#1 Edited by RideASpaceCowboy (539 posts) - - Show Bio

If you had been in charge of selecting the ongoings that would be part of the first wave of the New 52, which fifty-two titles would you have selected? Feel free to draw inspiration from the titles that were actually selected, or to propose continuations of elements from the pre-Flashpoint universe. My choices are...

  1. Action comics (featuring the Superman family, including: Superman, Superboy, Supergirl, Steel, etc.)
  2. Adventure Comics (the teenage years of Clark Kent; not affiliated with the Smallville television show)
  3. All Flash comics (featuring the Flash Family, including: Jay Garrick, Barry Allan, Wally West, Bart Allan)
  4. All Star comics (the Justice Society circa World War II)
  5. Aquaman
  6. The Authority (with a straight Apollo and Midnighter)
  7. Batgirl and the Birds of Prey (featuring Barbra Gordon, Huntress, Spoiler, and Black Canary)
  8. Batman
  9. Batman and Robin (Dick Grayson and Damien Wayne)
  10. Batman, Inc.
  11. Brave and the Bold (featuring Hal Jordan and Barry Allan)
  12. Charlton comics (Dan Garret, Captain Atom, the Question, Peacemaker, Nightshade, Thunderbolt)
  13. Dark Knight / Boy Wonder (continuing Frank Miller and Jim Lee's All-Star Batman and Robin, the Boy Wonder, now canon)
  14. Denizens (a look at a world of superheroes through the eyes of ordinary individuals like Jimmy Olsen and Lucy Lane)
  15. Detective comics (featuring the Batman family, including: Bruce Wayne, Dick Grayson, Jason Todd, Tim Drake, Damien Wayne, and Barbra Gordon)
  16. Firestorm (Ronnie Raymond / Prof. Stein)
  17. Flash (Barry Allan)
  18. Flex Mentallo
  19. Green Arrow (with the Van Dyke)
  20. Gotham PD (a nior crime comic)
  21. Green Lantern (Hal Jordan)
  22. Green Lantern Corps (featuring Guy Gardner, Jon Stewart, Kyle Ryner, Simon Baz, Kilowag, Ganthet, etc.)
  23. Green Lantern / Green Arrow (Hal Jordan and Oliver Queen traveling across America confronting social ills)
  24. Hawkman
  25. Justice League (Superman, Batman, Wonder Woman, Hal Jordan, Barry Allan, Martian Manhunter, Aquaman)
  26. Justice League of America (Green Arrow, Hawkman, Atom, Ted Kord, Booster Gold)
  27. Justice Society (Jay Garrick, straight Alan Scott, Atom Smasher, Dr. Fate, Stargirl)
  28. Krypton (Jor-El, Lara, Zod, Zor-El, Alura, Kara)
  29. Lois and Clark (not based off the television show; recaptures the classic stories of Lois pining for Superman and ignoring Clark/trying to prove he's Superman)
  30. Metropolis SCU (a sci-fi proceedural)
  31. Milestone comics (featuring Icon, Rocket, Static, Hardware, and other Milestone characters)
  32. More Fun comics (similar to JL8, Tiny Titans, or Superman Family Adventures)
  33. Multiversity
  34. New gods
  35. The Others (Aquaman, Ya'wara, the Operative, Prisoner of War, Kahina the Seer, Vostok)
  36. Planetary
  37. Red Hood and Scarlet
  38. Sensational comics (featuring the Wonder Woman family, including: Diana, Donna Troy, Cassie, Hyppolita, the Amazons)
  39. Shadow Pack (Zatana, Constantine, Specter, Deadman, others)
  40. Shazam
  41. Showcase comics (featuring the various Lantern Corps)
  42. Super Young Team (from Final Crisis)
  43. Superboy and the Legion of Super-Heroes (Kon-El, Lightning Lad, Cosmic Boy, Saturn Girl, Braniac 5)
  44. Superman
  45. Superman Squadron
  46. Teen Titans (Cyborg, Starfire, Beast Boy, Wally West, Roy Harper, Donna Troy, Dick Grayson, Jackson Hyde)
  47. Trinity (Superman, Batman, Wonder Woman)
  48. Uncle Sam and the Freedom Fighters
  49. Wildstorm (featuring Grifter, Fairchild, and other Wildstorm characters)
  50. Wonder Woman
  51. Worlds Finest (Superman and Batman)
  52. Young Justice (Kon-El, Tim Drake, Wonder Girl, Bart Allan, Artemiss)
#2 Posted by Stormbox (2001 posts) - - Show Bio

@RideASpaceCowboy said:

  1. The Authority (with a straight Apollo and Midnighter)
  2. Dark Knight / Boy Wonder (continuing Frank Miller and Jim Lee's All-Star Batman and Robin, the Boy Wonder, now canon)

Please go get banned

#3 Posted by Dark_Vengeance_ (15132 posts) - - Show Bio

@Stormbox said:

@RideASpaceCowboy said:

  1. The Authority (with a straight Apollo and Midnighter)
  2. Dark Knight / Boy Wonder (continuing Frank Miller and Jim Lee's All-Star Batman and Robin, the Boy Wonder, now canon)

Please go get banned

Please, they are gay, let them be.

