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Posted by Timandm (3374 posts) - - Show Bio

I like the 'idea' of Wakanda, but there are too many contradictions in what is claimed about Wakanda and what the reality (comic book reality) is.
 
Wakanda is supposed to be a small African nation that is more advanced than the rest of the world.  It's supposed to be more civilized.  It is supposed to be more technologically and SPIRITUALLY advanced than the rest of the world.
 
Consider this interesting dialogue from Black Panther Volume 4 issue 3

 
 Here, King T'Chaka, Black Panther and ruler of Wakanda at the time, tells the members of the United Nations that it would irresponsible for Wakanda to share its scientific discoveries with the rest of the world until they are more "spiritually mature."
 
Hmmm... Let's take a look at these  "spiritually mature' people.
 
 

First, their more civilized way of choosing a king. Notice, I didn't say leader or president or prime minister.


 Black Panther V4 Issue 2
 
 
 
 Obviously democracy is an ass-backward concept used by spiritually immature countries where the ignorant masses believe power should come from the governed...  We waste our time with petty processes like VOTING.
 
When the people of the free world are more enlightened, they will finally see that the best way to 'choose a ruler' is to simply.... Let the potential rulers KICK THE CRAP OUT OF EACH OTHER until only one remains standing.   Kind of like HIGHLANDER.  and who didn't like THAT movie?!
 
God bless Wakanda for showing us how uncivilized the democratic process is.  To think we could have had Mike Tyson ruling the U.S. instead of Bill Clinton...    if only we were as spiritually mature as Wakanda.
 
 
 

What else can we learn from these more civilized people. Oh, how about compassion?


 Cancer Cure for sell!

 ' IF ' the uncivilized people will give us espionage secrets 'MAYBE' we could give them the CURE FOR CANCER...
 
'WHAT?  Give these uncivilized, spiritually immature people the cure for cancer?!  Are you insane?  They don't even choose their leaders by combat!?!?!
 
 
 
 
 
 
 

Separation of Church and State is obviously wrong


 Many of us ass-backward citizens of the United States believe that people should be free to choose for themselves whether or not they believe in God.  We believe they should have the right to worship, or not, as they see fit as long as their religious freedom does not impinge on the rights of others.  But all these years we've had it wrong.  Thank God (or the Wakandan panther deity) for showing us a better way.    
 
In Wakanda, the King (the guy who can beat the crap out of everyone else... Oh, he has to be able to read and write as well.)  IS ALSO THE SPIRITUAL LEADER.  The King and Pope in one so to speak.  I guess it saves time...
 

The Black Black Jaguar  (yes I typed 'black' twice on purpose because I'm more advanced)

 The WHITE POLAR BEAR...
The BLACK AND WHITE ZEBRA...
The  WHITE CAUCASIAN...
 
Do either of those three terms strike you as odd?  I hope so.  I hope that you realize calling a  polar bear white is redundant because polar bears ARE white.  ALL POLAR BEARS ARE WHITE.  It's sort of a defining feature of being a polar bear.  Also, ALL ZEBRAS are black and white!  You wouldn't call a Zebra a "black and white" zebra...would you?   And would you bother describing a Caucasian man as being a WHITE CAUCASIAN man?   No... Why not?  Well, because Caucasians are white people.  That's sort of the definition of being Caucasian.
 
So, what does this have to do with Wakanda?  Well, their RULER and SPIRITUAL leader is The BLACK PANTHER.  Calling a panther black is like calling a polar bear white.  All polar bears ARE white....  All panthers ARE black...    
 
A PANTHER (the species), BY DEFINITION, ARE JAGUARS WITH BLACK HAIR.     PANTHERS ARE BLACK JAGUARS.   

Panther = Black Jaguar.

       
So, if Wakanda called it's ruler the BLACK JAGUAR... Well, THAT would make sense...  but BLACK panther? Seriously?   That's like saying the Black Black Jaguar.
 
So...Wakanda, a more advanced, civilized, and spiritually mature nation, chooses it's king through personal combat, gives them the title of Black Black Jaguar, and hoards the cure for cancer because the rest of the world aren't ready for it...  Something about that isn't quite right...
#1 Edited by Lvenger (19350 posts) - - Show Bio

I don't see how the last point is a problem but the others are actually pretty good criticisms of Wakanda being supposedly ahead of Western Civilisation. I never thought of the king as a mixture of the leader and the Pope. And their religion is far more rooted in the mythology of the past rather than being supposedly spiritually progressive. And hoarding a cure for cancer? Not on at all.

#2 Edited by Timandm (3374 posts) - - Show Bio
@Lvenger said:

I don't see how the last point is a problem but the others are actually pretty good criticisms of Wakanda being supposedly ahead of Western Civilisation. I never thought of the king as a mixture of the leader and the Pope. And their religion is far more rooted in the mythology of the past rather than being supposedly spiritually progressive. And hoarding a cure for cancer? Not on at all.

Well, to be honest, I almost didn't mention the "black black jaguar" thing as it's mostly just something that irritates me.  It's not as if it's immoral or unethical.  I just find it stupid.  I probably should have taken the high road and left it off... But...I guess, to me, a society that is supposedly so advanced should KNOW that a "black" panther is the ONLY kind of panther there is...
 
There's a scene from a movie (and I can't remember the name of the movie at the moment)  where a man and woman on a date go to an Italian restaurant.  The name of the restaurant is  '  The La Ristorante'.     This literally means   ' The The Restaurant' because 'La' in Italian means 'the.'    But the restaurant in the movie was opened by an American who didn't quite understand that 'La Ristorante' meant 'The Restaurant.'      Hence  "The La Ristorante."    Nonetheless, the name IS kind of cute and catching, albeit grammatically incorrect.  I can accept someone naming their restaurant that way, but their ruler and priest???  Doesn't that position require more...thought?
 
In the U.S., the title for the leader of our country is President.   We don't call them the "Elected President" because it's understood that he is elected.  The head of the catholic church is the Pope.   He is called the Pope, not the Catholic Pope.   For one to be the Pope, they must first be Catholic.  So, Wakanda, being so advanced and civilized, really should give a bit more thought to the title of their leader...      That's why I added that...
#3 Posted by Lvenger (19350 posts) - - Show Bio

@Timandm: Heh some people are like that with foreign language. And a guy as intelligent as T'Challa should be spotting that. Hell a society like Wakanda should be spotting that. Agreed on the last points. It is self evident in an elected leader which Wakanda society is sadly behind in Still like T'Challa though. New Avengers looks intriguing as hell! Are you reading that?

