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#1 Posted by ImTheDamnBatman (3548 posts) - - Show Bio

I don't believe PIS or CIS exists, and here's why: These are comic book characters. They are not real. Therefore, if a writer portrays a certain character doing something you consider "PIS" or "CIS", it doesn't matter because if it's canon THAT'S WHAT HE/SHE DID. It doesn't matter if you don't like it or agree with it, if it's in a canon comic it happened and they are capable of that feat.

#2 Posted by AweSam (7360 posts) - - Show Bio
#3 Posted by Jotham (4564 posts) - - Show Bio

Technically, but things that are canon don't always agree. It's not like a historical record or something.

#4 Posted by Lvenger (17855 posts) - - Show Bio

Obviously but it's necessary for the sake of whatever it is people are talking about.

#5 Posted by RedheadedAtrocitus (6885 posts) - - Show Bio

I can see your point on this sure.

#6 Posted by Prodigy P (155 posts) - - Show Bio

You're basically saying that there is no such thing as bad writing. Or in the very least, that misrepresentation of a characters' abilities is impossible.

Really, now?

#7 Posted by AweSam (7360 posts) - - Show Bio

@Prodigy P said:

You're basically saying that there is no such thing as bad writing. Or in the very least, that misrepresentation of a characters' abilities is impossible.

Really, now?

He's saying, call it what you want, but it happened.

#8 Posted by JediXMan (29245 posts) - - Show Bio
#9 Posted by BlackArmor (6134 posts) - - Show Bio

On a certain level I agree with you. But if Batman beats Superman to a bloody pulp using nothing but a banana, I don't care if it's canon or not that is PIS

#10 Posted by jwalser3 (4793 posts) - - Show Bio

Can give an example? I can't think of any.

#11 Posted by Blood1991 (8098 posts) - - Show Bio

@BlackArmor said:

On a certain level I agree with you. But if Batman beats Superman to a bloody pulp using nothing but a banana, I don't care if it's canon or not that is PIS

Pretty much my feelings. I can handle a writer stretching a character abit, but some things are just WTF.

#12 Posted by AweSam (7360 posts) - - Show Bio

@JediXMan said:

No PIS, you say?

Deus ex Machina would like a word with you, sir.

Two very different things, relatively speaking.

#13 Posted by jwalser3 (4793 posts) - - Show Bio

@BlackArmor said:

On a certain level I agree with you. But if Batman beats Superman to a bloody pulp using nothing but a banana, I don't care if it's canon or not that is PIS

This

#14 Posted by ImTheDamnBatman (3548 posts) - - Show Bio

What i'm saying is you might not agree that Batman could do it (I think that's absurd too, he couldn't do that imo), but the point is if it's a canon story, it happened whether you agree with it or not.

#15 Posted by Prodigy P (155 posts) - - Show Bio

@AweSam said:

@Prodigy P said:

You're basically saying that there is no such thing as bad writing. Or in the very least, that misrepresentation of a characters' abilities is impossible.

Really, now?

He's saying, call it what you want, but it happened.

Oh definitely, but some things are just so untenable that once they happen, they should be wept over, buried deep within memory, relentlessly denied, only to ever be spoken of in hushed voices.

For reference, see AvX.

#16 Posted by ImTheDamnBatman (3548 posts) - - Show Bio

@Prodigy P But techincally, if it was canon and since these are fake characters, you could bring it up as a valid point, no matter how absurd it is.

#17 Posted by JediXMan (29245 posts) - - Show Bio

@AweSam said:

@JediXMan said:

No PIS, you say?

Deus ex Machina would like a word with you, sir.

Two very different things, relatively speaking.

No, it's not. Deus ex Machina is a literary concept that involves something randomly resolving the conflict of a story. PIS is when a character does something unexpected or random to resolve conflict.

It's the same thing.

#18 Posted by AweSam (7360 posts) - - Show Bio

@JediXMan said:

@AweSam said:

@JediXMan said:

No PIS, you say?

Deus ex Machina would like a word with you, sir.

Two very different things, relatively speaking.

