whas superman realy holding back in the dark night returns?

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eagerbuttermilk

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#1  Edited By eagerbuttermilk

I personally don't think so but some people do so i wus just wondering

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Black_Arrow

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Yes he was

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JonSmith

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Was Batman turned into paste?

No?

Then he was holding back.

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PeppeyHare

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How could you not think he was holding back?

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SheenLantern

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#5  Edited By SheenLantern

@jonsmith said:

Was Batman turned into paste?

No?

Then he was holding back.

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PapiNacho

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#6  Edited By PapiNacho

Yep

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deaditegonzo

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@jonsmith said:

Was Batman turned into paste?

No?

Then he was holding back.

All joking aside, both Batman thought, and Superman essentially said he was holding back. Supes never had to meet him toe to toe and fight a fair fight, Supes could have just flown in at super sonic speeds and face-punch-one-hit-KO Batman.

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Battle_Forum_Junkie

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@eagerbuttermilk: Yes, he was holding back. What was there to suggest he wasn't?

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joshmightbe

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I think he was but its equally possible that Frank Miller nerfed him because he was pretty much the progenitor of the current Bat stroking writers have been doing for the past 2 decades give or take a few years.

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Bezza

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#10  Edited By Bezza

I don't think he was as he was a particularly weedy Superman. Frank Miller himself has said that Superman is not realistic, op'd etc, hence he prefers writing comics about Daredevil and Batman and took the opportunity to "nerf" Superman to the weakest I've ever seen him. That nuclear explosion almost finished Superman off, whereas normally Supes would shrug it off with ease. Miller really is a Superman hater...

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eagerbuttermilk

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RBT

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Both of them were holding back. Both could have killed each other if they really wanted. Supes could just have punted Bruce in space. Bruce could've used that synthetic k-nite earlier. He even said that he deliberately made that k-nite weak.

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joshmightbe

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@eagerbuttermilk: I blame Frank Miller, because instead of leaving out a character he neither likes or understands wasn't an option for him so he had to make Superman look bad instead. Don't get me wrong here I like TDKR but it featured one of the worst written Superman incarnations ever.

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deaditegonzo

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@bezza said:

I don't think he was as he was a particularly weedy Superman. Frank Miller himself has said that Superman is not realistic, op'd etc, hence he prefers writing comics about Daredevil and Batman and took the opportunity to "nerf" Superman to the weakest I've ever seen him. That nuclear explosion almost finished Superman off, whereas normally Supes would shrug it off with ease. Miller really is a Superman hater...

Yeah, I agree he was a nerfed Supes, but even nerfed, he was still holding back.

@rbt said:

Both of them were holding back. Both could have killed each other if they really wanted. Supes could just have punted Bruce in space. Bruce could've used that synthetic k-nite earlier. He even said that he deliberately made that k-nite weak.

It wasnt weakened K-Nite, im looking at the scan right now, and I can post it if you like. Bruce went all out, threw everything he had, and was losing until Arrow shot Supes with the K-Nite arrow.

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eagerbuttermilk

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RBT

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@deaditegonzo: I read that comic ages ago so my memory might be a bit fuzzy, but I do remember Bruce saying something like " I didn.t have to go easy on you. A different mix, stronger agent. I want you to remember." Unless he didn't say these in comic, Batman was going easy. And Bruce didn.t NNED Oliver's help. He wanted Oliver to be a part of Superman's defeat, so he gave him the k-nite. Bruce could easily have carried it on him.

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PapiNacho

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Superman essentially got hit by every nuclear bomb in Russia, that is more than enough power to destroy the world, are you guys really saying that he should be able to easily shrug that off? He wasn't nerfed he was weakened and holding back.

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deaditegonzo

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#18  Edited By deaditegonzo

@rbt: He may say that in the sequel, which I havent read as I had enough Frank Miller garbage after the first one. But in the first one, he doesnt say anything like that, he just says how it was hard to synthesize and took years and a fortune, both of which he had.

Batman was NOT going easy at all, he admits to being out of tricks after the acid, laying there with broken ribs and a broken wrists. He is almost out of time right before Oliver shoots the arrow.

Yeah, Bruce probably could have just carried the K-nite on him, i'll give you that. And Supes in that book was totally stupid enough to just walk up and let Bruce dose him with it, too. So yeah, I agree there.

Edit: Also, while not even trying, Batman was starting to lose earlier than he had accounted for, according to his own narration.

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RBT

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@deaditegonzo: Whole point Batman was fighting to prove to Superman that there are other ways than what he was doing. Oliver didn't do his job properly.

That quote was from the animated movie. I don't remember if it was said in comic or not.

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deaditegonzo

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No Caption Provided

@mitran: This scan has him talking about making the K-Nite.

@papinacho: Where do you get the impression he was hit by every nuke in Russia? Also, that wouldnt actually destroy the whole world. Besides that, Pre-52 Supes has tanked SUPERNOVAS, thats a lot more than the energy to destroy a planet. MILLIONS of times the energy.

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deaditegonzo

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#23  Edited By deaditegonzo

@mitran: And even as a line in a movie, thats sort of a stupid line, imo. As if EVEN pure K-Nite has ever just instantly killed Superman.