#4 Posted by Timandm (3374 posts) - - Show Bio
@Lvenger: I am reading New Avengers.  It DOES look intriguing although I went in expecting to hate it, so my expectations were low... LOL!!!  But I only expected to hate it because I was being a brat.  I liked the New Avengers as they were, (Luke, Jessica, Spider-man, etc..)...  But this story line really has a lot of potential.  And I do love the idea that they might have to decide whether or not they would be willing to destroy another earth to save their own.  I love when stories address issues like that.  What I mean is that they go beyond talking about it and actually have to DO SOMETHING and you get to see what they really believe...
#5 Posted by Lvenger (19350 posts) - - Show Bio

@Timandm: Hmm the dilemmas they face are quite difficult ones to resolve. This one is actually more entertaining than Avengers for me. Plus it's monthly rather than bi monthly and it's cheaper.

#6 Posted by lykopis (10746 posts) - - Show Bio

Spot on.

I want to say more but yeah -- can't. There is no disputing any of the points you bring up. Plus, don't forget --- pretty convenient to be the religious leader and king -- divorce is pretty easy but then again, it's better than going the King Henry the VIII's route. ;p

#7 Posted by Timandm (3374 posts) - - Show Bio
@Lvenger said:

@Timandm: Hmm the dilemmas they face are quite difficult ones to resolve. This one is actually more entertaining than Avengers for me. Plus it's monthly rather than bi monthly and it's cheaper.

I think the normal Avengers title is going to take a long time to really take off because there are now SO MANY avengers... It's huge... I can't really see keeping it in just one series...  But, yeah, there are going to be some excellent dilemmas in new Avengers. 
 
@lykopis said:

Spot on.

I want to say more but yeah -- can't. There is no disputing any of the points you bring up. Plus, don't forget --- pretty convenient to be the religious leader and king -- divorce is pretty easy but then again, it's better than going the King Henry the VIII's route. ;p

Yeah, I don't think the comic community would tolerate a headless storm...  
You know, you're not only ALLOWED to say more here, but encouraged to...  I'd love to hear what you have to say on the matter...  (You're one of the sharp cookies in here.)
#8 Edited by lykopis (10746 posts) - - Show Bio

I'll take a stab at it. (...get it?) *pause*

I'll stop now. >_>

There might be a kind of over-compensation/tongue-in cheek reason for how Wakanda is presented in the Marvel universe, I think. Here you have a powerful warrior monarch reigning over an African nation thick with tribal symbolism - not just in dress but in its architecture - adhering to an animistic and monolithic belief system which encourages and celebrates acts of human violence. These usually are considered hallmarks of a primitive society and yet Wakanda is opposite of that. Not a lot of thought was put into its creation -- there was a clear intent to present the nation in a favourable if not superior light in comparison to the rest of the world, particularly countries like the United States and England. They just smacked on the label of the most technologically advanced to offset the assumption it would be otherwise based in its geographic location and citizens. Problem is, Marvel left it as is without really quantifying -- I get the whole meteor/vibranium angle but even then it doesn't explain how this tiny country could be leagues ahead of everyone else -- regardless of its once secret existence.

Just my opinion. It grates a bit having Wakanda consider the rest of the world spiritually inferior as reasons for not sharing its technology (let alone the cure for cancer) when part of its history tells of sending out its most brilliant scientists to every corner of the planet to learn of other discoveries. It's okay for other countries to share, but not in kind?

Examples of hypocrisy abound -- but hey, it's comics. If they can't explain something logically, then they don't at all. At least usually.

#9 Posted by Pyrogram (36653 posts) - - Show Bio

Panther is a dictator basically. But - It is their culture and same as real life , what can you do?

Wakana is supposed to be a closed country that trusts nobody, The way the marvel universe works and how the USA do things in it, I really don't blame them :P

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#10 Posted by Timandm (3374 posts) - - Show Bio
@Pyrogram said:

Panther is a dictator basically. But - It is their culture and same as real life , what can you do?

Wakana is supposed to be a closed country that trusts nobody, The way the marvel universe works and how the USA do things in it, I really don't blame them :P

LOL!  A part of me WANTS to be offended that you said, "The way the USA does things..."  But I know you're right...  The government does things that most of us really don't want... or at least, we WOULDN'T want those things done if we knew the truth about things...
 And I can completely understand Wakanda being a closed community.  I just wish more readers saw Wakanda for what it really is.  I think the writers WANTED Wakanda to be a more civilized and advanced place, but they screwed up somewhere along the way...
@lykopis
That was some darn fine stabbing!  :-)
 

"There might be a kind of over-compensation/tongue-in cheek reason for how Wakanda is presented in the Marvel universe, I think. Here you have a powerful warrior monarch reigning over an African nation thick with tribal symbolism - not just in dress but in its architecture - adhering to an animistic and monolithic belief system which encourages and celebrates acts of human violence. These usually are considered hallmarks of a primitive society and yet Wakanda is opposite of that. Not a lot of thought was put into its creation -- there was a clear intent to present the nation in a favourable if not superior light in comparison to the rest of the world, particularly countries like the United States and England. They just smacked on the label of the most technologically advanced to offset the assumption it would be otherwise based in its geographic location and citizens. Problem is, Marvel left it as is without really quantifying -- I get the whole meteor/vibranium angle but even then it doesn't explain how this tiny country could be leagues ahead of everyone else -- regardless of its once secret existence.

Just my opinion. It grates a bit having Wakanda consider the rest of the world spiritually inferior as reasons for not sharing its technology (let alone the cure for cancer) when part of its history tells of sending out its most brilliant scientists to every corner of the planet to learn of other discoveries. It's okay for other countries to share, but not in kind?"

Yes!  Exactly!  I wish I had put it that way.
#11 Posted by Pyrogram (36653 posts) - - Show Bio

@Timandm: I have to disagree with you , I still see Wakanda as the future of how the rest of the world in the Marvel verse should be, looking at their tech is all that is needed, They are for their people before anybody else, what is wrong with that? When it is CLEAR that opening to anybody else will just get their country destroyed, like now... The USA in the Marvel verse is not a good example of a good country ( not saying you said that though ) , Wakanda has been isolated for a good reason.

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#12 Posted by New_World_Order (13050 posts) - - Show Bio

Very good

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#13 Posted by Rumble Man (11119 posts) - - Show Bio

Best substitute for voting ever

#14 Posted by SC (12967 posts) - - Show Bio

@Pyrogram said:

I still see Wakanda as the future of how the rest of the world in the Marvel verse should be, looking at their tech is all that is needed,

Eh see thats sort of the problem, given the point about Wakanda chiding other nations for their views/practices on money and power. Its overly simplistic to substitute those very general terms for technology and now magically its okay or even virtuous especially considering why and how Wakanda is technologically advanced. Its really a case of writers not really thinking too hard about all of this and trying to make something sound more impressive without actually building solid fictional reasons to support that foundation. In other words the future of the world shouldn't be so superficially pleasant.