No, it's not. Deus ex Machina is a literary concept that involves something randomly resolving the conflict of a story. PIS is when a character does something unexpected or random to resolve conflict.

It's the same thing.

PIS: Darth Maul standing there while Obi-wan jumped over him, the cut him in half.

Deus ex Machina: Death Star's exhaust port.

#19 Posted by JediXMan (29245 posts) - - Show Bio

@AweSam:

Tecnically, no, that's CIS on Maul's part for not finishing Obi-Wan off.

The Death Star thing can also be called PIS.

#20 Posted by AweSam (7360 posts) - - Show Bio

@JediXMan: Still, PIS usually refers to a character doing something out of the ordinary that would be considered stupid for them. Deus ex Machina would be Superman coming back to life just in time to save the day when all hope is lost.

#21 Posted by JediXMan (29245 posts) - - Show Bio

@AweSam:

No. You don't seem to understand what Deus ex Machina is. It's something that comes out of nowhere to resolve conflict. It's not Superman cutting loose - it's Superman back in the Silver Age when he had a new power every week that resolved everything. Case in point: Mass Effect 3, a literal use of Deus ex Machina.

#22 Posted by AweSam (7360 posts) - - Show Bio

@JediXMan: Actually, I know exactly what it is. I'm just having a hard time finding a good example.

#23 Edited by JediXMan (29245 posts) - - Show Bio

@AweSam said:

@JediXMan: Actually, I know exactly what it is. I'm just having a hard time finding a good example.

Mass Effect 3 works. Arguably the use of the Ultimate Nullifier to stop Galactus back in the day was. The Superman thing I mentioned.

They're all PIS and use of the Deus ex Machina.

I also realize you like to play Devil's Advocate and so I am not sure how serious you are.

#24 Posted by AweSam (7360 posts) - - Show Bio

@JediXMan: As of this second, I'm very serious. I'm referring to what the OP was talking about. was talking about (as far as I can tell) PIS most commonly used in the forums (ex: Batman punching Spectre, Deathstroke fighting the JLA). Although PIS and Deus ex Machina are somewhat (in a way) one in the same, he wasn't thinking about everything it involves, just single characters doing something out of the ordinary.

#25 Posted by ImTheDamnBatman (3548 posts) - - Show Bio

@AweSam Yes.

#26 Posted by JediXMan (29245 posts) - - Show Bio

@AweSam:

Very well. I understand; in concept. PIS and Deus ex Machina are the same. But PIS is a.... sub-category in Deus ex Machina. Understandable.

I still disagree with the OP, but I understand.

#27 Posted by DocFatalis (1419 posts) - - Show Bio

I completely disagree with the op: there are character depictions that make the story stupid or irrelevant, and it doesn't only apply to comics.

If for example Reed Richard is being depicted as a permanent dumbass who can't tell a computer from a toaster and hates his family, it is very unlikely to contribute to a good FF story. Same If Sherlock Holmes is totally incapable to understand anyone's background or behavior.

#28 Posted by AweSam (7360 posts) - - Show Bio

@DocFatalis said:

I completely disagree with the op: there are character depictions that make the story stupid or irrelevant, and it doesn't only apply to comics.

If for example Reed Richard is being depicted as a permanent dumbass who can't tell a computer from a toaster and hates his family, it is very unlikely to contribute to a good FF story. Same If Sherlock Holmes is totally incapable to understand anyone's background or behavior.

You misunderstand what PIS is. PIS would be Sherlock missing an obvious clue that even the reader caught, not becoming mentally challenged for no reason.

#29 Edited by Enosisik (1153 posts) - - Show Bio

There is deffinitly PIS/wis in comics but it's not nearly as common as some cry baby fans would lead you to believe. Sometimes it is needed. I think there is more CIS (Character induced stupidity) than anything.

#30 Posted by ImTheDamnBatman (3548 posts) - - Show Bio

I don't think some of you understand. If it's canon, it's true in the comic world. it doesn't matter if you disagree with it, it happened.

#31 Posted by Prodigy P (155 posts) - - Show Bio

@ImTheDamnBatman said:

@Prodigy P But techincally, if it was canon and since these are fake characters, you could bring it up as a valid point, no matter how absurd it is.

