran out? Who knows, Wally doesn't usually deal with magic, just like how GR hasn't dealt with speed force users. :P

I also just thought of another guy who trumps wally hard core.

Archi Super Sonic.

or Archie Enerjak.

Speed Force < Chaos Emeralds.

#157 Edited by Dredeuced (5353 posts) - - Show Bio

@cadencev2: If you start bringing in multiversal busting/tanking dudes then you're getting a bit silly.

Chaos Emeralds > most abstracts. you need crap like LT or Morningstar to stand up to stuff like that. Don't need to indulge in hyperbole.

#158 Edited by Pokergeist (22351 posts) - - Show Bio

@cadencev2: If you start bringing in multiversal busting/tanking dudes then you're getting a bit silly.

Chaos Emeralds > most abstracts. you need crap like LT or Morningstar to stand up to stuff like that. Don't need to indulge in hyperbole.

Yeah I guess it is excessive.

#159 Posted by Omnicrono (1619 posts) - - Show Bio

@omnicrono: This has nothing to do with why Wally was removed.

Not that it has everything to do with it, but yes... I do believe it has a LOT to do with it. Certainly not "nothing."

#160 Edited by Dredeuced (5353 posts) - - Show Bio

@omnicrono said:

@dredeuced said:

@omnicrono: This has nothing to do with why Wally was removed.

Not that it has everything to do with it, but yes... I do believe it has a LOT to do with it. Certainly not "nothing."

Were you even paying attention to the Flash series when it happened? Wally was phased out in favor of Barry. When Wally's fans reacted by not buying the comics anymore, the continuity reset allowed them to remove Wally completely so there could be no more clamoring about him getting his own Flash title (now there's just clamoring to bring him back, c'est la vie). Didio outright stated it was because they wanted to bring Barry back.

Johns had, just before hand, gone on a very successful Flash run where they toned down Wally's powers -- the excuse being that the Spectre removing his memory of himself as the Flash forced him to relearn how to use his powers. If the issue was because Wally was too powerful, it would've been really easy to depower him (they did it with Powergirl, for instance).

It's not the first time they tried to replace Wally, either -- Bart got a short run before sales demanded they bring Wally back, and Bart was, speculatively, even more powerful than Wally. DC's issue was never "our heroes are too strong!" If it was then they wouldn't come right out of the gate with Superman lifting the planet for five days or Wonder Woman beating up gods.

#161 Edited by Malevolent1 (1072 posts) - - Show Bio

@dredeuced: Speed force affords very limited durability...it has to be the explanation for Wally not breaking more bones when he strikes with superhuman force. Nevertheless, he's still very human when it comes to durability:

Above, Wally is pretty maxed out so speed force should be protecting him at max, right? Yet, clearly, he tears muscles when he over does it.

Above, Wally expresses very real concern about his own durability...notice, he will be moving fast enough for the speed force to afford him some durability...but the speed force is very limited in terms of the durability it affords
JLA Classified 51, Wally expresses conern about his ribs
Flash 146, Wally expresses concern about his head

And just to be sure, let's examine the speed force and the extent of it's "protective" abilities with regard to other speedsters:

Max Mercury in serious pain...
Impulse...not in very good shape from blast
Flash 79, although not a bonafied light speed guy yet, the speed force should still protect from simple blows to the face, no? Yet above, Professor Zoom draws blood
Flash 102, the only thing that saved Wally on this? The speed force did not protect him...it clearly says it revved his reflexes so Mongul didn't get a direct blow in...and STILL, Wally's head is swimming...the only thing that saved the day for Wally on this fight? Mongul's arrogance

I could go on about Wally Wests durability; there are many more scans I could show of Wally demonstrating the lower end of the spectrum in durability, but I think we get the point. Speed force DOES generate some protection, but not enough to put Wally West in the elite. This is why Wally will never be (or SHOULD never be) mentioned in the same breath as Wonder Woman, Superman or Martian Manhunter. Wally is powerful, yes. His speed is phenomenal...but, durability is an issue.

#162 Edited by bob808 (6756 posts) - - Show Bio

Because he is the Flash

#163 Edited by Dredeuced (5353 posts) - - Show Bio

@malevolent1:Holy crap dude could you please learn to crop your images? It's not hard.

First scan: He punches a guy going half the speed of light and isn't harmed by it. If he didn't have absurd durability granted by the speed force he would vaporize himself. The Speed force does not protect him from his own body -- he can still pull his own muscles, twist his ankle, whatever. Running into something at high speeds that would literally KO Superman(Superman KO'd himself when he IMP'd a moon)? He didn't even break his hand. Speed Force protection.

Second scan: Glad you left out the context here. This is directly after the whole identity crisis junk where Wally erased his memories ala the Spectre and was relearning his powers. You can tell because he needs to take a ridiculous running start to build up speed when he never had to before. Here's the end of that little dive to take out Grodd:

Notice how A: he isn't even slightly hurt by the impact and B: His hand's just fine enough to shake Dick's without issue. He didn't hurt himself at all -- he just thought he would because, as most people would think, running into something really fast should hurt you. I gave you the context on WHY he thought this.

Third scan: Ok, so a giant monster grabs Wally and attempts to crush him and...he's minorly hurt? You think that's human durability? Because you said human durability. And yes, the "My ribs'll never be the same again" Sounds dire but Wally has a history of goofing around and overexaggerating.

Fourth scan: Yes, Wally can still be hurt by high powered hits. A normal person's head would've been taken clean off by that attack. Wally is still showing massively superhuman durability.

Fifth scan: For one, Max is being hurt directly by a speedster and a reality warper dicking with him. Secondly, he's not even moving. This scan doesn't really prove anything aside from the Speed Force can be countered by the...Speed Force. That is Wally West pretending to be Professor Zoom to trick Kadabra. It's a really, really long story, but yeah, I guess someone redirecting your nervous system through Speed Force control is a way to hurt Speedsters who are standing still thanks to reality warping.

