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#1 Posted by MonsterStomp (18213 posts) - - Show Bio

Wolverine

Cassandra Cain

In terms of combat speed and reflexes, who is faster?

#2 Posted by Wolverine08 (42816 posts) - - Show Bio

Hmh, I think Logan's raw combat speed is superior to that of Cassandra's (Keeping a very close pace with Spider-Man and even making him think he was faster than him), but I'd say that Cassandra likes to utilize her speed more in her fighting style than Logan does.

#3 Posted by The_Red_Viper (4167 posts) - - Show Bio

Cassandra's scary fast when moving in short bursts. Logan has that sort of animalistic speed, like a wolf, he's quick to strike and quick to dodge. If we're on the subject of animals though, Cassie reminds me more of a snake. Or a Komodo dragon =P

#4 Edited by SheenLantern (6666 posts) - - Show Bio

Wolverine; by a mile if he's bone claws.

#5 Posted by fodigg (6146 posts) - - Show Bio

Cassandra can apparently outrun bullets. Wolverine tends to barrel through them. Giving this one to Batgirl.

#6 Edited by Sebast_Allen (1515 posts) - - Show Bio

@fodigg said:

Cassandra can apparently outrun bullets. Wolverine tends to barrel through them. Giving this one to Batgirl.

Thats with regen, in many instances where regen is out his pure skill comes into play

#7 Posted by Strongarm (5857 posts) - - Show Bio

cassandra if wolve is on adamantium

wolve if no adamantium

#8 Posted by fodigg (6146 posts) - - Show Bio

@fodigg said:

Cassandra can apparently outrun bullets. Wolverine tends to barrel through them. Giving this one to Batgirl.

Thats with regen, in many instances where regen is out his pure skill comes into play

I don't see how being less durable makes him faster.

#9 Posted by Black_Claw (2997 posts) - - Show Bio

Wolverine. Hands down.

#10 Edited by Sebast_Allen (1515 posts) - - Show Bio

@fodigg said:

@sebast_allen said:

@fodigg said:

Cassandra can apparently outrun bullets. Wolverine tends to barrel through them. Giving this one to Batgirl.

Thats with regen, in many instances where regen is out his pure skill comes into play

I don't see how being less durable makes him faster.

It doesnt, it just lets him utilize the speed instead of tank

#11 Posted by fodigg (6146 posts) - - Show Bio

@fodigg said:

@sebast_allen said:

@fodigg said:

Cassandra can apparently outrun bullets. Wolverine tends to barrel through them. Giving this one to Batgirl.

Thats with regen, in many instances where regen is out his pure skill comes into play

I don't see how being less durable makes him faster.

It doesnt, it just lets him utilize the speed instead of tank

It forces him to try, yes, but it doesn't provide him with any edge. I don't see why you're assuming that given he's weighed down by a metal skeleton. Or is that out of the picture too? Because if that's the case, the examples I remember were of feral, depowered Wolverine needing training by Elektra and not being very effective even in dodging ninja throwing stars.

#12 Edited by Juiceboks (9283 posts) - - Show Bio

Both have displayed to the capacity to move faster than bullets in short bursts, but Cassie does it so often and with such little effort that I believe she edges James out in that respect.

Take into account her track record against some of DC's top fighters and I have to give my vote to her.

#13 Posted by Sebast_Allen (1515 posts) - - Show Bio

@fodigg said:

@sebast_allen said:

@fodigg said:

@sebast_allen said:

@fodigg said:

Cassandra can apparently outrun bullets. Wolverine tends to barrel through them. Giving this one to Batgirl.

Thats with regen, in many instances where regen is out his pure skill comes into play

I don't see how being less durable makes him faster.

It doesnt, it just lets him utilize the speed instead of tank

It forces him to try, yes, but it doesn't provide him with any edge. I don't see why you're assuming that given he's weighed down by a metal skeleton. Or is that out of the picture too? Because if that's the case, the examples I remember were of feral, depowered Wolverine needing training by Elektra and not being very effective even in dodging ninja throwing stars.

