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Posted by Jorgevy (5114 posts) - - Show Bio

Hey guys. I dont know if you heard about this but if you didn't I'll tell you.

This is kind of a spoiler for the new Dragonball movie so STOP READING IF YOU DONT WANT TO KNOW ANYTHING ABOUT IT UNTIL IT'S OUT

sooo, there's gonna be some stuff going on

and

Goku does the usual OH NO stuff and bam new transformation

that probably isn't the most original thing ever so I guess most of us saw it coming

BUUUUUT

It's called Super Saiyan God, it's supposed to be the LEGENDS of Legends, so even more legendary than LSSG or regular super saiyan or whatever that means (I guess all the saiyans just forget about this super legend UNTIL NOW, including Vegeta after he transformed into you know a super saiyan and then even beyond but whatever)

so.... Im just here to tell you this:

I was SUUUUPER excited about a new DBZ movie. I grew up with DB, then DBZ and then DBGT. Love all of it, even GT even though it's obviously not as good as the other two (I still enjoy several bits). I guess one of the reasons DBGT is actually good on my book is because of the Dragon Saga and SSJ4 which is my favourite transformation

that being said you probably think this is some type of DBGT fanboy (wait, do those exist?) or SSJ4 fanboy outrage. IT's NOT. I was, as I already said, kinda predicting there would be a new transformation. I accepted it.

I was okay with it and it actually started to get me curious on what it would look like, how it happens, why it happens. all that stuff

although I was particularly more excited about the possibility of Vegeta going SSJ3 and fusing with Goku doing a Gogeta SSJ3

guess what, now Im mad because not only this SSG (that's the short version of Super Saiyan God, supposedly) means Goku will ONCE AGAIN win the day all by himself by just getting stronger than the other guy, it also means other characters like Vegeta mainly will get downplayed (Im a huge Vegeta fan, you probably guessed it).

Not only that, what is this GOD crap? (I hope this isn't blasphemous)

seriously, the name pisses me off. is this Toriyama's or whoever is in charge, way of fanwanking? yeah just give the fans more fuel to be fanboys of Goku and DBZ in general. fuel that. also, is this in reaction to the Superman battle thing? not sure about this one but could be. could just be a way of saying, here fans , Goku is a freaking GOD of super saiyans now, now you can go to battle forums and piss everyone off.

seriously. I was SUUUUUUPER excited about the movie, found about this today and now it's almost ruined. ALMOST, because Im not one to disregard or to say something is crap before watching it. I will watch it, then I will make further judgement, but seriously.... I dont even........

what do you guys think? I didn't see any other thread about this here

what do you guys think this will mean about Goku in the battle forums?

what will this do to the fanboyism in general and do you actually think it's a good idea?

SHARE your thoughts

PS: just so no one thinks Im BSing you guys or it's just a fake spoiler or whatever http://dragonball.wikia.com/wiki/Super_Saiyan_God

#1 Posted by JonSmith (3790 posts) - - Show Bio

If there IS a new transformation, I hope it's not onscreen for just five minutes: If they're going to make it, at least show it off sufficiently so that when it pops up in the Battle Forums, we don't have to dive into heavy theory on it's capabilities based on one single powerful feat.

#2 Posted by Jorgevy (5114 posts) - - Show Bio

@JonSmith said:

If there IS a new transformation, I hope it's not onscreen for just five minutes: If they're going to make it, at least show it off sufficiently so that when it pops up in the Battle Forums, we don't have to dive into heavy theory on it's capabilities based on one single powerful feat.

there is, there's even images of Goku transforming, just not of him actually transformed. but you have nothing to say about the Super Saiyan god?

#3 Posted by FadeToBlackBolt (23334 posts) - - Show Bio

I was really hoping it would be the result of SS3 Goku, SS3 Vegeta and SS3 Gohan. A 3x3 = SSgod sort of thing. Really disappointed that it's just Goku again.

Toriyama really fell back on his whole "have Gohan defend the world in Goku's absence" thing. Even dead, Goku saves them all =T

#4 Posted by Jorgevy (5114 posts) - - Show Bio

@FadeToBlackBolt: I know right? Im seriously pissed. I thought toriyama being the writer was ACTUALLY a good thing. guess not... but i'll still watch it, just to be sure

#5 Posted by FadeToBlackBolt (23334 posts) - - Show Bio

@Jorgevy: Yeah, it's really disappointing. Guess we can expect the same crap as always.

Everyone is beaten up.

