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#1 Posted by Pat_Garret (222 posts) - - Show Bio

All of these seem similar but are they the same or do the have things that make them different from each other.
#2 Posted by JediXMan (29672 posts) - - Show Bio

This is how I see it:
 
Thought speed = Deathstroke. His mind is capable of thinking at superhuman speed, his thoughts keeping up with people like Flash and capable of planning at great speeds.
Combat speed = the speed at which you fight. You're capable of hitting and dodging blows at superhuman speed.
Reaction speed = more or less the same thing as combat speed. Not a huge difference. I'd say it's more about dodging extremely fast projectiles and blows from others, while combat speed usually includes that and the ability to fight at high speeds. So I'd say they're essentially the same in most respects.

#3 Posted by Pokergeist (22351 posts) - - Show Bio

Combat speed is how fast you can move to attack, dodge, block, or counter attack. Can be Muscle Memory.

Reaction Speed is the same.

Thought Speed is how fast you can form a thought. some characters can form a thought at Super speeds.

Reaction/Combat Speed does not require thought, it can be Muscle Memory or habit from skill.

#4 Edited by lightsout (1823 posts) - - Show Bio

Reaction speed is basically unconscious combat speed. It's still the speed at which your body can move on it's own point (torso bending, arms/legs moving, etc). However a blocking reaction could be slower than a conscious punch if it wasn't a ground-in habit. Between people of equal physical gifts, the one who formally trains (in combat) would likely have higher reaction time.

Unless you have an ability boosting it, I would imagine thought-speed isn't that fast, because in Red Son, Superman mocks GL saying that a thought-based weapon is dumb against someone who is faster than thought. (Granted this isn't canon -- but it really does show a problem with GL design. They should be very slow in combat -- at least when conscious constructs are involve (as opposed to the ring's natural shielding where they could probably deliver a super-punch at a fast speed) -- unless the ring's energy can boost their thought-speed (it obviously must boost their perceptions for them to be able to travel at fast speeds)).

#5 Posted by PrinceAragorn1 (16131 posts) - - Show Bio

Thinking speed: speed at which one can think, like Mr. Majestic making/changing the design of some device in fraction of seconds, or The Doctor thinking of ingenious plans in a moment.

Reaction speed: How fast you can react to something, like a speedblitz.

Combat speed: How fast you can fight, that is, attack, defend, block, or move yourself around.

Travelling speed: How fast you go from one point to other, though you may not have necessary reflexes to keep up with it.

Now, speed of thought: This is quite different than what infamous superman quote Imo, what he's saying is he's 10 times faster than speed at which Gl thinks, not actual speed of thought. I can think of one edge of the universe and the other, in probably a millisecond. So my 'thought' went from one edge to other in a moment. but does that mean I can dodge even bullets? Hell no.

It always struck me, so I wanted to say this: Thinking speed, and speed of thought are entirely different. They're like speed of hand of a Gun man and speed of bullet, difference amplified insanely.

#6 Posted by JediXMan (29672 posts) - - Show Bio

Combat speed is how fast you can move to attack, dodge, block, or counter attack. Can be Muscle Memory.

Reaction Speed is the same.

Thought Speed is how fast you can form a thought. some characters can form a thought at Super speeds.

Reaction/Combat Speed does not require thought, it can be Muscle Memory or habit from skill.

Why did you bump this?

#7 Posted by XLR87T3 (2360 posts) - - Show Bio

I have question. If someone moves and reacts 7.5 times faster than a peak human, how do you calculate his/her reaction time? Just so you know, 0.2 seconds is the reaction time for a human.

#8 Posted by lightsout (1823 posts) - - Show Bio

Now, speed of thought: This is quite different than what infamous superman quote Imo, what he's saying is he's 10 times faster than speed at which Gl thinks, not actual speed of thought. I can think of one edge of the universe and the other, in probably a millisecond. So my 'thought' went from one edge to other in a moment. but does that mean I can dodge even bullets? Hell no.