And as for the sequel I kind of want to read it. It was offensive but it was also hilarious.

#4 Posted by V_Scarlotte_Rose (6544 posts) - - Show Bio

@DarkKnightDetective said:

@Stormbox said:

@RideASpaceCowboy said:

  1. The Authority (with a straight Apollo and Midnighter)
  2. Dark Knight / Boy Wonder (continuing Frank Miller and Jim Lee's All-Star Batman and Robin, the Boy Wonder, now canon)

Please go get banned

Please, they are gay, let them be.

And as for the sequel I kind of want to read it. It was offensive but it was also hilarious.

What was offensive about it? I haven't read it, so I don't know.

#5 Posted by Stormbox (2001 posts) - - Show Bio

@DarkKnightDetective said:

@Stormbox said:

@RideASpaceCowboy said:

  1. The Authority (with a straight Apollo and Midnighter)
  2. Dark Knight / Boy Wonder (continuing Frank Miller and Jim Lee's All-Star Batman and Robin, the Boy Wonder, now canon)

Please go get banned

Please, they are gay, let them be.

And as for the sequel I kind of want to read it. It was offensive but it was also hilarious.

About apollo and midnighter, are you talking to the op or me?

And about asbar, i wouldnt care about a sequel, if dc wants to waste resources let them be, but this guy wants that story to be canon, which is dumb as hell

#6 Posted by Dark_Vengeance_ (15132 posts) - - Show Bio

@Stormbox: I was talking to the op, and as for asbar go read it as if it was a comedy and you will find it more entretaining,

#7 Posted by Stormbox (2001 posts) - - Show Bio

@V_Scarlotte_Rose said:

@DarkKnightDetective said:

@Stormbox said:

@RideASpaceCowboy said:

  1. The Authority (with a straight Apollo and Midnighter)
  2. Dark Knight / Boy Wonder (continuing Frank Miller and Jim Lee's All-Star Batman and Robin, the Boy Wonder, now canon)

Please go get banned

Please, they are gay, let them be.

And as for the sequel I kind of want to read it. It was offensive but it was also hilarious.

What was offensive about it? I haven't read it, so I don't know.

It was full of sexist fanservice, the justice league is a bunch of psychos (wonder woman) and idiots (everyone else), and batman is a psychopath who kills cops and makes robin eat rats

The art was great tho

#8 Posted by Stormbox (2001 posts) - - Show Bio

@DarkKnightDetective: oh ok, since you quoted me that kinda confused me

I dont mind asbar as a non canon story but if dc made it canon i would have to murder someone

Much like frank miller himself, i dont mind his sh!tty opinions but if he's somewhere near me i have a taser and some boxing training

#9 Edited by Dark_Vengeance_ (15132 posts) - - Show Bio

@Stormbox: I'm kind of like that but with Joel Schumacher.

#10 Posted by Stormbox (2001 posts) - - Show Bio

@DarkKnightDetective: ah yes schumacher, the reason i have some rocks in my pocket all the time just in case

#11 Posted by Dark_Vengeance_ (15132 posts) - - Show Bio

@Stormbox: The reason why we have nightmares.

#12 Posted by V_Scarlotte_Rose (6544 posts) - - Show Bio

@Stormbox said:

@V_Scarlotte_Rose said:

@DarkKnightDetective said:

@Stormbox said:

@RideASpaceCowboy said:

  1. The Authority (with a straight Apollo and Midnighter)
  2. Dark Knight / Boy Wonder (continuing Frank Miller and Jim Lee's All-Star Batman and Robin, the Boy Wonder, now canon)

Please go get banned

Please, they are gay, let them be.

And as for the sequel I kind of want to read it. It was offensive but it was also hilarious.

What was offensive about it? I haven't read it, so I don't know.

It was full of sexist fanservice, the justice league is a bunch of psychos (wonder woman) and idiots (everyone else), and batman is a psychopath who kills cops and makes robin eat rats

The art was great tho

Oh. That sounds weird.

#13 Posted by Jonny_Anonymous (35159 posts) - - Show Bio

@RideASpaceCowboy: Why the hell would you want Apollo and Midnighter to be straight? They where created to be gay in the first place.

#14 Posted by Stormbox (2001 posts) - - Show Bio

@V_Scarlotte_Rose: oddly enough the wierdest part to me was that the joker had a dragon tattoo on his back

#15 Posted by V_Scarlotte_Rose (6544 posts) - - Show Bio

@Stormbox said:

@V_Scarlotte_Rose: oddly enough the wierdest part to me was that the joker had a dragon tattoo on his back

Was that an important part of it? Like, did they explain why he had it?

#16 Edited by RideASpaceCowboy (539 posts) - - Show Bio

@Jonny_Anonymous said:

@RideASpaceCowboy: Why the hell would you want Apollo and Midnighter to be straight? They where created to be gay in the first place.

