Posted by arnoldoaad (1007 posts) - - Show Bio

I am planning on making a huge blogpost about what i feel about the new 52 after all this time but first i had this idea that might be interesting exploring, i want wanted to make a top 10 of the things that are the most annoying in the new 52, and maybe i will do in the future but this time i will just focus in specific characters that have just been utter failures lately.

though usually in this kind of post you might expect me to make Barbara Gordon as Victimgirl my #1 choice for worst reimaginated character, but i have already talk to much about her so i want to explore other options to keep my rants fresh.

What exactly do i mean by reinvention? well by that i mean characters that are by all means and purposes in no way the same characters(i.e. Barbara Gordon) that they were before the new 52 and were given a new intention concept or purpose.

4- Captain Atom

Captain Atom

I know for a fact that in may ways Alan Moore was inspired by Captain Atom in order to create Dr Manhattan

to be specific, Moore was inspired by THIS

In turn the new Atom turn after Watchmen took a lot of liberties of its own

Before Captain Atom was a soldier stranded out of his time because of an experiment imposed punishment for a crime he didnt commit with powers he could barely understand, his skin was shielded with a alien metal that gives him strength, durability and the capacity to flight and energy powers.

The new Captain Atom is Jesus.

he is immortal, he cures cancer and he died for your sins, all hail the space jesus.

ok seriously the new Atom is for all practical purposes the same as Dr Manhattan, which is really ironic when you think about it since now the original is copying the same product that it inspired, even though i know many will admit that the new Manhattan is interesting, it is just not Captain Atom.

3- Shayera Hall, Hawkwoman

One-dimensional doesnt even begin to describe the new Shayera Hall, she is completely empty of personality, she is mostly based of cliche and even sexist ideas.

the new Hawkwoman is the sister of Corsar, the leader of Thanagar, she is also the lover of Carter Hall, The Savage Hawkman, and all goes nice and easy until Corsar starts acting as a crazy tyrant who wants to use the Nth metal for evil reasons, which ends with Carter "Savagely" attacking Corsar and then fleeing to Earth.

Now this conflict has kind of Shakespearean in the sense that now Shayera needs to search inside her own soul for answers as she tries to capture her own true love for the crime of killing her own brother and king, and might even result in good drama and character development if it wasnt because this character was introduced by Robert Liefeld who has as much understanding of Shakespeare as a Neanderthal would.

Instead the "death" of Corsair flips a switch inside Shayera's brain that transforms her from loving partner mode to vengeful biatch mode in a manner of seconds and proceds to hunt down Carter like a dog showing absolutely no conflict, remorse or any emotion whatsoever.

what is worst of this change to villain is that she really sucks at it, failing at capturing Carter at every step until she gets help from...

spoilerCORSAR, who is alive

... for some reason

but of course now this development "unflips" her Biatch mode and in the last issue(#16)she tries to save Carter at the cost of her own life.

Now it is unclear if Shayera's dead is permanent but who would really care at all with a girl like this.

2- Lady Shiva

...

my god, just look at that costume, how is this in any way and form anything like the old Lady Shiva?, this is not Lady Shiva, this is Armadillogirl.

in case you didnt knew the old Lady Shiva, this is Lady Shiva

Lady Shiva

Lady Shiva is the 3rd best fighter in the entire DC Universe, only bested by Bronze Tiger and Richard Dragon, she is the mother of Cassandra Cain the best Batgirl ever and also is one of the deadliest assassins in the world and has defeated in combat even Batman.

and the new Shiva is just a bland version of that.

I generally dont pay that much attention to redesign in costume, primarily cause in most cases is only superficial changes, but here is way more than superficial is a radical change in concept and for what exactly im not sure.

the new Shiva is younger to the point that now she has the same age as Nightwing, which is like 21+, but she also defeated Batman when he was just starting to have Dick as robin which is kind of hard to digest.

1- Powergirl

Kiss Kiss

I like to think that the comic fandom has always kinda made jokes on Powergirl at her own expense, mainly because she had a hole in her costume that has no other purpose than allowing us to see her boobs, not necessarily something positive but neither negative, there are many funny bits about powergirl(pun intended) and it has been well explored, for a long time Powergirl's own ongoing was a comedy.

and a really funny and enjoyable one.

but Neither of those things meant that Character WAS A JOKE

now it is one XD

The problem of Powergirl goes beyond her costume, is her personality, even though she was a very sexualized character and just really sexy, she didnt really had a sexualized personality, she was fun and loyal and heroic.