That being said polar bears traditionally are black! Not white, its their fur that is white, so I assume that a guy called the White Polar Bear might be an albino polar bear with white skin and white fur. Also probably a Rob Liefeld character. Oh wait no, that would be Whyte Polar Bear and his sidekick Black WoMantra XIII, the most Xtreme dual racial duo team up since Riggs and Murtaugh! Watch Whyte Polar Bea and Black WoMantra XIII attempt to take down the Killa Whale of Crime, the Prime Fillet himself the Manatee of Painatee! Uhm... I am going to leave now.

(great blog by the way)

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#15 Posted by Blood1991 (8098 posts) - - Show Bio

The country is socially backward in alot of ways and one thing I really wish Marvel would do is portray T'challa and Shuri trying to show their people the world instead of trying to keep them isolated.

#16 Posted by joeagentofhand1 (4362 posts) - - Show Bio

@Rumble Man said:

Best substitute for voting ever

to quote Winston Churchill "The best argument against democracy is a five minute conversation with the average voter".

#17 Posted by KnightRise (4785 posts) - - Show Bio

@Timandm: Florida Panthers aren't black

#18 Posted by lightsout (1827 posts) - - Show Bio

@KnightRise: technically that's just an inaccurate/regional/unofficial nickname for puma concolor (aka the Cougar or Puma). Black jaguars & black leopards belong to the genus Panthera

#19 Posted by Charlie_Jade (523 posts) - - Show Bio

Well sometimes he's showing a lot more care and heart than Cap, Cyclops, Wanda, Stark and Reed Richards. That's the thing about 616 everyone is flawed and villains like Magneto don't seem so bad.

Panther values theocracy and monarch ideas, when the heroes of 616 sometimes behave like war mongers maybe Panther's values aren't such a bad thing

#20 Posted by KnightRise (4785 posts) - - Show Bio

@lightsout: I'm fully aware, but technically the term panther could also be applied to any of the four beast cats in the genus Panthera. I'm just leaning toward the term panther being less specific than what the OP is getting at.

#21 Posted by lightsout (1827 posts) - - Show Bio

@KnightRise: technically, (in a way) yea, lol. I was just getting at that, biologist/zoologist wise, no one would use that term to describe them.

#22 Posted by KnightRise (4785 posts) - - Show Bio

@lightsout: Florida panthers? I'm pretty sure thats their official non-nonmenclature name. I don't refer to the subspecies in Florida as cougars, the name for Eastern and Western mountain lions. I think Florida panthers are called "panthers" by scientist. I've never heard of Florida Cougars and I've never heard a zoolologist even use the word "puma".

#23 Posted by Avenging-X-Bolt (12983 posts) - - Show Bio

@Timandm said:

I like the 'idea' of Wakanda, but there are too many contradictions in what is claimed about Wakanda and what the reality (comic book reality) is.

Wakanda is supposed to be a small African nation that is more advanced than the rest of the world. It's supposed to be more civilized. It is supposed to be more technologically and SPIRITUALLY advanced than the rest of the world.

Consider this interesting dialogue from Black Panther Volume 4 issue 3

Here, King T'Chaka, Black Panther and ruler of Wakanda at the time, tells the members of the United Nations that it would irresponsible for Wakanda to share its scientific discoveries with the rest of the world until they are more "spiritually mature."

Hmmm... Let's take a look at these "spiritually mature' people.


First, their more civilized way of choosing a king. Notice, I didn't say leader or president or prime minister.


Black Panther V4 Issue 2



Obviously democracy is an ass-backward concept used by spiritually immature countries where the ignorant masses believe power should come from the governed... We waste our time with petty processes like VOTING.

When the people of the free world are more enlightened, they will finally see that the best way to 'choose a ruler' is to simply.... Let the potential rulers KICK THE CRAP OUT OF EACH OTHER until only one remains standing. Kind of like HIGHLANDER. and who didn't like THAT movie?!

God bless Wakanda for showing us how uncivilized the democratic process is. To think we could have had Mike Tyson ruling the U.S. instead of Bill Clinton... if only we were as spiritually mature as Wakanda.



What else can we learn from these more civilized people. Oh, how about compassion?


Cancer Cure for sell!

' IF ' the uncivilized people will give us espionage secrets 'MAYBE' we could give them the CURE FOR CANCER...

'WHAT? Give these uncivilized, spiritually immature people the cure for cancer?! Are you insane? They don't even choose their leaders by combat!?!?!







Separation of Church and State is obviously wrong


Many of us ass-backward citizens of the United States believe that people should be free to choose for themselves whether or not they believe in God. We believe they should have the right to worship, or not, as they see fit as long as their religious freedom does not impinge on the rights of others. But all these years we've had it wrong. Thank God (or the Wakandan panther deity) for showing us a better way.

In Wakanda, the King (the guy who can beat the crap out of everyone else... Oh, he has to be able to read and write as well.) IS ALSO THE SPIRITUAL LEADER. The King and Pope in one so to speak. I guess it saves time...

The Black Black Jaguar (yes I typed 'black' twice on purpose because I'm more advanced)

The WHITE POLAR BEAR...
The BLACK AND WHITE ZEBRA...
The WHITE CAUCASIAN...

Do either of those three terms strike you as odd? I hope so. I hope that you realize calling a polar bear white is redundant because polar bears ARE white. ALL POLAR BEARS ARE WHITE. It's sort of a defining feature of being a polar bear. Also, ALL ZEBRAS are black and white! You wouldn't call a Zebra a "black and white" zebra...would you? And would you bother describing a Caucasian man as being a WHITE CAUCASIAN man? No... Why not? Well, because Caucasians are white people. That's sort of the definition of being Caucasian.

So, what does this have to do with Wakanda? Well, their RULER and SPIRITUAL leader is The BLACK PANTHER. Calling a panther black is like calling a polar bear white. All polar bears ARE white.... All panthers ARE black...

A PANTHER (the species), BY DEFINITION, ARE JAGUARS WITH BLACK HAIR. PANTHERS ARE BLACK JAGUARS.

Panther = Black Jaguar.


So, if Wakanda called it's ruler the BLACK JAGUAR... Well, THAT would make sense... but BLACK panther? Seriously? That's like saying the Black Black Jaguar. So...Wakanda, a more advanced, civilized, and spiritually mature nation, chooses it's king through personal combat, gives them the title of Black Black Jaguar, and hoards the cure for cancer because the rest of the world aren't ready for it... Something about that isn't quite right...

Wakanda was only supposed to be technologically more advanced and its more than simple physical combat that chooses the king iirc such as the search for the sacred herb and such (which generally means nothing if Bast says you aren't worthy. and Black Panther sounds cooler than Black Jaguar or Panther : P

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#24 Posted by lightsout (1827 posts) - - Show Bio

@KnightRise: whatever, we're splitting fine hairs at this point

#25 Posted by Timandm (3374 posts) - - Show Bio
@KnightRise said:

@Timandm: Florida Panthers aren't black

Florida "panthers" are in the "genus" panthera but they are a sub-species of cougar.  as lightsout said...  
Although, in my mind, I was thinking that there was a specific species commonly referred to as the "Panther."  But I did a little reading earlier, and it looks as if the term Panther refers to a number of 'black' cats from the large cat family.   Now, the defining point here is that to first BE a panther, the cat must be black.  Hence the term "Black" panther is redundant...   So, to be clear, (to my knowledge) there really is no Panther that is not black.   Now, that is excluding things like albinism which can result in a White Panther, but that is the result of a condition.  it is not the norm for a species or group.
 