Bills is invincible

SS3 Goku puts up the best fight, despite Ultimate Gohan being more powerful

SS3 Goku goes God-Mode. Bills is punched once and dies. Probably be like Broly and Super Android 13; invulnerable but killed in one move.

#6 Posted by JonSmith (3790 posts) - - Show Bio

@Jorgevy said:

If there IS a new transformation, I hope it's not onscreen for just five minutes: If they're going to make it, at least show it off sufficiently so that when it pops up in the Battle Forums, we don't have to dive into heavy theory on it's capabilities based on one single powerful feat.

there is, there's even images of Goku transforming, just not of him actually transformed. but you have nothing to say about the Super Saiyan god?

Any being of sufficient power would be worshiped as a God by a significantly weaker species. Considering how powerful the Saiyan's already are, it's amazing the humans in their world don't worship them as such already. The Super Saiyan God form was probably a similar case with the ancient Saiyan's: So incredibly powerful they worshiped it as a God, hence the name.

As for Vegeta not mentioning it before now: even presuming he was up to date on Saiyan mythology sufficiently to have ANY knowledge of it, he had no CLUE about the intricacies of the Super Saiyan or Legendary Super Saiyan states before Goku achieving the former, hence his repeated claims that he'd become the latter during the Frieza saga: He didn't really know what he was talking about, but assumed his new powers granted him the title.

After that fiasco, and gaining access to the Super Saiyan state, and it's ascended forms, he probably never thought to mention it because he assumed they'd achieved it already, and there was no one else both familiar enough with Saiyan mythology to know about the SSG, nor knew enough to be afraid of it. He only kept referring to himself as a Super Saiyan initially because he knew Frieza was terrified of it.

... That was a lot longer than I initially intended, sorry.

To summarize: First person to achieve SSG was called such because of his incredible power, said myths faded into legend with the LSS taking the forefront since it popped up more often. Vegeta has no clue what the forms above his previous states are, he just follows Goku's example. So he assumed they'd either already achieved the SSG and didn't mention it because no one else knew anything about it, or it was a myth and didn't matter.

#7 Posted by ArticulateT (189 posts) - - Show Bio

I kinda saw it coming, if it wasn't going to be another Spirit Bomb, in that it's another plot power, where the character finally has enough and unlocks the power of friendship/love/self-respect/determination/other abstract concept.

I agree with in that Gohan's story was kinda ineffectual, and that he could have seen even more development in working his way out of Goku's shadow, yet Goku will continue to be put into the limelight.

I can only assume that, if it is Super Saiyan God, it's an attempt to continue separating the original storyline of Dragonball from GT.

As for the whole god thing, well, I still see it as another bit of Anime and Manga common themes, in that it's not actually meant to be deified, but rather it's just a name to signify great power, kind of like how Frieza's Supernova isn't an actual supernova, but is just a large ball of great power.

As for the battle forums, as much as I like to contradict myself and will always support Superman, regardless of this sort of thing, I'm trying to keep myself from most Anime vs Comic fights, since the way the mediums are presented make it difficult, for me at least, to reliably compare stats.

#8 Posted by Jorgevy (5114 posts) - - Show Bio

@JonSmith: I get all that and it could be a possible explanation, and I admit, they might actually make all of it work. it doesnt excuse Toriyam himself of doing such a terrible job at making a way for the heroes to win and to give them such a title. seeing how Bills was dancing around SSJ3 Goku, and utterly destroyed Gohan, Buu and Vegeta, this Super Saiyan God must be really powerful. i dont know, I'll wait and see, but all of this is VERY VERY fishy and it's just a weak plot device to make goku win and be the hero.

I dont like it one bit

#9 Posted by Lvenger (15969 posts) - - Show Bio

@FadeToBlackBolt said:

@Jorgevy: Yeah, it's really disappointing. Guess we can expect the same crap as always.

Everyone is beaten up.

Bills is invincible

SS3 Goku puts up the best fight, despite Ultimate Gohan being more powerful

SS3 Goku goes God-Mode. Bills is punched once and dies. Probably be like Broly and Super Android 13; invulnerable but killed in one move.

Gohan has been seen as a Super Saiyan in this film for some reason. It's not explained why he's using that form instead of the far more powerful Ultimate/Mystic form.

But nice summary of what the worst could be. But switch 1 for 3. Goku's beaten first according to the synopsis then everyone else is. I was really hoping for a fusion or something original as the way in which Bills is defeated. But no we get God Mode instead that will **** up the battle forums even more than Bills' appearance.