Now the new powergirl is hypersexual, in Worlds Finest most of the flashbacks to her time in E0 practically start her making a sexpun or saying how she wants to sleep with a bunch of guys, this happens in practically every issue, there is a huge difference between a sexually liberated woman and a nymphomaniac and honestly Starfire got a bigger complains for much less.

It doesnt help the fact that her own costume gets torn apart as a running joke on practically every issue, the problem is that its never funny.

see, here is actually meant to be funny and it is.

if this tried to be funny, It Failed.

and if that wasnt enough, she is just very mean spirited, she has a constant feeling of apathy for anything that doesnt involve E2, which leads her to say things like this:

and do things like what she did in the Mr Terrific comic, in which she discovers that Michael Holt is investigating how to travel through dimensions, so she befriends him and sleeps with him only to use his toys when the time was right in which then she subsequently robs his investigation.

this is really not a role model for anyone and a waste of a good character.

End of Blog Post

Check out my Personal Blog lets-talk-about-comics.blogspot.com

#1 Posted by Bogey (929 posts) - - Show Bio

I'd add Lobo. He looked really awful.

#2 Posted by Aronmorales (9434 posts) - - Show Bio

Well I think these are pretty solid reviews, bout then again I haven't read a single issue of the New 52, so if there is any counter arguments to be made, I've none.

And yeah, I don't much like Lady Shiva's Armadillo suit.

#3 Posted by arnoldoaad (1007 posts) - - Show Bio

@Bogey said:

I'd add Lobo. He looked really awful.

I wanted to add Green Arrow too but i kept it in 4 to make the piece short

@Aronmorales said:

And yeah, I don't much like Lady Shiva's Armadillo suit.

the funny thing is that I honestly dont think thi armadillo thing is not such a bad idea, is just horrible to make it into Lady Shiva, but as a regular midlevel assassin it would be ok

#4 Posted by JohnnyGat (1561 posts) - - Show Bio

I disagree with Lady Shiva...

It's more an Ankylosaurus Suit than an Armadillo

#5 Posted by xtremekidx (576 posts) - - Show Bio

man,i was really stoked about reading power girl but the first issue turned me sown bad....here is to hope that the new costume brings a power girl with a new attitude....and boob window

#6 Posted by Aronmorales (9434 posts) - - Show Bio

@arnoldoaad said:

@Aronmorales said:

And yeah, I don't much like Lady Shiva's Armadillo suit.

the funny thing is that I honestly dont think thi armadillo thing is not such a bad idea, is just horrible to make it into Lady Shiva, but as a regular midlevel assassin it would be ok

I concur; as a separate entity it could work, but from little I know about Shiva it seems...very very off.

#7 Posted by arnoldoaad (1007 posts) - - Show Bio

@JohnnyGat said:

I disagree with Lady Shiva...

It's more an Ankylosaurus Suit than an Armadillo

thanks, i had no idea what that dinosaur was named so i just went for the safe route

@xtremekidx said:

man,i was really stoked about reading power girl but the first issue turned me sown bad....here is to hope that the new costume brings a power girl with a new attitude....and boob window

why would the costume change her character?

Its only a superficial change But i like to think that the Pg costume is just very very attractive in the design that it needs no tweaks, but is her attitude and personlity that has the biggest problem

#8 Posted by Decoy Elite (30041 posts) - - Show Bio

Surprised by the lack of Harley Quinn.

#9 Posted by arnoldoaad (1007 posts) - - Show Bio

@Decoy Elite said:

Surprised by the lack of Harley Quinn.

she just had a bad design, its mostly superficial

#10 Posted by Decoy Elite (30041 posts) - - Show Bio

@arnoldoaad said:

@Decoy Elite said:

Surprised by the lack of Harley Quinn.

she just had a bad design, its mostly superficial

Oh, I heard her personality was screwed up as well.

#11 Posted by Sharkbite (285 posts) - - Show Bio

My A-number-1 offender is hands down Amanda Waller. It is rediculous what they did, both physically and in personality, to The Wall.

#12 Posted by Shotgun (900 posts) - - Show Bio

@Decoy Elite said:

@arnoldoaad said:

@Decoy Elite said:

Surprised by the lack of Harley Quinn.

she just had a bad design, its mostly superficial

Oh, I heard her personality was screwed up as well.

Her personality has always been screwed up.

#13 Posted by Decoy Elite (30041 posts) - - Show Bio

@Shotgun: Lol, I meant I heard they radically changed her character.

#14 Posted by ZEELLO (223 posts) - - Show Bio

These top/best New 52 posts are always interesting to read.