Sixth scan: Ah yes, a high powered laser blasts an inexperienced, lower tier speedster through several walls and he lives. Clearly human durability -- totally not superhuman at all. Oh, wait, no, that's massively Superhuman durability from a Flash who's much less durable than Wally.

Seventh Scan: Wally didn't even know the Speed Force existed in this arc. This was during The Return of Barry Allen and Wally, at the time, was mentally cutting himself off from his speed for fear of replacing Barry -- and, equivalently, the protection it provides. Here are the next scans in that issue:

Also, I don't understand your point. A near lightspeed level speedster ramming his head into the pavement at Superspeed and he's not even unconscious? Not even dizzy? And you don't think that's Superhuman durability? Why don't you run the head of any street leveler into the wall at Mach 10 and see what happens -- hint, they go down. My main point is A: You showed Wally having superhuman durability and B: This was a much weaker version of Wally who was very, very early in his run. Your point is non-existent.

Eighth scan: Ok, you showed Wally partially dodging a hit and not actually being that hurt from a guy who punches Superman hard enough to KO him. This, again, doesn't show Wally lacks durability. Wally might have less durability than Supes (Arguable, the faster he goes the more impact he can take, so you have to scale it), but that doesn't preclude massively Superhuman durability. Wonder Woman is less durable than Supes and I'd give her massive durability, wouldn't you?

Wally has survived direct hits from Superboy Prime, GL constructs, Amazo (who has Superman's Strength AND Wally's speed), being rammed through thousands of miles of architecture by Zoom, near light speed attacks from other speedsters and a million other showings, all without dying and almost always without even being KO'd, and you seriously want to sit there and say he has human durability? What the hell?

I could go on about Wally Wests durability; there are many more scans I could show of Wally demonstrating the lower end of the spectrum in durability, but I think we get the point. Speed force DOES generate some protection, but enough to put Wally West in the elite. This is why Wally will never be (or SHOULD never be) mentioned in the same breath as Wonder Woman, Superman or Martian Manhunter. Wally is powerful, yes. His speed is phenomenal...but, durability is an issue.

I can play dueling Flash knowledge all day. I've read all of Wally's comics (and a lot of Barry's, but, you know, Silver/Bronze Age got the retcon boot) -- I'd bet money I know more about him than you. Yep, Flash's durability is an issue, look at all these attacks he's survived and kept on fighting through! I agree that Wally's durability is in the elite(I know it's just a typo and you meant to say not in the elite, but it's funny to jump on :P).

Wally should never be mentioned in the same braeth as WW, Supes, and J'onn? Why the hell not? Because they can survive the same attacks he can, but are vastly slower and have no counter for speed steal? I disagree -- greatly, and so do many others who're much more knowledgeable than us.

Come at me with every out of context Flash scan you can muster, I'll shoot them all down.

#164 Posted by Malevolent1 (1072 posts) - - Show Bio

@dredeuced: I used big images so everyone could see clearly.

Okay. He punches a guy going half the speed of light...but he still admits he could've been hurt. And you clearly admitted this:

The Speed force does not protect him from his own body -- he can still pull his own muscles, twist his ankle, whatever.


???

So, Wally can be hurt when you say he can be, but not during the scans I posted? Hmmmm....that wouldn't explain why you have clearly stated that the speed force protected Wally from Mongul's punch...while he was standing still??? Do you see where I'm going with this? Dude, Wally can clearly be hurt. You've admitted and the scans don't lie.

Ok, so a giant monster grabs Wally and attempts to crush him and...he's minorly hurt? You think that's human durability? Because you said human durability. And yes, the "My ribs'll never be the same again" Sounds dire but Wally has a history of goofing around and overexaggerating

*shakes head*

So Wally was just joking around? Sure convinced Green Lantern.

Yes, Wally can still be hurt by high powered hits. A normal person's head would've been taken clean off by that attack. Wally is still showing massively superhuman durability.

And who was the villain their again? Definitely must've been a Superman level guy if he took out Wally. Then again, maybe the speed force just gives limited durability like the scan actually indicates. Clearly, he was hurt, but feel free to believe what you want.

For one, Max is being hurt directly by a speedster and a reality warper dicking with him. Secondly, he's not even moving. This scan doesn't really prove anything aside from the Speed Force can be countered by the...Speed Force. That is Wally West pretending to be Professor Zoom to trick Kadabra. It's a really, really long story, but yeah, I guess someone redirecting your nervous system through Speed Force control is a way to hurt Speedsters who are standing still thanks to reality warping

But...Wally wasn't moving when Mongul hit him either...so how did the speed force protect him there?

Reality warper? Seriously? Kadabra used tech from the 64 century so advanced that it seemed like magic to 21st century folk. Later, he included actual magic. But he is not a reality warper. Please stop trying to elevate Kadabra to godlike status. He's not.

Ah yes, a high powered laser blasts an inexperienced, lower tier speedster through several walls and he lives. Clearly human durability -- totally not superhuman at all. Oh, wait, no, that's massively Superhuman durability from a Flash who's much less durable than Wally.

No one said is wasn't superhuman...but clearly, the speed force offers limited durability. Either he was hurt or he wasn't? Which is it? So just stop pretending okay? And, the speed force is indiscriminate, it affords the same durability to all speedsters. But nice try. Next.

Wally didn't even know the Speed Force existed in this arc. This was during The Return of Barry Allen and Wally, at the time, was mentally cutting himself off from his speed for fear of replacing Barry -- and, equivalently, the protection it provides.