Super Saiyan God is an absolutely ridiculous form for Goku to reach. The only way I'd grant it to be even slightly permissible is if Goku tries to convince some new Skyfathers who are the bosses of the Kais to lend their power to him. They refuse, Goku goes to make a last stand against Bills and at the last minute they temporarily lend their power to make Goku the Super Saiyan God.

#10 Posted by Lvenger (15969 posts) - - Show Bio

@Jorgevy: Would this be an acceptable way for Goku to achieve this form?

"The only way I'd grant it to be even slightly permissible is if Goku tries to convince some new Skyfathers who are the bosses of the Kais to lend their power to him. They refuse, Goku goes to make a last stand against Bills and at the last minute they temporarily lend their power to make Goku the Super Saiyan God. Goku then beats Bills with this power increase and then loses the power increase being unable to turn into this form again."

#11 Posted by MisterGuyMan (1953 posts) - - Show Bio

Dragonball has always been about bridging the Mystical from the Mundane. Kami is technically the God of Earth and Yema, the God of Death is a relative lightweight. Even the Dragonballs themselves don't really fit.

Since Bills is the God of Destruction I'm going out on a limb and predict that SS God is tied to the God of Creation or the basic force of Creation somehow. I suspect Super Saiyan God will tie up some of the oddities of the series. Like if Kami/Dende can make an Eternal Dragon why can't some one else more powerful. Goku's Dragon Fist attack would make far more sense if he's able to ascend and tap into some basic forces of creation. Kami's Eternal Dragon is spiffy but it cant countermand anything more powerful than Kami himself. Goku's Golden Dragon could be a spiffier beefed up version of that.

#12 Edited by Jorgevy (5114 posts) - - Show Bio

@Lvenger said:

@Jorgevy: Would this be an acceptable way for Goku to achieve this form?

"The only way I'd grant it to be even slightly permissible is if Goku tries to convince some new Skyfathers who are the bosses of the Kais to lend their power to him. They refuse, Goku goes to make a last stand against Bills and at the last minute they temporarily lend their power to make Goku the Super Saiyan God. Goku then beats Bills with this power increase and then loses the power increase being unable to turn into this form again."

I guess if it was a temporary transformation provided by the Kais, I could let it pass. it wouldn't nullify GT or downplay the other Saiyans that much. still, I kinda which for a canon ssj3 vegeta and a cool fusion

@MisterGuyMan said:

Dragonball has always been about bridging the Mystical from the Mundane. Kami is technically the God of Earth and Yema, the God of Death is a relative lightweight. Even the Dragonballs themselves don't really fit.

Since Bills is the God of Destruction I'm going out on a limb and predict that SS God is tied to the God of Creation or the basic force of Creation somehow. I suspect Super Saiyan God will tie up some of the oddities of the series. Like if Kami/Dende can make an Eternal Dragon why can't some one else more powerful. Goku's Dragon Fist attack would make far more sense if he's able to ascend and tap into some basic forces of creation. Kami's Eternal Dragon is spiffy but it cant countermand anything more powerful than Kami himself. Goku's Golden Dragon could be a spiffier beefed up version of that.

who knows.... maybe. still I can't see it as much more than a ridiculous device. we'll wait and see, but it doesn't look promising

#13 Posted by Wolfrazer (4925 posts) - - Show Bio

This is why I would have just preferred it to stay at SSJ, no SSJ 2 or 3, or LSSJ(which isn't even canon anyway). Because as it stands now the Legendary Super Saiyan Transformation isn't so legendary anymore... 
 
  

  Sorry Vegeta, your wrong...didn't you hear? Super Saiyan isn't special anymore.
#14 Posted by mk111 (3136 posts) - - Show Bio

Sounds cool.

#15 Posted by BurningFlame (25 posts) - - Show Bio

Despite what the masses are saying, I strongly doubt that Goku will become this "Super Saiyan God". For all we know, this can be an entirely separate being. Something tells me that people are interpreting this the wrong way. I definitely hope that's the case, because I too would be highly upset if Goku achieves a "God Mode" and defeats Bils on his own. I remain fairly optimistic.

#16 Edited by Jorgevy (5114 posts) - - Show Bio

@Wolfrazer: not really. the legendary super saiyan that they talked about in legends destroyed their homeworld when he lost control of his power. super saiyans 1, and the ones after that showed they could control their power. the legendary super saiyan was probably a LSSJ like Broly or a Golden Oozaru

@BurningFlame: there was a trailer in japan with Goku transforming and a talking magical fish mentioned a super saiyan god. if that doesnt mean what we think it does, then i have no clue

#17 Posted by Mr_Ingenuity (6342 posts) - - Show Bio

@Wolfrazer: Been there done that.

