#101 Edited by TifaLockhart (13827 posts) - - Show Bio

Speed kills.

#102 Posted by Lone_Wolf_and_Cub (4003 posts) - - Show Bio

@The_Last_Son_of_Czarnia true speed does kill, probably why Wally didn't survive the New 52 relaunch. ;)

#103 Edited by TifaLockhart (13827 posts) - - Show Bio

New 52 is dead to me. Except for Batman, which is the only good book.

#104 Posted by Dredeuced (4395 posts) - - Show Bio

@The_Last_Son_of_Czarnia true speed does kill, probably why Wally didn't survive the New 52 relaunch. ;)

Curse you, Didio and Johns!

#105 Edited by tasir (303 posts) - - Show Bio

the same can be asked about superman and batman people find a way to let them win

#106 Edited by Pfcoolio14 (973 posts) - - Show Bio

@dredeuced:

How are my arguments examples of trolling. I found instances of the Flash failing to use his power to his advantage and thus being outsmarted by the opponent. It's happened with Deathstroke, it's happened with Captain Cold, and it's happened with Gorilla Grodd. I'm not trying to be spiteful. I provided my scans. Actual scans in which Flash wasn't able to handle some of DC's powerhouses. I understand you say they were out of context or PIS but that doesn't diminish the fact that they were published. The only thing I can give to you is the elseworlds story and the one where Flash said he intentionally let Superman catch up. Aside from that I believe everything else is valid.

And when I said I honestly meant that Flash couldn't beat Superman, I was telling you you had no right to call me a troll, Charlie Jade, and that I'm typing from a small dark place. I said nothing to you. I could have easily called you a bunch of names but I'm not an idiot and I can remain level headed. I'm not being spiteful. It's a question. You're just being a Jerk about it. And when in the world did I say Wally didn't deserve the respect he gets.

You know what, this just got ridiculous. I put things into perspective and I realized I'm getting personal over a comic book character. I got practice tomorrow. You win.

#107 Edited by Dredeuced (4395 posts) - - Show Bio

@pfcoolio14 said:

@dredeuced:

How are my arguments examples of trolling. I found instances of the Flash failing to use his power to his advantage and thus being outsmarted by the opponent. It's happened with Deathstroke, it's happened with Captain Cold, and it's happened with Gorilla Grodd. I'm not trying to be spiteful. I provided my scans. Actual scans in which Flash wasn't able to handle some of DC's powerhouses. I understand you say they were out of context or PIS but that doesn't diminish the fact that they were published. The only thing I can give to you is the elseworlds story and the one where Flash said he intentionally let Superman catch up. Aside from that I believe everything else is valid.

And when I said I honestly meant that Flash couldn't beat Superman, I was telling you you had no right to call me a troll, Charlie Jade, and that I'm typing from a small dark place. I said nothing to you. I could have easily called you a bunch of names but I'm not an idiot and I can remain level headed. I'm not being spiteful. It's a question. You're just being a Jerk about it. And when in the world did I say Wally didn't deserve the respect he gets.

You know what, this just got ridiculous. I put things into perspective and I realized I'm getting personal over a comic book character. I got practice tomorrow. You win.

edit -- you know what, I'll leave it at this. I'm not here to try to make you feel bad, but you need to understand that dropping a bunch of out of context scans from comics you don't even know about is not an argument. You also need to know that just because Wally has some weak villains does not make him a weak character -- just like how Superman isn't a weak character for dealing with Toy Man. That's all there is to say.

#109 Edited by Malevolent1 (1072 posts) - - Show Bio

@pfcoolio14:

@pfcoolio14 said:

I know this isn't an actual battle but I guess it relates to the battle forum.

I just don't understand how the Flash beats everyone on these forums. He's incapable of doing so in the comics or on the TV shows.

He has problems with enemies like Deathstroke or Gorilla Grodd. So why is it that speedblitz makes him near invulnerable against opponents like Superman or Wonderwoman that can fly and have other powers to harm him and he hasn't been shown to be able to beat in the comics.

Wouldn't the speedblitz be hard on him. I mean if he kept punching superman, superman's reaction time isn't that far behind flash. So he could grab the dude and throw him in the air where he has no power. Or more preferably, the sun.

Doesn't that mean he should get higher level enemies like Doomsday or Ares?

A valid question.

Despite what many say on these forums say, the Flash is not the unbeatable character he's painted to be. A lot of his fans, who frequent these very forums, would have you believe he is. But he's not.

Now, having said that, ALL battles should be considered under these conditions, at all times:

1) each character bloodlusted/without morals...giving you their "A" game.

