Posted by DarthMummy (500 posts) 5 months, 15 days ago

Poll: Who should have had/should have a role in the Avengers movies? (24 votes)

Ant-Man (Hank Pym) 29%
Wasp (Janet van Dyne) 4%
Both (likely replacing Black Widow and Hawkeye) 46%
Neither 21%

I liked the Avengers as much as the next guy. There's no denying or minimizing the significance of finally seeing several solo-movie superheroes on-screen together for the first time. I was especially impressed by Mark Ruffalo's portrayal of the Hulk (both alter egos, though his action scenes were marvelous). However, I feel that the film also exemplifies a certain problem with the MCU as a whole: small world syndrome.

In his effort to make the Marvel Cinematic Universe self-contained, Joss Whedon has effectively cut out the human element of the Avengers in order to insert the plot machine that is SHIELD.

Hank Pym and Janet van Dyne were essential to the Avengers in the comics (Jan even named the team, in the beginning), and helped form a core that allowed the team to endure beyond cataclysmic situations. In the comics, the Avengers are friends that trust in each other, and Janet (often singlehandedly) facilitates that trust.

Janet's presence in the first Avengers film was cut, and now it looks as if Hank Pym's equally important role in Age of Ultron will either be minimized or cut entirely. I feel like Joss Whedon doesn't like these guys, though he seems to like a bunch of other things, among them the Maximoffs, abrasive personalities, and the Millaresque interpretation of how an Avenger operates: angry, cynical, and subservient to SHIELD, regardless of its immorality.*

SHIELD is the shoddy Superglue that holds the MCU together. The heroes that comprise the Avengers should be banding together based on something other than the intent of this organization, perhaps their own rapports with the other characters, or a basic ability to recognize world-ending threats and their abilities to stop them. Most of all the MCU should feel big. Instead, it feels cramped, as Nick Fury and the creative teams both literally and figuratively stuff the entire cast under one roof.

*Yes, several of the characters confront the somehow-irreproachable Fury with their knowledge of his plans to make new and more dangerous weapons, but:

1. The characters all ignore the larger implications of this, as they are apparently unable to conceive the possibility that a shadowy, faceless organization run by liars may not have humanity's best interests in mind.

2. Fury is utterly off the hook by the end of the movie (it happens again in Winter Soldier).

#1 Posted by Night4345 (5535 posts) - - Show Bio

I agree with everything you said. So disappointed that Hank and Janet aren't in the Avengers after watching the awesomeness of Avengers: EMH.

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#2 Posted by DarthMummy (500 posts) - - Show Bio

I agree with everything you said. So disappointed that Hank and Janet aren't in the Avengers after watching the awesomeness of Avengers: EMH.

I love that show. So much. Pity it had to end to make room for (the inferior imo) Avengers Assemble.

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#3 Posted by Pizzaman (737 posts) - - Show Bio

I was already disappointed when i heard that Ant-Man and Wasp weren't going to be in the Avengers film. I was even more disappointed when i found out that the long awaited Ant-Man film was going to star Scott Lang and not Hank Pym. Haven't heard anything about Wasp yet. That'll probably disappoint me too.

#4 Edited by Night4345 (5535 posts) - - Show Bio

@night4345 said:

I agree with everything you said. So disappointed that Hank and Janet aren't in the Avengers after watching the awesomeness of Avengers: EMH.

I love that show. So much. Pity it had to end to make room for (the inferior imo) Avengers Assemble.

Online
#5 Edited by RunawayAvenger (522 posts) - - Show Bio

Both but without replacing Hawkeye and Black Widow, I see those two as the chaperones of the team and they deserve a place on the team, especially when both were already existing in the MCU.

#6 Posted by V_Scarlotte_Rose (6516 posts) - - Show Bio

Both. I wish they could have made an Ant-Man and Wasp film with Hank and Janet instead of Iron Man 2, or at least during the period before Avengers.

I probably would have preferred things if SHIELD hadn't brought the team together too. They could have just made the Avengers film more like the first comic and had Loki make everyone think The Hulk was causing trouble to lure Thor out, which would lead to the others coming to help. With them together, the rest of the film could play out much the same if they really wanted to, with the Chitauri invasion.

Some things could have been different in this situation. Rick Jones could have been included, and he could have put out the call for help, and if Marvel had the rights, this would be a good place to put a Fantastic Four cameo, with them responding as being unavailable. Having Rick Jones involved could have helped in setting up Captain Mar-Vell, and therefore Ms. Marvel.

To be more accurate in this scenario, Captain Americas appearance would perhaps have to be limited to the post credits scene with the team finding him, and he'd start working with the team in Avengers 2, other solo films, or possibly Captain America 2.

#7 Posted by DarthMummy (500 posts) - - Show Bio

@v_scarlotte_rose: Indeed, this is one case where a lot of the trouble comes from not following the comics closely enough, especially with regards to Hank and Janet. They've been marginalized in Ultron and Ant-Man even though all source material dictates that they should be featured heavily, especially in the latter. Marvel/Disney is avoiding them for some reason.

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#8 Posted by DarthMummy (500 posts) - - Show Bio

Both but without replacing Hawkeye and Black Widow, I see those two as the chaperones of the team and they deserve a place on the team, especially when both were already existing in the MCU.

They were introduced before The Avengers because they were meant to be Avengers, not the other way around. Plus, a team with Captain America as a member shouldn't need a chaperone. The problem is that MCU Cap is too feeble to lead the team.

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#9 Posted by Ostyo (9286 posts) - - Show Bio
#10 Edited by Kairan1979 (16897 posts) - - Show Bio

Neither. Ant-Man and Wasp work only as cartoon characters.

#11 Posted by DarthMummy (500 posts) - - Show Bio

@kairan1979: How do you know? I think that they are important enough (especially to Ultron) that they should have been included, especially if there was room for Hawkeye (whose potential was mostly squandered anyway) and the Maximoffs. Also, these are ensemble movies. Pym and Wasp wouldn't be expected to carry the movie any more than Nick Fury was the first time around.

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#12 Posted by Cap10nate (2655 posts) - - Show Bio

I really would have liked to see both Hank and Janet on screen however, I don't mind excluding them simply because it would have taken a while to introduce them and their powers and their dynamic. For Hawkeye, all they needed to show is that he is an agent of SHIELD, has some history with Natasha, and is a fantastic shot with a bow to get him introduced to the crowd and Natasha was already introduced in prior movies and doesn't have powers so she is quick to introduce as well.

#13 Posted by MaccyD (4917 posts) - - Show Bio

Hawkeye barely featured in the film and Black Widow wasn't really important to the Marvel before the Avengers film.

Plus the storyline of Cap trying to reform the Avengers using former villains would have been brilliant to show on-screen (And can easily be tweaked to Whedon's preference).

#14 Posted by TheSmallvillefan12 (187 posts) - - Show Bio

Hank Pym should've have been a scientist for SHIELD in a minor role in Avengers and then been a guest star in the Agents of SHIELD tv show before having him take a major role in Age of Ultron by creating Ultron due to his experiences in said film and show. Then he becomes Ant Man to help stop his creation in Age of Ultron movie. Then you could also do a solo film after the character is established since he doesn't have the popularity that the other Avenger film character's do.