#1 Posted by soduh2 (868 posts) - - Show Bio

Can it ever be justified as a long term change?

Red Hulk:

A lot of people complain about Red Hulk joining the Avengers. I'd say General Ross (by becoming a Hulk and joining the team) is basically doing what he thinks the Hulk should be doing. Protecting others as a "big gun" secret weapon. His military background makes him a strong team player as well. Although he was extreme, he was never malicious. Therefore he should stay a good guy.

Dr. Doom

Although he had some under handed intentions, I'd say joining an organization like thev Future foundation sort of fits with Doom's style. Proactively educating young minds in how to make a difference in the world... "With Science!" How can Doom not resist taking part? Though, with his history with Reed, I don't see him staying for long. Doom should stay neutral (rather than good or bad).

Magneto:

Lost his mutant powers (went through a lot to get them back). And the Mutant population was severely reduced. It's in Magneto's character to want to work together with the remaining Mutants and maybe rethink his views of humans. In particular, Mags is generally described as being "Malcolm X" to Xavier's "MLK jr", Malcolm X changed his view of non-blacks after a pilgrimage and Magneto has basically done the same. Let him stay good.

What do you think? Any other cases to be discussed?

#2 Posted by SC (13739 posts) - - Show Bio

Cool thread! I was annoyed when I found out Radioactive Man went back to being a villain. I liked him as a heroic character. For me I like the idea that Magneto can slip from a protagonist to an antagonist to the X-Men back and forth. So sometimes he might seem a bit more bad than good and vice versa.   

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#3 Posted by ntb1124 (959 posts) - - Show Bio

The Thunderbolts were my favorite, when the Avengers disappeared they became heroes solely so they could take over the world. Then they threw out Zemo and became good guys for real(for the most part), and then even had Hawkeye leading them...I know they have bounced back and forth over the years though...

#4 Posted by DrRhythm (6 posts) - - Show Bio

Back in the 80s or 90s Spiderman baddie Sandman became one of the good(ish) guys, though a mercenary one working for Silver Sable. Not sure what his current standing is, though. Magneto and Doom are my favourite limit-cases in this category though, as both, for different reasons and in different ways, destabilize good guy/bad guy dichotomies. Magneto has a cause that is not objectionable, though his methods are. Doom's megalomania makes him capable of doing heinous things, but in a Nietzschean Superman kinds of way that makes him beyond good and evil.

#5 Edited by soduh2 (868 posts) - - Show Bio

I think you can look at Batman's villains the same way.

Joker: Despite the "going sane" comic and arguably the "Joker's Millions" episode of Batman the Animated Serires, should stay bad. I don't see him gaining anything by becoming a good guy. Maybe he can float toward chaotic neutrality.

Riddler: I think more people would appreciate him if he were to change his ways. It would help stroke his ego if nothing else. Similar to Lex Luthor just on a smaller scale.

Penguin: He'll probably make more money if he did legitimate business practices.

#6 Edited by stumpy49er (613 posts) - - Show Bio

Dinobot: from Beast Wars. He went back and forth but always ended up siding with the good guys. Spike: from Buffy. Love brought him to the good side. Beetle: from Thunderbolts is one of my favorites. Riddler: I like the idea of him being a pure neutral. Fits with the whole question mark motif. Never know what side he is on or what his true motives are. Darth Vader!

#7 Posted by Enosisik (1153 posts) - - Show Bio

I think we are long past the MLK /Malcom X similarities with the Prof and Mags. Idk in Marvel every big villain has been good at some point so it's kinda lost it's shock value . I love AOA Sabertooth and prefer ST over Wolverine in most cases but the thing is he's just too good of a villain to change. I think this is something that works far better with B-list badguys who the writer doesn't have to find a way to justify or work around a long history of evil actions. Sure this b-Listers do terrible things but they tend to be more forgettable.