@Pyrogram said:

@Timandm: I have to disagree with you , I still see Wakanda as the future of how the rest of the world in the Marvel verse should be, looking at their tech is all that is needed, They are for their people before anybody else, what is wrong with that? When it is CLEAR that opening to anybody else will just get their country destroyed, like now... The USA in the Marvel verse is not a good example of a good country ( not saying you said that though ) , Wakanda has been isolated for a good reason.

I don't see a problem with their being secluded.  
 
However, do you believe the following things are expected from a more civilized people?
  1. Their ruler is also their high priest?
  2. That their Church and State are one?
  3. That they do not have freedom of religion?
  4. That their ruler is chosen by combat rather than by vote?
  5. That they have the cure for cancer but refuse to share it with the rest of the world?

You HONESTLY believe that makes them more civilized and spiritually advanced?

@SC
That being said polar bears traditionally are black! Not white, its their fur that is white, so I assume that a guy called the White Polar Bear might be an albino polar bear with white skin and white fur. Also probably a Rob Liefeld character. Oh wait no, that would be Whyte Polar Bear and his sidekick Black WoMantra XIII, the most Xtreme dual racial duo team up since Riggs and Murtaugh! Watch Whyte Polar Bea and Black WoMantra XIII attempt to take down the Killa Whale of Crime, the Prime Fillet himself the Manatee of Painatee! Uhm... I am going to leave now.
 
LOL!  I just KNEW someone was going to point that out.   Am I surprised that it was you?  Not really.  I was referring to their fur.  I believe it's racist to focus on the color of their skin!  Have we learned nothing from the music of Michael Jackson?  it don't matter if you're black or white?!?!?  LOL!!!!
Now, if The White Polar Bear was a Rob Liefeld character.... it would have to wear pouches... and if it were female its waist would have to be so narrow that the bear would break in half if it tried to stand upright on its hind legs...
I have to say, I LIKE the idea of your team 'Whyte Polar Bear and Black WoMantra."  So many possibilities.  Biracial.. male and female...  inter-species (I think?)...  Swimming about the world protecting endangered species and... putting out oil well fires...
 
@Charlie_Jade said:

Well sometimes he's showing a lot more care and heart than Cap, Cyclops, Wanda, Stark and Reed Richards. That's the thing about 616 everyone is flawed and villains like Magneto don't seem so bad.

Panther values theocracy and monarch ideas, when the heroes of 616 sometimes behave like war mongers maybe Panther's values aren't such a bad thing

Well, you're focusing on T'Challa.  He's a very good and decent person.  He was smart enough not to get involved with the illuminati.  He respects the rights of other nations.  His integrity is undeniable.  I think with the right writer, he could have a great series.  But I'm really trying to focus on the idea of Wakanda, the kingdom, being considered more civilized and spiritually advanced.  Does a more civilized nation (kingdom) really choose their ruler by hand to hand combat?   Should we do that here in the U.S.?   Should Queen Elizabeth have to throw down every year to keep her throne?
 
Also, would a civilized people have the cure for cancer, but refuse to share it with the rest of the world?  I have a problem with that.
 
I think the suggestion is that, Wakanda is technologically advanced because they are so spiritually superior to the rest of the world.  The truth is, their technological advancement is due largely to the fact that their country was founded right on top of a buried meteorite that was composed mostly of vibranium.  They were able to build things other people couldn't.  The radiation from the vibranium even affected the plant and animal life in a positive way.  That had nothing to do with Wakandans being advanced or spritual.
#26 Posted by Timandm (3374 posts) - - Show Bio
@Avenging-X-Bolt: Wakanda was only supposed to be technologically more advanced and its more than simple physical combat that chooses the king iirc such as the search for the sacred herb and such (which generally means nothing if Bast says you aren't worthy. and Black Panther sounds cooler than Black Jaguar or Panther : P
 
yes, it's more than simply combat...  I believe there's also a written test.  :-)   but the combat is mandatory and it is a yearly event.  Anyone who passes the other tests have the right to challenge the current ruler to combat for the throne.
 Now, if the writers had left it at "Wakanda is the most technologically advanced kingdom in the world" then it'd be great.  it'd be interesting, believable, and even kewl...  But somehow they snuck in this arrogant 'spiritual superiority' into the mix...
#27 Posted by Pyrogram (36653 posts) - - Show Bio

@Timandm said:

Their ruler is also their high priest?
I don't see a problem, their culture.
That their Church and State are one?
Culture also...
That they do not have freedom of religion?
I agree, that is bad.
That their ruler is chosen by combat rather than by vote?
Cannot see a problem, The population would rebel if they did not like it.
That they have the cure for cancer but refuse to share it with the rest of the world?
I see your point, but again they are a closed society for a good reason, any opening to other countries will lead to more than just sharing a cure , so I see their point of view also. But its a comic. Who cares? If it makes people this annoyed is it not a brilliant move?
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#28 Posted by JonSmith (3996 posts) - - Show Bio

@Timandm: The key to 'spiritually mature' is not any of the points you listed. Those can be held down to tradition. What he means by spiritually mature is more along the lines of what that guy mentions in the fourth panel for your choice on the cure for cancer: That Algae Treatment Plant would probably not get built in the US. Either it would cost too much money or take too many jobs.

When the guy says the people are more 'spiritually mature', he means they're more morally devoted and honor bound than the people of the US (which admittedly, and speaking as a citizen of the USA myself, isn't exactly a statement of great triumph). For example, a person in the US could and would starve to death without a job if they couldn't reach a soup kitchen. In Wakanda, it would be safe to assume that while they have a monetary system, they have a backup barter system, something the US has long since abandoned. For example, "I have no money to pay for this, but I can do X for you if you need it at some point in the future, but I need this now." In US, you'd be hard pressed to find ANYONE willing to take a deal like that, simply because the chances of actually getting paid back are so small. In Wakanda? That deal would probably be taken without a second thought, because the people of Wakanda, by and large, are just THAT honorable. They trust a stranger to repay a favor because they're that honorable, and if a person needs something more than them, then they can have it.

