#1 Posted by Pfcoolio14 (1138 posts) - - Show Bio

I know this isn't an actual battle but I guess it relates to the battle forum.

I just don't understand how the Flash beats everyone on these forums. He's incapable of doing so in the comics or on the TV shows.

He has problems with enemies like Deathstroke or Gorilla Grodd. So why is it that speedblitz makes him near invulnerable against opponents like Superman or Wonderwoman that can fly and have other powers to harm him and he hasn't been shown to be able to beat in the comics.

Wouldn't the speedblitz be hard on him. I mean if he kept punching superman, superman's reaction time isn't that far behind flash. So he could grab the dude and throw him in the air where he has no power. Or more preferably, the sun.

Doesn't that mean he should get higher level enemies like Doomsday or Ares?

#2 Edited by THC (367 posts) - - Show Bio

He really, really can't. But don't tell that to the "billion IMPS in the first picosecond of the battle" fanboys.

A morals off, bloodlusted Wally West is almost completely speculative (like many characters), but yes, he would hypothetically beat pretty much anybody.

#3 Posted by Tim_Drake4444 (1086 posts) - - Show Bio

Flash is always usually nerfed in TV shows, and in the comics he doesn't find it neccessary to put in all he has being that he could put harm to those he's against. He's a hero after all.

#4 Posted by Pfcoolio14 (1138 posts) - - Show Bio

@thc: Doesn't he need to be moving at a constantly increasing rate to imp. That's a one hit and move on kind of deal. How would he speedblitz with it.

#5 Posted by nerdork (4039 posts) - - Show Bio

Flash always wins; because Flash fanboys all take turns orally pleasing the prospective writers for every version of the character, in hopes that they will maintain his omnipotence.

#6 Posted by celtic (780 posts) - - Show Bio

HUUUR DUUUR SPEED FORCE FTW!

#7 Edited by Dredeuced (5855 posts) - - Show Bio

@pfcoolio14 said:

I know this isn't an actual battle but I guess it relates to the battle forum.

I just don't understand how the Flash beats everyone on these forums. He's incapable of doing so in the comics or on the TV shows.

He has problems with enemies like Deathstroke or Gorilla Grodd. So why is it that speedblitz makes him near invulnerable against opponents like Superman or Wonderwoman that can fly and have other powers to harm him and he hasn't been shown to be able to beat in the comics.

Wouldn't the speedblitz be hard on him. I mean if he kept punching superman, superman's reaction time isn't that far behind flash. So he could grab the dude and throw him in the air where he has no power. Or more preferably, the sun.

Doesn't that mean he should get higher level enemies like Doomsday or Ares?

Wally does have higher level enemies. Kadabra, Professor Zoom, Zoom and Mirror Master are some of the most powerful villains that any JL members has -- I'd argue that Kadabra is more powerful than anyone Superman frequently fights. He's quite seriously a reality warper that Wally typically has to outsmart to beat, or blitz before he can use his powers. Zoom and Professor Zoom have both humiliated the rest of the Justice League before using their speed.

In the same sense that he has "trouble" with Grodd and Deathstroke, Wonder Woman has trouble with Cheetah, Superman has had trouble with Toy Man, whatever -- everyone tends to play down to their villains depending on how the writer writes it.

Wally is not incapable of doing so in the comics -- he's had quite a few excellent showings, such as one shotting White Martians (Superman can't claim this), completely destroying COIE Anti Monitor's armor by himself (Again, the entirety of DC Earth couldn't pull this off), soloing Mongul (Superman can claim this, but he's also lost to Mongul before), and fighting the aforementioned recurring villains I talked about. Even in the JL Cartoon, he was the most powerful leaguer -- he defeated Luthor/Brainiac combo and he was practically unstoppable when Luthor was in his body. He was quite powerful, but his goofy demeanor and kind heart reeled him in.

Superman's reaction time is actually VASTLY slower than Wally's. Wally, at bare minimum, has picosecond reaction time as displayed several times in comics -- Superman has a nanosecond reaction time at best. A nanosecond is 1,000 times longer than a picosecond.