I have a question, well two questions.

1) Is Hawkwoman her own ongoing and if not, which ongoings does she appear in?

2) What comic is the Powergirl stair scene from? And is it from the pre-52 or post-52 Powergirl? (it's not really clear from the blog, since it was apparently complimenting it for being funny)

#15 Posted by V_Scarlotte_Rose (5550 posts) - - Show Bio

@Decoy Elite said:

@arnoldoaad said:

@Decoy Elite said:

Surprised by the lack of Harley Quinn.

she just had a bad design, its mostly superficial

Oh, I heard her personality was screwed up as well.

It is, her personality does seem very different. I've only read the first seven issues in TPB form, and really didn't like how she is now.

She's so different that a lot of people seem to think she might not even be the real Harley Quinn. I kinda hope that's true, it'd be nice if classic Harley came back.

#16 Posted by batkevin74 (9723 posts) - - Show Bio

This

And this

And this

His character was great before 52 and reduced to well...just look at the three above pics. I rest my case

#17 Edited by Death Certificate (5438 posts) - - Show Bio

@batkevin74 said:

This

And this

And this

His character was great before 52 and reduced to well...just look at the three above pics. I rest my case

Deathstroke hasn't been drawn nor written by Rob Liefeld for months.

#18 Posted by Binski (606 posts) - - Show Bio

I'd say you're right about everything but Captain Atom

#19 Posted by Reignmaker (2224 posts) - - Show Bio

I was going to say Tim Drake.

#20 Posted by TDK_1997 (13670 posts) - - Show Bio

You are forgetting Lobo and Tim Drake.

#21 Posted by Humanoid (127 posts) - - Show Bio

Batman.

Don't know why they reintroduced him as this pansy who can't kill people.

#22 Posted by WaveMotionCannon (4669 posts) - - Show Bio
@arnoldoaad

I am planning on making a huge blogpost about what i feel about the new 52 after all this time but first i had this idea that might be interesting exploring, i want wanted to make a top 10 of the things that are the most annoying in the new 52, and maybe i will do in the future but this time i will just focus in specific characters that have just been utter failures lately.

though usually in this kind of post you might expect me to make Barbara Gordon as Victimgirl my #1 choice for worst reimaginated character, but i have already talk to much about her so i want to explore other options to keep my rants fresh.

What exactly do i mean by reinvention? well by that i mean characters that are by all means and purposes in no way the same characters(i.e. Barbara Gordon) that they were before the new 52 and were given a new intention concept or purpose.

4- Captain Atom

Captain Atom

I know for a fact that in may ways Alan Moore was inspired by Captain Atom in order to create Dr Manhattan

to be specific, Moore was inspired by THIS

In turn the new Atom turn after Watchmen took a lot of liberties of its own

Before Captain Atom was a soldier stranded out of his time because of an experiment imposed punishment for a crime he didnt commit with powers he could barely understand, his skin was shielded with a alien metal that gives him strength, durability and the capacity to flight and energy powers.

The new Captain Atom is Jesus.

he is immortal, he cures cancer and he died for your sins, all hail the space jesus.

ok seriously the new Atom is for all practical purposes the same as Dr Manhattan, which is really ironic when you think about it since now the original is copying the same product that it inspired, even though i know many will admit that the new Manhattan is interesting, it is just not Captain Atom.

3- Shayera Hall, Hawkwoman

One-dimensional doesnt even begin to describe the new Shayera Hall, she is completely empty of personality, she is mostly based of cliche and even sexist ideas.

the new Hawkwoman is the sister of Corsar, the leader of Thanagar, she is also the lover of Carter Hall, The Savage Hawkman, and all goes nice and easy until Corsar starts acting as a crazy tyrant who wants to use the Nth metal for evil reasons, which ends with Carter "Savagely" attacking Corsar and then fleeing to Earth.

Now this conflict has kind of Shakespearean in the sense that now Shayera needs to search inside her own soul for answers as she tries to capture her own true love for the crime of killing her own brother and king, and might even result in good drama and character development if it wasnt because this character was introduced by Robert Liefeld who has as much understanding of Shakespeare as a Neanderthal would.

Instead the "death" of Corsair flips a switch inside Shayera's brain that transforms her from loving partner mode to vengeful biatch mode in a manner of seconds and proceds to hunt down Carter like a dog showing absolutely no conflict, remorse or any emotion whatsoever.

what is worst of this change to villain is that she really sucks at it, failing at capturing Carter at every step until she gets help from...

spoilerCORSAR, who is alive

... for some reason

but of course now this development "unflips" her Biatch mode and in the last issue(#16)she tries to save Carter at the cost of her own life.