Which you would THINK is defeated by your whole point of: THEY HAVE THE CURE FOR CANCER AND WON'T GIVE IT TO US. WTF. But it's not, because their assertion that we'd weaponize it HAS LITERALLY ALREADY BEEN PROVEN: Norman Osborn, of all people, figured out how to cure cancer during his Dark Reign. Why? So he could put it in a bullet and use it to kill Deadpool, who was annoying him. Even in the hands of someone more... sane... moral... whatever, the cure in the US would be ludicrously expensive, even if manufacturing isn't, because people would be willing to pay through the nose to get it. How much is a life worth? Etc. Whereas Wakanda, I believe, has free healthcare, again bringing up the fact that they're willing to sacrifice money/profit to do the right thing. Not to mention military applications, such as reverse engineering how it works to perhaps use it as a bio weapon would be inspected by the US before allowing civilian use as an actual cure. While such inspections may have been made by Wakanda, once it was discovered it was a cure that worked, I guarantee it was put into production immediately to save lives.

To put it simply: They don't give us the cure because like it or not, the people we trust to make our mass decisions really AREN'T able to handle it with our best interests at hand primarily.

And as for how the king is decided, the fact that that can go down, while primitive, is PROOF of their 'spiritual maturity': In the US, for a similar kind of thing to take place, I guarantee each participant would undercut the other at every opportunity. Snipers in the buildings to take out their opponent, perhaps causing an accident to injure their opponent in such a way that they are still weak, though able to participate in the fight. Etc. Here, it's a straight up, knock down, drag out, fight, between two combatants of equal skill. No trickery or cheating involved. And not just because the rules would prevent it: The two participants WOULDN'T EVEN THINK of trying something like that to achieve success.

Now granted, it's 5:30 in the morning and I haven't slept in the past eighteen hours or so, so this already overly long rant could be completely incorrect or irrelevant. But I am JUST sleep deprived enough to stop here and post it anyway.

#29 Posted by Lvenger (19350 posts) - - Show Bio

@JonSmith: Why did Osborn think a cure for cancer could kill Deadpool? And I'm sure any country anywhere wouldn't make a cure for cancer which hopefully will be discovered someday uber expensive so that poor people couldn't afford it. Given the suffering cancer has inflicted on us all, it wouldn't be received well for the cure to be put out of most people's reach.

#30 Posted by quirky_anecdotes (344 posts) - - Show Bio

@Timandm said:

@KnightRise said:

@Timandm: Florida Panthers aren't black

Florida "panthers" are in the "genus" panthera but they are a sub-species of cougar. as lightsout said...
Although, in my mind, I was thinking that there was a specific species commonly referred to as the "Panther." But I did a little reading earlier, and it looks as if the term Panther refers to a number of 'black' cats from the large cat family. Now, the defining point here is that to first BE a panther, the cat must be black. Hence the term "Black" panther is redundant... So, to be clear, (to my knowledge) there really is no Panther that is not black. Now, that is excluding things like albinism which can result in a White Panther, but that is the result of a condition. it is not the norm for a species or group.

@Pyrogram said:

@Timandm: I have to disagree with you , I still see Wakanda as the future of how the rest of the world in the Marvel verse should be, looking at their tech is all that is needed, They are for their people before anybody else, what is wrong with that? When it is CLEAR that opening to anybody else will just get their country destroyed, like now... The USA in the Marvel verse is not a good example of a good country ( not saying you said that though ) , Wakanda has been isolated for a good reason.

I don't see a problem with their being secluded.

However, do you believe the following things are expected from a more civilized people?
  1. Their ruler is also their high priest?
  2. That their Church and State are one?
  3. That they do not have freedom of religion?
  4. That their ruler is chosen by combat rather than by vote?
  5. That they have the cure for cancer but refuse to share it with the rest of the world?

You HONESTLY believe that makes them more civilized and spiritually advanced?

@SC:
That being said polar bears traditionally are black! Not white, its their fur that is white, so I assume that a guy called the White Polar Bear might be an albino polar bear with white skin and white fur. Also probably a Rob Liefeld character. Oh wait no, that would be Whyte Polar Bear and his sidekick Black WoMantra XIII, the most Xtreme dual racial duo team up since Riggs and Murtaugh! Watch Whyte Polar Bea and Black WoMantra XIII attempt to take down the Killa Whale of Crime, the Prime Fillet himself the Manatee of Painatee! Uhm... I am going to leave now.

LOL! I just KNEW someone was going to point that out. Am I surprised that it was you? Not really. I was referring to their fur. I believe it's racist to focus on the color of their skin! Have we learned nothing from the music of Michael Jackson? it don't matter if you're black or white?!?!? LOL!!!!
Now, if The White Polar Bear was a Rob Liefeld character.... it would have to wear pouches... and if it were female its waist would have to be so narrow that the bear would break in half if it tried to stand upright on its hind legs...
I have to say, I LIKE the idea of your team 'Whyte Polar Bear and Black WoMantra." So many possibilities. Biracial.. male and female... inter-species (I think?)... Swimming about the world protecting endangered species and... putting out oil well fires...

@Charlie_Jade said:

Well sometimes he's showing a lot more care and heart than Cap, Cyclops, Wanda, Stark and Reed Richards. That's the thing about 616 everyone is flawed and villains like Magneto don't seem so bad.

Panther values theocracy and monarch ideas, when the heroes of 616 sometimes behave like war mongers maybe Panther's values aren't such a bad thing

Well, you're focusing on T'Challa. He's a very good and decent person. He was smart enough not to get involved with the illuminati. He respects the rights of other nations. His integrity is undeniable. I think with the right writer, he could have a great series. But I'm really trying to focus on the idea of Wakanda, the kingdom, being considered more civilized and spiritually advanced. Does a more civilized nation (kingdom) really choose their ruler by hand to hand combat? Should we do that here in the U.S.? Should Queen Elizabeth have to throw down every year to keep her throne? Also, would a civilized people have the cure for cancer, but refuse to share it with the rest of the world? I have a problem with that. I think the suggestion is that, Wakanda is technologically advanced because they are so spiritually superior to the rest of the world. The truth is, their technological advancement is due largely to the fact that their country was founded right on top of a buried meteorite that was composed mostly of vibranium. They were able to build things other people couldn't. The radiation from the vibranium even affected the plant and animal life in a positive way. That had nothing to do with Wakandans being advanced or spritual.

What? I don't even understand what you're trying to say, here. You admit they're more technological advanced then us but not more Civilized?

If you're trying for a real world thing here then that's completely wrong. I can think of a single point in history in which a less technological advanced society was more civilized. In fact it sounds border line impossible to be honest.

#31 Edited by Jorgevy (5114 posts) - - Show Bio

@Timandm said:

First, their more civilized way of choosing a king. Notice, I didn't say leader or president or prime minister.

are you implying that monarchy isn't a form of government compatible with progress and advanced civilization?

pS: Black Panther thing - leopard's latin name means Black Panther. also the term Black Panther existed already when BlacK Panther was invented in association with african individuals, like the Black panther Party or black panther as a nickname

#32 Posted by JonSmith (3996 posts) - - Show Bio

@Lvenger said:

Why did Osborn think a cure for cancer could kill Deadpool? And I'm sure any country anywhere wouldn't make a cure for cancer which hopefully will be discovered someday uber expensive so that poor people couldn't afford it. Given the suffering cancer has inflicted on us all, it wouldn't be received well for the cure to be put out of most people's reach.