The reason Wally is so powerful in the battle forums is because battles aren't written by typical comic writers who come up with scenarios that limit Flash (such as him losing his memory and not remembering his powers) or just plain forget to use his powers intelligently for story purposes. Battles tend to remove writer stupidity or plot stupidity. When you compare powersets, Wally is basically a herald+ level character. Few characters in comics frequently do things in picoseconds, which means in every battle Wally always gets the first hit or wins the quick draw. Given that he has powerhouse level striking strength, he quite frequently wins battles by just infinite mass punching them. Speedblitz is not "hard" on him -- his go to method for dealing with people is super fast punching, and he only rarely hurts himself thanks to the speed force (some writers forget the speed force protects him and write it as him hurting himself when he punches at high speeds -- inconsistency in comics at its finest).

Beyond his amazing speed and high striking strength, he's also got the utterly broken Speed Steal. Being able to increase his own speed while turning his opponent's to a crawl is hilariously overpowered, and it's one of his more frequently used powers. Fact is, unless you can beat him before he uses it or are immune, it's basically impossible to beat Wally if he can speed steal you.

For opponents who are too durable for his punches and unable to be speed stolen for some reason, his final tactic is speed force dumping them. He can either drop them in an alternate reality, like he did Superboy Prime, or dump them off in the future like he did Professor Zoom. He can also, technically, dump them off at the end of time like he did the Black Flash, which would cease their existence on a fundamental level.

Also he's, albeit infrequently, shown the ability to fly, both in air and in space.

Also no, he does not need to be moving constantly to IMP. He did it against Professor Zoom while standing still, and when he did it to Zum he plainly stated he could do thousands of them, but only needed to do one. IMPs are just normal punches to Wally when he's going super fast -- they're white dwarf stars to everyone else.

#8 Posted by Bossmonster (2386 posts) - - Show Bio

@pfcoolio14: I don't guess you want a long drawn out answer. So here is the real answer.
They dumb The Flash down. Feats plus history put The Flash past 98% of anyone. Pico-second movements and the ability to phase though object means he could seriously snatch a persons lungs out before they understood that the battle had started.

IMP or no, what The Flash is capable of is just too broken if he actually means to kill the person.

#9 Posted by Pokergeist (22351 posts) - - Show Bio

@thc said:

He really, really can't. But don't tell that to the "billion IMPS in the first picosecond of the battle" fanboys.

A morals off, bloodlusted Wally West is almost completely speculative, but yes, he would hypothetically beat pretty much anybody.

.... no.

Hell King Spawn wins.

Ghost Rider Wins.

Odin Wins.

Galactus Wins.

Beyonder Wins.

So many guys can beat Blood Lusted Wally with Wally having no chance.

#10 Edited by Dredeuced (5855 posts) - - Show Bio

@cadencev2: Why would Ghost Rider win? Doesn't he go down to high enough physical force?

But yeah, it's safe to say most cosmic entities can beat Wally purely because he lacks a way to harm them.

#11 Posted by Shavo (2061 posts) - - Show Bio

there is this thing called infinite mass punch...

#12 Posted by Veshark (9058 posts) - - Show Bio

Here's a theory. I'm no Flash expert, so I'm just curious to hear what you guys think.

Could intangible characters be affected by Wally West? Like Vision or Cloak. Would Wally still be able to speed-steal or speed-blitz such characters?

What about someone like Deadman, who's essentially an incorporeal mystic entity with no physical form. Could he potentially possess Wally and make Wally, I don't know, kill himself?

#14 Posted by Pokergeist (22351 posts) - - Show Bio

there is this thing called infinite mass punch...

Thing is it means nothing to beings who cannot be harm by physical means.

@cadencev2: Why would Ghost Rider win? Doesn't he go down to high enough physical force?

But yeah, it's safe to say most cosmic entities can beat Wally purely because he lacks a way to harm them.

GR like Nobel Kale, Zarathos, and Ketch from Last Stand are ALL Immune to Physical Damage. And they cannot be BFR via Speed Force as they travel Dimensions and Time.

#15 Edited by Dredeuced (5855 posts) - - Show Bio

@veshark said:

Here's a theory. I'm no Flash expert, so I'm just curious to hear what you guys think.

Could intangible characters be affected by Wally West? Like Vision or Cloak. Would Wally still be able to speed-steal or speed-blitz such characters?