#18 Posted by Death Certificate (5438 posts) - - Show Bio

Since this retcons GT,

#19 Posted by Jorgevy (5114 posts) - - Show Bio

@Death Certificate said:

Since this retcons GT,

depending on how bad this is I might actually

personally erase battle of gods from canon and just keep GT in.

#20 Edited by Wolfrazer (4925 posts) - - Show Bio
@Jorgevy said:

@Wolfrazer: not really. the legendary super saiyan that they talked about in legends destroyed their homeworld when he lost control of his power. super saiyans 1, and the ones after that showed they could control their power. the legendary super saiyan was probably a LSSJ like Broly or a Golden Oozaru

The Legendary Super Saiyan is just that....the Super Saiyan, what Goku achieves thats it. There is no such thing as the LSSJ. But anyway that wasn't really my point, point being is that the SSJ isn't so special or all powerful anymore. 
 
@Mr_Ingenuity:  Right ya I know.
#21 Posted by Bushwhacker_ (576 posts) - - Show Bio

Time to redo Supes vs. Goku death battle.

#22 Posted by Blackice709 (53 posts) - - Show Bio

I really don't give a fuck just can't wait to see the movie!

#23 Posted by comicace3 (1833 posts) - - Show Bio

@Jorgevy: Super Saiyan GOD?..... We should tell the superman fanboy's and see how they like it...

#24 Posted by comicace3 (1833 posts) - - Show Bio

@Bushwhacker_ said:

Time to redo Supes vs. Goku death battle.

HAHA THAT'S WHAT I SAID!!!

#25 Posted by ssj2DeadPool (213 posts) - - Show Bio

Who knows how we are going to get a japanese version in the end of march? I cant not wait a year for a dub. As soon as someone has it pm me asap. I love dbz more than frieza loves destroying planets.

#26 Posted by FadeToBlackBolt (23334 posts) - - Show Bio

@ArticulateT said:

I kinda saw it coming, if it wasn't going to be another Spirit Bomb, in that it's another plot power, where the character finally has enough and unlocks the power of friendship/love/self-respect/determination/other abstract concept.

I agree with in that Gohan's story was kinda ineffectual, and that he could have seen even more development in working his way out of Goku's shadow, yet Goku will continue to be put into the limelight.

I can only assume that, if it is Super Saiyan God, it's an attempt to continue separating the original storyline of Dragonball from GT.

As for the whole god thing, well, I still see it as another bit of Anime and Manga common themes, in that it's not actually meant to be deified, but rather it's just a name to signify great power, kind of like how Frieza's Supernova isn't an actual supernova, but is just a large ball of great power.

As for the battle forums, as much as I like to contradict myself and will always support Superman, regardless of this sort of thing, I'm trying to keep myself from most Anime vs Comic fights, since the way the mediums are presented make it difficult, for me at least, to reliably compare stats.

This is why I think it should be the three Super Saiyan 3s (Goku, Vegeta, Gohan) performing a three-way fusion. Kind of a "Holy Trinity" of Saiyan Power (3x3), hence the "God" title.

#27 Posted by MisterGuyMan (1953 posts) - - Show Bio

GT is definitely out as canon material regardless of Battle of Gods. DB Online already retconned GT and Toriyama was more involved in DB Online than GT.

#28 Posted by FadeToBlackBolt (23334 posts) - - Show Bio

@MisterGuyMan said:

GT is definitely out as canon material regardless of Battle of Gods. DB Online already retconned GT and Toriyama was more involved in DB Online than GT.

The way I look at it is that GT is the continuation of the DBZ movies (which struggle to fit into the anime as well), rather than the series.

#29 Posted by MisterGuyMan (1953 posts) - - Show Bio

@FadeToBlackBolt said:

The way I look at it is that GT is the continuation of the DBZ movies (which struggle to fit into the anime as well), rather than the series.

That's fair anyway here's the trailer. Goku transforms in a light blue aura, Bills is shocked and the announcer shouts Super Saiyan Gooto which I assume means Super Saiyan God.

#30 Posted by FadeToBlackBolt (23334 posts) - - Show Bio

@MisterGuyMan: I'm really hoping that blue aura isn't a transformation. Just a miscoloured Kaio-Ken or something.