#8 Posted by EdBlank (655 posts) - - Show Bio

The ENTIRE point of a comic is some weirdo coming through trying to blow up the city/world. It has been said so often that a char like Bats, Flash, or Spider is defines by his "rogues". Why, then, use the best villians in the history of the char as teammates? Sure you can make up a new guy to attack New York, but chances are - since all the really good schtick has been taken for decades now - he will suck.. at least moreso than the tried and true bad guy who's been around since 1950. I think it's a mistake to make Venom a good guy (with the guns and the new look they have basically destroyed Venom altogether). He was truly Spider's best enemy. Same with Doom, Lex, and the rest. Besides: a guy tries to eat your brain or destroy your planet one day and the next you are palling around with him. Nonsensical.

#9 Posted by JediXMan (31598 posts) - - Show Bio

I personally like Magneto being a good guy; I always saw him as an anti-hero.

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#10 Posted by Fuchsia_Nightingale (10130 posts) - - Show Bio

I think too many have.

#11 Posted by soduh2 (868 posts) - - Show Bio

@EdBlank said:

The ENTIRE point of a comic is some weirdo coming through trying to blow up the city/world. It has been said so often that a char like Bats, Flash, or Spider is defines by his "rogues". Why, then, use the best villians in the history of the char as teammates? Sure you can make up a new guy to attack New York, but chances are - since all the really good schtick has been taken for decades now - he will suck.. at least moreso than the tried and true bad guy who's been around since 1950. I think it's a mistake to make Venom a good guy (with the guns and the new look they have basically destroyed Venom altogether). He was truly Spider's best enemy. Same with Doom, Lex, and the rest. Besides: a guy tries to eat your brain or destroy your planet one day and the next you are palling around with him. Nonsensical.

I think it depends on the intentions of the character. Lex Luthor is known for is arrogance and selfishness (didn't he become an orange lantern at one point?), I can't see him becoming a hero. Joker, an agent of chaos, isn't likely to become good either. But some villains should understand the "catch more flies with honey" philosophy.

#12 Posted by Enosisik (1153 posts) - - Show Bio

@/jedixman/.. Some characters are just enjoyable on either side because they have that kind of depth. I'll like Doom and Thanos no matter what side they are on as long as their personalities shine through. The biggest problem is the continuity of it all. You had Doom mass murdering and dissecting Norse gods alive' just a short time ago. Magneto on the other hand did some very evil things early on but they have toned him way down over the years to the point that he Is just an 'anti-villain/anti-hero at any given time.

#13 Posted by MisterMxy (73 posts) - - Show Bio

nah

#14 Posted by blackadamFTW (7867 posts) - - Show Bio

I think you guys know which one I like.

Black Adam is awesome as a villain of the JSA and a member. I'm kind of glad he went back to being a villains, but was still awesome as an hero.

#15 Posted by KingAres109 (1587 posts) - - Show Bio

Same here.Black Adam is easily my fave comic chracter.(As a kid it was mostly hroes but then I grew up..Lol).I also want to see more out of him being a bad a**.Among others!

#16 Posted by soduh2 (868 posts) - - Show Bio

Bump

#17 Posted by Killer_of_trolls (1851 posts) - - Show Bio

@soduh2: Venom. NUFF SAID

#18 Posted by PurpleCandy (831 posts) - - Show Bio

I hate it when a powerful villain becomes a weak good guy

#19 Posted by soduh2 (868 posts) - - Show Bio

@PurpleCandy said:

I hate it when a powerful villain becomes a weak good guy

What about if they became a powerful good guy?

@Killer_of_trolls: Flash wasn't really a villain though.

#20 Posted by PurpleCandy (831 posts) - - Show Bio

@soduh2:

Than that's cool, but chances are 9/10 that powerful villains always turn into weak good guys

#21 Posted by x_29 (2274 posts) - - Show Bio

@JediXMan said:

I personally like Magneto being a good guy; I always saw him as an anti-hero.

Stan lee also thought of Magneto as an anti-hero. He is probably the only villain i have no issue with him siding with the good guys. Plus its not like he is a complete boy scout because of it.

#22 Posted by soduh2 (868 posts) - - Show Bio

Bumping this, there are more we can talk about I'm sure.

#23 Posted by Enosisik (1153 posts) - - Show Bio

Didn't Doomsday become good for a while? That has to be the dumbest one ever. Idk they've done it with a lot of villains but rarely were they ever truly good during that span but rather just a plot device. For example Thanos will work along side Warlock at times, as long as it benefits him in some way. Most classic villains are just pure evil and have no good qualities as a hero.