#14 Posted by fodigg (6146 posts) - - Show Bio

@sebast_allen: Yep, he's not where the bullets are hitting. But is this the typical "move before shooting starts" that we expect from characters or the Cass Cain literally dodging airborn bullets?

Look at her hair in the above scan. See how quickly her momentum shifts in the complete opposite direction panel to panel. That's like Flash-style speed there.

#15 Posted by Supreme_Maj (292 posts) - - Show Bio

@fodigg said:

Cassandra can apparently outrun bullets. Wolverine tends to barrel through them. Giving this one to Batgirl.

It's difficult here to say if it was because of her speed she's doing it or if it's her ability to predict her opponents attacks but still she's fast but against wolverine I don't know because him too he has shown great feat of speed if it was Laura i would give it to Laura she is faster than Cassandra but for Logan is difficult to say because of his metal bones which is heavy by the way and it means Logan need to use huge amount of strength to move so fast it's just incredible and him not dodging bullets doesn't actually mean he can't it's just that he doesn't care because it' minor to him.

#16 Posted by Juiceboks (9283 posts) - - Show Bio

@fodigg said:

Cassandra can apparently outrun bullets. Wolverine tends to barrel through them. Giving this one to Batgirl.

It's difficult here to say if it was because of her speed she's doing it or if it's her ability to predict her opponents attacks but still she's fast but against wolverine I don't know because him too he has shown great feat of speed if it was Laura i would give it to Laura she is faster than Cassandra but for Logan is difficult to say because of his metal bones which is heavy by the way and it means Logan need to use huge amount of strength to move so fast it's just incredible and him not dodging bullets doesn't actually mean he can't it's just that he doesn't care because it' minor to him.

It's her speed, she has dodge bullets literally inches from her face without even looking at the shooter..

#17 Edited by Wolverine08 (42816 posts) - - Show Bio

@fodigg:

That's like Flash-style speed there

No. And Wolverine has instances of clearly dodging gunfire mate.

#18 Posted by fodigg (6146 posts) - - Show Bio

@supreme_maj said:

@fodigg said:

Cassandra can apparently outrun bullets. Wolverine tends to barrel through them. Giving this one to Batgirl.

It's difficult here to say if it was because of her speed she's doing it or if it's her ability to predict her opponents attacks but still she's fast but against wolverine I don't know because him too he has shown great feat of speed if it was Laura i would give it to Laura she is faster than Cassandra but for Logan is difficult to say because of his metal bones which is heavy by the way and it means Logan need to use huge amount of strength to move so fast it's just incredible and him not dodging bullets doesn't actually mean he can't it's just that he doesn't care because it' minor to him.

It's her speed, she has dodge bullets literally inches from her face without even looking at the shooter..

Agreed. I used to think it was predictive, but it's clear from the scans that it's not. She sees and reacts to these bullets while they're already in the air. That means she's moving faster than the speed of sound.

#19 Posted by fodigg (6146 posts) - - Show Bio

@fodigg:

That's like Flash-style speed there

No. And Wolverine has instances of clearly dodging gunfire mate.

The difference is you don't see much of him dodging bullets that are already in the air, meters from his face before he starts to react, whereas that was Cassandra's MO.

#20 Posted by Wolverine08 (42816 posts) - - Show Bio

@fodigg said:

@wolverine08 said:

@fodigg:

That's like Flash-style speed there

No. And Wolverine has instances of clearly dodging gunfire mate.

The difference is you don't see much of him dodging bullets that are already in the air, meters from his face before he starts to react, whereas that was Cassandra's MO.

Nope. Look here. Wolverine blatantly dodges a bullet after it has been fired and Daredevil is shocked.

#21 Posted by fodigg (6146 posts) - - Show Bio

@fodigg said:

@wolverine08 said:

@fodigg:

That's like Flash-style speed there

No. And Wolverine has instances of clearly dodging gunfire mate.