I don't need every character to subscribe to the same moral code that I do (for example, I love the Punisher), but where they diverge I prefer their moral failings to be a point of contention and criticism, an acknowledged character flaw which the writer employs to create pathos and interesting stories. Homosexual characters are rarely portrayed as such; rather, they are written to advance an agenda seeking to normalize the acceptance of homosexual behavior. I'd have no problem with a homosexual, necrophiliac, infantophile, or any other sexual deviant written as trying to overcome his deviancy, or even an ardent deviant portrayed negatively for his remorseless behavior.

However, I realize that I'm in the minority on these forums in respect to the homosexuality issue, and instead of derailing this topic as a result, would seek to return the subject to what titles others would have picked for the New 52. Many of you don't agree with some of the decisions I would have made had I been in charge, but which decisions would you have made?

#17 Posted by V_Scarlotte_Rose (6544 posts) - - Show Bio

@RideASpaceCowboy said:

@Jonny_Anonymous said:

@RideASpaceCowboy: Why the hell would you want Apollo and Midnighter to be straight? They where created to be gay in the first place.

I don't need every character to subscribe to the same moral code that I do (for example, I love the Punisher), but where they diverge I prefer their moral failings to be a point of contention and criticism, an acknowledged character flaw instead which the writer employs to create pathos and interesting stories. Homosexual characters are rarely portrayed as such; rather, they are writen to advance an agenda seeking to normalize the acceptance of homosexual behavior. I'd have no problem with a homosexual, necrophiliac, infantophile, or any other sexual deviant written as trying to overcome his deviancy, or even an ardent deviant portrayed negatively for his remorseless behavior.

However, I realize that I'm in the minority on these forums in respect to the homosexuality issue, and instead of derailing this topic as a result, would seek to return the subject to what titles others would have picked for the New 52. Many of you don't agree with some of the decisions I would have made had I been in charge, but which decisions would you have made?

I think describing homosexuality as a sexual deviance comparable to necrophilia and infantophile probably breaks this rule:

"4. Don't Use Slurs Against Someone's (Supposed) Race, Creed, Religion, Sexual Orientation, Etc.

Using terms that fall under these makes you seem especially ignorant, and well, boring... we've heard it all before so don't bother with it... The community here at the Vine is diverse. That said, everyone will be treated with respect, regardless of skin color, age, creed, religion, sexual orientation, gender and the like.

An infraction of this rule is an automatic (permanent) ban."

Can any mods confirm if I'm right?

#18 Edited by RideASpaceCowboy (539 posts) - - Show Bio

@V_Scarlotte_Rose said:

@RideASpaceCowboy said:

@Jonny_Anonymous said:

@RideASpaceCowboy: Why the hell would you want Apollo and Midnighter to be straight? They where created to be gay in the first place.

I don't need every character to subscribe to the same moral code that I do (for example, I love the Punisher), but where they diverge I prefer their moral failings to be a point of contention and criticism, an acknowledged character flaw instead which the writer employs to create pathos and interesting stories. Homosexual characters are rarely portrayed as such; rather, they are writen to advance an agenda seeking to normalize the acceptance of homosexual behavior. I'd have no problem with a homosexual, necrophiliac, infantophile, or any other sexual deviant written as trying to overcome his deviancy, or even an ardent deviant portrayed negatively for his remorseless behavior.

However, I realize that I'm in the minority on these forums in respect to the homosexuality issue, and instead of derailing this topic as a result, would seek to return the subject to what titles others would have picked for the New 52. Many of you don't agree with some of the decisions I would have made had I been in charge, but which decisions would you have made?

I think describing homosexuality as a sexual deviance comparable to necrophilia and infantophile probably breaks this rule:

"4. Don't Use Slurs Against Someone's (Supposed) Race, Creed, Religion, Sexual Orientation, Etc.

Using terms that fall under these makes you seem especially ignorant, and well, boring... we've heard it all before so don't bother with it... The community here at the Vine is diverse. That said, everyone will be treated with respect, regardless of skin color, age, creed, religion, sexual orientation, gender and the like.

An infraction of this rule is an automatic (permanent) ban."

Can any mods confirm if I'm right?

I was in no way spewing hateful vitriol; at no point did I attack another forum member using words which begin with an "f" or a "g" which would be a violation of the rules. Rather, I was articulating a moral and political belief that I and billions of other individuals subscribe to, particularly in regards to how it informs my comic reading experience.

#19 Posted by FalconPuuunch (942 posts) - - Show Bio

@RideASpaceCowboy said:

  1. Adventure Comics (the teenage years of Clark Kent; not affiliated with the Smallville television show)
  2. Charlton comics (Dan Garret, Captain Atom, the Question, Peacemaker, Nightshade, Thunderbolt)
  3. Dark Knight / Boy Wonder (continuing Frank Miller and Jim Lee's All-Star Batman and Robin, the Boy Wonder, now canon)
  4. Detective comics (featuring the Batman family, including: Bruce Wayne, Dick Grayson, Jason Todd, Tim Drake, Damien Wayne, and Barbra Gordon)
  5. Gotham PD (a nior crime comic)
  6. Lois and Clark (not based off the television show; recaptures the classic stories of Lois pining for Superman and ignoring Clark/trying to prove he's Superman)
  7. Red Hood and Scarlet
  8. Shadow Pack (Zatana, Constantine, Specter, Deadman, others)
  9. Teen Titans (Cyborg, Starfire, Beast Boy, Wally West, Roy Harper, Donna Troy, Dick Grayson, Jackson Hyde)
  10. Wildstorm (featuring Grifter, Fairchild, and other Wildstorm characters)
  11. Worlds Finest (Superman and Batman)

I would choose these

#20 Posted by V_Scarlotte_Rose (6544 posts) - - Show Bio

Sorry to bother you, but I see that you're a moderator who's online. Does describing homosexuality as a sexual deviance comparable to necrophilia and infantophile break Rule 4, As has done?