Now it is unclear if Shayera's dead is permanent but who would really care at all with a girl like this.

2- Lady Shiva

...

my god, just look at that costume, how is this in any way and form anything like the old Lady Shiva?, this is not Lady Shiva, this is Armadillogirl.

in case you didnt knew the old Lady Shiva, this is Lady Shiva

Lady Shiva

Lady Shiva is the 3rd best fighter in the entire DC Universe, only bested by Bronze Tiger and Richard Dragon, she is the mother of Cassandra Cain the best Batgirl ever and also is one of the deadliest assassins in the world and has defeated in combat even Batman.

and the new Shiva is just a bland version of that.

I generally dont pay that much attention to redesign in costume, primarily cause in most cases is only superficial changes, but here is way more than superficial is a radical change in concept and for what exactly im not sure.

the new Shiva is younger to the point that now she has the same age as Nightwing, which is like 21+, but she also defeated Batman when he was just starting to have Dick as robin which is kind of hard to digest.

1- Powergirl

Kiss Kiss

I like to think that the comic fandom has always kinda made jokes on Powergirl at her own expense, mainly because she had a hole in her costume that has no other purpose than allowing us to see her boobs, not necessarily something positive but neither negative, there are many funny bits about powergirl(pun intended) and it has been well explored, for a long time Powergirl's own ongoing was a comedy.

and a really funny and enjoyable one.

but Neither of those things meant that Character WAS A JOKE

now it is one XD

The problem of Powergirl goes beyond her costume, is her personality, even though she was a very sexualized character and just really sexy, she didnt really had a sexualized personality, she was fun and loyal and heroic.

Now the new powergirl is hypersexual, in Worlds Finest most of the flashbacks to her time in E0 practically start her making a sexpun or saying how she wants to sleep with a bunch of guys, this happens in practically every issue, there is a huge difference between a sexually liberated woman and a nymphomaniac and honestly Starfire got a bigger complains for much less.

It doesnt help the fact that her own costume gets torn apart as a running joke on practically every issue, the problem is that its never funny.

see, here is actually meant to be funny and it is.

if this tried to be funny, It Failed.

and if that wasnt enough, she is just very mean spirited, she has a constant feeling of apathy for anything that doesnt involve E2, which leads her to say things like this:

and do things like what she did in the Mr Terrific comic, in which she discovers that Michael Holt is investigating how to travel through dimensions, so she befriends him and sleeps with him only to use his toys when the time was right in which then she subsequently robs his investigation.

this is really not a role model for anyone and a waste of a good character.

So they turned Power Girl and Huntress into "2 Broke Girls" and borrowed the costume gets destroyed every issue bit from Empowered, awesome.
#23 Posted by akbogert (3150 posts) - - Show Bio

@arnoldoaad said:

@Decoy Elite said:

Surprised by the lack of Harley Quinn.

she just had a bad design, its mostly superficial

That's extraordinarily untrue. They changed her personality so much she is completely unrecognizable. To the point where the only reasonable (though unlikely) explanation is she actually isn't the same person. Harley Quinn is probably the number one worst reimagined character of the New 52. It doesn't take much comparing old and new her to see how badly they've ruined her. Note: I'm not just some fanboy, either. I've been introduced to both versions over the past month, and they are definitely not the same. I thought the new HQ was passable until I read some of the old version. She's been reduced to a pitiful Joker-esque sideshow that dresses like a whore. Her entire existence has literally been explained as a product of the Joker; her entire past, including relationships, personality, education, and even her origin (which included some superhuman-level abilities) have been eradicated.

I'm not saying any of these other characters didn't suffer from the reboot, but at least some people still like Power Girl. I've not met anyone who knows both Harleys and can actually stand the current one.

#24 Posted by Kal'smahboi (3314 posts) - - Show Bio

Yeah, the Hawks really got a raw deal. I was very excited to see the reincarnated Egyptian warriors but we got...aliens. Awesome, Liefeld.

#25 Posted by ltbrd (552 posts) - - Show Bio

What shocks me about the new 52 is how far towards the Wildstorm image they took the majority of their characters rather than sticking with the more time honored, and greater sales prolific, image of the standard DC line. This trend towards what I can only describe as a re-hash of the 90's is just ridiculous and seriously makes me wonder just what the heck DC was thinking with most of these "re-imagining". I can understand that most of their younger writers and artists grew up in the 90's but we had a whole other decade of comics that moved away from some of these designs and trends that they should have been influenced by as well.