It always struck me, so I wanted to say this: Thinking speed, and speed of thought are entirely different. They're like speed of hand of a Gun man and speed of bullet, difference amplified insanely.

I'm not exactly sure what you're getting at (/how you're differentiating them), but IMO Superman was saying that he literally could move faster than the speed at which Hal's brain could process & make decisions (the actual biological speed of electo-chemical signals being sent around, which lead to Hal's movements or in this case, the action of his ring). Just how visual perception is based on how quickly the eye received light and how quickly it sends signals to corresponding areas of the brain, which then travel to various areas related to any decision making). Superman has the physical ability close, say, a 10-foot gap between he & Hal faster than Hal's brain can process any information and think of some action to have his ring carry out & stop Superman (and Superman could then just remove Hal's ring by force).

#9 Edited by PrinceAragorn1 (16131 posts) - - Show Bio

@princearagorn1 said:

Now, speed of thought: This is quite different than what infamous superman quote Imo, what he's saying is he's 10 times faster than speed at which Gl thinks, not actual speed of thought. I can think of one edge of the universe and the other, in probably a millisecond. So my 'thought' went from one edge to other in a moment. but does that mean I can dodge even bullets? Hell no.

It always struck me, so I wanted to say this: Thinking speed, and speed of thought are entirely different. They're like speed of hand of a Gun man and speed of bullet, difference amplified insanely.

I'm not exactly sure what you're getting at (/how you're differentiating them), but IMO Superman was saying that he literally could move faster than the speed at which Hal's brain could process & make decisions (the actual biological speed of electo-chemical signals being sent around, which lead to Hal's movements or in this case, the action of his ring). Just how visual perception is based on how quickly the eye received light and how quickly it sends signals to corresponding areas of the brain, which then travel to various areas related to any decision making). Superman has the physical ability close, say, a 10-foot gap between he & Hal faster than Hal's brain can process any information and think of some action to have his ring carry out & stop Superman (and Superman could then just remove Hal's ring by force).

You are exactly right. That's what I was trying to say. Superman is faster than hal's thinking process, or hal's thinking speed. But that doesn't make him faster than thought. It's simply hal's thinking speed.

I did explain what I meant, I mean, thought speed is literally faster than anything, even a full sf using wall, as he can always think of himself going faster.. so technically, speed of your thought is always going to be higher than you, no matter who you are.

#10 Edited by lightsout (1823 posts) - - Show Bio

@princearagorn1: Ah. You're really splitting hairs then (/getting very philosophical about it all), haha. I mean, to me thinking about going faster is a concept or idea (the same way imagining that I will start to build something, or to go somewhere is. Ex: Me imaging sitting on the outside of a speeding fighter jet (a very fast thing), has no speed - it's just an idea). It's not a thing that has actual movement or measurable speed. A thought as a physical thing - the chemical signals - DOES have a speed however.

#11 Edited by SNascimento (438 posts) - - Show Bio

They are all connected but they are not the same. You cannot block hundreads of bullets like WW without having a brian that can process information much faster than a normal human, for example.

This is weird if you think about it. Why not Superman gets super bored by talking to people? I mean, in the time a normal person elaborate one answer he could have read a book or something.

#12 Edited by XLR87T3 (2360 posts) - - Show Bio
@xlr87t3 said:

I have question. If someone moves and reacts 7.5 times faster than a peak human, how do you calculate his/her reaction time? Just so you know, 0.2 seconds is the reaction time for a human.

I take back that question. You react at 28.66666667 milliseconds. I was just figuring out the reaction speed of the Dragonborn during Slow-Time shout (without the Quick Reflexes perk). Now I just need to find out how to calculate the reaction time of someone who can react to objects moving at hypersonic speeds...

#13 Edited by AnyWhichWayButUp (760 posts) - - Show Bio

@xlr87t3: 5.733333334 milliseconds or somewhere relative to that

#14 Posted by XLR87T3 (2360 posts) - - Show Bio
#15 Posted by PrinceAragorn1 (16131 posts) - - Show Bio
#16 Posted by XLR87T3 (2360 posts) - - Show Bio

Can someone tell me how fast someone's reflexes are based on their reaction time? For example, Master Chief has 20 millisecond reaction speed. So does that mean he react to objects moving, I am guessing, sub-sonic speeds?

