Villains becoming good guys

Can it ever be justified as a long term change?

Red Hulk:

A lot of people complain about Red Hulk joining the Avengers. I'd say General Ross (by becoming a Hulk and joining the team) is basically doing what he thinks the Hulk should be doing. Protecting others as a "big gun" secret weapon. His military background makes him a strong team player as well. Although he was extreme, he was never malicious. Therefore he should stay a good guy.

Dr. Doom

Although he had some under handed intentions, I'd say joining an organization like thev Future foundation sort of fits with Doom's style. Proactively educating young minds in how to make a difference in the world... "With Science!" How can Doom not resist taking part? Though, with his history with Reed, I don't see him staying for long. Doom should stay neutral (rather than good or bad).

Magneto:

Lost his mutant powers (went through a lot to get them back). And the Mutant population was severely reduced. It's in Magneto's character to want to work together with the remaining Mutants and maybe rethink his views of humans. In particular, Mags is generally described as being "Malcolm X" to Xavier's "MLK jr", Malcolm X changed his view of non-blacks after a pilgrimage and Magneto has basically done the same. Let him stay good.

What do you think? Any other cases to be discussed?

I think you can look at Batman's villains the same way.

Joker: Despite the "going sane" comic and arguably the "Joker's Millions" episode of Batman the Animated Serires, should stay bad. I don't see him gaining anything by becoming a good guy. Maybe he can float toward chaotic neutrality.

Riddler: I think more people would appreciate him if he were to change his ways. It would help stroke his ego if nothing else. Similar to Lex Luthor just on a smaller scale.

Penguin: He'll probably make more money if he did legitimate business practices.

The ENTIRE point of a comic is some weirdo coming through trying to blow up the city/world. It has been said so often that a char like Bats, Flash, or Spider is defines by his "rogues". Why, then, use the best villians in the history of the char as teammates? Sure you can make up a new guy to attack New York, but chances are - since all the really good schtick has been taken for decades now - he will suck.. at least moreso than the tried and true bad guy who's been around since 1950. I think it's a mistake to make Venom a good guy (with the guns and the new look they have basically destroyed Venom altogether). He was truly Spider's best enemy. Same with Doom, Lex, and the rest. Besides: a guy tries to eat your brain or destroy your planet one day and the next you are palling around with him. Nonsensical.

I personally like Magneto being a good guy; I always saw him as an anti-hero.

I think too many have.

@EdBlank said:

The ENTIRE point of a comic is some weirdo coming through trying to blow up the city/world. It has been said so often that a char like Bats, Flash, or Spider is defines by his "rogues". Why, then, use the best villians in the history of the char as teammates? Sure you can make up a new guy to attack New York, but chances are - since all the really good schtick has been taken for decades now - he will suck.. at least moreso than the tried and true bad guy who's been around since 1950. I think it's a mistake to make Venom a good guy (with the guns and the new look they have basically destroyed Venom altogether). He was truly Spider's best enemy. Same with Doom, Lex, and the rest. Besides: a guy tries to eat your brain or destroy your planet one day and the next you are palling around with him. Nonsensical.

I think it depends on the intentions of the character. Lex Luthor is known for is arrogance and selfishness (didn't he become an orange lantern at one point?), I can't see him becoming a hero. Joker, an agent of chaos, isn't likely to become good either. But some villains should understand the "catch more flies with honey" philosophy.

Bump

@soduh2: Venom. NUFF SAID

I hate it when a powerful villain becomes a weak good guy

@PurpleCandy said:

I hate it when a powerful villain becomes a weak good guy

What about if they became a powerful good guy?

@Killer_of_trolls: Flash wasn't really a villain though.

@soduh2:

Than that's cool, but chances are 9/10 that powerful villains always turn into weak good guys

Bumping this, there are more we can talk about I'm sure.

I was rooting for Lex in the Black Ring run written by Paul Cornell. That story made Lex into an awesome anti hero.

Villains are often more interesting than heroes, so classic villains sometimes get the "Piccalo/Vegeta" treatment and become anti-hero allies of the protagonist so they can stick around.

Wasn't juggernaut a good guy until Fear itself?

@Enosisik said:

Didn't Doomsday become good for a while? That has to be the dumbest one ever.

If it was pulled off the same way apocalypse "became" a good guy (Genesis) it could work.

The thing is a lot of "villains" are guys who are just a little extreme in their methods. You can look at Magneto and others like we do terrorists. Some people say they're that, others say they're freedom fighters.

What I really don't like though is having a character go back and forth. If he's good, keep him good, vise-versa. If you're going to change him, make it a change for like 15 years or something.

I did like in Trinity how the Riddler's good doppelganger from the Antimatter universe slowly became more and more ruthless in his methods, just as the Riddler was becoming less of a villain. Changing sides is best left to other universes. One of the reasons their exciting to read about is just seeing how different the world is if Lex Luthor is noble or Batman is a crime lord.

@lykopis said:

@PurpleCandy said:

I hate it when a powerful villain becomes a weak good guy

This.

Exactly if your going to make the villain a weak good guy might aswell kill them off beforehand

Its always like this: if there is a villain cool enough that turns face always gets overmatched and looses more often than he would when he was heel.