What about someone like Deadman, who's essentially an incorporeal mystic entity with no physical form. Could he potentially possess Wally and make Wally, I don't know, kill himself?

Depending on how their intangibility works, Wally has shown the ability to counter it -- like he did with Martian Manhunter. If it has anything to do with atomic density or high speed vibration, then Wally can still hit them.

I'm not sure he could do anything to Deadman. Wally's speed steal works down to the electron/atomic level, but Deadman isn't made of atoms, and his speed force dump relies on him moving his opponent. I don't think Deadman can make someone kill themselves, or atleast not a high will character like any major superhero. He'd also have to catch up with Wally's body to possess him -- if Wally ever regained control for a split second, he could take them both to another dimension, wait for Deadman's control to run out, then leave him there.

#16 Edited by DedrabbiT (587 posts) - - Show Bio

what @dredeuced said. Spot on man.

Plus you gotta figure his rogues work together a lot of the time. That gives them better chances. People like captain cold and his cold field is a specific power to stop the flash. Very very few people in comics have that kind of power. Also just recently, Grodd had the speed force. That's a deadly combination. But Flash just dumped him in the speed force. He could essentially do this to almost anyone.

Flash is overpowered, he is awesome though, and it's a shame the general public doesn't understand how powerful he really is.

Really, everyone I talk you outside of comicvine almost thinks that Flash is super weak. Like oh he runs really fast so what. Not true.

#17 Posted by Wolfrazer (7730 posts) - - Show Bio

Because since battles here aren't written by the author, the characters aren't restricted and thus people just say "speedblitz" for any character who can travel at minimal beyond the speed of sound or beyond the speed of light and the opponent who wouldn't be able to react in time. Lame argument...but seems to work here.

#18 Posted by Shavo (2061 posts) - - Show Bio

@kingjames447 said:

there is this thing called infinite mass punch...

Thing is it means nothing to beings who cannot be harm by physical means.


uhmmm can you repeat that in a way that makes sense?

#19 Edited by Veshark (9058 posts) - - Show Bio

@dredeuced

Oh yeah, I read that scan - Wally can force molecules together with the SF apparently. It would probably work on Vision, but Cloak is apparently the form of a demon named D'Spayre, so I'm not sure how that would turn out.

Interesting. But Wally wouldn't be able to see Deadman. If this is a random encounter where neither character knows about each other, Wally wouldn't know who it was up against, and Deadman could possibly enter a non-moving Wally. Then I guess it comes down to a battle of mental strength. Also, I'm fairly certain that Deadman is a dimension-traveler himself, though I could be wrong.

Would it be fair to say that Deadman is - given certain circumstances such as a non-mobile Wally and Deadman having enough willpower - the lowest-level character who could defeat Wally? Could he make Wally vibrate his own hand through his brain?

#20 Posted by wolverine1610 (250 posts) - - Show Bio

Because he can react faster than others can even think, flash: rebirth showed that he's even much faster than superman. unfortunately the animated shows (and even the comics sometimes) downplays how fast he can really be

#21 Posted by Dredeuced (5855 posts) - - Show Bio

@veshark said:

@dredeuced

Oh yeah, I read that scan - Wally can force molecules together with the SF apparently. It would probably work on Vision, but Cloak is apparently the form of a demon named D'Spayre, so I'm not sure how that would turn out.

Interesting. But Wally wouldn't be able to see Deadman. If this is a random encounter where neither character knows about each other, Wally wouldn't know who it was up against, and Deadman could possibly enter a non-moving Wally. Then I guess it comes down to a battle of mental strength. Also, I'm fairly certain that Deadman is a dimension-traveler himself, though I could be wrong.

Would it be fair to say that Deadman is - given certain circumstances such as a non-mobile Wally and Deadman having enough willpower - the lowest-level character who could defeat Wally? Could he make Wally vibrate his own hand through his brain?

Deadman can't time travel, which is where Wally leaves them -- Wally is also aware of Deadman so it can't be a no knowledge situation, even if it's a random encounter.