You are mistaken...Wally had a confidence problem yes...but that is what was keeping him from achieving his potential:

Wally although afforded some protection by the speed force is clearly bleeding...
Professor Zoom, however, makes a mistake that sends Wally a step ahead in terms of speed
Wally breaks through his confidence problems not with speed force but out of desperation for the ones he is trying to protect

Clearly, the scan above shows Wally "always had the power...", he simply was having confidence issues trying to live up to the bar set by Barry Allan
And now they are on even footing

Clearly, the scans show nothing about him not knowing about the speed force. He knew about it. His problem was trying to live up to the standard set by Barry. You can paint this any way you want to, but the speed force has always been the source of Wally's power. Wally just didn't know it until Max Mercury made it clear to him.

Ok, you showed Wally partially dodging a hit and not actually being that hurt from a guy who punches Superman hard enough to KO him. This, again, doesn't show Wally lacks durability. Wally might have less durability than Supes (Arguable, the faster he goes the more impact he can take, so you have to scale it), but that doesn't preclude massively Superhuman durability. Wonder Woman is less durable than Supes and I'd give her massive durability, wouldn't you?

Wally has survived direct hits from Superboy Prime, GL constructs, Amazo (who has Superman's Strength AND Wally's speed), being rammed through thousands of miles of architecture by Zoom, near light speed attacks from other speedsters and a million other showings, all without dying and almost always without even being KO'd, and you seriously want to sit there and say he has human durability? What the hell?


Look at it any way you want to, the scan is clear: the speed force revved Wally's reflexes and that is what saved him. The limited durability the speed force affords him is what kept him from being DEAD. The scan from 102 is not a good one to make reference to if you are going to point to Wally's durability. And you seem to be missing my point: I never said the speed force doesn't offer any durability...it simply is limited in what it can give. Period.

I can play dueling Flash knowledge all day. I've read all of Wally's comics (and a lot of Barry's, but, you know, Silver/Bronze Age got the retcon boot) -- I'd bet money I know more about him than you. Yep, Flash's durability is an issue, look at all these attacks he's survived and kept on fighting through! I agree that Wally's durability is in the elite(I know it's just a typo and you meant to say not in the elite, but it's funny to jump on :P).

Wally should never be mentioned in the same braeth as WW, Supes, and J'onn? Why the hell not? Because they can survive the same attacks he can, but are vastly slower and have no counter for speed steal? I disagree -- greatly, and so do many others who're much more knowledgeable than us.

Come at me with every out of context Flash scan you can muster, I'll shoot them all down.

Hmmm....starting to seriously doubt that. You have not shown one piece of evidence that indicates anything contrary to what I've shown you.

I'll restate it: the speed force gives limited durability to the speed force user. Wally has suffered broken bones, cuts, scrapes, etc...and the speed force has always been the source of his power, even if he was not aware of it. Don't misunderstand: I'm slighting the character. Wally is a powerful character. But he can clearly be beat, particularly by upper tier characters who do not suffer from the same durability issues he does.

And I would keep the barbs about knowledge of characters to a minimum if I were you, since a), your logic is clearly flawed on this subject and b), you have to ask other members of the Vine how other character's powers work ("yeah, such and such explained it to me...". Really? Hmmmm....)

#165 Posted by Saren (25313 posts) - - Show Bio

For god's sake, what human being aspiring to sanity would claim Wally's durability is suspect because his ribs hurt after he was crushed by a being who casually lolstomped Superman in the same issue? That guy who crushed Wally's ribs also kicked the crap out of Superman and Wonder Woman simultaneously, then put Martian Manhunter into a coma and gave John Stewart a concussion and sent him stumbling along the Watchtower mumbling to himself.

Why even quote examples from issues you've never even pretended to read?

Moderator
#166 Edited by Dredeuced (5353 posts) - - Show Bio

You're literally outright lying now. You are the one who said Wally had Human durability in this very thread on page 3, 9th post down

@malevolent1 said:

A valid question.

Despite what many say on these forums say, the Flash is not the unbeatable character he's painted to be. A lot of his fans, who frequent these very forums, would have you believe he is. But he's not.

Now, having said that, ALL battles should be considered under these conditions, at all times:

1) each character bloodlusted/without morals...giving you their "A" game.

2) no PIS, atypical comic baloney (an example is given in the rules about a Superman comic lasting longer than two pages against some of his more mortal adversaries.

3) fight takes place on uninhabited planet approximately earth's gravity and atmosphere.

Too often, what the character "has done in the comic" is taken into consideration. It should not be. Why? Because, the PIS circumstances many of the stories are written under easily bleeds into a battle forums discussion. It should have absolutely NO PLACE on a battles forums.

Nevertheless, if Wally is considered under the circumstances indicated above, he will win a good portion of battle forum fights. Why? One word: speed. However, with the Flash character, his durability should always be part of the discussion. I understand that as a general rule, character's low showings should be omitted as "mulligans", or poor writing, take your pick...but Flash's showing of very human durability have been consistent from his first comic in 1987, when he was only a mach level speedster even until now that he has attained the status of 'poster boy for faster than light feats'.

The source of Flash's speed is the speed force, as well as all of the little tricks it affords him, including his vibratory powers, speed lending, speed steal, speed force dump, etc...however, like any energy source, that power can be siphoned away. This has happened to Wally on a few occasions. Additionally, at least one of Wally's adversaries generates a "negative speed force" (Professor Zoom I presume?). Some characters can mimic this power.

As a general rule, Wally should win a lot of battles under the above indicated circumstances. However, there are some that would consistently make short work of Wally under the same circumstances.

*EDIT: and one thing...around here, this is a very...DC oriented forum, just so you know. You'll get to know who they are. They tend to run around in packs. At any rate, I would encourage you to do your own research and arrive at your own conclusions. Amazon has entire runs of certain comic characters...I recently finished my fifth one (well, actually four, since one run I'd previously read...but decided to re-read...) You may have to do some searching, but they are out there.

Other than that, welcome to the Vine!