The difference is you don't see much of him dodging bullets that are already in the air, meters from his face before he starts to react, whereas that was Cassandra's MO.

Nope. Look here. Wolverine blatantly dodges a bullet after it has been fired and Daredevil is shocked.

Impressive, but not Cassandra Cain impressive. You would need a sequence of the bullet ahead of him about to hit and then the panel you included. One panel of bullets or bullet strikes past/behind/around him is not the same thing.

#22 Posted by darkbeam (2303 posts) - - Show Bio

Wolverine in actual speed but Cassandra in reflexes.

#23 Posted by SheenLantern (6666 posts) - - Show Bio

@fodigg said:

Look at her hair in the above scan. See how quickly her momentum shifts in the complete opposite direction panel to panel. That's like Flash-style speed there.

This confuses me, how is that showing Flash speed?

#24 Posted by Wolverine08 (42816 posts) - - Show Bio

@fodigg said:

@wolverine08 said:

@fodigg said:

@wolverine08 said:

@fodigg:

That's like Flash-style speed there

No. And Wolverine has instances of clearly dodging gunfire mate.

The difference is you don't see much of him dodging bullets that are already in the air, meters from his face before he starts to react, whereas that was Cassandra's MO.

Nope. Look here. Wolverine blatantly dodges a bullet after it has been fired and Daredevil is shocked.

Impressive, but not Cassandra Cain impressive. You would need a sequence of the bullet ahead of him about to hit and then the panel you included. One panel of bullets or bullet strikes past/behind/around him is not the same thing.

What do you mean? You said that Wolverine hasn't dodge bullets when they were about to hit him after they have been fired, which he has done as evidence in that panel where he is able to twist at the last second so the bullet does not hit his right side. You can think Cassandra is faster if you want to even though I think his feats like making Spider-Man think he was faster than him, dodging rockets, disappearing in plain sight, etc, put him on par with her, but your statement about Wolverine not being able to dodge bullets after they were fired was incorrect and caught my attention was all.

#25 Edited by fodigg (6146 posts) - - Show Bio

@sheenlantern said:

@fodigg said:

Look at her hair in the above scan. See how quickly her momentum shifts in the complete opposite direction panel to panel. That's like Flash-style speed there.

This confuses me, how is that showing Flash speed?

Moving at the speed of sound is "Flash-like" to me. Hardly upper-limit powers of the Flash, but definitely superspeed.

@wolverine08 said:

@fodigg said:

@wolverine08 said:

@fodigg said:

@wolverine08 said:

@fodigg:

That's like Flash-style speed there

No. And Wolverine has instances of clearly dodging gunfire mate.

The difference is you don't see much of him dodging bullets that are already in the air, meters from his face before he starts to react, whereas that was Cassandra's MO.

Nope. Look here. Wolverine blatantly dodges a bullet after it has been fired and Daredevil is shocked.

Impressive, but not Cassandra Cain impressive. You would need a sequence of the bullet ahead of him about to hit and then the panel you included. One panel of bullets or bullet strikes past/behind/around him is not the same thing.

What do you mean? You said that Wolverine hasn't dodge bullets when they were about to hit him after they have been fired, which he has done as evidence in that panel where he is able to twist at the last second so the bullet does not hit his right side. You can think Cassandra is faster if you want to even though I think his feats like making Spider-Man think he was faster than him, dodging rockets, disappearing in plain sight, etc, put him on par with her, but your statement about Wolverine not being able to dodge bullets after they were fired was incorrect and caught my attention was all.

The exact point at which Wolverine starts to react is ambiguous with that scan. Is he dodging an airborne bullet or a pointed barrel? With Cassandra, we have no such ambiguity.

#26 Edited by Wolverine08 (42816 posts) - - Show Bio

@fodigg:

It's looks pretty obvious to me that the bullet had left the barrel when he twisted his body. *Shrugs* And dodging bullets after they have been fired isn't "Flash like". By that logic, Black Panther, Captain America, Wolverine, and some other street levelers are Flash like.