Deadpool originally signed on to Weapon X in order to hopefully obtain a cure for his terminal cancer. When his healing factor was activated, it determined what was 'baseline' Wade, meaning, what's the original Wade, to what degree does he need to be healed, (i.e., two arms, two legs, etc) and included his cancer as a part of that, since it's a part of him. Of course, since cancer is the uncontrolled growth of malignant cells, it naturally took to Deadpool's constantly regenerating cells with aplomb, and began spreading wildly. His healing factor kicked in to combat it's growth, but never wiped it out completely due to it recognizing the source as 'baseline Wade' thus creating a never ending battle between the two forces.

Osborn theorized that shooting Deadpool with the cure, completely wiping out his cancer, would cause his healing factor to go berserk: It can't regenerate malignancy, because it's harmful to Wade, the cancer spreading was it doing what it does best. At the same time, said cancer is a part of 'normal Wade' meaning it HAS to be healed in order for him to be whole. Basically think of what happens to any robot in a show when it's given a paradox: i.e., it HAS to do this, but this contradicts it's main directive, but it also serves the main directive, etc. Healing factor goes berserk, going into overdrive seeking out a way to heal Wade and get him back to baseline. It can't, so it'll heal anything even potentially wrong with Wade, any outer source effecting him, trying to fix it so it can't harm him. Unfortunately, in doing so, it'll further change the baseline Wade in a way it can't reverse, and thus go even MORE berserk and sensitive, until Deadpool's just a pile of goo on the ground.

... Granted, it didn't go QUITE into that much depth, it was more "Osborn made a cure for cancer, and put it in a bullet. Shoot Deadpool with the bullet, his healing factor goes into overdrive, goo."

And while that's a nice opinion, the US government would most likely conceal and inspect it rigorously once given it by the Wakandan people. It wouldn't announce that they have it until they're done using it and attempting to weaponize it against their fellow common man. Once that's done, they'll announce 'a cure for cancer has been found!', then make it ludicrously expensive because people WITH cancer want it that bad. Of course, they'll dress it up as 'it's really expensive to make, so what you're paying for is just allowing us to break even and make a small profit'. But it'll be a lie since the Wakandan's have been handing it out for free to their own people. Said lie will only serve to contain that backlash of people going "I'M POOR, I CAN'T AFFORD THAT BUT I NEED IT TOO!"

Business's and government's, at least when it comes to paying for a service, don't care if you're poor. They care if you have the money to pay for their product. If you don't, then you do not matter in the slightest.

#33 Posted by nj06 (248 posts) - - Show Bio

@Timandm: The key to 'spiritually mature' is not any of the points you listed. Those can be held down to tradition. What he means by spiritually mature is more along the lines of what that guy mentions in the fourth panel for your choice on the cure for cancer: That Algae Treatment Plant would probably not get built in the US. Either it would cost too much money or take too many jobs.

When the guy says the people are more 'spiritually mature', he means they're more morally devoted and honor bound than the people of the US (which admittedly, and speaking as a citizen of the USA myself, isn't exactly a statement of great triumph). For example, a person in the US could and would starve to death without a job if they couldn't reach a soup kitchen. In Wakanda, it would be safe to assume that while they have a monetary system, they have a backup barter system, something the US has long since abandoned. For example, "I have no money to pay for this, but I can do X for you if you need it at some point in the future, but I need this now." In US, you'd be hard pressed to find ANYONE willing to take a deal like that, simply because the chances of actually getting paid back are so small. In Wakanda? That deal would probably be taken without a second thought, because the people of Wakanda, by and large, are just THAT honorable. They trust a stranger to repay a favor because they're that honorable, and if a person needs something more than them, then they can have it.

Which you would THINK is defeated by your whole point of: THEY HAVE THE CURE FOR CANCER AND WON'T GIVE IT TO US. WTF. But it's not, because their assertion that we'd weaponize it HAS LITERALLY ALREADY BEEN PROVEN: Norman Osborn, of all people, figured out how to cure cancer during his Dark Reign. Why? So he could put it in a bullet and use it to kill Deadpool, who was annoying him. Even in the hands of someone more... sane... moral... whatever, the cure in the US would be ludicrously expensive, even if manufacturing isn't, because people would be willing to pay through the nose to get it. How much is a life worth? Etc. Whereas Wakanda, I believe, has free healthcare, again bringing up the fact that they're willing to sacrifice money/profit to do the right thing. Not to mention military applications, such as reverse engineering how it works to perhaps use it as a bio weapon would be inspected by the US before allowing civilian use as an actual cure. While such inspections may have been made by Wakanda, once it was discovered it was a cure that worked, I guarantee it was put into production immediately to save lives.

To put it simply: They don't give us the cure because like it or not, the people we trust to make our mass decisions really AREN'T able to handle it with our best interests at hand primarily.

And as for how the king is decided, the fact that that can go down, while primitive, is PROOF of their 'spiritual maturity': In the US, for a similar kind of thing to take place, I guarantee each participant would undercut the other at every opportunity. Snipers in the buildings to take out their opponent, perhaps causing an accident to injure their opponent in such a way that they are still weak, though able to participate in the fight. Etc. Here, it's a straight up, knock down, drag out, fight, between two combatants of equal skill. No trickery or cheating involved. And not just because the rules would prevent it: The two participants WOULDN'T EVEN THINK of trying something like that to achieve success.

Now granted, it's 5:30 in the morning and I haven't slept in the past eighteen hours or so, so this already overly long rant could be completely incorrect or irrelevant. But I am JUST sleep deprived enough to stop here and post it anyway.

@JonSmith: Excellent post and I like the way you explained the spiritual maturity.

@Timandm: It should be noted that the scans you have in your first post were originally suppose to be a self-contained non-canon storyline by Hudlin (for example, the changing in the death of T'Chaka). It wasn't until Hudlin finished the 6th issue that he was offered the chance to make it an ongoing, so that's why some of that should be taken with a grain of salt.

Also, where did you read that Wakanda doesn't have freedom of religion? I know at one point the White Gorilla Cult and the Lion Cult existed in Wakanda but both have been outlawed because I think the White Gorilla Cult rebelled and the Lion God of the Lion Cult was actually quite evil lol.

How much Black Panther have you read? You should look into Black Panther as written by Christopher Priest. His BP stories are considered arguably the best and provide an interesting take on T'Challa and Wakanda.