So yea, YOU are the one who said he had human durability -- I was the one who corrected you by saying Wally has time and time again shown to have massively superhuman durability because he has survived hits from Superman+ level beings like Prime and Amazo (and some other big brutes the JL faces on any given issue, I couldn't possibly name them all). Wally can't stand still and take a punch, toe to toe, with Doomsday the same way Superman can, but he can sure as hell survive it like he's survived every hit he's ever taken in 20 years of being the main Flash.

Unless you want to try to pretend saying "VERY" human durability meant superhuman. I doubt it, though.

edit: I also like how you cut all of my statements into pieces and ignore large swathes of text to suit your point. This is abhorrent and I really shouldn't need to stand my case anymore. No one on this forum has ever, ever told me something I didn't know about Wally freaking West -- atleast nothing from his actual title. So no, I won't take my barbs back and I stand by what I say, despite the fact that I'm willing to learn about other heroes I've read less of.

#167 Edited by Malevolent1 (1072 posts) - - Show Bio

@dredeuced: Are you even listening to yourself?

What I meant is that Wally's durability is closer to human then the those with upper levels of durability. If I wanted to lie, I would not have said the speed force grants him a measure of superhuman durability.

???

Dredeuced, you're angry because it's clear Wally has less than upper tier durability. There are too many showing of Wally getting hurt, bleeding, etc...to write it ALL off as PIS? If you can't debate civilly, maybe you shouldn't debate at all. Really, the way to approach this would've been to say: "Hey, Malevolent, over here you said this, when here you clearly said that: what are you really trying to say...", as opposed to just calling folks liars.

Flash has limited durability afforded him by the speed force. Period. The scans all show that.

EDIT: And you are not willing to learn about other characters. You ARE willing to believe what other folks tell you on the Vine about other characters when it is too your liking. You seem to be taking this rather personally.

#168 Edited by Dredeuced (5353 posts) - - Show Bio

@dredeuced: Are you even listening to yourself?

What I meant is that Wally's durability is closer to human then the those with upper levels of durability. If I wanted to lie, I would not have said the speed force grants him a measure of superhuman durability.

???

Dredeuced, you're angry because it's clear Wally has less than upper tier durability. There are too many showing of Wally getting hurt, bleeding, etc...to write it ALL off as PIS? If you can't debate civilly, maybe you shouldn't debate at all. Really, the way to approach this would've been to say: "Hey, Malevolent, over here you said this, when here you clearly said that: what are you really trying to say...", as opposed to just calling folks liars.

Flash has limited durability afforded him by the speed force. Period. The scans all show that.

That's backtracking if I've ever seen it. You straight up lied to me when your original point was clearly wrong and I happened to, you know, remember you saying Wally has very human durability. His durability isn't "closer" to human than it is to the other leaguers or he wouldn't survive getting hit by the same stuff that KOs Superman, J'onn or Wonder Woman. It's an asinine statement based in wishful thinking. If you wanted to say his durability is high, but not as high as Superman's, we wouldn't be in this argument -- i'd have agreed. You said he was Human durability, I called you out on it, then you proceeded to post a bunch of scans of him surviving stuff humans wouldn't survive.

I have been very civil. I took every single scan you posted and pointed out the context and why none of them were, you know, low durability showings. Because you didn't even show him getting KO'd once despite taking all these hits. Only when you lied did I call you out for it because it was pretty blatant.

Also, I love the term "limited durability" -- doesn't everyone except omnipotents have limited durability? Flash's durability is a little lower than the other Leaguer Powerhouses, and he makes up for it by healing from any significant injury at super speeds. He still takes the exact same hits everyone of them takes and, more often than not, gets up from it. The dude literally took hundreds of blows from a super speed, strong as Superman Amazo and hung on long enough to speed steal it and rush back to his friends. His Durability is much closer to Superman's than it is to your average joe.

#170 Posted by SC (12709 posts) - - Show Bio

Flash is what happens when people try to introduce objectivity and reason into fictional settings with fictional characters without having a sound understanding of objectivity, reason and fiction. You can be steady on all three and depending on your criteria paint a positive or negative of the character, and naturally its something not exclusive to Flash. A few characters the same innit, some smarmy writer doesn't know that absolute zero isn't actually just really really cold and so throwing the term around like its mince pie. Then again most writers aren't expecting to have a barney on the internet using a bunch of scans over a fictional character either.

Moderator
#171 Edited by Dredeuced (5353 posts) - - Show Bio

@malevolent1: You lied when you stated this:

No one said is wasn't superhuman...but clearly, the speed force offers limited durability.

Just because you later admitted that, oh, the Speed Force DOES grant durability based on every single scan you could ever find of Wally doesn't mean you weren't the original person to say he had human durability. That's the statement that capped off this entire durability argument. If your original statement had been "The speed force grants him durability" then I wouldn't have had to disagree with you.

You lied, probably because you forgot your original post in all the scan dumping and point by point arguing. I was never here to say Wally was outright more durable than Superman, just to correct your false statement of "human durability" that you later turned into "Speed force enhanced durability" -- the latter of which is true, even if you made some incorrect remarks on canon along the way.

#172 Posted by lilben42 (2498 posts) - - Show Bio

He can't.

#173 Posted by trebean (635 posts) - - Show Bio
#174 Posted by lilben42 (2498 posts) - - Show Bio
#175 Posted by trebean (635 posts) - - Show Bio

@lilben42 said:

@trebean: beat everyone.

Well that's obvious, by everyone that'll include omnipotents, immortals, and gods.

But yes he can beat quite an amount, he can probably solo a few universes in bloodlust.

#176 Edited by Lvenger (18394 posts) - - Show Bio

@dredeuced: You won't get anywhere with Malevolent111 so just ignore him. I've had my share of problems with him in the past as have other users on here. He'll get on your nerves with his incorrect reasoning and out of context spamming of feats.