2) no PIS, atypical comic baloney (an example is given in the rules about a Superman comic lasting longer than two pages against some of his more mortal adversaries.

3) fight takes place on uninhabited planet approximately earth's gravity and atmosphere.

Too often, what the character "has done in the comic" is taken into consideration. It should not be. Why? Because, the PIS circumstances many of the stories are written under easily bleeds into a battle forums discussion. It should have absolutely NO PLACE on a battles forums.

Nevertheless, if Wally is considered under the circumstances indicated above, he will win a good portion of battle forum fights. Why? One word: speed. However, with the Flash character, his durability should always be part of the discussion. I understand that as a general rule, character's low showings should be omitted as "mulligans", or poor writing, take your pick...but Flash's showing of very human durability have been consistent from his first comic in 1987, when he was only a mach level speedster even until now that he has attained the status of 'poster boy for faster than light feats'.

The source of Flash's speed is the speed force, as well as all of the little tricks it affords him, including his vibratory powers, speed lending, speed steal, speed force dump, etc...however, like any energy source, that power can be siphoned away. This has happened to Wally on a few occasions. Additionally, at least one of Wally's adversaries generates a "negative speed force" (Professor Zoom I presume?). Some characters can mimic this power.

As a general rule, Wally should win a lot of battles under the above indicated circumstances. However, there are some that would consistently make short work of Wally under the same circumstances.

*EDIT: and one thing...around here, this is a very...DC oriented forum, just so you know. You'll get to know who they are. They tend to run around in packs. At any rate, I would encourage you to do your own research and arrive at your own conclusions. Amazon has entire runs of certain comic characters...I recently finished my fifth one (well, actually four, since one run I'd previously read...but decided to re-read...) You may have to do some searching, but they are out there.

Other than that, welcome to the Vine!

#110 Posted by Ancient_0f_Days (10235 posts) - - Show Bio

................................... this thread gave me cancer, and then deduced, citizen bane, and calebhara and a few others cured it.

@pfcoolio14: don't give me cancer, dude.

#111 Edited by Dredeuced (4395 posts) - - Show Bio

@malevolent1: No version of the Flash, from Jay to Bart, has ever had human durability. They're all quite massively superhuman in tanking blows. I can show you Wally getting clocked by Mongul, Amazo, Wonder Woman, Zoom, tons of heavy hitters, and he more often than not gets up rather quickly.

There are the rare showings (Bart getting kneecapped by Deathstroke), but they're quite good at getting hit by powerhouses and getting back up.

#112 Edited by Omnicrono (973 posts) - - Show Bio

The reason Wally is so powerful in the battle forums is because battles aren't written by typical comic writers who come up with scenarios that limit Flash (such as him losing his memory and not remembering his powers) or just plain forget to use his powers intelligently for story purposes. Battles tend to remove writer stupidity or plot stupidity. When you compare powersets, Wally is basically a herald+ level character. Few characters in comics frequently do things in picoseconds, which means in every battle Wally always gets the first hit or wins the quick draw. Given that he has powerhouse level striking strength, he quite frequently wins battles by just infinite mass punching them. Speedblitz is not "hard" on him -- his go to method for dealing with people is super fast punching, and he only rarely hurts himself thanks to the speed force (some writers forget the speed force protects him and write it as him hurting himself when he punches at high speeds -- inconsistency in comics at its finest).

Beyond his amazing speed and high striking strength, he's also got the utterly broken Speed Steal. Being able to increase his own speed while turning his opponent's to a crawl is hilariously overpowered, and it's one of his more frequently used powers. Fact is, unless you can beat him before he uses it or are immune, it's basically impossible to beat Wally if he can speed steal you.

For opponents who are too durable for his punches and unable to be speed stolen for some reason, his final tactic is speed force dumping them. He can either drop them in an alternate reality, like he did Superboy Prime, or dump them off in the future like he did Professor Zoom. He can also, technically, dump them off at the end of time like he did the Black Flash, which would cease their existence on a fundamental level.

Also he's, albeit infrequently, shown the ability to fly, both in air and in space.

Also no, he does not need to be moving constantly to IMP. He did it against Professor Zoom while standing still, and when he did it to Zum he plainly stated he could do thousands of them, but only needed to do one. IMPs are just normal punches to Wally when he's going super fast -- they're white dwarf stars to everyone else.

And this is the reason Wally was erased from the New52. He was insanely over-powered.

When they do eventually bring him back, his powers will have received a major downgrade, I am sure.