#27 Posted by SheenLantern (6666 posts) - - Show Bio

@fodigg said:

@sheenlantern said:

@fodigg said:

Look at her hair in the above scan. See how quickly her momentum shifts in the complete opposite direction panel to panel. That's like Flash-style speed there.

This confuses me, how is that showing Flash speed?

Moving at the speed of sound is "Flash-like" to me. Hardly upper-limit powers of the Flash, but definitely superspeed.

Flash-like speed is a billion to trillion times the speed of light.

And she's not moving at the speed of sound, don't be ridiculous.

#28 Edited by fodigg (6146 posts) - - Show Bio

@wolverine08 said:

@fodigg:

It's looks pretty obvious to me that the bullet had left the barrel when he twisted his body. *Shrugs*

Certainly that's an interpretation, but I don't think that's reflected explicitly on the page. Hence the ambiguity.

And dodging bullets after they have been fired isn't "Flash like". By that logic, Black Panther, Captain America, Wolverine, and some other street levelers are Flash like.

I haven't seen scans of those characters explicitly showing them doing what we see with Cassandra Cain.

@sheenlantern said:

@fodigg said:

@sheenlantern said:

@fodigg said:

Look at her hair in the above scan. See how quickly her momentum shifts in the complete opposite direction panel to panel. That's like Flash-style speed there.

This confuses me, how is that showing Flash speed?

Moving at the speed of sound is "Flash-like" to me. Hardly upper-limit powers of the Flash, but definitely superspeed.

Flash-like speed is a billion to trillion times the speed of light.

And she's not moving at the speed of sound, don't be ridiculous.

Flash has a pretty big range of speed. So bad on me for using an imprecise comparison, but I would hope the intention of my statement has been made clear: she's moving at super-human speed.

If she's dodging a bullet where she doesn't start reacting until it is in the air—and in fact, has her momentum going the opposite direction than where she needs to go to dodge the bullet—she is. Because that's how fast bullets are.

#29 Posted by Wolverine08 (42816 posts) - - Show Bio

@fodigg:

Captain America literally "sees" bullets in slow motion and has actually outraced them in tight rooms. That doesn't mean he is in Flash's tier.

#30 Posted by fodigg (6146 posts) - - Show Bio

@fodigg:

Captain America literally "sees" bullets in slow motion and has actually outraced them in tight rooms. That doesn't mean he is in Flash's tier.

You're talking about the "he sees faster" thing? Again, it's ambiguous what the hell that means. Certainly he has improbable deflection ability, but until we see a clear sequence in scans, the ambiguity remains.

I'm not trying to put an undue burden on you with that either. I'm aware that even Wonder Woman probably doesn't have a sequence such as what we have with Cassandra, but in that case we are given a word of god that she is deflecting bullets while they're in the air (such as in the JL episode where she remarks that Old West era weapons shoot "the slowest bullets I've ever seen"). But with Captain America we're given a strange limbo where we're told he's only "peak human" yet also described doing things that are clearly superhuman. That is similar to Cassandra Cain, but it's not made explicit on page in the same way.

#31 Posted by Wolverine08 (42816 posts) - - Show Bio

@fodigg said:

@wolverine08 said:

@fodigg:

Captain America literally "sees" bullets in slow motion and has actually outraced them in tight rooms. That doesn't mean he is in Flash's tier.

You're talking about the "he sees faster" thing? Again, it's ambiguous what the hell that means. Certainly he has improbable deflection ability, but until we see a clear sequence in scans, the ambiguity remains.

I'm not trying to put an undue burden on you with that either. I'm aware that even Wonder Woman probably doesn't have a sequence such as what we have with Cassandra, but in that case we are given a word of god that she is deflecting bullets while they're in the air (such as in the JL episode where she remarks that Old West era weapons shoot "the slowest bullets I've ever seen"). But with Captain America we're given a strange limbo where we're told he's only "peak human" yet also described doing things that are clearly superhuman. That is similar to Cassandra Cain, but it's not made explicit on page in the same way.