#177 Posted by Malevolent1 (1072 posts) - - Show Bio

@malevolent1: You lied when you stated this:

No one said is wasn't superhuman...but clearly, the speed force offers limited durability.

Just because you later admitted that, oh, the Speed Force DOES grant durability based on every single scan you could ever find of Wally doesn't mean you weren't the original person to say he had human durability. That's the statement that capped off this entire durability argument. If your original statement had been "The speed force grants him durability" then I wouldn't have had to disagree with you.

You lied, probably because you forgot your original post in all the scan dumping and point by point arguing. I was never here to say Wally was outright more durable than Superman, just to correct your false statement of "human durability" that you later turned into "Speed force enhanced durability" -- the latter of which is true, even if you made some incorrect remarks on canon along the way.

1) I showed conclusive evidence that the speed force grants the Flash limited durability.

2) You can't explain it away. You're pissed.

3) So you refer to a post I made earlier, where I callously referred to Wally's durability as "human"

4) During our discussion, I say the speed force grants limited durability but me referring to his durability as very human is a bona fide contradiction?

If I was trying to lie, wouldn't it make more sense that I FIRST made the comment that he had some durability resulting from the speed force...THEN during my conversation with you try to assert that he had little to none?

#178 Edited by Dredeuced (5353 posts) - - Show Bio

@malevolent1: I didn't say you were trying to make sense, I didn't even say you intentionally lied, just that you did and it was obvious. If you had never "callously" said Wally had human durability then there wouldn't be this debate. That's the sticking point -- you made an incorrect statement, I told you it wasn't true, and then you go on to prove me right by posting a lot of scans of Wally having superhuman durability -- though, admittedly, downplaying it to the best of your ability.

Call me mad, you're the one spamming memes to try to belittle me.

#179 Posted by Saren (25313 posts) - - Show Bio

@malevolent1: I didn't say you were trying to make sense, I didn't even say you intentionally lied, just that you did and it was obvious. If you had never "callously" said Wally had human durability then there wouldn't be this debate. That's the sticking point -- you made an incorrect statement, I told you it wasn't true, and then you go on to prove me right by posting a lot of scans of Wally having superhuman durability -- though, admittedly, downplaying it to the best of your ability.

Call me mad, you're the one spamming memes to try to belittle me.

Kudos for putting up with Mal for this long, but it's pretty much his schtick. He'll post a bunch of out of context scans from issues he's never read, and then when he's corrected on them he'll backtrack and claim you've got him all wrong, then he'll change tack and try something else, and after he's corrected on that he'll spam a bunch of irrelevant images and try to make it seem like you're being foolish and he's the paragon of rationality and not floundering for a semblance of a cogent argument.

Just wait until he starts talking about how his friends down at the comic book store think your argument is ridiculous. That's when you'll know for sure he's gone off the deep end.....again.

Moderator
#180 Posted by Malevolent1 (1072 posts) - - Show Bio

@lvenger said:

@dredeuced: You won't get anywhere with Malevolent111 so just ignore him. I've had my share of problems with him in the past as have other users on here. He'll get on your nerves with his incorrect reasoning and out of context spamming of feats.

You have never had problems with me, save for you and Bane...trolling (there's a shocker)...and posting screen shots of my conversation with Kurt Busiek, from another Comic web site (that was real classy) as if there was some sort of "ownage" by Busiek of me. The problem is you don't like my opinions concerning certain characters. I really don't care. But you really shouldn't paint me as problematic when the problem rests with the pack of trolls that consistently badger (heck, let's just call it what it is...bully) other members when they don't agree with that same little pack.

I understand this is a DC friendly forum. That's cool. But I'm not gonna just weakly go along with everyone else when I clearly see otherwise when it comes to certain characters.

But really, don't paint me as the problem when the problem exists elsewhere.

#181 Posted by laflux (14251 posts) - - Show Bio

@malevolent1: I would tell you to cut your losses but I'm enjoying this. Continue

#182 Edited by Malevolent1 (1072 posts) - - Show Bio

@dredeuced said:

@malevolent1: I didn't say you were trying to make sense, I didn't even say you intentionally lied, just that you did and it was obvious. If you had never "callously" said Wally had human durability then there wouldn't be this debate. That's the sticking point -- you made an incorrect statement, I told you it wasn't true, and then you go on to prove me right by posting a lot of scans of Wally having superhuman durability -- though, admittedly, downplaying it to the best of your ability.

Call me mad, you're the one spamming memes to try to belittle me.

Kudos for putting up with Mal for this long, but it's pretty much his schtick. He'll post a bunch of out of context scans from issues he's never read, and then when he's corrected on them he'll backtrack and claim you've got him all wrong, then he'll change tack and try something else, and after he's corrected on that he'll spam a bunch of irrelevant images and try to make it seem like you're being foolish and he's the paragon of rationality and not floundering for a semblance of a cogent argument.

Just wait until he starts talking about how his friends down at the comic book store think your argument is ridiculous. That's when you'll know for sure he's gone off the deep end.....again.

You do realize, hopefully, that I have read every issue of Wally's comics...the whole 19 year continuity right?

And this comment from the guy asserted that all of Silver Surfer's speed feats are the result of hyper space?

*chuckles*

Tell me Bane, do you still insist that writer's didn't start using hyperspace until the mid 90's and onward with regard to the Silver Surfer?

You are absolutely my favorite internet troll. Oh the laughs...

#183 Posted by Malevolent1 (1072 posts) - - Show Bio

@laflux said:

@malevolent1: I would tell you to cut your losses but I'm enjoying this. Continue

And I'd tell you to get a better user name and avatar, but, eh...I've always been known for my forgiving nature.

#184 Posted by JediXMan (29628 posts) - - Show Bio

@malevolent1:

...

You're calling out Bane?

You're about to get stomped, man. I'm just gonna leave and watch from a distance.