#113 Edited by trebean (608 posts) - - Show Bio

@dredeuced said:

The reason Wally is so powerful in the battle forums is because battles aren't written by typical comic writers who come up with scenarios that limit Flash (such as him losing his memory and not remembering his powers) or just plain forget to use his powers intelligently for story purposes. Battles tend to remove writer stupidity or plot stupidity. When you compare powersets, Wally is basically a herald+ level character. Few characters in comics frequently do things in picoseconds, which means in every battle Wally always gets the first hit or wins the quick draw. Given that he has powerhouse level striking strength, he quite frequently wins battles by just infinite mass punching them. Speedblitz is not "hard" on him -- his go to method for dealing with people is super fast punching, and he only rarely hurts himself thanks to the speed force (some writers forget the speed force protects him and write it as him hurting himself when he punches at high speeds -- inconsistency in comics at its finest).

Beyond his amazing speed and high striking strength, he's also got the utterly broken Speed Steal. Being able to increase his own speed while turning his opponent's to a crawl is hilariously overpowered, and it's one of his more frequently used powers. Fact is, unless you can beat him before he uses it or are immune, it's basically impossible to beat Wally if he can speed steal you.

For opponents who are too durable for his punches and unable to be speed stolen for some reason, his final tactic is speed force dumping them. He can either drop them in an alternate reality, like he did Superboy Prime, or dump them off in the future like he did Professor Zoom. He can also, technically, dump them off at the end of time like he did the Black Flash, which would cease their existence on a fundamental level.

Also he's, albeit infrequently, shown the ability to fly, both in air and in space.

Also no, he does not need to be moving constantly to IMP. He did it against Professor Zoom while standing still, and when he did it to Zum he plainly stated he could do thousands of them, but only needed to do one. IMPs are just normal punches to Wally when he's going super fast -- they're white dwarf stars to everyone else.

And this is the reason Wally was erased from the New52. He was insanely over-powered.

When they do eventually bring him back, his powers will have received a major downgrade, I am sure.

Barry can Speed Force dump people through thought now, so he's basically on the road to being broken again, but then again he only used it on Grodd once.

#114 Posted by Dredeuced (4395 posts) - - Show Bio

@omnicrono: This has nothing to do with why Wally was removed.

#115 Posted by New_World_Order (11133 posts) - - Show Bio

@thc said:

He really, really can't. But don't tell that to the "billion IMPS in the first picosecond of the battle" fanboys.

A morals off, bloodlusted Wally West is almost completely speculative, but yes, he would hypothetically beat pretty much anybody.

.... no.

Hell King Spawn wins.

Ghost Rider Wins.

Odin Wins.

Galactus Wins.

Beyonder Wins.

So many guys can beat Blood Lusted Wally with Wally having no chance.

I agree Ghost Rider has the power to kill Wally easily, but how does he tag him?

#116 Posted by Pokergeist (22299 posts) - - Show Bio

@cadencev2 said:

@thc said:

He really, really can't. But don't tell that to the "billion IMPS in the first picosecond of the battle" fanboys.

A morals off, bloodlusted Wally West is almost completely speculative, but yes, he would hypothetically beat pretty much anybody.

.... no.

Hell King Spawn wins.

Ghost Rider Wins.

Odin Wins.

Galactus Wins.

Beyonder Wins.

So many guys can beat Blood Lusted Wally with Wally having no chance.

I agree Ghost Rider has the power to kill Wally easily, but how does he tag him?

By out living Wally. Contrary to popular belief Wally needs food, water, sleep, and ages.

Spirit of Vengeance does not.

Online
#117 Edited by Dredeuced (4395 posts) - - Show Bio

@cadencev2: Jay Garrick has actually proven that the Flashes don't age(or atleast, to death, Bart still gets older) when they're closely tied to the speed force. Atleast, pre-52. He was stuck at 60 something for a few decades. Same with Max Mercury.

Maybe in all those years Wally could scrounge up a magic weapon from the JL supplies. Ask Doctor Fate for some help while dodging ghost rider blasts :P

#118 Edited by Pokergeist (22299 posts) - - Show Bio

@cadencev2: Jay Garrick has actually proven that the Flashes don't age(or atleast, to death, Bart still gets older) when they're closely tied to the speed force. Atleast, pre-52. He was stuck at 60 something for a few decades. Same with Max Mercury.

Maybe in all those years Wally could scrounge up a magic weapon from the JL supplies. Ask Doctor Fate for some help while dodging ghost rider blasts :P

True, however that would be Self BFR and Flash proves with his own Power set he cannot beat a Spirit of Vengeance.

;) Check Mate.