I don't see what was ambiguous about Steve literally saying "I see things faster". It was quite easy for me to get that he means that things moves slower for him than they would a regular human. And regarding the "peak human" debate, most official handbooks having Steve list as an "enhanced" human, and has even been noted in an official Avengers hand guide to being a physical equal to the enhanced human Black Panther. I see where the confusion lies though. You can still find handbooks from the 80s that have him listed a peak human.

#32 Edited by Lone_Wolf_and_Cub (5080 posts) - - Show Bio

Wolvie easily

#34 Posted by Wolverine08 (42816 posts) - - Show Bio

@battle_forum_junkie:

Everything, including how fast his mind perceives things, has been enhanced by the Super Soldier Serum.

Bingo.

#35 Posted by fodigg (6146 posts) - - Show Bio

@fodigg said:

@wolverine08 said:

@fodigg:

Captain America literally "sees" bullets in slow motion and has actually outraced them in tight rooms. That doesn't mean he is in Flash's tier.

You're talking about the "he sees faster" thing? Again, it's ambiguous what the hell that means. Certainly he has improbable deflection ability, but until we see a clear sequence in scans, the ambiguity remains.

I'm not trying to put an undue burden on you with that either. I'm aware that even Wonder Woman probably doesn't have a sequence such as what we have with Cassandra, but in that case we are given a word of god that she is deflecting bullets while they're in the air (such as in the JL episode where she remarks that Old West era weapons shoot "the slowest bullets I've ever seen"). But with Captain America we're given a strange limbo where we're told he's only "peak human" yet also described doing things that are clearly superhuman. That is similar to Cassandra Cain, but it's not made explicit on page in the same way.

I don't see what was ambiguous about Steve literally saying "I see things faster". It was quite easy for me to get that he means that things moves slower for him than they would a regular human. And regarding the "peak human" debate, most official handbooks having Steve list as an "enhanced" human, and has even been noted in an official Avengers hand guide to being a physical equal to the enhanced human Black Panther. I see where the confusion lies though. You can still find handbooks from the 80s that have him listed a peak human.

Right, and that's where I see Cassandra falling. In that "says she doesn't but obviously she does" like a warner brothers cartoon that doesn't fall after walking off a cliff because they don't realize they've done it. I don't have a scan on hand but this argument was also made explicit on page by two cops arguing over footage of her in combat. So "Flash-like" was obviously overstating it, but she's got some sort of superhuman speed thing.

As for Steve's statement, it's the same technical ambiguity: does he see barrels pointing, does he see bullets flying, does he move faster once they're in the air or does he just make sure he's not there when the bullet hits? I know I'm putting a high burden of proof on this but I'm doing that because I think it's odd that the Batgirl creative team went out of their way to make sure Cassandra met exactly this requirement. That was an intentional move on their part, and was unusual for a character that's supposed to be "non-meta" or whatever.

The clarification on Rogers as "enhanced" is comforting to me. If this thread was comparing Cass vs. Steve I'd probably put them on par, but not Wolverine.

#36 Edited by Wolverine08 (42816 posts) - - Show Bio

@fodigg said:

@wolverine08 said:

@fodigg said:

@wolverine08 said:

@fodigg:

Captain America literally "sees" bullets in slow motion and has actually outraced them in tight rooms. That doesn't mean he is in Flash's tier.

You're talking about the "he sees faster" thing? Again, it's ambiguous what the hell that means. Certainly he has improbable deflection ability, but until we see a clear sequence in scans, the ambiguity remains.

I'm not trying to put an undue burden on you with that either. I'm aware that even Wonder Woman probably doesn't have a sequence such as what we have with Cassandra, but in that case we are given a word of god that she is deflecting bullets while they're in the air (such as in the JL episode where she remarks that Old West era weapons shoot "the slowest bullets I've ever seen"). But with Captain America we're given a strange limbo where we're told he's only "peak human" yet also described doing things that are clearly superhuman. That is similar to Cassandra Cain, but it's not made explicit on page in the same way.

