What's with the hate DC is getting?

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AnalogAddiction

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Edited By AnalogAddiction

I do want to figure this out because I don't expose myself to much of the hate for either DC or Marvel, so it confuses me when I see people outraged over something. Like the topic came up a few days ago and most of the readers I spoke to didn't understand where it was coming from either.

http://analogaddiction.org/2013/08/06/dc-comics-has-much-to-offer/

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eternalnature

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they want to try new things.

and lets be honest DIFFERENT BAD. I DONT LIKE DIFFERENT

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dondave

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I started reading comics after the New 52 had started so I have no problem with it, not to mention DC before that was becoming stale apart form some good titles

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TomorrowKnight

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Marvel extremists posing as DC fans.

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FyreLight

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I'm also fairly new to comics so I can't see too much wrong with what they're doing now. Some of the new stuff is really cool (Batman: Court of Owls for example) although I can see why people would get a bit annoyed when they're doing things like suddenly curing Oracle/Barbara Gordon/Batgirl. Not sure how long until her survivors guilt gets old and boring, but for the moment the writing is pretty solid.

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PeppeyHare

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DC doesn't really get that much hate. Not that i've seen anyway. DC is probably more popular than Marvel on the vine

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sinestro_GL

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The reboot maybe? Long time readers didn't like the wiping out of continuity.

The large difference of opinions on Batman and Superman.

Some bad movies.

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kriminal

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#7  Edited By kriminal

Im newish to comics. year and a half. the first comics I bought were incredible hulk 3 by Jason arron and amazing spider-man 679. I buy 5-11 a week, not to mention graphic novels. I don't get the hate. marvel comes out with a lot of events but I enjoy them. I didn't read comics when civil war and secret invasion came out and I love those stories, so I really wish I owned the whole event in individual comics. I got all the avx and age of ultron. and dc promotes batman too much. they do a little with superman too. also both give ongoings to characters like Harley Quinn, larfleeze, gambit, and stuff like avengers arena when there are better characters like punisher, cyborg, and iron fist that don't have ongoings

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thespideyguy

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What hate?

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the_tree

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I hate the New 52 and the terrible management that's come along with it, but other than that, I don't have too much of a problem with DC.

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MakkyD

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GGGRRRRRR CHHAAANNNNGGGGEEEE!!!

Only reason I can think of.

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Lvenger

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The only right answer to this question can come from @fadetoblackbolt. All hail the guru of comics! :P

PS If you don't get this, it's further proof the notification system isn't working.

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Billy Batson

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@enzeru said:

I don't know, but for some reason I simply don't care about the DC characters.

Like for example Batman ... why would I care about Batman losing his son Damian, when at the same time he spares the lives of Jokers and all of the other psychopaths, who are killing family on a daily basis?

Why would I even care about his villains? They're all losers and only around, because of the biggest amount of plot-armor a character could possibly have.

The same thing could be said about Marvel characters...

BB

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joshmightbe

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Because new comic fans are under the impression that the New 52 altered 75 years of history and don't seem to know about the 5 previous massive continuity altering events that took place in the past like Crisis on Infinite Earths and Zero Hour. At most New 52 took out maybe a decade and a half of continuity. As for Marvel a lot of the hate comes from their older fans who current Marvel is actively taking a s**t on and not only that but the writers seem to take great pleasure in the fact that the old fans are upset. Basically DC is a buddy who's going through some changes where as Marvel is a sh**ty ex burning the crap you left in their apartment on your lawn.

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Lvenger

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Because new comic fans are under the impression that the New 52 altered 75 years of history and don't seem to know about the 5 previous massive continuity altering events that took place in the past like Crisis on Infinite Earths and Zero Hour. At most New 52 took out maybe a decade and a half of continuity. As for Marvel a lot of the hate comes from their older fans who current Marvel is actively taking a s**t on and not only that but the writers seem to take great pleasure in the fact that the old fans are upset. Basically DC is a buddy who's going through some changes where as Marvel is a sh**ty ex burning the crap you left in their apartment on your lawn.

I find myself agreeing with this as it justifies my disliking of Marvel more than DC.

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Outside_85

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Mainly they get it from DC fans because of their editorial staff, which seems to have more of a say than actual creators in regards to how the books are going to develop. This is an old song ofc and the classic example is how Sean McKeever and his run on Teen Titans was essentially crippled by editorial constantly interfering with what he wanted to do and instead have to divert time and story to other people's ideas and events.

Another example is how Static's New 52 book was run into the ground by the editor siding with the artist on a long number of story points, which not only frustrated the writer, but apparently endangered him professionally because people blamed him for the book being terrible (and dead after issue 8).

Plus you atm have the non-relationship between Wonder Woman and Superman that some editorial fungus thought was a good idea... along with whoever it is that thinks everyone should be a part of Batman's latest mediocre event.

As much as Marvel just seems to be wandering from one meaningless and boring event into another, I'd rather have their editors at DC, maybe we could have some good books that sold as well?