"4. Don't Use Slurs Against Someone's (Supposed) Race, Creed, Religion, Sexual Orientation, Etc.

Using terms that fall under these makes you seem especially ignorant, and well, boring... we've heard it all before so don't bother with it... The community here at the Vine is diverse. That said, everyone will be treated with respect, regardless of skin color, age, creed, religion, sexual orientation, gender and the like.

An infraction of this rule is an automatic (permanent) ban."

#21 Posted by VaizD (248 posts) - - Show Bio

@V_Scarlotte_Rose said:

@Stormbox said:

@V_Scarlotte_Rose: oddly enough the wierdest part to me was that the joker had a dragon tattoo on his back

Was that an important part of it? Like, did they explain why he had it?

It was never really explained. The title went on permanent hiatus before its version of The Joker got much play. He strangled some woman and then beat up Catwoman, and that's about it. It's implied he's a bit less uh... mirthful, than his mainstream counterpart, and that the 'Joker' moniker is somewhat ironic/sarcastic. Still freakin insane, though.

#22 Posted by V_Scarlotte_Rose (6544 posts) - - Show Bio

@VaizD said:

@V_Scarlotte_Rose said:

@Stormbox said:

@V_Scarlotte_Rose: oddly enough the wierdest part to me was that the joker had a dragon tattoo on his back

Was that an important part of it? Like, did they explain why he had it?

It was never really explained. The title went on permanent hiatus before its version of The Joker got much play. He strangled some woman and then beat up Catwoman, and that's about it. It's implied he's a bit less uh... mirthful, than his mainstream counterpart, and that the 'Joker' moniker is somewhat ironic/sarcastic. Still freakin insane, though.

Fair enough. I suppose a tattoo can just be for decoration and not really mean anything sometimes anyway.

#23 Posted by jloneblackheart (5490 posts) - - Show Bio

@RideASpaceCowboy: Comparing homosexuality to necrophilia and infantophiles is like comparing vegans to cannibals, and yes it can be seen as offensive to others to be compared to the criminal and the deranged. I will also point out that those "billions" of others are mostly in strictly religious, oppressive or uneducated societies. If you want to voice your opinions, right or wrong, feel free to do so as long as you aren't being this directly offensive.

Moderator
#24 Posted by JamesKM716 (1995 posts) - - Show Bio

1. Action Comics

2. Superman

3. Man of Steel

4. Supergirl

5. Batman

6. Batgirl

7. Batman and Robin

8. Batman Brotherhood (Tim stars and teams up with different Bat Family members for different arcs)

9. Red Hood

10. Nightwing

11. Robin

12. Birds of Prey

13. Detective Comics (Set 5 years in the Past)

14. The Flash

15. Green Lantern

16. Green Lantern Corps

17. Blue Lanterns (Starring Kyle)

18. Martian Manhunter

19. Catwoman

20. Animal Man

21. Swamp Thing

22. Aquaman

23. Hawkman

24. Earth 2

25. Superman/Batman

26. Team 7

27. Stormwatch

28. Static Shock

29. Justice League

30. Justice League of America

31. Justice League International

32. Wonder Woman

33. Teen Titans

34. The Outsiders

35. DC Presents

36. Demon Knights

37. Deathstroke

38. Constantine

39. Young Justice

40. Green Arrow

41. Secret Six

42. Suicide Squad

43. Icon

44. Hardware

45. Jonah Hex

46. Justice League Dark

47. World's Finest

48. Cyborg

49. Blue Beetle

50. Amazon (Five Years in the Past)

51. Midnighter

52. Justice Society

#25 Edited by colonyofcells (2038 posts) - - Show Bio

batman and robin, batman and nightwing, batman and red hood, batman and red robin, batman and batgirl, batman and batwoman, batman and outsiders, batman and superman, batman and friend, batman and friends, batman and alfred, batman and catwoman, batman inc, batman inc batwing, batman and the justice league, batman and stormwatch, adventures of batman when he was a boy, batman and homosexuals, batman and the fundamentalists, batman and muslims, batman and vibe, etc.

#26 Posted by lightsout (1836 posts) - - Show Bio

@colonyofcells said:

batman and robin, batman and nightwing, batman and red hood, batman and red robin, batman and batgirl, batman and batwoman, batman and outsiders, batman and superman, batman and friend, batman and friends, batman and alfred, batman and catwoman, batman inc, batman inc batwing, batman and the justice league, batman and stormwatch, adventures of batman when he was a boy, batman and homosexuals, batman and the fundamentalists, batman and muslims, batman and vibe, etc.