Online
#119 Edited by Dredeuced (4395 posts) - - Show Bio

@cadencev2 said:

@dredeuced said:

@cadencev2: Jay Garrick has actually proven that the Flashes don't age(or atleast, to death, Bart still gets older) when they're closely tied to the speed force. Atleast, pre-52. He was stuck at 60 something for a few decades. Same with Max Mercury.

Maybe in all those years Wally could scrounge up a magic weapon from the JL supplies. Ask Doctor Fate for some help while dodging ghost rider blasts :P

True, however that would be Self BFR and Flash proves with his own Power set he cannot beat a Spirit of Vengeance.

;) Check Mate.

It's not BFR if you can come back! And who's to say he wouldn't just be in both places at once? :P

Heck he even did it across the world once when he was battling for the justice league and the elite at the same time in simultaneous battles! Ghost Rider would be thinking he was fighting Wally the whole time while he has a pleasant conversation with Dr. Fate :P

But yeah, agreed that if they can't be BFR'd dimensionally, through time, damaged physically, or destroyed molecularly/atomically, or speed stolen into incapacity, then Flash doesn't have a way in his base toolset to beat em. It'd be a really long stalemate until one of them gives up or figures out a way to hurt each other, and if Wally can't get magical assistance, the default goes to the Riders.

#120 Edited by SpideyPresence (1906 posts) - - Show Bio

Flash is strong. He doesn't beat everyone, but with his speed he can beat many. People under rate him because they can't see through the "He's just a human" and "It's just speed" arguments. Speed kills, or in this case, The Speed Force.

#121 Posted by Pokergeist (22299 posts) - - Show Bio

@cadencev2 said:

@dredeuced said:

@cadencev2: Jay Garrick has actually proven that the Flashes don't age(or atleast, to death, Bart still gets older) when they're closely tied to the speed force. Atleast, pre-52. He was stuck at 60 something for a few decades. Same with Max Mercury.

Maybe in all those years Wally could scrounge up a magic weapon from the JL supplies. Ask Doctor Fate for some help while dodging ghost rider blasts :P

True, however that would be Self BFR and Flash proves with his own Power set he cannot beat a Spirit of Vengeance.

;) Check Mate.

It's not BFR if you can come back! And who's to say he wouldn't just be in both places at once? :P

Heck he even did it across the world once when he was battling for the justice league and the elite at the same time in simultaneous battles! Ghost Rider would be thinking he was fighting Wally the whole time while he has a pleasant conversation with Dr. Fate :P

But yeah, agreed that if they can't be BFR'd dimensionally, through time, damaged physically, or destroyed molecularly/atomically, or speed stolen into incapacity, then Flash doesn't have a way in his base toolset to beat em.

Well, by that logic, GR can stay in hell and summon infinite Spirit of Vengeance to endlessly send after Flash.

So Flash vs a never ending Tide of Spirit of Vengeance.

Check Mate again.

Online
#122 Edited by Dredeuced (4395 posts) - - Show Bio

@cadencev2: Psh that's like, what, a few thousand? Give Flash a holy sword and he can carve through that many in a picosecond.

But giving him a magic sword would be unfair. :(

Also it can't be check mate again. If it was checkmate the first time there can't be an again, lol.

#123 Edited by jamesisaacs (211 posts) - - Show Bio

How can he punch somebody at such speeds without breaking his hand along with the the rest of his arm. Last i checked Flash is a mere human in terms of durability

#124 Posted by Dredeuced (4395 posts) - - Show Bio

How can he punch somebody at such speeds without breaking his hand along with the the rest of his arm. Last i checked Flash is a mere human in terms of durability

Then you never checked. Flash is not a normal human in durability and never has been. He is protected from the downsides of his own speed (like friction or hitting things) via a speed force aura. Similar reason as to why Superman's clothes don't disintegrate when he sits in the sun, auras protect them.

#125 Posted by Pokergeist (22299 posts) - - Show Bio

@cadencev2: Psh that's like, what, a few thousand? Give Flash a holy sword and he can carve through that many in a picosecond.

But giving him a magic sword would be unfair. :(

Also it can't be check mate again. If it was checkmate the first time there can't be an again, lol.

True, however GR can envelope himself in a Half Mile Hellfire Nova Fire Ball. While Summoning Hell Fire Rain.

Dont see Flash getting close and spending more time dodging and moving around than anything.

Online
#126 Edited by jamesisaacs (211 posts) - - Show Bio

@jamesisaacs said:

How can he punch somebody at such speeds without breaking his hand along with the the rest of his arm. Last i checked Flash is a mere human in terms of durability

Then you never checked. Flash is not a normal human in durability and never has been. He is protected from the downsides of his own speed (like friction or hitting things) via a speed force aura. Similar reason as to why Superman's clothes don't disintegrate when he sits in the sun, auras protect them.