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ximpossibrux

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Mainly they get it from DC fans because of their editorial staff, which seems to have more of a say than actual creators in regards to how the books are going to develop. This is an old song ofc and the classic example is how Sean McKeever and his run on Teen Titans was essentially crippled by editorial constantly interfering with what he wanted to do and instead have to divert time and story to other people's ideas and events.

Another example is how Static's New 52 book was run into the ground by the editor siding with the artist on a long number of story points, which not only frustrated the writer, but apparently endangered him professionally because people blamed him for the book being terrible (and dead after issue 8).

Plus you atm have the non-relationship between Wonder Woman and Superman that some editorial fungus thought was a good idea... along with whoever it is that thinks everyone should be a part of Batman's latest mediocre event.

As much as Marvel just seems to be wandering from one meaningless and boring event into another, I'd rather have their editors at DC, maybe we could have some good books that sold as well?

thisssssssssss

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tigerkaya

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@joshmightbe: I find myself agreeing with this post it's the most accurate description Marvel acts towards its older fans.

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Cezar_TheScribe

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The new 52 is the reason. DC needs to go back and forget the new 52.

Also, they need to sale Wildstorm back to Image comics.

That's where Wildstorm belongs.

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jeanespinosa21

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honestly some people really hate how DC has too many god like characters and while it does have more god like characters than marvel i dont see this as a issue. Most decent writers can make even a superhuman feel like someone that you can understand. Other complaints i hear is that they only care about pushing their trinity and not letting new characters grow more. Which again can be said that DC doesn't have events like marvel does I mean if you call the first two story arcs of batman an "event" then you can see that every character was developed in that event but other than that marvel has so many events that they just tag the title on and people say they push their less relevant characters more. The last bit of hate is from fanboys and hipsters. Hipsters will say that they dont read the big two because they are both too generic and mainstream and marvel fanboys just wont read DC, which is fine everybody has their own opinon i think this basically sums up most peoples criticism of DC.

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theTimeStreamer

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blah blah butthurt fanboys blah blah blah batman everywhere blah blah reboot good blah blah

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FadeToBlackBolt

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@lvenger: @joshmightbe said:

Because new comic fans are under the impression that the New 52 altered 75 years of history and don't seem to know about the 5 previous massive continuity altering events that took place in the past like Crisis on Infinite Earths and Zero Hour. At most New 52 took out maybe a decade and a half of continuity. As for Marvel a lot of the hate comes from their older fans who current Marvel is actively taking a s**t on and not only that but the writers seem to take great pleasure in the fact that the old fans are upset. Basically DC is a buddy who's going through some changes where as Marvel is a sh**ty ex burning the crap you left in their apartment on your lawn.

This is kind of true. Except that usually when there's a big altering of continuity, the previous large parts remain canon.

Crisis on Infinite Earths was the first, and it remained canon after Zero Hour, Infinite Crisis and Final Crisis. Each of those remained canon after their successor too.

The New 52 got rid of everything except for what the main DC writer wanted (namely his Green Lantern), as well as fundamentally changing numerous characters.

What happened to someone like Jay Garrick after COIE? He moved to Earth 1. Hardly a big deal.

What happened to the Question as of the New 52? He became a cosmic entity and the only thing that's reminiscent of his former character is his look. A VERY BIG DEAL.

It's not really the steamline or restart of canon that's the major issue with the New 52, after all, that's often needed. If the X-Men rebooted tomorrow and wiped out the last 5-8 years or so, it'd be the best news I've heard in a looooooooong time. However, it's the fact that virtually every character was neutered, destroyed, or altered irrevocably. Things that made them unique were dropped, writer-bias played an ENORMOUS part in how characters were written and teams were built, and even the most important arcs were dropped.

John Constantine was assimilated into a world of costumed heroes from his much more serious fantasy/horror Vertigo world and changed into a guy who uses spells. Now in the Vertigo world he had used magic like that, but only a handful of times in 25 years. Turning him into a spellcaster style wizard takes away what made the character unique (and the original outlay for him); he was the "blue-collar warlock" who defeated his amazingly powerful enemies with cunning and use of connections. When you whittle away those personal intricacies of characters, it's an endless process. You take one thing, and then another to suit your story, and eventually they cease to be a character and just become a caricature.

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Phaedrusgr

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BR_Havoc

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In all honesty it comes from the poorly done new 52. I think if it was thought threw better and each book of the old universe got a grand goodbye and not a random one slapped together fast it could of worked. So why DC gets all this hate is because its run poorly and it's obvious that they have no idea what they're doing any more.

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Lvenger

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@fadetoblackbolt: That's a very well thought out post and I do agree Fade. But as I say, there are still some saving graces in DC despite the New 52. Even with the editorial interference, I'd take that over Marvel's lack of care as to what happens to their characters and what the fans actually think about the characters they care about a great deal.

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Captain_Beyond

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If anything Marvel is getting hate for not being serious enough that makes someone want to cut themselves like DC (both comics and film) :P

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FadeToBlackBolt

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#27  Edited By FadeToBlackBolt

@lvenger: Well I'm speaking in generalities. Most things in the New 52 were a mistake. A few things improved (I have little doubt that Azzarello's Wonder Woman is an improvement, though as I've said, that didn't need a company-wide overhaul as JMS put WW in a position to be rebooted anyway).