#185 Edited by colonyofcells (2038 posts) - - Show Bio

Flash can't beat everyone but maybe he is fast enough to make all 7 billion people on the planet become naked. It would be fun to see a naked Hulk.

#186 Edited by JediXMan (29628 posts) - - Show Bio

Flash can't beat everyone but maybe he is fast enough to make all 7 billion people on the planet become naked. It would be fun to see a naked Hulk.

Most. He can beat most. Almost all Earth heroes / villains, at any rate.

#187 Edited by Saren (25313 posts) - - Show Bio

@malevolent1 said:

@citizenbane said:

@dredeuced said:

@malevolent1: I didn't say you were trying to make sense, I didn't even say you intentionally lied, just that you did and it was obvious. If you had never "callously" said Wally had human durability then there wouldn't be this debate. That's the sticking point -- you made an incorrect statement, I told you it wasn't true, and then you go on to prove me right by posting a lot of scans of Wally having superhuman durability -- though, admittedly, downplaying it to the best of your ability.

Call me mad, you're the one spamming memes to try to belittle me.

Kudos for putting up with Mal for this long, but it's pretty much his schtick. He'll post a bunch of out of context scans from issues he's never read, and then when he's corrected on them he'll backtrack and claim you've got him all wrong, then he'll change tack and try something else, and after he's corrected on that he'll spam a bunch of irrelevant images and try to make it seem like you're being foolish and he's the paragon of rationality and not floundering for a semblance of a cogent argument.

Just wait until he starts talking about how his friends down at the comic book store think your argument is ridiculous. That's when you'll know for sure he's gone off the deep end.....again.

You do realize, hopefully, that I have read every issue of Wally's comics...the whole 19 year continuity right?

And this comment from the guy asserted that all of Silver Surfer's speed feats are the result of hyper space?

*chuckles*

Tell me Bane, do you still insist that writer's didn't start using hyperspace until the mid 90's and onward with regard to the Silver Surfer?

You are absolutely my favorite internet troll. Oh the laughs...

Sure. Just like you "read" the entire 146 issue run of Silver Surfer, until you couldn't even get your issues and facts straight and I had to keep telling you what was what, following which you tried to act like I was wrong when your arguments were absolutely ludicrous (months later, I'm still laughing about you asking a question and needing to be told the answer a half dozen times over several days before it finally sunk in that I'd already answered), and I ceased explaining and moved to humiliating you for your ignorance.

I never said all of Surfer's speed feats were the result of hyperspace. This is just you doing what you do best: misinterpreting someone else's argument because you're simply not capable of addressing their actual argument. I say X, you insist I said Y and yell about how Y is wrong and everyone who believes in Y is wrong. It's a hopelessly incompetent thing to do. Keep at it.

Come on, Mal. We've done this dance before. It's never ended well for you. Why even try? You have a long record of being wrong and then going batsh!t when your wrongness is pointed out to you. I'm all for rehashing those glorious moments, but surely you can't be that much of a glutton for punishment?

Moderator
#188 Posted by deaditegonzo (3684 posts) - - Show Bio

Flash vs the top heavy hitters in DC (minus Green Lantern whose powers greatest weakness is that it is based on an organic mind), could go a lot of different ways depending on the scenario.

An all out, blood lusted, pre-52 Barry or Wally could beat almost anyone in a scenario that isnt immediately unfavourable for them. To give an example, say its Superman, and he is also bloodlusted, and he starts in the air (Wally is still on the ground), whats to stop him from just nuking the Earth from Orbit or throwing another planet into Earth. Sure, Wally/ Barry have ways to get to Supes even in the air, but like Antaeus, Speedsters are best on the ground. Or, what if the Flash has prep, and so does his enemy, say Batman (just as a hypothetical), his Tower of Babel plan actually made a lot of sense and was based on the Flash's typical response to certain threats, but lets say this confrontation takes place after Tower of Babel so Flash is ready for that one, what if Batman pulled a "Radion Bullet" and used a gun that shot through time (a la Zoom), and just killed the Flash before the battle took place. Etc, etc, scenario really matters in this instance.

Also, Flash is one of those characters who the PIS discussion is really difficult. He is universally shown to be significantly less OP in crossover stories than he is in his solo books. And just because one feat happens in a book called Justice League, and one happens in a book called Flash, you cant easily say which version is more "correct".

I will say, the New 52 version of Flash is quite downgraded vs his pre52 incarnation. Somebody tried to downplay that instance of Supes flicking Flash in the Justice League book (I didnt bother quoting it or replying on it, as it's probably largely interpretation), but I read that as, "Yes Flash is faster, but all of Supes' abilities combined make him superior to Flash. Not to mention, Flash is no longer so much faster than Supes that he cannot even get a hit in." Supergirl also holds out really well against Flash, granted she was trying her hardest and Flash was not. Not to mention, right now I think Superman has the best measurable speed feat of the New 52 (I could be forgetting one though; also I havent read every book from every series in the New 52).

Anyway, I think in an actual comic confrontation, Superman would win, as would Wonder Woman, Captain Marvel, or Martian Manhunter.

Online
#189 Posted by dondave (34567 posts) - - Show Bio

@jedixman said:

@malevolent1:

...

You're calling out Bane?

You're about to get stomped, man. I'm just gonna leave and watch from a distance.

LOL

Online
#190 Posted by dondave (34567 posts) - - Show Bio

Flash vs the top heavy hitters in DC (minus Green Lantern whose powers greatest weakness is that it is based on an organic mind), could go a lot of different ways depending on the scenario.