Only if it's old offensive 80's Vibe. I want to see Bats get sick and tired of his break-dancing antics & constant giving of "lip".

#27 Edited by colonyofcells (2038 posts) - - Show Bio

For a reboot universe, I would give some explanation for the presence of human looking aliens on earth by saying all humanoid aliens and humans are related and the various planets are linked by star gates created by the United Planets for easy travel between planets. I would reboot the Legion into the 21st century so there will be more human looking aliens playing superhero on earth. Dc also needs more teams to compete with Marvel. JL will be the main group independent of the governments. United Nations will have many superhero teams like JLI, Global Guardians, Blackhawks, Stormwatch, checkmate. America will have its own superhero teams like team 7, suicide squad, Shade, freedom fighters, meta marines, black razors, easy company, jla, wildcats, wetworks, etc. More independent teams like dark mages, birds of prey, outsiders, outlaws, Magog's team, Captain Atom's team, Apollo's Authority, Batman inc, Green Arrow's team, Justice Society, gen 13, planetary, shadow cabinet, blood syndicate, doom patrol, metal men similar to Engineer of stormwatch. Lex Luthor corporation will also have its own team like Infinity Inc. Biotech corporations can have its own team Helix. Villain teams like secret society, crime syndicate of main earth.

#28 Posted by RideASpaceCowboy (539 posts) - - Show Bio

@jloneblackheart said:

@RideASpaceCowboy: Comparing homosexuality to necrophilia and infantophiles is like comparing vegans to cannibals, and yes it can be seen as offensive to others to be compared to the criminal and the deranged. I will also point out that those "billions" of others are mostly in strictly religious, oppressive or uneducated societies. If you want to voice your opinions, right or wrong, feel free to do so as long as you aren't being this directly offensive.

I could just as easily take offence at the implicit association of honestly held religious belief with oppression and ignorance which you seem to make in your post. But just as you almost certainly intended no offence, neither did I intend to offend with my comments. However, there are many who claim to be offended merely by the fact that I hold the beliefs that I do and would wish to censor me and others like me from expressing such opinions ever, regardless of the neutrality of the language in which we do so.

The initial complaints were not to my labeling of homosexuality as a deviancy, but rather merely to my statement that I'd prefer characters such as Apollo, Midnighter, and Alan Scott to be written as straight. For this there were some calling for me to be banned. I may disagree with the beliefs of those individuals, but they oppose the right for me to even have my beliefs and still be a member of the Comic Vine community. I'm not calling for them to be banned (they broke no rules, just as I did not), but I would expect them to show me the same level of tolerance which I show to them.

#29 Posted by FalconPuuunch (942 posts) - - Show Bio

@V_Scarlotte_Rose said:

@Stormbox said:

@V_Scarlotte_Rose said:

@DarkKnightDetective said:

@Stormbox said:

@RideASpaceCowboy said:

  1. The Authority (with a straight Apollo and Midnighter)
  2. Dark Knight / Boy Wonder (continuing Frank Miller and Jim Lee's All-Star Batman and Robin, the Boy Wonder, now canon)

Please go get banned

Please, they are gay, let them be.

And as for the sequel I kind of want to read it. It was offensive but it was also hilarious.

What was offensive about it? I haven't read it, so I don't know.

It was full of sexist fanservice, the justice league is a bunch of psychos (wonder woman) and idiots (everyone else), and batman is a psychopath who kills cops and makes robin eat rats

The art was great tho

Oh. That sounds weird.

I liked Batman and Robin. Was pretty dark and awesome.

#30 Edited by colonyofcells (2038 posts) - - Show Bio

I am ok with a new main earth Alan Scott being straight like in pre-flashpoint. Not sure how to redo the new origin of a main earth Alan Scott but maybe tie it to the magic corps of planet Zerox where Mordru comes from. Apollo and Midnighter have a longer history of being in a gay relationship so probably a bit too late to reboot that one.

#31 Posted by skooks (205 posts) - - Show Bio

@RideASpaceCowboy said:

@Jonny_Anonymous said:

@RideASpaceCowboy: Why the hell would you want Apollo and Midnighter to be straight? They where created to be gay in the first place.

I don't need every character to subscribe to the same moral code that I do (for example, I love the Punisher), but where they diverge I prefer their moral failings to be a point of contention and criticism, an acknowledged character flaw which the writer employs to create pathos and interesting stories. Homosexual characters are rarely portrayed as such; rather, they are written to advance an agenda seeking to normalize the acceptance of homosexual behavior. I'd have no problem with a homosexual, necrophiliac, infantophile, or any other sexual deviant written as trying to overcome his deviancy, or even an ardent deviant portrayed negatively for his remorseless behavior.

However, I realize that I'm in the minority on these forums in respect to the homosexuality issue, and instead of derailing this topic as a result, would seek to return the subject to what titles others would have picked for the New 52. Many of you don't agree with some of the decisions I would have made had I been in charge, but which decisions would you have made?

Putting homosexuals in the same category as necrophiliacs is very offensive and upsetting. This isn't the first time I've seen you say something spiteful in regards to homosexuality, and I'm sure it won't be the last. Your vitriol is showing, despite what you may say.