I don't see what was ambiguous about Steve literally saying "I see things faster". It was quite easy for me to get that he means that things moves slower for him than they would a regular human. And regarding the "peak human" debate, most official handbooks having Steve list as an "enhanced" human, and has even been noted in an official Avengers hand guide to being a physical equal to the enhanced human Black Panther. I see where the confusion lies though. You can still find handbooks from the 80s that have him listed a peak human.

Right, and that's where I see Cassandra falling. In that "says she doesn't but obviously she does" like a warner brothers cartoon that doesn't fall after walking off a cliff because they don't realize they've done it. I don't have a scan on hand but this argument was also made explicit on page by two cops arguing over footage of her in combat. So "Flash-like" was obviously overstating it, but she's got some sort of superhuman speed thing.

As for Steve's statement, it's the same technical ambiguity: does he see barrels pointing, does he see bullets flying, does he move faster once they're in the air or does he just make sure he's not there when the bullet hits? I know I'm putting a high burden of proof on this but I'm doing that because I think it's odd that the Batgirl creative team went out of their way to make sure Cassandra met exactly this requirement. That was an intentional move on their part, and was unusual for a character that's supposed to be "non-meta" or whatever.

The clarification on Rogers as "enhanced" is comforting to me. If this thread was comparing Cass vs. Steve I'd probably put them on par, but not Wolverine.

I do kind of find it ironic you put Steve on par with Cassandra but not Logan when Wolverine has a superior classification physically (Class 4 Low level superhuman) and Rogers is a Class 3 enhanced human. Lol.

#37 Posted by TDK_1997 (14900 posts) - - Show Bio

I'd say Logan is the faster one but in terms of raw speed.His genetics are hightened and so is his speed while Cass is faster in h2h combat and in battles while Logan doesn't use his speed that much.

#38 Edited by fodigg (6146 posts) - - Show Bio

@wolverine08 said:

@fodigg said:

@wolverine08 said:

@fodigg said:

@wolverine08 said:

@fodigg:

Captain America literally "sees" bullets in slow motion and has actually outraced them in tight rooms. That doesn't mean he is in Flash's tier.

You're talking about the "he sees faster" thing? Again, it's ambiguous what the hell that means. Certainly he has improbable deflection ability, but until we see a clear sequence in scans, the ambiguity remains.

I'm not trying to put an undue burden on you with that either. I'm aware that even Wonder Woman probably doesn't have a sequence such as what we have with Cassandra, but in that case we are given a word of god that she is deflecting bullets while they're in the air (such as in the JL episode where she remarks that Old West era weapons shoot "the slowest bullets I've ever seen"). But with Captain America we're given a strange limbo where we're told he's only "peak human" yet also described doing things that are clearly superhuman. That is similar to Cassandra Cain, but it's not made explicit on page in the same way.

I don't see what was ambiguous about Steve literally saying "I see things faster". It was quite easy for me to get that he means that things moves slower for him than they would a regular human. And regarding the "peak human" debate, most official handbooks having Steve list as an "enhanced" human, and has even been noted in an official Avengers hand guide to being a physical equal to the enhanced human Black Panther. I see where the confusion lies though. You can still find handbooks from the 80s that have him listed a peak human.

Right, and that's where I see Cassandra falling. In that "says she doesn't but obviously she does" like a warner brothers cartoon that doesn't fall after walking off a cliff because they don't realize they've done it. I don't have a scan on hand but this argument was also made explicit on page by two cops arguing over footage of her in combat. So "Flash-like" was obviously overstating it, but she's got some sort of superhuman speed thing.