You'd have to argue if Deadman could even think at the speeds that require molecular control the way Wally does. His best bet would be to have him jump off a cliff without using his speed force aura -- so it comes down to if Wally can break Deadman's control. It happens a lot, and Wally's no pushover mentally, so I think you could argue that Deadman shouldn't be able to beat Wally and his possession would leave him vulnerable to BFR into the time stream.

#22 Edited by mightyrearranger (1714 posts) - - Show Bio

@dedrabbit said:

what @dredeuced said. Spot on man.

Plus you gotta figure his rogues work together a lot of the time. That gives them better chances. People like captain cold and his cold field is a specific power to stop the flash. Very very few people in comics have that kind of power. Also just recently, Grodd had the speed force. That's a deadly combination. But Flash just dumped him in the speed force. He could essentially do this to almost anyone.

Cold & most of his partners might be able to solo him, but just as the Flash tends to hold back, Len has a moral code of his own; he's strictly against killing heroes without due justification. Likewise, it's why you don't see Len killing most of the DCU like he did to that mook wannabe in Rogue's Revenge.

^Sorry, kind of a tangent, but I feel like Cap Cold is so often misunderstood. Obviously not by yourself, but just in general. You hit on a great point. Many of Flash's opponents are so dangerous to anyone else because their equipment is tailored to combat a man whose scientific superpower doesn't really exist elsewhere in any comic.

*and to the user who was talking about Abra Kadabra above: yes, and he has beaten Supes before

#23 Edited by Veshark (9058 posts) - - Show Bio

@dredeuced

Ah right, time-travel. Yeah, I guess he could BFR Deadman in that case.

Yeah, I can see that. I guess short of high-powered to cosmic entities, Wally is near-undefeatable. Who do you think is the lowest-ranking fighter who could defeat him, though? I've read arguments about Starheart Alan Scott before, though truth be told, I know little about the character.

#24 Posted by Dredeuced (5855 posts) - - Show Bio

@veshark said:

@dredeuced

Ah right, time-travel. Yeah, I guess he could BFR Deadman in that case.

Yeah, I can see that. I guess short of high-powered to cosmic entities, Wally is near-undefeatable. Who do you think is the lowest-ranking fighter who could defeat him, though? I've read arguments about Starheart Alan Scott before, though truth be told, I know little about the character.

Alan Scott would crush him. The guy's practically invincible with world level reality warping. Like Kadabra but without the limitation of being able to be separated from his reality warping artifact.

I dunno, there are a lot of guys who COULD defeat him based on the situation. I can't really say. I just respond to arguments people make against him because I know Wally really well -- I clearly don't know the rest of comics as well as I do Flash.

#25 Edited by The Stegman (26065 posts) - - Show Bio

Puny slowpokes can't touch Flash, Flash flashes everyone cause FLASH IS FASTEST THERE IS!.

#26 Posted by Veshark (9058 posts) - - Show Bio

@dredeuced

Oh alright then, that's interesting to know. Thanks for answering my bevy of questions, regardless, you've been a great help.

#27 Posted by AngryHulks (3001 posts) - - Show Bio

Because speed is probably the most important aspect in hypothetical battle. Most of Flash's enemies, barring Zoom shouldn't be threat to Flash at all. Like Mirror Master, for example, contrary to what many believes, don't have enough reaction time to content with Flash (look back and you'll see the panel where Flash disable Mirror Master's gun in front of him and Mirror Master didn't even notice what happens). Writers imposed PIS and CIS to prevent Flash from beating lesser enemies, removing that and Flash should be able to kill 90% of his enemies in picosecond. But where's the fun is that?

#28 Edited by Wyldsong (5898 posts) - - Show Bio

Alan Scott would crush him. The guy's practically invincible with world level reality warping. Like Kadabra but without the limitation of being able to be separated from his reality warping artifact.

I dunno, there are a lot of guys who COULD defeat him based on the situation. I can't really say. I just respond to arguments people make against him because I know Wally really well -- I clearly don't know the rest of comics as well as I do Flash.

A Flash for all intents and purposes is an energy manipulator. The speed force is a source of energy from all descriptions, and it can be drained (even if only temporarily) by someone with sufficient means -- this has happened to Barry in Road to Flashpoint by an alternate Barry that had sufficient technology. Someone with a sufficient combination of at least some of the following: tech/prep/knowledge/powers, could feasibly beat him. Like you said, a lot of it would be situational, because a properly written Flash fighting at his best, and not suffering in his power/ability for the sake of plot is a tough cookie to beat.