#32 Posted by Avenging-X-Bolt (13699 posts) - - Show Bio

duplicate thread

http://www.comicvine.com/myvine/liberty/dc-comics-52-what-is-yours/87-70062/

#33 Posted by CampodelViolin (168 posts) - - Show Bio

@RideASpaceCowboy said:

@jloneblackheart said:

@RideASpaceCowboy: Comparing homosexuality to necrophilia and infantophiles is like comparing vegans to cannibals, and yes it can be seen as offensive to others to be compared to the criminal and the deranged. I will also point out that those "billions" of others are mostly in strictly religious, oppressive or uneducated societies. If you want to voice your opinions, right or wrong, feel free to do so as long as you aren't being this directly offensive.

I could just as easily take offence at the implicit association of honestly held religious belief with oppression and ignorance which you seem to make in your post. But just as you almost certainly intended no offence, neither did I intend to offend with my comments. However, there are many who claim to be offended merely by tif you want to be respected, you have to accept when you make a mistakee fact that I hold the beliefs that I do and would wish to censor me and others like me from expressing such opinions ever, regardless of the neutrality of the language in which we do so.

The initial complaints were not to my labeling of homosexuality as a deviancy, but rather merely to my statement that I'd prefer characters such as Apollo, Midnighter, and Alan Scott to be written as straight. For this there were some calling for me to be banned. I may disagree with the beliefs of those individuals, but they oppose the right for me to even have my beliefs and still be a member of the Comic Vine community. I'm not calling for them to be banned (they broke no rules, just as I did not), but I would expect them to show me the same level of tolerance which I show to them.

My English is not that good to make a sophistacated comment about this, but obviusly you are trying to use falacy to defend yourself, trying to turn aside the comments around your idea of these characters beign straight, rather than accepting that you make some offensive comparisons about homosexuality.

#34 Posted by RideASpaceCowboy (539 posts) - - Show Bio

@CampodelViolin said:

@RideASpaceCowboy said:

@jloneblackheart said:

@RideASpaceCowboy: Comparing homosexuality to necrophilia and infantophiles is like comparing vegans to cannibals, and yes it can be seen as offensive to others to be compared to the criminal and the deranged. I will also point out that those "billions" of others are mostly in strictly religious, oppressive or uneducated societies. If you want to voice your opinions, right or wrong, feel free to do so as long as you aren't being this directly offensive.

I could just as easily take offence at the implicit association of honestly held religious belief with oppression and ignorance which you seem to make in your post. But just as you almost certainly intended no offence, neither did I intend to offend with my comments. However, there are many who claim to be offended merely by the fact that I hold the beliefs that I do and would wish to censor me and others like me from expressing such opinions ever, regardless of the neutrality of the language in which we do so.

The initial complaints were not to my labeling of homosexuality as a deviancy, but rather merely to my statement that I'd prefer characters such as Apollo, Midnighter, and Alan Scott to be written as straight. For this there were some calling for me to be banned. I may disagree with the beliefs of those individuals, but they oppose the right for me to even have my beliefs and still be a member of the Comic Vine community. I'm not calling for them to be banned (they broke no rules, just as I did not), but I would expect them to show me the same level of tolerance which I show to them.

My English is not that good to make a sophistacated comment about this, but obviusly you are trying to use falacy to defend yourself, trying to turn aside the comments around your idea of these characters beign straight, rather than accepting that you make some offensive comparisons about homosexuality.

My point was that no statement is intrinsically offensive, but rather offence is in the eye of the beholder. Someone might make statements I find offensive, or I might make statements someone else finds offensive, but the statements themselves are not offensive in and of themselves. The only difference is that the current zeitgeist finds my statements less popular than those on the other side of the issue. But just because my statements are unpopular doesn't mean I should be treated with disrespect. I show others the same respect I would have them show me, and ask only that others do likewise.

#35 Posted by Xanni15 (6758 posts) - - Show Bio

Aquaman for sure.

#36 Posted by satyrgod (2115 posts) - - Show Bio
@RideASpaceCowboy
I find your statements regarding alternative lifestyles curious, especially considering the implications of your username.  You state that you intend no offense, but you compare homosex with egregiously socially and morally unacceptable predilections.  I would respectifully suggest that you refrain from even trying to discuss subjects about which you obviously know very little.
 
As far as straight and gay characters, what difference does it make?  What is it to you whether a character who previously self-identified as straight realizes that he is otherwise?  Comic books deal with alternate realities on a fairly frequent basis, and the authors switch up the dynamics regularly.  And gay youth needs gay heroes; they need to see that there are others like them and that they are not alone.  We can each set a positive example and lead exemplary lives; talking ill of those you don't understand and to whom you cannot directly relate benefits no one.
#37 Posted by RazzaTazz (8968 posts) - - Show Bio

@RideASpaceCowboy said:

I'd have no problem with a homosexual, necrophiliac, infantophile, or any other sexual deviant written as trying to overcome his deviancy, or even an ardent deviant portrayed negatively for his remorseless behavior.