#17 Posted by lightsout (1823 posts) - - Show Bio

@xlr87t3 said:

Can someone tell me how fast someone's reflexes are based on their reaction time? For example, Master Chief has 20 millisecond reaction speed. So does that mean he react to objects moving, I am guessing, sub-sonic speeds?

If the scenario was noticing an object was going to hit him and dodging it, I believe "20ms reaction speed" means that it is 20 miliseconds between when the visual information reaches his brain and a signal is sent to his muscles to activate. At least this is how it's meant on shows I've watched testing various sports actions/movements. Like someone's time "off the block" sprinting, etc.

#18 Edited by XLR87T3 (2360 posts) - - Show Bio

@lightsout: So getting a head start in reactions is the same as super-speed reflexes? Or just perception speed?

#19 Edited by lightsout (1823 posts) - - Show Bio

@xlr87t3: I think so? lol. Perception speed would be like, if I saw things in slow-mo and could move my hands to grab an object that seems fast to everyone else, but in my perception I'm moving my arm at a normal speed, etc. reflexes would be like if someone threw a tennis ball at me from the side and I noticed it in my peripherals, the visual cue sends a signal to my brain, once I "notice" it, a signal is sent to my arm muscles to move my arm/hand and grab the ball before it hits me......if any of that made sense (I think with a visual aide it would be easier to illustrate).

#20 Edited by XLR87T3 (2360 posts) - - Show Bio

@lightsout

: But what if you can't move out of the way of a bullet that seems to be going 20 miles an hour, because your body can't move as fast as your perception? Also, how much faster(than a human) do you think this character's reflexes are moving in this video?

#21 Posted by lightsout (1823 posts) - - Show Bio

@xlr87t3 said:

@lightsout: But what if you can't move out of the way of a bullet that seems to be going 20 miles an hour, because your body can't move as fast as your perception?

In that scenario, I would just have to imagine they'd be somewhat proportional. Whatever biology or exterior power source that's allowing you to perceive things "faster" (/more easily) than a normal human would also be affecting your muscle movements (and just the electro-chemical signals around your body in general).

#22 Edited by XLR87T3 (2360 posts) - - Show Bio

@lightsout: If your movement speed is proportional to your perception speed, then how do you calculate how fast one is moving?

#23 Edited by lightsout (1823 posts) - - Show Bio

@xlr87t3: I'm not sure exactly what you're asking

Also - just saw the video you added to the earlier response. I really have no clue. I don't know how fast his enemies are going (whether them being non-human made them any faster than human and even then it'd be a huge assumption). Without having at least 1 point of scientific data, it's really impossible to attach numbers beyond just saying "super human reaction speed", etc. A statistical-enthusiast myself, I appreciate the enthusiasm --- but with a lot of fiction/fantasy you just have to accept the whimsical nature of it (sans a scientific breakdown) because the people who created these things had almost zero math/science in mind when doing so.

#24 Posted by lorbo (1541 posts) - - Show Bio

Due to the science of quick mental/physical reflexes, I actually prefer characters to have other powers as a substitute. Like it was said, such reflexes should make life boring since your always waay ahead of everyone else reflex wise. So instead I prefer to giver characters energy shielding or enable them to be extra durable.

#25 Posted by XLR87T3 (2360 posts) - - Show Bio

@lightsout: I take back my question; the character moves about 5 time faster than normal ( this is proven when the game glitches and time slows for like a minute). So if that is the case, then If I wanted to find out the Dragonborn/Dovahkiin's reaction time, I divide 215 milliseconds by 7.5 (Slow Time shout) to get 28.666666667 milliseconds. Then I divide that number by 5 (Quick Reflexes perk) to get 5.733333333 milliseconds. If the Dragonborn's reaction time is 5.733333333 milliseconds, then that will mean he/she has reflexes 37.5 times faster than humanly possible. In other words, the Dragonborn is as fast as Spider-Man!