Don't disagree with anything on this list, however I would take Lady Shiva off it if not for the spikes. Have no problem with the "modern ninja" look but why they thought she needed to look like a cosplay Marvel Scorpion is beyond me.

Captain Atom should have been merged with Apollo. That would have been a nice amalgram of Captain Atom's origins and the way Apollo's abilities work (but instead of making him only solar powered he can absorb any type of energy) and not put so much emphasis on being radioactive and, as stated, too "Dr. Manahattan" like.

I'm surprised Midnighter didn't make the list because there is a guy that truly embodies everything wrong with 90's-esque design and "re-imagining" of the new 52.

But my biggest disappointment is Power Girl (as well as Huntress but Power Girl more) because her character is so much better than the modern Supergirl. Even before her last solo series, which was amazing, her overall characterization within Justice Society and the DC Universe as a whole was as strong and pivotal a character as Wonder Woman. I really wish I could make DC stop giving us angsty, melodramatic, whining, crap modern Supergirl and leave Power Girl as Superman's one and only cousin. She is just a better character in every sense of the word. The "boob window" thing is stupid and I've always found it as unnecessary as nearly every other female costume design DC artists can come up with (I will never understand why Wonder Woman wears a bathing suit as her suit of armor when EVERY....SINGLE.....OTHER AMAZON wears at least a passing resemblance at ancient Greek armor.........how is it that nobody at DC has the gall to point this out and make a senseable change to giving her a proper look?). But if that's the small price to be paid to make her a part of the Superman family instead of the way Supergirl has been done since 2004 I can live with that.

In the end there are just so many bad re-imaginings and re-designs in the new 52 to go into every single one. I seriously find it more enjoyable sometimes to just Google "x fan art" and see what everyday Timmy and Tammy are posting on the internet in regards to these characters. Some of which are amazing and make a lot more sense than what DC artists are coming up with these days (though there are some very strange fan fic drawings as well that honestly creep me out).

#26 Posted by Ravager4 (1625 posts) - - Show Bio

@ZEELLO said:

2) What comic is the Powergirl stair scene from? And is it from the pre-52 or post-52 Powergirl? (it's not really clear from the blog, since it was apparently complimenting it for being funny)

It's from her solo series before the reboot. I highly recommend it. Unlike the rebooted Power Girl, the pre-boot PG is very likable and her series was a lot of fun (of course it helps when you have writers who treat her with respect, unlike currently).

#27 Posted by Jorgevy (5114 posts) - - Show Bio

@akbogert said:

I'm not saying any of these other characters didn't suffer from the reboot, but at least some people still like Power Girl. I've not met anyone who knows both Harleys and can actually stand the current one.

not true. the same could be said for PowerGirl. the number of people who have read both pre new 52 and new 52 PG and prefer the later is probably the same number of people who read both Harley's and prefer the new 52 version

On PowerGirl: gotta agree with OP on the funny thing. She was sooooo freaking funny and now it's not. and always with the same running gags. ugh. freaking hate it. I actually started reading World Finest hoping it would be decent but it's not even decent. I was okay with the costume change even if i dont agree with it, but they changed too much beyond that.

AND WHAT FOR?

they took away her boob window so she wouldn't be seen as just some slut or a sexual character or whatever and what do they DO?

they make her a nymphomaniac. they change her clothes so she wouldn't show so much flesh and what do they do? they remove her clothes EVERY CHANCE they get. in ways beyond stupidity and idiocy. really? a freaking super costume that's supposed to protect her easily gets thorned? funny, Superman is a freaking kryptonian and his costume doesn't easily get destroyed.

screw this reimagining of PG. it's seriously the only reimagining that Im actually pissed off about. all the others I can live with

#28 Posted by EdBlank (396 posts) - - Show Bio

Powergirl. They need to just admit defeat and bring back the real Powergirl. Boob window and all.

#29 Posted by akbogert (3150 posts) - - Show Bio

Can't reply on my phone. But that's fine that this version of PG is horrendous; that was hardly the crux of my argument (though it was the only part addressed). Harley is still deserving of top three, if not number one, worst reimaginings in this new universe.

#30 Posted by Billy Batson (56866 posts) - - Show Bio

@EdBlank said:

Powergirl. They need to just admit defeat and bring back the real Powergirl. Boob window and all.

Well they are if you look at the upcoming covers.

World's Finest #12

BB

Online
#31 Posted by Ravager4 (1625 posts) - - Show Bio

@Billy Batson: A costume change can't fix horrendous writing and characterization.