As for Steve's statement, it's the same technical ambiguity: does he see barrels pointing, does he see bullets flying, does he move faster once they're in the air or does he just make sure he's not there when the bullet hits? I know I'm putting a high burden of proof on this but I'm doing that because I think it's odd that the Batgirl creative team went out of their way to make sure Cassandra met exactly this requirement. That was an intentional move on their part, and was unusual for a character that's supposed to be "non-meta" or whatever.

The clarification on Rogers as "enhanced" is comforting to me. If this thread was comparing Cass vs. Steve I'd probably put them on par, but not Wolverine.

I do kind of find it ironic you put Steve on par with Cassandra but not Logan when Wolverine has a superior classification physically (Class 4 Low level superhuman) and Rogers is a Class 3 enhanced human. Lol.

Well, what class is the superpowered Blob? Doesn't make him super-fast.

Edit: and do you think Logan would beat Rogers in a footrace? Forget the fact that Steve supposedly can run one minute miles (or whatever they said), Logan is short and weighed down by a metal skeleton. He's not a paragon of speed.

#39 Edited by Wolverine08 (42816 posts) - - Show Bio

@fodigg said:

@wolverine08 said:

@fodigg said:

@wolverine08 said:

@fodigg said:

@wolverine08 said:

@fodigg:

Captain America literally "sees" bullets in slow motion and has actually outraced them in tight rooms. That doesn't mean he is in Flash's tier.

You're talking about the "he sees faster" thing? Again, it's ambiguous what the hell that means. Certainly he has improbable deflection ability, but until we see a clear sequence in scans, the ambiguity remains.

I'm not trying to put an undue burden on you with that either. I'm aware that even Wonder Woman probably doesn't have a sequence such as what we have with Cassandra, but in that case we are given a word of god that she is deflecting bullets while they're in the air (such as in the JL episode where she remarks that Old West era weapons shoot "the slowest bullets I've ever seen"). But with Captain America we're given a strange limbo where we're told he's only "peak human" yet also described doing things that are clearly superhuman. That is similar to Cassandra Cain, but it's not made explicit on page in the same way.

I don't see what was ambiguous about Steve literally saying "I see things faster". It was quite easy for me to get that he means that things moves slower for him than they would a regular human. And regarding the "peak human" debate, most official handbooks having Steve list as an "enhanced" human, and has even been noted in an official Avengers hand guide to being a physical equal to the enhanced human Black Panther. I see where the confusion lies though. You can still find handbooks from the 80s that have him listed a peak human.

Right, and that's where I see Cassandra falling. In that "says she doesn't but obviously she does" like a warner brothers cartoon that doesn't fall after walking off a cliff because they don't realize they've done it. I don't have a scan on hand but this argument was also made explicit on page by two cops arguing over footage of her in combat. So "Flash-like" was obviously overstating it, but she's got some sort of superhuman speed thing.

As for Steve's statement, it's the same technical ambiguity: does he see barrels pointing, does he see bullets flying, does he move faster once they're in the air or does he just make sure he's not there when the bullet hits? I know I'm putting a high burden of proof on this but I'm doing that because I think it's odd that the Batgirl creative team went out of their way to make sure Cassandra met exactly this requirement. That was an intentional move on their part, and was unusual for a character that's supposed to be "non-meta" or whatever.

The clarification on Rogers as "enhanced" is comforting to me. If this thread was comparing Cass vs. Steve I'd probably put them on par, but not Wolverine.

I do kind of find it ironic you put Steve on par with Cassandra but not Logan when Wolverine has a superior classification physically (Class 4 Low level superhuman) and Rogers is a Class 3 enhanced human. Lol.

Well, what class is the superpowered Blob? Doesn't make him super-fast.

Edit: and do you think Logan would beat Rogers in a footrace? Forget the fact that Steve supposedly can run one minute miles (or whatever they said), Logan is short and weighed down by a metal skeleton. He's not a paragon of speed.