The acceptance of homosexuality as a lifestyle is not required of every human, but the comparison of such a lifestyle is not comparable to the others that you have listed. Homosexuality is not sexual deviancy anymore than heterosexuality is. You will have a hard (and presumably short) presence on these forums if you keep it up with this viewpoint.

#38 Posted by deathbymanga (661 posts) - - Show Bio

I would have worked with Static Shock (my favorite DC hero), Made a Booster Gold series akin to a more American, comic book like version of Doctor Who, with his time traveling superhero theme, and I would NEVER have done Red Hood and the Outlaws. Red Hood deserves his own comic, and a much more interesting story as well. None of this sex with Starfire sh*t. No. Red Hood is, or should be, an incredibly complex character about the troubles of identity and lack of purpose in life.

#39 Posted by satyrgod (2115 posts) - - Show Bio
@deathbymanga
I wanna know which Robin Starfire preferred.
#40 Posted by KnightRise (4762 posts) - - Show Bio

@deathbymanga: Do you read it? Jason never had sex with Starfire

#41 Posted by satyrgod (2115 posts) - - Show Bio
@KnightRise: "Do you read it? Jason never had sex with Starfire"
 
I only saw a few panels elsewhere on this site, but it appeared that they were going to.  I have no interest in observing this couple engaging in such activity.  So, if not Starfire, did Jason and Dick..?
#42 Edited by Spawn92 (285 posts) - - Show Bio
  1. Justice League of America
  2. Justice League International
  3. Justice Society
  4. Justice League Task Force (black ops style League)
  5. Superman
  6. Acton Comics
  7. Batman
  8. Batman and Robin
  9. Wonder Woman
  10. The Flash
  11. Green Lantern
  12. Green Lantern Corps
  13. Aquaman
  14. Teen Titans
  15. Nightwing
  16. Batgirl
  17. Superboy
  18. Catwoman
  19. Green Arrow
  20. Black Canary and the Birds of Prey
  21. Atom
  22. Hawkman/Hawkgirl
  23. Firestorm
  24. Captain Atom
  25. StormWatch
  26. Wild Cats
  27. Detective Comics
  28. Hitman
  29. Plastic Man
  30. Icon
  31. Hardware
  32. Arsenal and The Outsiders
  33. Martian Manhunter
  34. Shazam!
  35. Suicide Squad
  36. Animal Man
  37. Swamp Thing
  38. Wetworks
  39. Blue Beetle & Booster Gold
  40. Doom Patrol
  41. The Metal Men
  42. Jonah Hex
  43. Justice League Dark
  44. The Ray
  45. Static Shock
  46. Phantom Stranger (or Spectre)
  47. HellBlazer
  48. Star Man
  49. New Gods
  50. The Question
  51. Power Girl
  52. Gen 13
#43 Posted by RideASpaceCowboy (539 posts) - - Show Bio

@RazzaTazz said:

@RideASpaceCowboy said:

I'd have no problem with a homosexual, necrophiliac, infantophile, or any other sexual deviant written as trying to overcome his deviancy, or even an ardent deviant portrayed negatively for his remorseless behavior.

The acceptance of homosexuality as a lifestyle is not required of every human, but the comparison of such a lifestyle is not comparable to the others that you have listed. Homosexuality is not sexual deviancy anymore than heterosexuality is. You will have a hard (and presumably short) presence on these forums if you keep it up with this viewpoint.

Whether it is or is not deviant behavior is exactly the issue of contention; the a priori assumption that it is not so is begging the question. And I do think it is a fair question to ask on these forums when in the context of comic books, and that my position, when stated respectfully, is just as valid despite its unpopularity.

I prefer characters labeled as heroes to act morally and not immorally. I (and many others) believe that homosexuality is immoral. Therefore, I prefer characters labeled as heroes to be portrayed as heterosexual. If giving the chance to enact decisions on the part of comic book publishers (which is the very premise of this thread, specifically in regards to DC's New 52), I would have all characters labeled as heroes portrayed as heterosexuals. Such is a valid topic of discussion and a respectful articulation of my position.

#44 Posted by satyrgod (2115 posts) - - Show Bio
@RideASpaceCowboy
Beliefs, unfortunately, cannot be argued because they are irrational.  It is the height of hypocrisy for you to suggest that a thing (sex, in this case) is acceptable for you (because you are hetero) but deviant for me (because I'm not).  But then, you obviously have no intent to talk to the likes of me or you would have responded to one of my previous posts.  What are you so afraid of?  Who are you to judge and condemn right from wrong for those to whom you are obviously incapable of relating?
#45 Posted by Captain_Yesterday (807 posts) - - Show Bio

@RideASpaceCowboy: No All-Star Western or Jonah Hex? And you call yourself a cowboy...

#46 Edited by RideASpaceCowboy (539 posts) - - Show Bio

@satyrgod said:

@RideASpaceCowboy: Beliefs, unfortunately, cannot be argued because they are irrational. It is the height of hypocrisy for you to suggest that a thing (sex, in this case) is acceptable for you (because you are hetero) but deviant for me (because I'm not). But then, you obviously have no intent to talk to the likes of me or you would have responded to one of my previous posts. What are you so afraid of? Who are you to judge and condemn right from wrong for those to whom you are obviously incapable of relating?