The Speed Force protects him from moving that fast and stops his hand from breaking when he punches things, even if his fist connects with Superman's chest for example? That is PIS.

#127 Posted by Dredeuced (4395 posts) - - Show Bio

@dredeuced said:

@cadencev2: Psh that's like, what, a few thousand? Give Flash a holy sword and he can carve through that many in a picosecond.

But giving him a magic sword would be unfair. :(

Also it can't be check mate again. If it was checkmate the first time there can't be an again, lol.

True, however GR can envelope himself in a Half Mile Hellfire Nova Fire Ball. While Summoning Hell Fire Rain.

Dont see Flash getting close and spending more time dodging and moving around than anything.

Nah, Flash can vibrate himself right through energy blasts:

Though he wouldn't be able to see, it'd hardly hurt him. Carve 'em up through the refractory period!

I mean unless GR thinks his blast would fail and would just keep them up indefinitely, then I guess they just sit there, vibrating and exploding at each other, lol.

#128 Edited by Dredeuced (4395 posts) - - Show Bio

@jamesisaacs said:

@dredeuced said:

@jamesisaacs said:

How can he punch somebody at such speeds without breaking his hand along with the the rest of his arm. Last i checked Flash is a mere human in terms of durability

Then you never checked. Flash is not a normal human in durability and never has been. He is protected from the downsides of his own speed (like friction or hitting things) via a speed force aura. Similar reason as to why Superman's clothes don't disintegrate when he sits in the sun, auras protect them.

The Speed Force protects him from moving that fast and stops his hand from breaking when he punches things, even if his fist connects with Superman's chest for example? That is PIS.

Why is it PIS? It's an aura that mitigates him from hurting himself with his own powers.

It's not plot related. It's an established aspect of his powers for the last 2 decades. You throw around PIS without knowing what it means. If his powers didn't work that way then he'd literally kill himself the second he went like mach 100 from the sheer g force on his body.

#129 Edited by Lvenger (15969 posts) - - Show Bio

@dredeuced: You're killing it with your Wally West knowledge on this thread. All shall bow before your wisdom! :P

#130 Edited by Inconvenient_Truth (2362 posts) - - Show Bio

Why can Flash beat everyone? I dont know about "everyone", but probably because he's wayyyy faster than light, CAN punch harder than superman with IMP(as stated by wonderwoman), and can react faster than anyone, essentially making all or most of his opponents powers irrelevant, and can steal peoples speed making them unable to move, can BFR them to the speed force, and is invulnerable to TP

#131 Edited by Pokergeist (22299 posts) - - Show Bio

@cadencev2 said:

@dredeuced said:

@cadencev2: Psh that's like, what, a few thousand? Give Flash a holy sword and he can carve through that many in a picosecond.

But giving him a magic sword would be unfair. :(

Also it can't be check mate again. If it was checkmate the first time there can't be an again, lol.

True, however GR can envelope himself in a Half Mile Hellfire Nova Fire Ball. While Summoning Hell Fire Rain.

Dont see Flash getting close and spending more time dodging and moving around than anything.

Nah, Flash can vibrate himself right through energy blasts:

Though he wouldn't be able to see, it'd hardly hurt him. Carve 'em up through the refractory period!

I mean unless GR thinks his blast would fail and would just keep them up indefinitely, then I guess they just sit there, vibrating and exploding at each other, lol.

Except Wally cannot vibrate through Magic Soul Burning Fire!

Online
#132 Edited by Dredeuced (4395 posts) - - Show Bio

@cadencev2: I'd like to replace that image with "It's Speed Force. I ain't gotta explain sh*t." :P

If he can vibrate through the embodiment of death, he can vibrate through magic fire!

#133 Edited by Pokergeist (22299 posts) - - Show Bio

@dredeuced:

Except Speed Force works with physics. Magic does not.

Magic/Reality Warping > Speed Force/Physics.

Online
#134 Posted by Dredeuced (4395 posts) - - Show Bio

@dredeuced:

Except Speed Force works with physics. Magic does not.

Magic/Reality Warping > Speed Force/Physics.

The Speed Force doesn't work with physics. It outright breaks all laws of physics over its knee like cheap glass.

Also Magic =/= Reality Warping necessarily (lots of magic has rules) and it's not necessarily more powerful than physics. Captain Atom would probably beat Zatanna :P

#135 Edited by SSJLozza (1527 posts) - - Show Bio

I think there are some that can beat him surely? I mean the Spectre for example.