#32 Posted by Eternal19 (2074 posts) - - Show Bio

@Humanoid said:

Batman.

Don't know why they reintroduced him as this pansy who can't kill people.

your kidding right? im sorry i dont get jokes pn the internet

#33 Posted by V_Scarlotte_Rose (5550 posts) - - Show Bio

@Eternal19 said:

@Humanoid said:

Batman.

Don't know why they reintroduced him as this pansy who can't kill people.

your kidding right? im sorry i dont get jokes pn the internet

I was about to question that statement too. If it is a joke, I don't get it either.

#34 Edited by colonyofcells (2038 posts) - - Show Bio

1. I think earth 2 power girl is ok. I just prefer main earth to also have its own power girl. 2. The costume of Lady Shiva can easily be changed if most people don't like it. The New 52 policy is to get rid of most of the children and to make superheroes younger. So Lady Shiva being younger and having no children is to be expected. I also wonder what happened to Aquaman's children, Oliver Queen's children, Roy Harper's child, etc. It is easy to reboot and give Cassandra Cain a revised origin. A rebooted Cassandra Cain will probably be about the same age as Lady Shiva. 3. Hawk female. The Hawk female dc is concentrating on right now is the earth 2 Hawkgirl Kendra Munoz Saunders who now looks like a non white hispanic. Based on the James Robinson podcasts, the ethnic characters ideas are usually dictated by the dc architects. For main earth Hawkman, dc prefers to focus on Hawkman so Shayera is not really needed. 4. I think the god like Captain Atom is ok and just needs to find something to do to avoid getting bored. Some bored gods just go around killing people. 5. Deathstroke and Lobo are not too bad.

#35 Edited by lightsout (1811 posts) - - Show Bio

What I took away from the Power Girl entry - I'd like to explore her _____ well ...:D

But in all seriousness, those were some spot on points. It's like people dusted off their hands & said "Whelp, her suit's not revealing anymore. Mission accomplished", when now it's the character that's shallow. It shows that anyone who had a complaint about her old costume, that it was the focus of who she was, didn't read much material with her. There was a scene in JSA where she's on the roof with Stargirl and explains to her that she wears it because it's to her advantage if an enemy believes that's all there is to her -- when in fact she's smart, loyal, tough as hell, unrelenting in a fight, a great leader (etc etc). Lazy writing at it's finest (/caving to pressure that came from the collective uninformed).

#36 Posted by Fallen_Crippled (6181 posts) - - Show Bio

I actually agree with this.

#37 Posted by FalconPuuunch (942 posts) - - Show Bio
  1. Tim Drake
  2. Deathstroke
  3. Hawk and Dove
  4. Jason Todd
#38 Posted by FalconPuuunch (942 posts) - - Show Bio

@akbogert said:

@arnoldoaad said:

@Decoy Elite said:

Surprised by the lack of Harley Quinn.

she just had a bad design, its mostly superficial

That's extraordinarily untrue. They changed her personality so much she is completely unrecognizable. To the point where the only reasonable (though unlikely) explanation is she actually isn't the same person. Harley Quinn is probably the number one worst reimagined character of the New 52. It doesn't take much comparing old and new her to see how badly they've ruined her. Note: I'm not just some fanboy, either. I've been introduced to both versions over the past month, and they are definitely not the same. I thought the new HQ was passable until I read some of the old version. She's been reduced to a pitiful Joker-esque sideshow that dresses like a whore. Her entire existence has literally been explained as a product of the Joker; her entire past, including relationships, personality, education, and even her origin (which included some superhuman-level abilities) have been eradicated.

I'm not saying any of these other characters didn't suffer from the reboot, but at least some people still like Power Girl. I've not met anyone who knows both Harleys and can actually stand the current one.

Have you been reading Death of the Family? I'm almost positive that this Harley is a different Harley. It's not officially stated, but a woman wearing Harley's old costume (Red/Black leg stockings) was shown hanging in his basement.

#39 Posted by akbogert (3150 posts) - - Show Bio

@FalconPuuunch: Like I said, "to the point where the only reasonable...explanation is she actually isn't the same person." Yes, that was suggested, though the whole thing seemed like a ridiculous way for Joker to play mindgames with her. That said, if it is true, then I'll refer you to the tail end of that paragraph, in which I said "Her [that is, the "current" Harley's] entire existence has literally been explained as a product of the Joker." The fact that this reimagined Harley is at worst a cloned replica that Joker "created," at best isn't even actually Harley (which means rather than merely reimagining her, they just got rid of her entirely), simply proves my point that she's worse off than just about anyone else from the reboot.