So we can feasibly go for less than Alan Scott and high powered cosmics, but they would need the right combination of tech/prep/knowledge/powers to pull the win.

#29 Posted by Dredeuced (5855 posts) - - Show Bio

Because speed is probably the most important aspect in hypothetical battle. Most of Flash's enemies, barring Zoom shouldn't be threat to Flash at all. Like Mirror Master, for example, contrary to what many believes, don't have enough reaction time to content with Flash (look back and you'll see the panel where Flash disable Mirror Master's gun in front of him and Mirror Master didn't even notice what happens). Writers imposed PIS and CIS to prevent Flash from beating lesser enemies, removing that and Flash should be able to kill 90% of his enemies in picosecond. But where's the fun is that?

Prep, usually. Wally can't blitz him if Mirror Master starts the fight off in the mirror verse, for instance.

#30 Posted by Pokergeist (22351 posts) - - Show Bio

@cadencev2 said:

@kingjames447 said:

there is this thing called infinite mass punch...

Thing is it means nothing to beings who cannot be harm by physical means.


uhmmm can you repeat that in a way that makes sense?

What I mean is IMP means nothing against Spawn or GR who cannot be KO or killed by NON MAGIC means.

So IMP would be useless against beings of magic like that.

#31 Posted by Ancient_0f_Days (12403 posts) - - Show Bio

@thc:

@thc said:

He really, really can't. But don't tell that to the "billion IMPS in the first picosecond of the battle" fanboys.

@celtic said:

HUUUR DUUUR SPEED FORCE FTW!

@nerdork said:

Flash always wins; because Flash fanboys all take turns orally pleasing the prospective writers for every version of the character, in hopes that they will maintain his omnipotence.

lol

butthurt

If you can't see someone, can't smell someone, can't hear someone, can't touch someone before they can see, smell, hear, and touch you, then you can't beat them. Only people who don't have to abide by this are individuals with the power to alter reality, time, and space. That's all there is to it.

#32 Edited by Pfcoolio14 (1138 posts) - - Show Bio

So you guys are telling me Flash could beat Superman. I find that hard to believe as he's never been able to. Whether it's silver age post crisis or new 52

#33 Edited by batnorris (679 posts) - - Show Bio

I like flash but I think he may be a bit OP. im pretty sure I saw someone on here calculate a scan of his of him going 13 trillion times the speed of light but idk if that's interpreted differently by people. anyways he's a cool character but if u can go that fast then whats the point?well, that's just my honest opinion anyways...

#34 Posted by Batman242 (4862 posts) - - Show Bio

@pfcoolio14 said:

I know this isn't an actual battle but I guess it relates to the battle forum.

I just don't understand how the Flash beats everyone on these forums. He's incapable of doing so in the comics or on the TV shows.

He has problems with enemies like Deathstroke or Gorilla Grodd. So why is it that speedblitz makes him near invulnerable against opponents like Superman or Wonderwoman that can fly and have other powers to harm him and he hasn't been shown to be able to beat in the comics.

Wouldn't the speedblitz be hard on him. I mean if he kept punching superman, superman's reaction time isn't that far behind flash. So he could grab the dude and throw him in the air where he has no power. Or more preferably, the sun.

Doesn't that mean he should get higher level enemies like Doomsday or Ares?

Wally does have higher level enemies. Kadabra, Professor Zoom, Zoom and Mirror Master are some of the most powerful villains that any JL members has -- I'd argue that Kadabra is more powerful than anyone Superman frequently fights. He's quite seriously a reality warper that Wally typically has to outsmart to beat, or blitz before he can use his powers. Zoom and Professor Zoom have both humiliated the rest of the Justice League before using their speed.

In the same sense that he has "trouble" with Grodd and Deathstroke, Wonder Woman has trouble with Cheetah, Superman has had trouble with Toy Man, whatever -- everyone tends to play down to their villains depending on how the writer writes it.