But for the most part, the New 52 has been very poorly done.

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Lvenger

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#28  Edited By Lvenger

@fadetoblackbolt: As ever, I agree with your wisdom Fade. I find it harder to be impartial to the overall state of the New 52. But you'd be going up against the legions of irritable Wonder Woman fans on here for a comment like that :P

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Billy Batson

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The new 52 is the reason. DC needs to go back and forget the new 52.

Also, they need to sale Wildstorm back to Image comics.

That's where Wildstorm belongs.

Going back won't change anything with shitty editorial.

BB

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FadeToBlackBolt

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@lvenger: Wonder Woman fans will always be mad. Their favourite character is Wonder Woman. She's usually written terribly or part of some dumb storyline.

It's like being a modern Cyke fan.

The New 52 was a good idea that was just polluted by a few egotists. I think that's the best way of looking at it. Not an orchestrated destruction of everything good (like modern Marvel), but a missed opportunity because a few people suck.

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Lvenger

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@fadetoblackbolt: Personally, I think one of the better interpretations of Wonder Woman was in the Justice League/Unlimited cartoons. That distilled everything that makes Wonder Woman a good character and put it all in there.

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FadeToBlackBolt

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#33  Edited By FadeToBlackBolt

@theacidskull: Marvel's a headless chicken atm. It might lay an egg in the 7 seconds before it dies, but it's not likely.

@lvenger: I agree 100% I felt that her portrayal in JL/U was perfect. Wouldn't have changed a thing.

Her appearance in her solo animated film was also terrific (one of the best DCUA films put out, imo). And the neo-Feminist themes addressed everything that can make Wonder Woman an off-putting title.

Sadly, most of that hasn't translated to the comics.

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Lvenger

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@fadetoblackbolt: I loved that one too! It's an underrated film that doesn't get the credit it deserves. Probably my 6th favourite DCUO.

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FadeToBlackBolt

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@lvenger: I would say it's probably my... equal third?

  1. Batman: Under the Red Hood
  2. Superman vs the Elite
  3. Justice League: Crisis on Two Earths/Wonder Woman
  4. The Dark Knight Returns Part 1
  5. Green Lantern: First Flight
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Lvenger

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@fadetoblackbolt: Nice choices. Mine would have to be:

  1. Superman vs The Elite
  2. All Star Superman
  3. Batman: Under the Red Hood
  4. Justice League: Crisis on Two Earths
  5. Green Lantern: First Flight

I considered Doom for my top 5 but despite it being McDuffie's last work before his passing, there are a few flaws with it.

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FadeToBlackBolt

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@lvenger: I am not a big fan of the direct retreads of the comics. The only one I really liked was Vs the Elite. I didn't care for All-Star, New Frontier or Year One for that reason.

Doom could have been really good... then Cyborg. Every scene with him was just HEY LOOK, CYBORG IS REALLY COOL. LOOK. HE'S COOL. PLEASE THINK HE'S COOL. PLEASE.

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Lvenger

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@fadetoblackbolt: Elite had some tweaks that made it work in a cartoon which is why I enjoyed it. And agreed on Cyborg, it was Johns' interference in trying to make Cyborg seem important.

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FadeToBlackBolt

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@lvenger: Agreed. Elite was terrific. I showed it to my mother and she loved it because it had a point beyond good guys vs bad guys. It also never pretended to be less than mature. Managerie was spouting 15+ dialogue every time she spoke.

Sadly, that's the case for all DC animated films from now on.

@theacidskull: Nope, but it was just very well done. Great music and direction.

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FadeToBlackBolt

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#43  Edited By FadeToBlackBolt

@theacidskull: Yeah, wasn't as good because Carrie Kelly was in it more and she's terrible.

It's just subtext. Poorly written characters create unwanted subtext.

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FadeToBlackBolt

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#45  Edited By FadeToBlackBolt

@theacidskull: Bruce fires Dick for not following orders, apparently.

Carrie never follows orders.

He removes his mask to her after meeting her for like two seconds.

Lots of hugging, which he's apparently completely against since he forced an 8 year old Grayson to eat rats (in All-Star, which is canon to Returns).

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Lvenger

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@fadetoblackbolt: That's what I loved about it. Although All Star is still my all time favourite Superman story (got the deluxe edition recently and am reading through it) Action Comics #775 is my second favourite and the film adapted the core message of the film incredibly well along with fleshing it out. The bits with Atomic Skull were organically integrated into the film and fitted the mature themes of it.

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FadeToBlackBolt

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@lvenger: Yep, not to mention it allowed DC to say "LOOK AT US, GHOST RIDER, WE DID IT FIRST"

@theacidskull: All-Star Batman and Robin. The definition of hot with a terrible personality.

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FadeToBlackBolt

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#50  Edited By FadeToBlackBolt