#40 Posted by Darth Paul (273 posts) - - Show Bio

The entire concept of Earth 2 now is terrible where it's back to where most of the golden age characters and some of their legacies only exist there and not in Earth 0. It ruins all of the great character interactions and legacies from pre new 52. I don't like a single thing they've done w/ any character there.

#41 Posted by Cavemold (1646 posts) - - Show Bio

i would say GA but Jeff Liemere fixed him . PG has her old suit back.

#42 Posted by arnoldoaad (1007 posts) - - Show Bio

@ZEELLO said:

These top/best New 52 posts are always interesting to read.

I have a question, well two questions.

1) Is Hawkwoman her own ongoing and if not, which ongoings does she appear in?

2) What comic is the Powergirl stair scene from? And is it from the pre-52 or post-52 Powergirl? (it's not really clear from the blog, since it was apparently complimenting it for being funny)

1- she appears(though not anymore) in Savage Hawkman

2- is from Powergirl's old ongoing by Jimmy Palmiotti and Justin Gray, drawn by Amanda Conner, its really good

@Binski said:

I'd say you're right about everything but Captain Atom

why exactly?

I know some people like it, but If DC wanted to make a Doctor Manhattan book they shouldnt had

@akbogert said:

@arnoldoaad said:

@Decoy Elite said:

Surprised by the lack of Harley Quinn.

she just had a bad design, its mostly superficial

That's extraordinarily untrue. They changed her personality so much she is completely unrecognizable. To the point where the only reasonable (though unlikely) explanation is she actually isn't the same person. Harley Quinn is probably the number one worst reimagined character of the New 52. It doesn't take much comparing old and new her to see how badly they've ruined her. Note: I'm not just some fanboy, either. I've been introduced to both versions over the past month, and they are definitely not the same. I thought the new HQ was passable until I read some of the old version. She's been reduced to a pitiful Joker-esque sideshow that dresses like a whore. Her entire existence has literally been explained as a product of the Joker; her entire past, including relationships, personality, education, and even her origin (which included some superhuman-level abilities) have been eradicated.

I'm not saying any of these other characters didn't suffer from the reboot, but at least some people still like Power Girl. I've not met anyone who knows both Harleys and can actually stand the current one.

The thing is, i dont think that Harley is damaged for good, Im ok with the design, but i know its not good, so who really cares, next year, maybe later she will get another costume, the bleached skin, i dont see the big problem with that eitheR

relationships, thats a common problem with the new 52

Her personality, i dont think is that bad, she has been violent and crazy and stuff so if some people dont like it now maybe is mainly because of the interpretation of Glass, maybe the new writer will do something better with

education, whut!?

her origin is practically the same with the addition of the skin bleacher, it makes sense that joker gave her powers by mistake instead of Poison Ivy saving her life and giving her super powers for the kicks of it

@FalconPuuunch said:

  1. Tim Drake
  2. Deathstroke
  3. Hawk and Dove
  4. Jason Todd

???

Hawk and Dove werent reimagined, they are the same H&D that liefeld wrote his first time in DC

@colonyofcells said:

1. I think earth 2 power girl is ok. I just prefer main earth to also have its own power girl. 2. The costume of Lady Shiva can easily be changed if most people don't like it. The New 52 policy is to get rid of most of the children and to make superheroes younger. So Lady Shiva being younger and having no children is to be expected. I also wonder what happened to Aquaman's children, Oliver Queen's children, Roy Harper's child, etc. It is easy to reboot and give Cassandra Cain a revised origin. A rebooted Cassandra Cain will probably be about the same age as Lady Shiva. 3. Hawk female. The Hawk female dc is concentrating on right now is the earth 2 Hawkgirl Kendra Munoz Saunders who now looks like a non white hispanic. Based on the James Robinson podcasts, the ethnic characters ideas are usually dictated by the dc architects. For main earth Hawkman, dc prefers to focus on Hawkman so Shayera is not really needed. 4. I think the god like Captain Atom is ok and just needs to find something to do to avoid getting bored. Some bored gods just go around killing people. 5. Deathstroke and Lobo are not too bad.

1- I agree, I always thought that Pg should be just Supergirl's older sister, it gives a new dynamic to play with

2- regartless of the changes about Cass Cain, the sole redesign of Shiva is the problem, and I really agree that we shouldnt care about costume changes that much, the change in Powergirl's costume is proof of that, but for Shiva is more than superficial, is just a complete change on the characters concept

3- Hawkgirl has been hispanic since Johns run on JSA, the problem with Shayera is that is a completely different character that has always been paired with Hawkman and the way that she was rebooted was so abysmal that it inevitably hurts Hawkman, because Hawkgirl and Hawkman will not be together.