Wally is not incapable of doing so in the comics -- he's had quite a few excellent showings, such as one shotting White Martians (Superman can't claim this), completely destroying COIE Anti Monitor's armor by himself (Again, the entirety of DC Earth couldn't pull this off), soloing Mongul (Superman can claim this, but he's also lost to Mongul before), and fighting the aforementioned recurring villains I talked about. Even in the JL Cartoon, he was the most powerful leaguer -- he defeated Luthor/Brainiac combo and he was practically unstoppable when Luthor was in his body. He was quite powerful, but his goofy demeanor and kind heart reeled him in.

Superman's reaction time is actually VASTLY slower than Wally's. Wally, at bare minimum, has picosecond reaction time as displayed several times in comics -- Superman has a nanosecond reaction time at best. A nanosecond is 1,000 times longer than a picosecond.

The reason Wally is so powerful in the battle forums is because battles aren't written by typical comic writers who come up with scenarios that limit Flash (such as him losing his memory and not remembering his powers) or just plain forget to use his powers intelligently for story purposes. Battles tend to remove writer stupidity or plot stupidity. When you compare powersets, Wally is basically a herald+ level character. Few characters in comics frequently do things in picoseconds, which means in every battle Wally always gets the first hit or wins the quick draw. Given that he has powerhouse level striking strength, he quite frequently wins battles by just infinite mass punching them. Speedblitz is not "hard" on him -- his go to method for dealing with people is super fast punching, and he only rarely hurts himself thanks to the speed force (some writers forget the speed force protects him and write it as him hurting himself when he punches at high speeds -- inconsistency in comics at its finest).

Beyond his amazing speed and high striking strength, he's also got the utterly broken Speed Steal. Being able to increase his own speed while turning his opponent's to a crawl is hilariously overpowered, and it's one of his more frequently used powers. Fact is, unless you can beat him before he uses it or are immune, it's basically impossible to beat Wally if he can speed steal you.

For opponents who are too durable for his punches and unable to be speed stolen for some reason, his final tactic is speed force dumping them. He can either drop them in an alternate reality, like he did Superboy Prime, or dump them off in the future like he did Professor Zoom. He can also, technically, dump them off at the end of time like he did the Black Flash, which would cease their existence on a fundamental level.

Also he's, albeit infrequently, shown the ability to fly, both in air and in space.

Also no, he does not need to be moving constantly to IMP. He did it against Professor Zoom while standing still, and when he did it to Zum he plainly stated he could do thousands of them, but only needed to do one. IMPs are just normal punches to Wally when he's going super fast -- they're white dwarf stars to everyone else.

There is no way I could've said it better.

So basically QFT and thank you.

#35 Posted by drgnx (3566 posts) - - Show Bio

@pfcoolio14 said:

I know this isn't an actual battle but I guess it relates to the battle forum.

I just don't understand how the Flash beats everyone on these forums. He's incapable of doing so in the comics or on the TV shows.

He has problems with enemies like Deathstroke or Gorilla Grodd. So why is it that speedblitz makes him near invulnerable against opponents like Superman or Wonderwoman that can fly and have other powers to harm him and he hasn't been shown to be able to beat in the comics.

Wouldn't the speedblitz be hard on him. I mean if he kept punching superman, superman's reaction time isn't that far behind flash. So he could grab the dude and throw him in the air where he has no power. Or more preferably, the sun.

Doesn't that mean he should get higher level enemies like Doomsday or Ares?

Wally does have higher level enemies. Kadabra, Professor Zoom, Zoom and Mirror Master are some of the most powerful villains that any JL members has -- I'd argue that Kadabra is more powerful than anyone Superman frequently fights. He's quite seriously a reality warper that Wally typically has to outsmart to beat, or blitz before he can use his powers. Zoom and Professor Zoom have both humiliated the rest of the Justice League before using their speed.

In the same sense that he has "trouble" with Grodd and Deathstroke, Wonder Woman has trouble with Cheetah, Superman has had trouble with Toy Man, whatever -- everyone tends to play down to their villains depending on how the writer writes it.