#24 Posted by Enosisik (1153 posts) - - Show Bio

How many viplains have become official good guys? Hawkeye,Vision, (as part of origin) Quicksilver,Scarlet Witch, (short term bad guys) .. Can't think of many.

#25 Posted by Moonchilde (1601 posts) - - Show Bio

@Enosisik said:

How many viplains have become official good guys? Hawkeye,Vision, (as part of origin) Quicksilver,Scarlet Witch, (short term bad guys) .. Can't think of many.

Black Widow, Emma Frost, Rogue, Gambit, Black Knight, Swordsman, Wonder Man, most (if not all) of the Thunderbolts, Sandman in the 80's & 90's (went evil again cause of bad writing), Venom (Eddie Brock), Kang (as Iron Lad if that counts).

Sabretooth & Juggernaut were both members of the X-Men at one point, though of course are back to evil again. Even Thanos I believe was good at one point.

Plus I'm sure there are dozens of others, and this is just from Marvel. I'm sure the DC list is just as long.

#26 Posted by Enosisik (1153 posts) - - Show Bio

I mean ones that stayed good.. Emma and Wonderman are good ones . Most of the others either switch back and forth or were short term 'origin story' villains without many on panal villainous feats.

#27 Posted by lykopis (10746 posts) - - Show Bio

@PurpleCandy said:

I hate it when a powerful villain becomes a weak good guy

This.

#28 Posted by Lvenger (21905 posts) - - Show Bio

I was rooting for Lex in the Black Ring run written by Paul Cornell. That story made Lex into an awesome anti hero.

#29 Posted by GrandSymbiote94 (11743 posts) - - Show Bio

@PurpleCandy said:

@soduh2:

Than that's cool, but chances are 9/10 that powerful villains always turn into weak good guys

Examples?

#30 Posted by fodigg (6147 posts) - - Show Bio

Villains are often more interesting than heroes, so classic villains sometimes get the "Piccalo/Vegeta" treatment and become anti-hero allies of the protagonist so they can stick around.

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#31 Posted by soduh2 (868 posts) - - Show Bio

Wasn't juggernaut a good guy until Fear itself?

#32 Posted by soduh2 (868 posts) - - Show Bio

@Enosisik said:

Didn't Doomsday become good for a while? That has to be the dumbest one ever.

If it was pulled off the same way apocalypse "became" a good guy (Genesis) it could work.

#33 Posted by FanofUltraman (153 posts) - - Show Bio

The thing is a lot of "villains" are guys who are just a little extreme in their methods. You can look at Magneto and others like we do terrorists. Some people say they're that, others say they're freedom fighters.

What I really don't like though is having a character go back and forth. If he's good, keep him good, vise-versa. If you're going to change him, make it a change for like 15 years or something.

I did like in Trinity how the Riddler's good doppelganger from the Antimatter universe slowly became more and more ruthless in his methods, just as the Riddler was becoming less of a villain. Changing sides is best left to other universes. One of the reasons their exciting to read about is just seeing how different the world is if Lex Luthor is noble or Batman is a crime lord.

#34 Posted by PurpleCandy (831 posts) - - Show Bio

@lykopis said:

@PurpleCandy said:

I hate it when a powerful villain becomes a weak good guy

This.

Exactly if your going to make the villain a weak good guy might aswell kill them off beforehand

#35 Posted by YoungJustice (6924 posts) - - Show Bio

I'm still pissed about Sylar.........

#36 Posted by joshmightbe (24816 posts) - - Show Bio

Anyone ever notice that the only differences from Punisher as originally a Spiderman villain and Punisher as a hero is that he stopped trying to kill Spiderman and doesn't work for hire.

#37 Posted by MadeinBangladesh (8532 posts) - - Show Bio

@Killer_of_trolls said:

@soduh2: Venom. NUFF SAID

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#38 Posted by Inverno (13353 posts) - - Show Bio

Its always like this: if there is a villain cool enough that turns face always gets overmatched and looses more often than he would when he was heel.