An all out, blood lusted, pre-52 Barry or Wally could beat almost anyone in a scenario that isnt immediately unfavourable for them. To give an example, say its Superman, and he is also bloodlusted, and he starts in the air (Wally is still on the ground), whats to stop him from just nuking the Earth from Orbit or throwing another planet into Earth. Sure, Wally/ Barry have ways to get to Supes even in the air, but like Antaeus, Speedsters are best on the ground. Or, what if the Flash has prep, and so does his enemy, say Batman (just as a hypothetical), his Tower of Babel plan actually made a lot of sense and was based on the Flash's typical response to certain threats, but lets say this confrontation takes place after Tower of Babel so Flash is ready for that one, what if Batman pulled a "Radion Bullet" and used a gun that shot through time (a la Zoom), and just killed the Flash before the battle took place. Etc, etc, scenario really matters in this instance.

Also, Flash is one of those characters who the PIS discussion is really difficult. He is universally shown to be significantly less OP in crossover stories than he is in his solo books. And just because one feat happens in a book called Justice League, and one happens in a book called Flash, you cant easily say which version is more "correct".

I will say, the New 52 version of Flash is quite downgraded vs his pre52 incarnation. Somebody tried to downplay that instance of Supes flicking Flash in the Justice League book (I didnt bother quoting it or replying on it, as it's probably largely interpretation), but I read that as, "Yes Flash is faster, but all of Supes' abilities combined make him superior to Flash. Not to mention, Flash is no longer so much faster than Supes that he cannot even get a hit in." Supergirl also holds out really well against Flash, granted she was trying her hardest and Flash was not. Not to mention, right now I think Superman has the best

measurable

speed feat of the New 52 (I could be forgetting one though; also I havent read every book from every series in the New 52).

Anyway, I think in an actual comic confrontation, Superman would win, as would Wonder Woman, Captain Marvel, or Martian Manhunter.

Are you talking about Pre-52 or New 52?

Online
#191 Posted by deaditegonzo (3684 posts) - - Show Bio

@dondave: So far as who would win against Flash in an actual comic book, id say either incarnation (Pre52 or New52). I think a lot of writers and artists, when working on a character they really love (when they are in charge creatively, have a tendency to make said character do the most awesome things they can imagine that character doing, sort of like fanfic, but then grounding those characters when they are in the presence of other characters, or exposed to the "laws" of the Universe at large.

This is just my take, and I am 100% certain somebody could effectively argue something different, I just wouldnt be likely to agree.

Online
#192 Posted by Malevolent1 (1072 posts) - - Show Bio

@dondave said:

@jedixman said:

@malevolent1:

...

You're calling out Bane?

You're about to get stomped, man. I'm just gonna leave and watch from a distance.

LOL

Bane and I have chatted on numerous occasions. Bane and I have talked Wally vs Silver Surfer in the past and Bane was wrong on a number of points. And I already called Bane out some time ago. I invited him to meet me on another forum where, no offense to these forums, feats are more rigorously scrutinized. Additionally, Bane is a major troll. Everyone (who is not a Flash fan, or otherwise a fan of DC comics, knows this...)...yet moderators consistently look the other way. He's been doing it for a long time. Talking to that dude is an enormous waste of time. If he wants to chat Wally vs Norrin, my earlier challenge stands (and for sake of disclosure...those forums do NOT tolerate board raids...so to any interested parties...don't do it...)

He never responded. The last chat Bane and I had (Wally and Surfer), he asserted hyperspace was not used until the mid 90's by writers to explain away "the Gauntlet grab" (written in 91), when hyperspace was clearly used with reference to the Silver Surfer since his first appearance in 1966. Englehart used it early on in the second run as well in 1987. Most associate the first use of hyperspace in relation to the Surfer with Byrne's one shot from 1982. That would be incorrect. Clearly, Stan Lee had it in mind when he wrote FF 48 in '66.

The last chat resulted in an enormous spam of useless information about the Silver Surfer in an attempt to give the appearance that he knows all things Surfer.

My earlier challenge is a standing one: meet me at CBR and let's debate on the most prestigious arena in the world to debate comic feats (not a slight to Comic Vine...the site is outstanding and easily one of the greatest comic sites on the internet, particularly considering they are relative newcomers to the game...). See how long he lasts there. He's carved out a nice little world for himself over here and that's fine. More power to him. My message to Bane: quit trolling other folks on these forums that disagree with you. You're behavior is absolutely contemptible. And all you other folks around here, same for you. Grow up.

Otherwise, tell Bane to quit bugging me. The trolling is quite useless at this point.

And again, they frown heavily on board raids. Just an FYI.

I'm waiting Bane.

#193 Posted by Pfcoolio14 (1139 posts) - - Show Bio
#194 Posted by comicace3 (3469 posts) - - Show Bio

I s everybody forgetting he can't beat zoom...

#195 Posted by JediXMan (29628 posts) - - Show Bio

Otherwise, tell Bane to quit bugging me. The trolling is quite useless at this point.

And again, they frown heavily on board raids. Just an FYI.

I'm waiting Bane.

I'm more likely to take the word of a highly respected debater than... well, you.

"They?" Who is "they?" And what board raid are you referring to?

#196 Posted by Malevolent1 (1072 posts) - - Show Bio

@jedixman said:

@malevolent1 said:

Otherwise, tell Bane to quit bugging me. The trolling is quite useless at this point.

And again, they frown heavily on board raids. Just an FYI.

I'm waiting Bane.

I'm more likely to take the word of a highly respected debater than... well, you.

"They?" Who is "they?" And what board raid are you referring to?

"They": the moderators at CBR. Feel free to re-read my post above. And you're welcome to your opinion about me. But my earlier points stands. The sad thing about it, is the battle forum rules talk about this being a place where people who are interested in the subject (A vs Z) can come and learn. The whole idea is to learn. Instead, what we have is a pack of fans running around, led by Bane no less, treating people with contempt, insulting, spamming out of context scans...pretty sad.

Bane is a troll. Period. And, yes...moderators look the other way when he trolls. If it wasn't for Bane, this would be a much better place to debate.

Really don't know what control Bane seems to be exercising over all you folks, but whatevs.