@ImTheDamnBatman said:

I don't think some of you understand. If it's canon, it's true in the comic world. it doesn't matter if you disagree with it, it happened.

I understand what you're saying. If it happened, it happened. No disagreements on that.

However, you titled the thread "There is no PIS or CIS", the "S" part of which stands for stupidity. The point is that something may be canon, but that does not excuse the fact that it is ridiculous, improbable or a cheap plot device.

#32 Posted by JediXMan (29245 posts) - - Show Bio

@ImTheDamnBatman said:

I don't think some of you understand. If it's canon, it's true in the comic world. it doesn't matter if you disagree with it, it happened.

That's what the "S" is for.

#33 Posted by AtPhantom (14521 posts) - - Show Bio

@JediXMan said:

@AweSam:

Very well. I understand; in concept. PIS and Deus ex Machina are the same. But PIS is a.... sub-category in Deus ex Machina. Understandable.

I still disagree with the OP, but I understand.

Um, no. They're actually pretty different. Deux ex machina simply means the plot is resolved in a way that had no previous foreshadowing or connection to the plot. PIS means the writer is not consistent with the characters and plot devices as they were previously established. Deux Ex Machina isn't bad per se, it's just one of those tropes that is generally hard to pull off well. PIS is generally completely bad. And contrary to OP's assertion, it totally exists.

#34 Posted by StuckOnEuropa (118 posts) - - Show Bio

It's too bad bad writing exists.

#35 Posted by ImTheDamnBatman (3548 posts) - - Show Bio

What i meant was saying a canon event was "PIS" or "CIS" is not a valid argument when discussing battles.

#36 Posted by DocFatalis (1419 posts) - - Show Bio

@AweSam said:

@DocFatalis said:

I completely disagree with the op: there are character depictions that make the story stupid or irrelevant, and it doesn't only apply to comics.

If for example Reed Richard is being depicted as a permanent dumbass who can't tell a computer from a toaster and hates his family, it is very unlikely to contribute to a good FF story. Same If Sherlock Holmes is totally incapable to understand anyone's background or behavior.

You misunderstand what PIS is. PIS would be Sherlock missing an obvious clue that even the reader caught, not becoming mentally challenged for no reason.

Yeah, I know what you mean, but I was taking extreme examples to lay the emphasis on the stupidity of some of the things we witnessed in the past, such as Ka-Zar beating Thanos or T'challa doing the SS an armlock. Those moments are so ridiculous they give you the feeling we are addressing different characters and in the end they make the stories awfully boring. We most of the time follow one guy or an other because of his characteristics, if you radically change those for no apparent reason, it becomes seriously less interesting.

#37 Posted by AtPhantom (14521 posts) - - Show Bio

@ImTheDamnBatman said:

What i meant was saying a canon event was "PIS" or "CIS" is not a valid argument when discussing battles.

Irrelevant. Nobody denies the canonicity of those events. We simply argue that those events are not consistent with how the characters normally act and so should be disregarded.

#38 Edited by Manwhohaseverything (1780 posts) - - Show Bio
@ImTheDamnBatman: The hardest part about battles, and why I usually stray from that forum, is character inconsistency. In some issue, Hulk survives nuclear explosions. But one time Spider-man stopped him by tossing a car at him. Well, those can't BOTH be accurate descriptions of Hulk's durability. Therefore,one tends to think that at least one of those must be PIS.
#39 Posted by AweSam (7360 posts) - - Show Bio

@AtPhantom said:

@ImTheDamnBatman said:

What i meant was saying a canon event was "PIS" or "CIS" is not a valid argument when discussing battles.

Irrelevant. Nobody denies the canonicity of those events. We simply argue that those events are not consistent with how the characters normally act and so should be disregarded.

He's trying to say they're valid feats. Under certain circumstances, I agree with him.

#40 Posted by AtPhantom (14521 posts) - - Show Bio

@AweSam said:

He's trying to say they're valid feats. Under certain circumstances, I agree with him.

And I'm trying to say that there's a body of evidence contradicting those feats. That's why they're PIS in the first place.