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PapiNacho

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@deaditegonzo: Pre-52 Superman was also smacked around by giant robots, his power levels are inconsistent just like every other character. It's ridiculous to think that he should be tanking supernovas all the time, he lives on earth. Plus his powers where heightened after Infinite crisis this versions seems more consistent to the one written in the eighties.

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deaditegonzo

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@papinacho: I can think of two instances of him surviving a Super Nova, that establishes a pretty clear level of durability. Not to mention planetary destruction on multiple instances, not the least of which being Apokolips and New Genesis colliding with him in-between (For an idea of scale, Earth was said to be able to fit in one of New Genesis' Lakes).

There's another thread on the front page right now, "Why Can Flash be Hit?" the answers are: 1) For the sake of plot and 2) Because Flash only runs as fast as he has to against any given opponent. Supes being "smacked around by giant robots" is explained exactly the same way.

Supes should shrug off any nuclear blast.

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w0nd

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@rbt said:

@deaditegonzo: I read that comic ages ago so my memory might be a bit fuzzy, but I do remember Bruce saying something like " I didn.t have to go easy on you. A different mix, stronger agent. I want you to remember." Unless he didn't say these in comic, Batman was going easy. And Bruce didn.t NNED Oliver's help. He wanted Oliver to be a part of Superman's defeat, so he gave him the k-nite. Bruce could easily have carried it on him.

that being said Bruce had an exposed head, any exposed part bruce had clark avoided...a backhand to the face would have taken his head off, but every punch he throw was to an armoured section....

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DarkDay

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@deaditegonzo: Pre-52 Superman was also smacked around by giant robots, his power levels are inconsistent just like every other character. It's ridiculous to think that he should be tanking supernovas all the time, he lives on earth. Plus his powers where heightened after Infinite crisis this versions seems more consistent to the one written in the eighties.

I'd argue that his powers were first nerfed, then later heightened again. But I sorta agree.

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PapiNacho

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#28  Edited By PapiNacho

@deaditegonzo: Or maybe Superman surviving those supernovas is just for the sake of the plot; how come you get to decide what his consistency is. It ridiculous to call a character nerfed when he doesn't show his "best" showings all the time. If you have a character that can tank supernovas nothing on earth could possibly threaten him; including Lex Luthor,Parasite, Liverwire or Metallo or any of the villains that he usually fights. He is constantly written on Metropolis, he is constantly written as being threatened by them it is not inconceivable that nuclear bombs could seriously harm him. Otherwise him punching people like Zod, with enough force to actually hurt him would destroy the world.

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deaditegonzo

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@papinacho: Lex Luthor hasnt been a direct threat to him in ages, and I hope we never see Lex personally suiting up against him ever again. Lex can be the ultimate schemer, but him putting on a stupid suit and going toe to toe with Supes is just dumb, for the reason you mentioned.

Now Parasite on the other hand, well he steals Superman's own power. His entire shtick is that he weakens Supes while growing stronger himself.

Livewire? She's rarely ever been used as a serious threat outside of the Animated Series, which was a super weak, nerfed, version of Superman.

Metallo carries Superman's main weakness around in his chest.

Zod and Superman have destroyed a world. Kal-El and Kal-L destroyed all reality fighting. Its comic book physics, only unimportant planets can be destroyed (obviously).

So youre saying Supes cant tank Super Novas? And I guess Flash isnt faster than the speed of light? Because if you believe those things despite comic evidence proving you totally incorrect then I think theres no point in us discussing further.

Just as an aside, DKR was written before COIE ended, so Supes realistically should have been stronger.

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PapiNacho

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#31  Edited By PapiNacho

@papinacho: Lex Luthor hasnt been a direct threat to him in ages, and I hope we never see Lex personally suiting up against him ever again. Lex can be the ultimate schemer, but him putting on a stupid suit and going toe to toe with Supes is just dumb, for the reason you mentioned.

If by ages you mean pre-52 then yes because that is the first time Lex suited up; guess Supes was nerfed all the time.

Now Parasite on the other hand, well he steals Superman's own power. His entire shtick is that he weakens Supes while growing stronger himself.

He would explode.

Livewire? She's rarely ever been used as a serious threat outside of the Animated Series, which was a super weak, nerfed, version of Superman.

Sure

Metallo carries Superman's main weakness around in his chest.

Sure

Zod and Superman have destroyed a world. Kal-El and Kal-L destroyed all reality fighting. Its comic book physics, only unimportant planets can be destroyed (obviously).

Mhhmm; so them not destroying the world is comic book physics but Superman tanking a supernova isn't.

So youre saying Supes cant tank Super Novas? And I guess Flash isnt faster than the speed of light? Because if you believe those things despite comic evidence proving you totally incorrect then I think theres no point in us discussing further.

I'm not saying he never has; he obviously has, I'm saying it doesn't make sense to hold that as Superman's consistent power level. Bizarro would have destroyed the world a long time ago if this was true.

Just as an aside, DKR was written before COIE ended, so Supes realistically should have been stronger.

Silver age ended before COIE, it was the bronze age. There are no realistic feats as we have discussed before this is comic books.