Sex is not in itself acceptable or deviant, but becomes so contextually. Heterosexual intercourse with the confines of matrimony is acceptable for both you and me (regardless of the lack of pleasure you would derive from such). Likewise, homosexual intercourse would be immoral for either you or me (regardless of the lack of pleasure I would derive from such). We both fall under the same moral law. It may be harder for one of us to keep that law than the other, but that does not mean we are being held to a different standard. Such is the case with many unrelated laws. Is not it harder for a kleptomaniac not to steal? Yet the same laws against theft apply to them as apply to you and me. In this there is no hypocrisy.

As far as who I am to judge and condemn what is right and wrong, I am no one and therefore seek to do no such thing. I am not proscribing any moral laws, only describing them. If someone were to ask you what the tax code was in this country, you would not tell them that you feel there ought to be a fair tax or a flat tax; that is not the question being asked. You would instead describe to them the various types of taxes we do pay to the federal and state governments (income, property, sales, estate, etc). For me, in addition to laws written by human legislators which apply only over a given geographical area, I read a moral law which applies universally in all times and places. I do not claim to have written or even discovered this moral law, merely to have read it. Part of this moral law governs human sexuality.

Do I need to empathize or relate to individuals more prone to break this law due to specific inclinations in order to discern whether they have broken it or not? Of course not, for the law applies to acts and behaviors, not motivations. Likewise (and I use the following example only to illustrate my point and not compare or equate obviously unequal infractions), you yourself would not need to be a sociopath devoid of a conscience in order to find a serial killer guilty of murder; you do not need to relate to him or understand where he is coming from in order to say that his actions were unlawful and morally wrong.

#47 Posted by satyrgod (2115 posts) - - Show Bio
@RideASpaceCowboy
Your glaring cognitive error is the assumption of "moral law".  Laws are necessary from a sociological perspective but are only applicable under certain, specific instances and agreed to by a clear majority; laws are not always just and are eventually repealed or, at least, reconsidered; laws are interpreted for various situations and by various lawyers, judges and legislators.  The Defense of Marriage Act is unjust as it targets homosexual unions and is being considered for abrogation.  Your definition of "moral law" as absolute violates definitions of both "moral" and "law".  You can marry and have sex with a woman you profess to love, but would deny me the opportunity with a man I love as "deviant" while saying that I may only have sex within the constraints of a loveless marriage, and you call this moral?  You fail to see the hypocrisy?  Apparently, you get this concept of "moral law" from some misguided religious view to which I do not subscribe.  Don't get me wrong, you are free to think whatever small-minded little thought you want; just don't dare to try to force me into your limited little paradigm.  Your announcing that I and, worse, people like me, are deviants is insulting and derogatory.  I would thank you for keeping your homophobic insults to yourself.  Otherwise, you can expect that I will call you out because of them.  Personally, I couldn't care less what you think of me; but I will not tolerate you targeting youth who are like me with your accusations.  Hateful vitriol worded "respectfully" is just as dehumanizing.
#48 Posted by RideASpaceCowboy (539 posts) - - Show Bio

@satyrgod said:

laws are not always just and are eventually repealed or, at least, reconsidered; laws are interpreted for various situations and by various lawyers, judges and legislators. The Defense of Marriage Act is unjust as it targets homosexual unions and is being considered for abrogation...
Apparently, you get this concept of "moral law" from some misguided religious view to which I do not subscribe. Don't get me wrong, you are free to think whatever small-minded little thought you want; just don't dare to try to force me into your limited little paradigm... I will not tolerate you targeting youth who are like me with your accusations. Hateful vitriol worded "respectfully" is just as dehumanizing.

Don't you see how your appeal to a conception of justice which is normative to human legislation is itself a recognition of a universal moral law. We have different conceptions of what constitutes the moral law, but both of us are arguing from a higher authority, which may be referred to as a "moral imperative" or a "moral law."

Your own language is more filled with hateful vitriol, the only distinction being that it is directed against individuals of a religious convictions different than your own. Your use of phrases such as "misguided religious views," "small-minded little thought," and "limited little paradigm" seethes with anger and betrays your facade of objectivity and rationalism.

#49 Posted by satyrgod (2115 posts) - - Show Bio
@RideASpaceCowboy: "We have different conceptions of what constitutes the moral law, but both of us are arguing from a higher authority, which may be referred to as a "moral imperative" or a "moral law." Your own language is more filled with hateful vitriol, the only distinction being that it is directed against individuals of a religious convictions different than your own. Your use of phrases such as "misguided religious views," "small-minded little thought," and "limited little paradigm" seethes with anger and betrays your facade of objectivity and rationalism."
 
I do not hate religions different than my own; I was referring to your small-mindedness, not your religion's overview.  I don't even know what your religion is.  I believe my words to be rational and cogent.  You are the one casting aspersions against perfectly normal people who are different from yourself.  But I notice that you still haven't responded to my original posts, other than to attempt to re-direct away from my argument of your self-righteous judgement and hypocrisy.