#26 Posted by XLR87T3 (2360 posts) - - Show Bio

I just remembered that without MJOLNIR armor John-117 only has reflexes 300% faster than human, or 4 times faster. That means that technically, Master Chief is slightly slower than Dovahkiin (without the use of the Slow Time shout).

#27 Edited by Cara_Hunter (3687 posts) - - Show Bio

@xlr87t3: Your logic is flawed, master Chief is always at 300% reflexes

Dovahkiin is only fast with slow time however he still needs to say the words in which before that happens he still has normal reaction time.

#28 Posted by segamarvel (570 posts) - - Show Bio

I'm confused. So if spidey has 40x human reflexes. Does that mean he moves as fast as his perceptions? Even when he speedblitz firelord (I know bad example) it mentioned his reflexes being the cause for the speedblitz. Now here's the part that messes with me. When he speedblitzs he is moving around his opponent... how does this not count as short distance travel speed... or is that what combat speed really is?

#30 Edited by senglord (1332 posts) - - Show Bio

just letting everyone know that peak human reaction time in real life is officialy .01s

#31 Posted by segamarvel (570 posts) - - Show Bio

@princearagorn1: Hold on. Isn't Reflexes (combat speed) still a Form of movement speed? Lets say My reflexes are 10 times faster then average. Does that mean all my actions are 10x faster EXCEPT for running? Does this mean I can still sidestep at 10x human speed? How bout pouncing, jumping, leaning? Aren't all these movements a small form of short distance travel speed? If I instinctively dodge a landmine by jumping on reflex then would that movement be 10x faster? I wont be standing in the same spot anymore (thus I cleared a small distance) technically but I did it by not exactly "running" but by any of the other actions earlier mentioned. Am I on the right track so far?

#32 Posted by ilikedonuts (1969 posts) - - Show Bio

thought speeds how fast ya think, combat speed is how fast you can move in a fight, an' reaction speed's kinda like combat speed

#33 Edited by segamarvel (570 posts) - - Show Bio

I'm confused. Does super reflexes give you faster movement speed in general EXCEPT running speed? If my reflexes were 10x faster and all I had to do was sidestep a fast projectile wouldn't that mean I still technically cleared a small distance of a couple feet to dodge it? Is this how enhanced reflexes explain those moments of "speed bursts" over short distances other characters have? For example when Spidey in "grim hunt" flips from point a to point b, is that because of his reflexes or the speed that allows him to run faster then us? How do I differ between the two movements of combat distance and travel distance? When Logan Leans to the left at blur speeds is that because of speed based on reflexes? I'm only asking because he still technically covered a small distance doing that. Or finally when Spidey uses his reflexes to "dazzle" the Hulk as if he were everywhere at once. I noticed he is covering small distances by veering, leaning, darting out of Hulks way instead of just straight up running. So does this mean Spideys "pouncing" speed is faster then a bullet (40x combat speed does sound close to that level)? This isn't just a statement, it's a question. I have been trying to wrap my head around this concept for a while now. Do any of the scans I used fit the definition I'm looking for? I'm not asking this to sound stupid. For all I know it should be easy to understand. But it just boggles my mind that they can move this fast over short distances in combat (although not by running) and yet their overall travel speed is much slower. It's such a huge gap difference that I feel the need to ask someone elses opinion just so I can stop questioning this concept.

#34 Posted by Supermanwithatan01 (3486 posts) - - Show Bio

I am pretty sure Thought speed would be the ability to perceive something and acknowledge it mentally, while not necessarily capable of defending/protecting ones self. Has nothing to do with averting something, simply recognizing it and processing the he sense(s) in your mind as quickly as you can. So it's basically a voluntary action for the most part.

Combat speed is simply the speed at which you fight or defend yourself/someone within a given area and/or situation. Focuses primarily on your physical ability to fight/defend/save someone/something. Combat speed relies heavily on reaction time + thought speed. Voluntary.