Knowing well enough about both Wolverine and Captain America, yeah, I'd say Logan beats Steve in a foot race. The adamantium skeleton has never been showing to explicitly effect him seeing as how with it on him, he's moved fast enough to keep up with Spider-Man and even make him contemplate Logan being faster than him. And has done other things like blatantly disappeared right in front of Nuke and Nightcrawler on separate occasions, dodged bullets after they have been fired, disemboweled a group of ninja before they could even pull out their swords, cut up multiple guns before several men's vision could register his movement. Plain and simple, he's fast and the skeleton has never effected him. Steve's raw reaction might be better due to his enhanced brain though.

#40 Posted by fodigg (6146 posts) - - Show Bio

@fodigg said:

Well, what class is the superpowered Blob? Doesn't make him super-fast.

Edit: and do you think Logan would beat Rogers in a footrace? Forget the fact that Steve supposedly can run one minute miles (or whatever they said), Logan is short and weighed down by a metal skeleton. He's not a paragon of speed.

Knowing well enough about both Wolverine and Captain America, yeah, I'd say Logan beats Steve in a foot race. The adamantium skeleton has never been showing to explicitly effect him seeing as how with it on him, he's moved fast enough to keep up with Spider-Man and even make him contemplate Logan being faster than him. And has done other things like blatantly disappeared right in front of Nuke and Nightcrawler on separate occasions, dodged bullets after they have been fired, disemboweled a group of ninja before they could even pull out their swords, cut up multiple guns before several men's vision could register his movement. Plain and simple, he's fast and the skeleton has never effected him. Steve's raw reaction might be better due to his enhanced brain though.

It's always interesting when characters can dodge bullets but not punches. Just a convention of the format/genre I suppose.

#41 Edited by Wolverine08 (42816 posts) - - Show Bio

@fodigg said:

@wolverine08 said:

@fodigg said:

Well, what class is the superpowered Blob? Doesn't make him super-fast.

Edit: and do you think Logan would beat Rogers in a footrace? Forget the fact that Steve supposedly can run one minute miles (or whatever they said), Logan is short and weighed down by a metal skeleton. He's not a paragon of speed.

Knowing well enough about both Wolverine and Captain America, yeah, I'd say Logan beats Steve in a foot race. The adamantium skeleton has never been showing to explicitly effect him seeing as how with it on him, he's moved fast enough to keep up with Spider-Man and even make him contemplate Logan being faster than him. And has done other things like blatantly disappeared right in front of Nuke and Nightcrawler on separate occasions, dodged bullets after they have been fired, disemboweled a group of ninja before they could even pull out their swords, cut up multiple guns before several men's vision could register his movement. Plain and simple, he's fast and the skeleton has never effected him. Steve's raw reaction might be better due to his enhanced brain though.

It's always interesting when characters can dodge bullets but not punches. Just a convention of the format/genre I suppose.

Comics. LMAO!

#42 Posted by Sebast_Allen (1515 posts) - - Show Bio

#43 Posted by WaveMotionCannon (5465 posts) - - Show Bio

Wolverine is faster but Cassie uses her speed much more effectively.

#44 Edited by MideonNViscera (367 posts) - - Show Bio

I think the answer is always Wolverine.

#45 Posted by ownagepants (4656 posts) - - Show Bio

Wolverine he is a mutant who's abilities make him naturally quicker then a human.

#46 Posted by RogueShadow (10863 posts) - - Show Bio

Wolverine, by far.

#47 Posted by DareHulk (216 posts) - - Show Bio

Logan by far.

#48 Posted by patrat18 (9813 posts) - - Show Bio

cassandra if wolve is on adamantium

wolve if no adamantium

#49 Posted by Tracy (155 posts) - - Show Bio

@fodigg: It's a toss up really on who is faster, by stats Logan should be faster because he is classified to have some form of super human speed while Cass is classified to be peak level. But like I said, it is a toss up between the two because she is shown to dodge gun fire after the bullets have left the barrel.

Logan does have his fair shots of speed feats, like this one:

#50 Posted by bob808 (6778 posts) - - Show Bio

Wolverine