#136 Posted by Dredeuced (4395 posts) - - Show Bio

@ssjlozza said:

I think there are some that can beat him surely? I mean the Spectre for example.

Lots and lots of characters beat Wally. The OP was using a bit of hyperbole.

#137 Edited by Pfcoolio14 (973 posts) - - Show Bio

@inconvenient_truth:

I'm not looking for an argument, but can I get a scan of where Wonderwoman said he can punch harder than Superman with his speed. And another hypothetical question, could Superman technically imp.@dredeuced:

#138 Posted by Pfcoolio14 (973 posts) - - Show Bio

@dredeuced: Doesn't the hell fire technically burn the soul.

#139 Edited by Dredeuced (4395 posts) - - Show Bio

@pfcoolio14 said:

@inconvenient_truth:

I'm not looking for an argument, but can I get a scan of where Wonderwoman said he can punch harder than Superman with his speed. And another hypothetical question, could Superman technically imp.@dredeuced:

Wonder Woman only said Zoom hits harder than Superman, but Wally employs the exact same move with the IMP, so it's a logical extrapolation:

Superman can most definitely IMP -- the problem is, he doesn't get up to speed nearly as fast as speedsters, so he can't use it in a fight. If Superman could instantly accelerate to near light speed in combat then it'd be easy. He also does not have the speed force aura, so this attack KO'd him upon using it:

As said, he has to accelerate for some time to get up to speed, and control it. The Flashes/Zooms do it much easier thanks to the level of control they have.

@pfcoolio14 said:

@dredeuced: Doesn't the hell fire technically burn the soul.

I believe so, but I thought the soul burning part only affected scum/bad guys. Wally's literally never killed or even maimed anyone -- he's the goodiest goody two shoes in the league. The worst thing he's ever done is asked the Spectre to make everyone forget his secret identity.

Hellfire's also just a big heat blast thing that hurts you even if you are good, that's why I was bringing up the phasing through blasts thing. I'm not being too serious though -- we already established Wally can't hurt full power GRs without outside help, so he clearly can't win. I was just having fun with Cadence.

#140 Posted by Pfcoolio14 (973 posts) - - Show Bio

@dredeuced: Last question,

What in the world does Zoom mean by he wants to make her better?

I don't get that

And also, why doesn't DC just outright say Wally is more powerful than Superman? And why did they get rid of him?

#141 Posted by New_World_Order (11133 posts) - - Show Bio
#142 Edited by Dredeuced (4395 posts) - - Show Bio

@pfcoolio14 said:

@dredeuced: Last question,

What in the world does Zoom mean by he wants to make her better?

I don't get that

And also, why doesn't DC just outright say Wally is more powerful than Superman? And why did they get rid of him?

Oh boy, okay, let's start with Zoom.

Hunter Zolomon was an FBI Agent and a close friend of Wally West's -- at the time, Wally's identity was publicly known. Zolomon, while doing police stuff at Iron Heights (The Flash's jail) was crippled in an attack by Gorilla Grodd. Knowing that Wally is a time traveler, he begged Wally to use his ability to save him from being crippled. Wally refused, although sadly, because he knows messing with the timeline has caused some TERRIBLE and crazy stuff to happen (the entire Chain Lightning arc, for instance, almost made the Anti Monitor WIN during COIE). Hunter, desperate to fix himself, goes to the Flash Museum where the Cosmic Treadmill is at, to try to use it to go back in time and save himself.

The Cosmic Treadmill is an old Silver Age plot device thing -- it is how Barry Allen, the second Flash, time traveled (he could not outright do it like Wally eventually learned to). Knowing this, Hunter attempted to use it -- the problem was, he is not a Speedster and could not provide the proper kinetic energy to sate the device. This caused it to explode. The explosion then separated Zolomon from the standard time line -- he was now out of sync with the universe and could control his own, out of place timeline's speed relative to the real world's speed, making his speed basically infinite. He decided that this was all because Wally wouldn't do what was necessary -- he thought Barry Allen was a better hero because the original Professor Zoom killed his wife and Barry, through that tragedy, was a better hero for it because he eventually killed Professor Zoom.

So, Zolomon with his new found super speed decided to take up the reverse Flash uniform (with a similar alteration to it to make it more like Wally's, such as the longer cowl and the filled in eyes) and went on a psychopathic tear to cause Wally to be better by killing his loved ones -- to make him more like Barry, who he thought would've helped him when Wally did not. He applies this logic, making the superheroes he idolizes better through tragedy and desperation, to all superheroes. Zoom is never actually trying to kill or beat the Superheroes -- he just desperately wants to make them better. It's why, despite his enormous powers, the only people he ever kills are those connected to the heroes rather than the heroes themselves.