Reaction time is the ability to literally "begin". Essentially it's quickness of mind and body, however you can react to something without perceiving what it is completely. Mostly, involuntary.

#35 Edited by segamarvel (570 posts) - - Show Bio

@supermanwithatan01: I'm just asking for a clear answer for my earlier statement. Do reflexes enhance your MOVEMENT speed (including short distances but no sprinting) and other actions in general?

#36 Edited by Supermanwithatan01 (3486 posts) - - Show Bio
#37 Posted by segamarvel (570 posts) - - Show Bio

So if I wanted to wash dishes or push buttons or simply jump away, it would all be faster based on reflexes?

#38 Posted by Supermanwithatan01 (3486 posts) - - Show Bio

@segamarvel: reflexes are involuntary reactions, so they would "enhance" your quickness at something. But your speed at a voluntary chore like washing dishes is not a reaction, it's an action.

#39 Posted by segamarvel (570 posts) - - Show Bio

@supermanwithatan01: And that's why it's so confusing. In one of the scans MJ says Peter could use his reflexes to help clean up the apartment. and the way he was moving around the Hulk makes it seem like he can move that fast without leaving his brain behind. The fact that he makes after images while still joking around confuses me. If his reflexes extend into his thoughts and voluntary actions to a degree (not running) is this how they are describing it or am I just interpreting it wrong?

#40 Posted by Supermanwithatan01 (3486 posts) - - Show Bio

@segamarvel: Well Peter's spidersense is actually different. Basically his spidersense enhances his reaction time because it borders on precog and doesn't require his focus or even mental reflex. Combat speed is just how fast you did something, reaction speed is literally the time it takes for your mind/body to recognize a situation/thing(?) and voluntarily/involuntarily react to it in some way. That's why it's so important in comics because it's essentially written like time is slowness down in that fraction of a second.

#42 Edited by segamarvel (570 posts) - - Show Bio

@supermanwithatan01: So was that a yes or a no? If Peter wanted to throw a punch "voluntarily", would it still be at 40x human speed? When I asked this questions I wasn't referring to his spider-sense. At all. I was strictly asking about his movements/reflexes on their own.

#43 Edited by segamarvel (570 posts) - - Show Bio

Skip to about 8:10

How was it possible for Peter to not only see them in slow motion but have his movements seem unaffected compared to the colledge students? He moved as if he was moving in normal time while the other guys were slow and sluggish looking in comparison to not just how he reacted, but how fast he moved. On top of that you can clearly tell Peter's actions were voluntary by the look on his face as if his thoughts were fast enough to keep up. He cleared a small distance by jumping over them. And yet he doesn't move even remotely this fast over longer distances or in sprints. Is it just me or does this scene make it look like Peter's combat speed, reaction time, and thought speed are all on the same level ratio? Does this mean that comic spidey really can move faster then bullets whenever he "jumps" or moves to the other side of his opponent short distances in combat? Because if his movement speed in combat really is 40x then he should technically be throwing at least 40 punches in under one second.

#44 Posted by Bat_Girl_CC (1551 posts) - - Show Bio

@pat_garret:

Yup...they are different things!

Some peak-human characters while slower than some meta-humans, can react, attack, and dodge faster than some metas, thanks to their skill, and that's comabt speed.

Flash is all about speed, and he can do all kinds of crazy stuff, but he doesn't count xD

#50 Posted by segamarvel (570 posts) - - Show Bio

When I first saw this scan of Superman complimenting Wonder Womans reflexes simply because of how fast she jumped and kicked at him, I thought this: WTF does that have to do with reflexes (and movement speed technically covering short distance)? That jump attack was clearly voluntary on her part and not a reflexive action. If she can control her actions willingly this much at this speed then why shouldn't it be possible for her to simply "function" at this speed without even resorting to running? Why shouldn't characters like Spiderman use this speed willingly just to do something as easy as a house chore without resorting to fighting? I'm not reffering to travel speed (running) though. Just everything else in your actions.