#34 Posted by AtPhantom (14521 posts) - - Show Bio

@Timandm said:

However, do you believe the following things are expected from a more civilized people?
  1. Their ruler is also their high priest?
  2. That their Church and State are one?
  3. That they do not have freedom of religion?
  4. That their ruler is chosen by combat rather than by vote?
  5. That they have the cure for cancer but refuse to share it with the rest of the world?

You HONESTLY believe that makes them more civilized and spiritually advanced?

You know, theocracy makes a lot more sense when you know that your god is not only real, but attentive.

#35 Edited by Timandm (3374 posts) - - Show Bio
@JonSmith: Well said.
 
I do disagree with your argument that they believe they should withhold the cure for cancer because it' might not get made in the U.S or it might be too expensive.  There is absolutely no reason they could not give the cure (the chemical formula and manufacturing process or the plant) out to the ENTIRE world.  Somewhere in the world SOMEONE will make it available.    How would Wakanda be hurt by giving out the cure'?  They would lose NOTHING....  I believe a truly advanced society should have enough compassion to make a cure available to the world.  You mention Norman Osborne who is not only EVIL but truly a Prick... he had a cure for cancer developed just to use it as a weapon against Deadpool.   But how would the evil actions of one citizen of the U.S. absolve another nation of being morally responsible?  If i were to develop a cure for aids, should I withhold that cure from other nations because I think they will charge too much for it or not use it properly?  If I had the cure for aids, I feel my moral obligation would be to share it with the entire world.  Would certain people try to profit off of it or develop a weapon from it?  Maybe, but MY obligation would be to provide the cure.  I can't control what evil people MIGHT do with what good I have developed.  Now, I'm not talking about sharing nuclear bombs, mind you... I'm talking about something that could save millions of lives...
 
You argue in favor of Wakanda withholding the cure for cancer from the U.S.   Well, what about Canada?  Sweden? France?  Andorra De Bella?  Norway?  Is there NO other country in the world "worthy enough" to share the cure for cancer with?  In the Marvel universe, are Wakandans REALLY the only people civilized enough to deserve the cure for cancer? 

@nj06: @Timandm: It should be noted that the scans you have in your first post were originally suppose to be a self-contained non-canon storyline by Hudlin (for example, the changing in the death of T'Chaka). It wasn't until Hudlin finished the 6th issue that he was offered the chance to make it an ongoing, so that's why some of that should be taken with a grain of salt.
 
So, originally it was sort of an alternate earth type of thing?   Seems like they could have tried to iron some of those wrinkles out.
 

Also, where did you read that Wakanda doesn't have freedom of religion? I know at one point the White Gorilla Cult and the Lion Cult existed in Wakanda but both have been outlawed because I think the White Gorilla Cult rebelled and the Lion God of the Lion Cult was actually quite evil lol.

How much Black Panther have you read? You should look into Black Panther as written by Christopher Priest. His BP stories are considered arguably the best and provide an interesting take on T'Challa and Wakanda.

Consider this, the United States congress passes a new law.  They create a law that makes membership in the Catholic Church MANDATORY to be eligible for the office of President.  Basically, only Catholics could become President.  Would you believe that the U.S. still had religion of freedom?   No, of course not.  Okay, so how about the President of the U.S. MUST also be the head of the Catholic Church in the U.S.?  Sound good?  Well, no....   But in Wakanda, the King must be and IS the high priest in the Panther Cult.  So, even if other cults or religions exist, their members could never the the King of Wakanda...  But even more basic than that, when there is no separation of Church and State, when the Church IS the State, there can be no religious freedom.  A friend of mine, several years back, was living in Saudi Arabia.  He was arrested and beaten for holding bible studies in his apartment.   Try selling or even giving away a bible in Iraq, Iran, or Jordan...  In those countries, the State and the Church are the same.  There is no separation.   I doubt T'Challa would have people arrested for being involved in other religions, but do people of other religions, in Wakanda, receive equal treatment and opportunity?
 
As for how much Black Panther I've read.  I was reading the most recent series, but I gave up on it because I hated much of the art.  Often times the panels were so dark I could see what was going on.  And then, even when I COULD see what was going on, the charactes were drawn so poorly, I couldn't recognize many of them.  I HATE having to decipher the art to determine who and what I'm looking at.  I think it was around the time that T'Challa took over for Daredevil in Hell's Kitchen that I gave up on it...
#36 Posted by Timandm (3374 posts) - - Show Bio
@AtPhantom said:

@Timandm said:

However, do you believe the following things are expected from a more civilized people?
  1. Their ruler is also their high priest?
  2. That their Church and State are one?
  3. That they do not have freedom of religion?
  4. That their ruler is chosen by combat rather than by vote?
  5. That they have the cure for cancer but refuse to share it with the rest of the world?

You HONESTLY believe that makes them more civilized and spiritually advanced?

You know, theocracy makes a lot more sense when you know that your god is not only real, but attentive.

And that would be the god that determined that Victor Von Doom was a good man and worthy of access to all of Wakanda's vibranium...
#37 Posted by nj06 (248 posts) - - Show Bio

As these scans show, one can be King of Wakanda without having to be the Black Panther.

Also, Bast never declared that Doom was a good man, but rather that he was pure in his intent, which was what was needed to pass the test.

#38 Posted by arnoldoaad (1007 posts) - - Show Bio

I totally wanted to make this same argument

The thing that really stuck to me more was when they confess that they pretty much have the cure for cancer, and they dont share it because they think they need to do it themselves, they literally think themselves as superior beings that is completely disgusting

I might be wrong but i think Wakanda is not part of the United Nations at this point of comics if not ever, something like this very easily could trigger a war against them.

#39 Posted by Agent9149 (2894 posts) - - Show Bio

A panther is large cat. A black panther is a black large cat. Saying black panther is correct. Also there are no jaguars in Africa. A black panther in Africa would be a black leopard.

#40 Posted by Captain_Yesterday (807 posts) - - Show Bio

Separation of Church and State bad? You lost me after that.

If there is one good thing about this country, it's that.

#41 Posted by Timandm (3374 posts) - - Show Bio
@nj06: Yes, IF the current BLACK PANTHER decides to change the law, the next leader does not have to be a Black Panther... 
@Agent9149 said:

A panther is large cat. A black panther is a black large cat. Saying black panther is correct. Also there are no jaguars in Africa. A black panther in Africa would be a black leopard.

No... A panther is a large cat that has black hair.  If it does not have black hair, it is not a Panther.
One of the freshmen classes I teach is biology.  I have to teach taxonomy and phylogeny.   Things like species, genus, families, orders, classes... These are NOT new to me and it's not a matter of opinion.
#42 Posted by Timandm (3374 posts) - - Show Bio
@Captain_Yesterday said:

Separation of Church and State bad? You lost me after that.

If there is one good thing about this country, it's that.

Are you saying that separation of Church and State is a bad thing?  So, YOU believe the leaders of the Church SHOULD be the leaders of the country?
#43 Posted by Captain_Yesterday (807 posts) - - Show Bio

@Timandm: Lol that's what I said, but I misspoke, or mistyped in this situation. What I meant was.