Wally is not incapable of doing so in the comics -- he's had quite a few excellent showings, such as one shotting White Martians (Superman can't claim this), completely destroying COIE Anti Monitor's armor by himself (Again, the entirety of DC Earth couldn't pull this off), soloing Mongul (Superman can claim this, but he's also lost to Mongul before), and fighting the aforementioned recurring villains I talked about. Even in the JL Cartoon, he was the most powerful leaguer -- he defeated Luthor/Brainiac combo and he was practically unstoppable when Luthor was in his body. He was quite powerful, but his goofy demeanor and kind heart reeled him in.

Superman's reaction time is actually VASTLY slower than Wally's. Wally, at bare minimum, has picosecond reaction time as displayed several times in comics -- Superman has a nanosecond reaction time at best. A nanosecond is 1,000 times longer than a picosecond.

The reason Wally is so powerful in the battle forums is because battles aren't written by typical comic writers who come up with scenarios that limit Flash (such as him losing his memory and not remembering his powers) or just plain forget to use his powers intelligently for story purposes. Battles tend to remove writer stupidity or plot stupidity. When you compare powersets, Wally is basically a herald+ level character. Few characters in comics frequently do things in picoseconds, which means in every battle Wally always gets the first hit or wins the quick draw. Given that he has powerhouse level striking strength, he quite frequently wins battles by just infinite mass punching them. Speedblitz is not "hard" on him -- his go to method for dealing with people is super fast punching, and he only rarely hurts himself thanks to the speed force (some writers forget the speed force protects him and write it as him hurting himself when he punches at high speeds -- inconsistency in comics at its finest).

Beyond his amazing speed and high striking strength, he's also got the utterly broken Speed Steal. Being able to increase his own speed while turning his opponent's to a crawl is hilariously overpowered, and it's one of his more frequently used powers. Fact is, unless you can beat him before he uses it or are immune, it's basically impossible to beat Wally if he can speed steal you.

For opponents who are too durable for his punches and unable to be speed stolen for some reason, his final tactic is speed force dumping them. He can either drop them in an alternate reality, like he did Superboy Prime, or dump them off in the future like he did Professor Zoom. He can also, technically, dump them off at the end of time like he did the Black Flash, which would cease their existence on a fundamental level.

Also he's, albeit infrequently, shown the ability to fly, both in air and in space.

Also no, he does not need to be moving constantly to IMP. He did it against Professor Zoom while standing still, and when he did it to Zum he plainly stated he could do thousands of them, but only needed to do one. IMPs are just normal punches to Wally when he's going super fast -- they're white dwarf stars to everyone else.

Nicely said!

#36 Posted by SpawNgengiskhaN (192 posts) - - Show Bio

@dedrabbit: Yeah I know what you mean. Most of the people I speak to about The Flash in real life say the same thing. Stuff like... "What The Flash could beat Superman? I thought The Flash was just really fast?" ....... I feel like punching a wall after people say that. The Flash is much much much more than just a "super track runner" lol. Oh, and Superman isn't even close to being as fast as Wally West. Then people reply back with well... "Superman can fly, blah blah blah...." Lol, I think you guys are missing the whole point... Superman isn't even in the same league as Wally.

#37 Edited by mightyrearranger (1714 posts) - - Show Bio
@pfcoolio14 said:

So you guys are telling me Flash could beat Superman. I find that hard to believe as he's never been able to. Whether it's silver age post crisis or new 52

No, but Zoom has (& Abra)... ;)

#38 Posted by dondave (38903 posts) - - Show Bio
#39 Posted by Pfcoolio14 (1138 posts) - - Show Bio

@spawngengiskhan: Superman isn't in the same league as Wally? Um, lets see how much that imp can do after a good sundip and when superman is flying out of his reach

#40 Edited by Dredeuced (5855 posts) - - Show Bio

@pfcoolio14 said:

So you guys are telling me Flash could beat Superman. I find that hard to believe as he's never been able to. Whether it's silver age post crisis or new 52

I'm telling you Wally could effortlessly stomp Superman, and it isn't even close. That's how overpowered his abilities are. Superman's even shown direct vulnerability to Speed Steal when Jay Garrick did it, and Jay isn't nearly as good at speed stealing as Wally is.

@pfcoolio14 said:

@spawngengiskhan: Superman isn't in the same league as Wally? Um, lets see how much that imp can do after a good sundip and when superman is flying out of his reach

Oh, you want to give Superman a few minutes to sundip?