Zoom does not consider himself a villain, or even evil in any way, just a necessary force to cause Superheroes to improve:

Okay, onto the topic of why DC got rid of Wally. Dan Didio is a silver age nerd at heart, and he runs DC operations. Before Flashpoint ever happened, Didio and co. decided to bring Barry Allen back during Final Crisis. Favoring Barry over Wally, they ran the Flash: Rebirth series to parade Barry as the new franchise holder for The Flash title. There was a huge backlash, as Wally didn't go anywhere -- he was still alive and, by all accounts, a much better and more successful Flash than Barry ever was. He also had a much bigger fanbase, as Flash sales TANKED when they ran Rebirth. DC had since wanted to reboot continuity anyhow, so with all the other alterations Flashpoint made, they decided to make it so that Wally and his stories never existed or happened, and that the new Flash title would be about Barry learning his powers all over again, but this time with the Speed force (The speed force was not a concept back when Barry was the Flash, only after he died was it revealed as the source of their powers when Wally became the Flash).

So basically, Didio wanted Barry and to get people to shut up about wanting Wally back, he erased him from history. This also erased Linda, Max Mercury, Jay Garrick (who is now Earth 2's Flash), Jesse Quick, Johnny Quick, Bart Allen (the new-52 Bart Allen is not the same one as pre-52, he's not even actually Bart Allen, apparently) and Wally's kids from continuity. Basically, DC got rid of everything that Wally ever did so that Barry could be the Flash again.

DC has not outright said Flash is more powerful than Superman, but many, many writers have come out and said that The Flash is the most difficult character to write for because he's too fast and can solve problems too easily. Just go read Wally West's comicvine page and you'll see like 5 different writers point out how hard it is to write The Flash correctly because of how powerful he is. This is why Wally, more often than not, has some silly losses where he gets caught by something he shouldn't -- the writer didn't know what to do with him, so they come up with a stupid but throw away scenario where he gets hit. I also provided you the Amazo scans which themselves show atleast some writer knowledge that Wally is more dangerous than Clark.

#143 Posted by RudeBomberBoy01 (1403 posts) - - Show Bio

@pfcoolio14: They got rid of him because he was a broken character. I mean the s#it he pulls off in the comics. The writers must've been smoking some of the finest weed in the galaxy when they were making him do these ridiculous things.. (Destroying Anti-Monitor's armour... dafuq.. running in space??? dafuq? Stealing peoples' speed and turning them into statues? ULTRADUPERDAFUQ!)

They had to get rid of him...

Don't even get me started on Zoom. Trying to uderstand that guy makes my brain hurt.

I still like em but FlyingSpaghettiMonsterDamn are they ridiculous!

#144 Posted by Pfcoolio14 (973 posts) - - Show Bio

@dredeuced:

No lie, that sounds like the most Jerk thing to do ever. That's horrible erasing a character and dozens of others from continuity just to get who you want.

But aside from that, if Zoom is controlling his own timeline to go faster, why doesn't he age?

Thanks for the answer by the way.

#145 Edited by Dredeuced (4395 posts) - - Show Bio

@pfcoolio14 said:

@dredeuced:

No lie, that sounds like the most Jerk thing to do ever. That's horrible erasing a character and dozens of others from continuity just to get who you want.

But aside from that, if Zoom is controlling his own timeline to go faster, why doesn't he age?

Thanks for the answer by the way.

He's not going faster -- everyone else is going slower relative to him. I mean, even then, he's kinda a sketchy character. He shouldn't be able to survive falling several hundred feet and shouldn't be able to run up the sides of buildings if he's just making everyone else slower to him. It's best not to question it, they just wanted to make a reverse Flash who wouldn't be affected by Wally's speed stealing and could be explained as faster without going "Speed force" like Professor Zoom.

Yes, the deletion of 50 years of Wally West (back to his Kid Flash days) was quite the kick in the balls to any fans of his. I'm quite bitter about it, but I've moved on.

I don't mind ever answering any earnest questions anyone has. That was my intention in the first place when I came into this thread.

#146 Posted by Killerjax (353 posts) - - Show Bio

Flash is horribly overpowered, it would be stupid to think otherwise. A lot of the "Fanboys" arent wrong most of the time, all these feats are Flashes.

What Flash has over people like Prime or Superman (who are overpowered too in theyre own right if you look at theyre feats) is speed, he could literally obliterate them before a second even goes past if he found it necessary.