Separation of Church and State wrong? You lost me after that.

If there is one good thing about this country, it's that.

#44 Posted by Timandm (3374 posts) - - Show Bio
@Captain_Yesterday said:

@Timandm: Lol that's what I said, but I misspoke, or mistyped in this situation. What I meant was.

Separation of Church and State wrong? You lost me after that.

If there is one good thing about this country, it's that.

AH!  gotcha.  Yes, we agree that separation of Church and State is a good thing.  I fully believe in the existence of God.  I'm a Christian and member of a Baptist Church, but I do not believe the Church should run the country.
#45 Posted by JonSmith (3996 posts) - - Show Bio

@Timandm said:

I do disagree with your argument that they believe they should withhold the cure for cancer because it' might not get made in the U.S or it might be too expensive. There is absolutely no reason they could not give the cure (the chemical formula and manufacturing process or the plant) out to the ENTIRE world. Somewhere in the world SOMEONE will make it available. How would Wakanda be hurt by giving out the cure'? They would lose NOTHING.... I believe a truly advanced society should have enough compassion to make a cure available to the world. You mention Norman Osborne who is not only EVIL but truly a Prick... he had a cure for cancer developed just to use it as a weapon against Deadpool. But how would the evil actions of one citizen of the U.S. absolve another nation of being morally responsible? If i were to develop a cure for aids, should I withhold that cure from other nations because I think they will charge too much for it or not use it properly? If I had the cure for aids, I feel my moral obligation would be to share it with the entire world. Would certain people try to profit off of it or develop a weapon from it? Maybe, but MY obligation would be to provide the cure. I can't control what evil people MIGHT do with what good I have developed. Now, I'm not talking about sharing nuclear bombs, mind you... I'm talking about something that could save millions of lives...

If the cure was developed into a biological weapon, such as with Deadpool, or against the common man, due to their honor, Wakandan's would hold themselves personally responsible for every death caused by it. For example, if you gave a child a bottle of pills. In small, regulated quantities, these pills could help the child. Now if the child takes all the pills and dies, who is responsible? The child, for not acting with the maturity and knowledge you know they don't possess? Or you, for giving them something that could be harmful? While it's not an exact metaphor, since you could keep an eye on the child and regulate it, and the Wakandan's couldn't do that if they gave out the cure, I hope it serves the purpose.

And while yes, the Wakandan's could give out the cure to the entire world, on the hope that SOMEONE would make it immediately available, the small areas that give it out immediately and for free will be vastly outnumbered by the ones that withhold it for those who can afford it, and try to weaponize it, even if only to keep up with all the other places trying to weaponize it immediately. To expand on the above metaphor: If you give a large number of pills to a hundred children, and ten use it properly, while the remaining ninety don't (even if some of that ninety only take the pills to follow the majority) you still have ninety dead children you're personally responsible for.

Now granted, that casts aspersions on the various governments around the world that I'm not entirely comfortable making (due to being an ignorant American, insert 'durr hurr durr hurr' here.), but it seems logical enough to make the assumption that they'd try to keep up with weaponizing the cure, if only not to be caught at a disadvantage or fall behind. See the Cold War for details!

#46 Posted by Timandm (3374 posts) - - Show Bio
@JonSmith: You're making sound like the government of the U.S. weaponized cancer...  That's not accurate.  Osbourne did.  Osbourne was not an elected official.    
 
But, regardless, Wakanda was withhold the cure for Cancer LONG before Osborne had anything to do with SHIELD OR HAMMER>
 
Besides, hoarding a cure out of FEAR that the cure might be weaponized?    If the Canadian government announced that their scientists had discovered the cure for AIDS but that this cure would not be shared with the rest of the world because the rest of the world MIGHT be able to turn it into a weapon.... Would you consider their actions to be those of a more civilized people?
#47 Posted by Agent9149 (2894 posts) - - Show Bio

@Timandm: a panther is a large cat in the panthera genus, like the jaguar, and leopard. The cougars are called panthers as well and they are not melanistic. There are also white panthers, named after large cats with pale fur.

#48 Posted by Nelomaxwell (10438 posts) - - Show Bio

I wanted to comment but I'm not going to except this.

#49 Posted by Fallen_Crippled (6451 posts) - - Show Bio

Lol. You lost me at the Black Jaguar part. O well. All the rest was actually very interesting.

#50 Edited by Timandm (3374 posts) - - Show Bio
@Agent9149 said:

@Timandm: a panther is a large cat in the panthera genus, like the jaguar, and leopard. The cougars are called panthers as well and they are not melanistic. There are also white panthers, named after large cats with pale fur.

It doesn't matter how many times you say that... It won't make it true... Sorry...
You should really pull some scientific journals and read up on the subject.  Before I was allowed to teach this stuff at a university, they required me to get a PhD.  One of the things I had to learn, was how to look up, pull, and read peer-reviewed journals on subjects I'm trying to learn about.
 
What journals have you read on this subject?  How many scientists with PhDs have you discussed this with?  
@Nelomaxwell said:

I wanted to comment but I'm not going to except this.


Well thank you for coming in and telling us that  you're not going to discuss it.  Well said.
 
@Fallen_Crippled said:

Lol. You lost me at the Black Jaguar part. O well. All the rest was actually very interesting.


Well, I'm glad you liked the rest of it.   But let me ask you this.   What would you think about the Catholic church if they called the Pope, 'The Catholic Pope" ?   Wouldn't that seem a little odd?   Or if people started called  the male parent in the family unit, 'Male Father'?   Can you imagine introducing your girlfriend to your 'Male Father' and your 'Female Mother'?   Wouldn't that seem a bit odd?   A father, by definition, is male.  A mother, by definition, is female.   And an Panther, by definition, is black.  All true panthers are black.  (cept those with conditions like albinism).    But so many people, like myself, have grown up reading comics and we just ASSUMED that the term 'Black Panther' was normal.
 
Oh, I just thought of an excellent example.  The word 'irregardless.'   Do you see anything wrong with the word 'irregardless.'   I hope you do.  If you don't, then you're one of the many millions of people who have become accustomed to using the word 'irregardless' thinking it's actually a word.  it isn't.
 
Regard -  Consider / give consideration to / think of
RegardLESS -  Without regard.
IR-regard-LESS -  Not without regard.  Meaning 'regard.'
 
 Irregardless actually means the same thing as regard.  But it has now been used SO OFTEN because people just believe what they've heard and accept it, that the word 'irregardless' is making its way into dictionaries...  Languages do tend to 'evolve' that way...  
 
So, millions of people heard of "The Black Panther" growing up and just accepted it.  Perhaps that's why it doesn't seem so odd to them now...  I wonder, if they had grown up reading about the super hero known as 'The White Haired Polar Bear'  would they find it odd...