I guess wally will spend a few minutes stealing the speed of every super fast person on earth and recreating his Human Race feat. Where he was literally quintillions of times faster than light, at bare minimum. Then he'd touch Superman and cause him to explode.

Hell, bloodlusted Wally could just shut Superman's brain off with his kinetic control like Walter West does.

#41 Posted by nerdork (4039 posts) - - Show Bio

@thc:

@thc said:

He really, really can't. But don't tell that to the "billion IMPS in the first picosecond of the battle" fanboys.

@celtic said:

HUUUR DUUUR SPEED FORCE FTW!

@nerdork said:

Flash always wins; because Flash fanboys all take turns orally pleasing the prospective writers for every version of the character, in hopes that they will maintain his omnipotence.

lol

butthurt

If you can't see someone, can't smell someone, can't hear someone, can't touch someone before they can see, smell, hear, and touch you, then you can't beat them. Only people who don't have to abide by this are individuals with the power to alter reality, time, and space. That's all there is to it.

I’m actually a pretty big Flash fan…so, I was just speaking from experience. And, my knees hurt, not my butt.

LOL, JK :P, but I am a fan.

#42 Edited by Ancient_0f_Days (12403 posts) - - Show Bio

@nerdork: still ... sounded like a case of hemorrhoids for a minute ... don't blame the fanboys if they aren't exactly wrong.

#43 Edited by SpawNgengiskhaN (192 posts) - - Show Bio

@pfcoolio14: Sun dip or not Superman wouldn't even be able to touch Wally West, let alone beat him.

#44 Edited by divad4686 (182 posts) - - Show Bio

@thc said:

He really, really can't. But don't tell that to the "billion IMPS in the first picosecond of the battle" fanboys.

A morals off, bloodlusted Wally West is almost completely speculative, but yes, he would hypothetically beat pretty much anybody.

.... no.

Hell King Spawn wins.

Ghost Rider Wins.

Odin Wins.

Galactus Wins.

Beyonder Wins.

So many guys can beat Blood Lusted Wally with Wally having no chance.

You forget batman with prep.

#45 Posted by Lone_Wolf_and_Cub (5330 posts) - - Show Bio

He can't. If he could he would be written that way.

#46 Edited by SpawNgengiskhaN (192 posts) - - Show Bio

@lone_wolf_and_cub: Wally can't win against everyone correct, but there are not many that could beat Wally. Wally is up there with other powerhouses.

#47 Posted by Captain_Clown (150 posts) - - Show Bio

Without "writer stupidity" and "plot stupidity" it would be basically impossible to have any kind of normal superhero stories with Flash. He'd be like SA Supes, instantly solving any problem, then playing pranks on his supporting cast in his spare time

#48 Posted by Dredeuced (5855 posts) - - Show Bio

Without "writer stupidity" and "plot stupidity" it would be basically impossible to have any kind of normal superhero stories with Flash. He'd be like SA Supes, instantly solving any problem, then playing pranks on his supporting cast in his spare time

Yep, this is why Johns invented Zoom -- a character even more absurdly powerful and fast than Wally. Then he erased Wally's memory so he had to relearn his powers and could tone down his crazy feats (though he was starting to get more powerful until they did away with him to bring back Barry).

#49 Edited by nerdork (4039 posts) - - Show Bio

@ancient_0f_days: Exactly wrong? I didn’t know there were degrees of wrongness?

And, I think you have misinterpreted me. T’was only a jest. Whenever Viners ask the ambiguous questions of “WHY”, when regarding comic book characters, I only ever intend to give them a post filled with levity, rather than the longwinded, heartfelt approach.

#50 Edited by Lvenger (21239 posts) - - Show Bio

@captain_clown said:

Without "writer stupidity" and "plot stupidity" it would be basically impossible to have any kind of normal superhero stories with Flash. He'd be like SA Supes, instantly solving any problem, then playing pranks on his supporting cast in his spare time

Yep, this is why Johns invented Zoom -- a character even more absurdly powerful and fast than Wally. Then he erased Wally's memory so he had to relearn his powers and could tone down his crazy feats (though he was starting to get more powerful until they did away with him to bring back Barry).

When was this just out of interest? I'm OK on my Wally feats but not Wally's history.

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