I dont have much to add to this thread because all the points have been covered. There are characters that could beat Flash.

One question, Do Parallax or Ion feats count for Kyle or Hal (possessed)?

#147 Posted by Dredeuced (4395 posts) - - Show Bio

Flash is horribly overpowered, it would be stupid to think otherwise. A lot of the "Fanboys" arent wrong most of the time, all these feats are Flashes.

What Flash has over people like Prime or Superman (who are overpowered too in theyre own right if you look at theyre feats) is speed, he could literally obliterate them before a second even goes past if he found it necessary.

I dont have much to add to this thread because all the points have been covered. There are characters that could beat Flash.

One question, Do Parallax or Ion feats count for Kyle or Hal (possessed)?

No. People usually separate Parallax and Ion from the normal Kyle and Hal showings.

#148 Posted by Pokergeist (22299 posts) - - Show Bio

@cadencev2 said:

@dredeuced:

Except Speed Force works with physics. Magic does not.

Magic/Reality Warping > Speed Force/Physics.

The Speed Force doesn't work with physics. It outright breaks all laws of physics over its knee like cheap glass.

Also Magic =/= Reality Warping necessarily (lots of magic has rules) and it's not necessarily more powerful than physics. Captain Atom would probably beat Zatanna :P

Magic does not follow the rules is the point. Reality Warping is better in many ways to magic. Spawn uses Reality Warping Magic which is the best IMO. Point is Physics can be apllied to Speed Force.

Pico Second

IMP

Momentum in Attacks

All Physics baby. GR Burns your soul. Total different ball game.

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#149 Edited by Dredeuced (4395 posts) - - Show Bio

@cadencev2 said:

@dredeuced said:

@cadencev2 said:

@dredeuced:

Except Speed Force works with physics. Magic does not.

Magic/Reality Warping > Speed Force/Physics.

The Speed Force doesn't work with physics. It outright breaks all laws of physics over its knee like cheap glass.

Also Magic =/= Reality Warping necessarily (lots of magic has rules) and it's not necessarily more powerful than physics. Captain Atom would probably beat Zatanna :P

Magic does not follow the rules is the point. Reality Warping is better in many ways to magic. Spawn uses Reality Warping Magic which is the best IMO. Point is Physics can be apllied to Speed Force.

Pico Second

IMP

Momentum in Attacks

All Physics baby. GR Burns your soul. Total different ball game.

Picosecond is a scale of time. GR's attacks still happen in a given amount of time. GUESS HE'S PHYSICS :P

Speed Force outright defies physics because you can go faster than light, ignore friction, ignore g-forces, ignore molecular cohesion, vibrate through dimensions, time travel backwards and forwards, create matter out of pure energy, etc etc. While its effects are frequently explained with physics, you can explain a lot of non-physics based superhero nonsense with physics even if their powers aren't based that way.

I mean, the Speed force is an infinite extradimensional energy source, nothing in physics that explains infinite energy in an alternate dimension.

Just because someone's powers are magical doesn't automatically make them better. Odin's powers are magical, would you say he beats Galactus, whose powers are sciencey? Course not!

That said, as I've admitted, Wally can't hurt the GRs (though apparently you can still use them in street level tournaments :P) so it's moot

#150 Edited by Pokergeist (22299 posts) - - Show Bio

@dredeuced said:

Picosecond is a scale of time. GR's attacks still happen in a given amount of time. GUESS HE'S PHYSICS :P

Speed Force outright defies physics because you can go faster than light, ignore friction, ignore g-forces, ignore molecular cohesion, vibrate through dimensions, time travel backwards and forwards, create matter out of pure energy, etc etc. While its effects are frequently explained with physics, you can explain a lot of non-physics based superhero nonsense with physics even if their powers aren't based that way.

I mean, the Speed force is an infinite extradimensional energy source, nothing in physics that explains infinite energy in an alternate dimension.

Just because someone's powers are magical doesn't automatically make them better. Odin's powers are magical, would you say he beats Galactus, whose powers are sciencey? Course not!

That said, as I've admitted, Wally can't hurt the GRs (though apparently you can still use them in street level tournaments :P) so it's moot

FTL is not defying Physics. Students of a University already made a Laser that moves 3x FTL. It is not Speed Force. Infact everything you mention Science is trying and coming close to make theories about today.

Also can you measure Soul Burn for me? How about the energy of Hell? The Pain Damage of a Penance Stare?

Flash feats are mesurable by Science of today. GR Soul and Hell powers are not.

Magic/Reality Warping > Speed Force/Physics.

Now we are arguing semantics. :P

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