4- I just going to say that if you want to read a Dr Manhattan comic, read Watchmen, we dont need this at all

#43 Posted by arnoldoaad (1007 posts) - - Show Bio

@Cavemold said:

i would say GA but Jeff Liemere fixed him .

I dont think Lemire has fixd him yet

I liked what Lemire is trying to do with the character and i liked issue 17 but i still think is too soon to say that is all right and good after such abysmal reboot

I even heard someone who said that GA is now like Fraction's Hawkeye, not even close

PG has her old suit back.

thats good and all but i would prefer her to keep her current costume and had her previous personality and stop being a walking sex joke

#44 Posted by FalconPuuunch (942 posts) - - Show Bio

@akbogert said:

@FalconPuuunch: Like I said, "to the point where the only reasonable...explanation is she actually isn't the same person." Yes, that was suggested, though the whole thing seemed like a ridiculous way for Joker to play mindgames with her. That said, if it is true, then I'll refer you to the tail end of that paragraph, in which I said "Her [that is, the "current" Harley's] entire existence has literally been explained as a product of the Joker." The fact that this reimagined Harley is at worst a cloned replica that Joker "created," at best isn't even actually Harley (which means rather than merely reimagining her, they just got rid of her entirely), simply proves my point that she's worse off than just about anyone else from the reboot.

You have a point there. The only thing worse than not being rebooted is having someone else replace you in a reboot. I haven't been reading Suicide Squad up until DOTF, but I thought the whole thing was ridiculous at first thought. Harley is a Gothamite Hell Clown, not some secret agent or whatever it was that she did. I have the same problem with Poison Ivy being in BOP but at least most of her characteristics remained intact.

These things are my biggest problems with comics. When they run out of things to do with characters they put them in the most ridiculous situations which (most of the time) change them completely character wise for the worse. For some reason I see this with a lot of Batman related characters.

#45 Posted by akbogert (3150 posts) - - Show Bio

@arnoldoaad said:

The thing is, i dont think that Harley is damaged for good, Im ok with the design, but i know its not good, so who really cares, next year, maybe later she will get another costume, the bleached skin, i dont see the big problem with that eitheR

relationships, thats a common problem with the new 52

Her personality, i dont think is that bad, she has been violent and crazy and stuff so if some people dont like it now maybe is mainly because of the interpretation of Glass, maybe the new writer will do something better with

education, whut!?

her origin is practically the same with the addition of the skin bleacher, it makes sense that joker gave her powers by mistake instead of Poison Ivy saving her life and giving her super powers for the kicks of it

You sound quite a bit like I did when I had only read a couple issues of current Suicide Squad and had only vague, incidental insight into the old Quinn. And I'm just saying that now that I've seen more of the old Quinn, it's just not true. She's been outright assassinated. Her personality might be okay for a different character, but it's not even remotely close to what made HQ, well, HQ. It's like taking two adult twins and saying that the slight differences in appearance don't really make them separate people. It's not about costume, it's not about bleached skin. It's about taking someone who was A. A smart doctor who fell for her patient, acted crazy but still was motivated mostly by infatuation (not evil), was immune to her psychotic lover's toxin because of something she received from a close friend (/lover -- Ivy), and yes, dressed sexily but not sluttily and turning her into B. A regular person tossed into chemicals and turned crazy, whose very existence is dependence on the Joker (which is very different from someone being obsessed, because it means she is actually nothing without him), and whose behavior is far more like Joker than a lovesick and misguided woman whose life was going well until she fell for the wrong dude.

I recognize it's possible that you've read a lot more than I have and still come to the conclusions you do, but you are definitely in the minority in that case. Again, I'm not a huge fanboy, and my personal experience is limited. But I've done what I could to familiarize myself and I know enough to confidently say that she is very changed. You want a more detailed argument, call in . (Also, again, that doesn't invalidate any of the people listed here as being butcheries of their old selves; I'm just saying Harley has definitely been destroyed).

#46 Posted by batkevin74 (9723 posts) - - Show Bio

@Death Certificate said:

@batkevin74 said:

This

And this

And this

His character was great before 52 and reduced to well...just look at the three above pics. I rest my case

Deathstroke hasn't been drawn nor written by Rob Liefeld for months.

His run helped put the nail in Deathstroke's coffin though

#47 Posted by InnerVenom123 (29330 posts) - - Show Bio

No Midnighter?