#41 Posted by AweSam (7360 posts) - - Show Bio

@AtPhantom said:

@AweSam said:

He's trying to say they're valid feats. Under certain circumstances, I agree with him.

And I'm trying to say that there's a body of evidence contradicting those feats. That's why they're PIS in the first place.

It happened which means it's possible that it can happen again.

#42 Posted by Quintus_Knightfall (84356 posts) - - Show Bio

PIS and CIS do not "discount" that a feat happened. We as the reader may discount the feat cause we're able to look at the overall history of a character and say "yup, that was stupid."

Moderator
#43 Posted by Rod_The_Blade_Star (53 posts) - - Show Bio

See I like a lot of people see a nugget of truth to what you say, we should not wine that strange things happened in a world of god, spandex clad heroes, and aliens. However here is how what you are saying sounds to me. You are playing a FPS online. You have the same gun as your opponent. Both of you have the same size clip and star shooting. Your opponent is able to fire for 2x as long as you just because. It was not a glitch it was programmed that way to randomly give more bullets to one person if two players have the same gun. Or you are playing D&D and the Dungeon Master just stats saying that his character gets extra rolls and bonus stats, because he says so in the middle of the game (Don not play D&D so I might be wrong to say this). Yeah they are fake worlds and does not really matter in the grand scheme of things, but if people like the programmers writers do not respect the people who make these worlds possible then it ruins the experience. There need to be rules and certainties to ensure that there is some sort of dramatic tension. If writers don't take you seriously why take them seriously.

#44 Posted by Mercy_ (92256 posts) - - Show Bio

I disagree.

Moderator
#45 Posted by AtPhantom (14521 posts) - - Show Bio

@AweSam said:

It happened which means it's possible that it can happen again.

That won't make it right either. Ignoring continuity is ignoring continuity. Just because something is on panel doesn't mean we have to take it at face value. We debate in battle threads by establishing a power level for a character out of its most consistent feats. To use inconsistent feats would make characters impossible to gauge and make the entire battle threads pointless. To make it clear once again, we're not saying something didn't happen. We're saying it shouldn't have happened, and citing the character's previous appearances as the reason why.

Inconsistencies, in a world worked upon by dozens of writers and built over decades, are inevitable. This is our way of working around them.

#46 Posted by Quintus_Knightfall (84356 posts) - - Show Bio
@AtPhantom said:

@AweSam said:

It happened which means it's possible that it can happen again.

That won't make it right either. Ignoring continuity is ignoring continuity. Just because something is on panel doesn't mean we have to take it at face value. We debate in battle threads by establishing a power level for a character out of its most consistent feats. To use inconsistent feats would make characters impossible to gauge and make the entire battle threads pointless. To make it clear once again, we're not saying something didn't happen. We're saying it shouldn't have happened, and citing the character's previous appearances as the reason why.

Inconsistencies, in a world worked upon by dozens of writers and built over decades, are inevitable. This is our way of working around them.


Moderator
#47 Posted by AweSam (7360 posts) - - Show Bio

@AtPhantom said:

@AweSam said:

It happened which means it's possible that it can happen again.

That won't make it right either. Ignoring continuity is ignoring continuity. Just because something is on panel doesn't mean we have to take it at face value. We debate in battle threads by establishing a power level for a character out of its most consistent feats. To use inconsistent feats would make characters impossible to gauge and make the entire battle threads pointless. To make it clear once again, we're not saying something didn't happen. We're saying it shouldn't have happened, and citing the character's previous appearances as the reason why.

Inconsistencies, in a world worked upon by dozens of writers and built over decades, are inevitable. This is our way of working around them.

You're saying it shouldn't have happened. Everyone pretends like it's just a figment of their imaginations.

#48 Posted by AweSam (7360 posts) - - Show Bio

@Gambler: About what?

#49 Posted by ImTheDamnBatman (3548 posts) - - Show Bio

So if someone shot you, you would just tell yourself it didn't happen because it "shouldn't" have happened?

#50 Posted by Fuchsia_Nightingale (10180 posts) - - Show Bio

I don't mind them, stupid stuff happens, just forget it and move on.