And what do you know about me? I mean, seriously? Never had a contemptible word for you and you're insulting me? With all due respect, you know nothing about me.

#197 Posted by JediXMan (29628 posts) - - Show Bio

@malevolent1:

I don't know anything about you. However, I do know about Bane, and I know him to be an extremely knowledgeable and thorough debater. So the fact that you call him a troll severely damages my opinion of you.

Bane has no control over me. I was here before he joined. I simply give respect where I feel respect is due. The mods don't look the other way when it comes to trolls; actual trolls usually get banned. Bane is not a troll. He's earn a place here.

And, I'm sorry, but using CBR as a point of reference is laughable. That place is terrible; I was a member and I greatly disliked the people there.

#198 Posted by Saren (25313 posts) - - Show Bio

@dondave said:

@jedixman said:

@malevolent1:

...

You're calling out Bane?

You're about to get stomped, man. I'm just gonna leave and watch from a distance.

LOL

Bane and I have chatted on numerous occasions. Bane and I have talked Wally vs Silver Surfer in the past and Bane was wrong on a number of points. And I already called Bane out some time ago. I invited him to meet me on another forum where, no offense to these forums, feats are more rigorously scrutinized. Additionally, Bane is a major troll. Everyone (who is not a Flash fan, or otherwise a fan of DC comics, knows this...)...yet moderators consistently look the other way. He's been doing it for a long time. Talking to that dude is an enormous waste of time. If he wants to chat Wally vs Norrin, my earlier challenge stands (and for sake of disclosure...those forums do NOT tolerate board raids...so to any interested parties...don't do it...)

He never responded. The last chat Bane and I had (Wally and Surfer), he asserted hyperspace was not used until the mid 90's by writers to explain away "the Gauntlet grab" (written in 91), when hyperspace was clearly used with reference to the Silver Surfer since his first appearance in 1966. Englehart used it early on in the second run as well in 1987. Most associate the first use of hyperspace in relation to the Surfer with Byrne's one shot from 1982. That would be incorrect. Clearly, Stan Lee had it in mind when he wrote FF 48 in '66.

The last chat resulted in an enormous spam of useless information about the Silver Surfer in an attempt to give the appearance that he knows all things Surfer.

My earlier challenge is a standing one: meet me at CBR and let's debate on the most prestigious arena in the world to debate comic feats (not a slight to Comic Vine...the site is outstanding and easily one of the greatest comic sites on the internet, particularly considering they are relative newcomers to the game...). See how long he lasts there. He's carved out a nice little world for himself over here and that's fine. More power to him. My message to Bane: quit trolling other folks on these forums that disagree with you. You're behavior is absolutely contemptible. And all you other folks around here, same for you. Grow up.

Otherwise, tell Bane to quit bugging me. The trolling is quite useless at this point.

And again, they frown heavily on board raids. Just an FYI.

I'm waiting Bane.

I wasn't wrong. Far from it. There was almost no inherent value to anything you said. You had problems with that reality. And yes, I know a lot more about the Surfer than you ever have.

"Never responded"? Pretty sure I did respond. I laughed at you and asked why you thought I'd be interested in some figurative dick measuring contest. You never responded.

Really not sure what this fascination with CBR is. It's not like your complete lack of any kind of rationality or basic knowledge of the character you're trying to debate for is going to change with a change of scenery.

Pretty sure you're the one trolling people who disagree with you, Mal. We both remember the PM's with half-arsed insults you sent me when you were upset about your ignorance being called out in public, aren't we? The ones that Static warned you about? The warnings that you've been bitter about ever since?

"Moderators consistently look the other way". What a joke. The only reason you weren't banned ages ago was because Static had patience and was willing to give you a second chance.....and then a third chance.

Moderator
#199 Posted by Malevolent1 (1072 posts) - - Show Bio

@jedixman said:

@malevolent1:

I don't know anything about you. However, I do know about Bane, and I know him to be an extremely knowledgeable and thorough debater. So the fact that you call him a troll severely damages my opinion of you.

Bane has no control over me. I was here before he joined. I simply give respect where I feel respect is due. The mods don't look the other way when it comes to trolls; actual trolls usually get banned. Bane is not a troll. He's earn a place here.

And, I'm sorry, but using CBR as a point of reference is laughable. That place is terrible; I was a member and I greatly disliked the people there.

I suppose if your opinion of me really mattered, I'd be crushed.

For some strange reason, you butted into this conversation, why? That what we got going on here? Or is Bane capable of handling himself without you around? The fact that you have been here longer than him tells me you've seen him action. And you should know better than to call him respectable, because he's not. And my opinion remains the same: he's a troll. His style of debate is to lead, if he gets backed into a corner, with insults, spam scans, some relevant, some not and hope that the truth gets buried somewhere in the melee. Y'see, Bane is not interested in the truth about a character...he just wants to win at all costs, regardless of the truth.

I don't care whether Bane exercises control over you or not: what concerns me is that he continues to get away with his outrageous behavior...and the mods ignore it. You can get on your soap box and preach about trolls being where they should be all day long: there is one loose in comic vine and his name is Bane. And curious: what does one have to do to earn their place here? If it's to troll, well...yeah, he's earned it in spades.

And CBR is a great place to debate feats. It's not about liking people so much as it's about arriving at a measure of truth about each character's abilities first. And if you happen to get along with the folks there, beautiful. But, hey if you're looking to just be buddies with folks and turn the other way when your buddies post out of context scans and spam baloney, more power to you.

#200 Edited by Saren (25313 posts) - - Show Bio

I don't care whether Bane exercises control over you or not: what concerns me is that he continues to get away with his outrageous behavior...and the mods ignore it. You can get on your soap box and preach about trolls being where they should be all day long: there is one loose in comic vine and his name is Bane. And curious: what does one have to do to earn their place here? If it's to troll, well...yeah, he's earned it in spades.

Moderator