#31 Edited by Jorgevy (5114 posts) - - Show Bio

@MisterGuyMan: I had seen the trailer but i forgot to put here.

@FadeToBlackBolt: nah, that's the transformation. the japanese announcer says it, plus it's followed by the giant ape image and roar. it's definatally part of the super saiyan god transf.

@MisterGuyMan said:

GT is definitely out as canon material regardless of Battle of Gods. DB Online already retconned GT and Toriyama was more involved in DB Online than GT.

taking to account the stuff he is doing with battle of gods, i kinda regret wanting Toriyama involved.

@Bushwhacker_ said:

Time to redo Supes vs. Goku death battle.

@comicace3 said:

@Jorgevy: Super Saiyan GOD?..... We should tell the superman fanboy's and see how they like it...

see this is the type of stuff I was talking about

we haven't even seen anything really, and already people want to redo a ridiculous battle or to tell superman fanboys (cause believing superman wins makes you a superman fanboy, obviously) that goku is now a super saiyan god and blah blah.......

ULTRA SIGH

@Wolfrazer: broly is a LSSj. those with that type of genetic variation are probably the ones who initially started the whole legendary super saiyan thing, or atleast the one who destroyed the homeworld of the Saiyans, since it matches in several ways - pure rage, inability to control himself, and easy planet busting capabilities

#32 Posted by FadeToBlackBolt (23334 posts) - - Show Bio

@Jorgevy: Ugh, damn. Thanks for the info, but damn.

#33 Posted by Jorgevy (5114 posts) - - Show Bio

@FadeToBlackBolt said:

@Jorgevy: Ugh, damn. Thanks for the info, but damn.

I mean i agree, that isn't my idea of colour for such a transformation, but why the dislike? I mean, Im actually more pissed about the god thing, the transformation colour doesn't concern me that much... BTW Im just curious, not trying to poke you or anything

#34 Posted by FadeToBlackBolt (23334 posts) - - Show Bio

@Jorgevy said:

@FadeToBlackBolt said:

@Jorgevy: Ugh, damn. Thanks for the info, but damn.

I mean i agree, that isn't my idea of colour for such a transformation, but why the dislike? I mean, Im actually more pissed about the god thing, the transformation colour doesn't concern me that much... BTW Im just curious, not trying to poke you or anything

No, no, I don't care about the transformation colour. I'm just bummed it's Goku again. If it wasn't the transformation, and was just Goku powering up, then it means there's a chance that SSG will come from more than just Goku getting mad...again.

#35 Posted by MisterGuyMan (1953 posts) - - Show Bio

@FadeToBlackBolt:

SSG will more likely come from Goku's desire to protect than just raw anger. Vegeta mentions in Goku's fight with Kid Buu that he always thought his love for his friends made him weak but it actually always forced him to surpass his boundaries or something to that effect.

I honestly don't see the big deal about the God transformation. To me it's the logical conclusion for the characters. They've love since surpassed their universe's gods. One of them can make a God like being that grants wishes. The gods themselves call to them for help. In an interview Toriyama said that Bills was the next logical villain because at this point he can't conceive of other realistic opponents for them.

#36 Posted by FadeToBlackBolt (23334 posts) - - Show Bio

@MisterGuyMan: I don't care about God name or anything, I'm just annoyed it's Goku YET AGAIN, who has to save them. I was hoping that with DBKai coming out, Toriyama might have returned to his original vision of Gohan protecting the Earth now that Goku is gone. But nope, still back to the same boring crap that spawned the Majin Buu saga.

The best thing after the Cell Saga was Fusion Reborn. Why? Because Gogeta saved the day and all of the Z-Fighters got a chance to shine.

#37 Posted by Jorgevy (5114 posts) - - Show Bio

@FadeToBlackBolt: oh I get it, yes that is obviously not cool. the oozaru probably means it's rage

@MisterGuyMan: we'll see. but what's that about making a god like being that grants wishes? if you're talking about the dragon fist, how's that supposed to be Shenlong? it's just the image of him, not him literally, all the power comes from Goku.

also, I could have agreed with you if the japanese name was Supah Saiyajin Kami! but you clearly hear the announcer say Super Saiyan Godo, which IMO means they are actually going for the western conceptualization, instead of the more spiritual eastern way - the kamis

#38 Posted by Jorgevy (5114 posts) - - Show Bio

@FadeToBlackBolt said:

@MisterGuyMan: I don't care about God name or anything, I'm just annoyed it's Goku YET AGAIN, who has to save them. I was hoping that with DBKai coming out, Toriyama might have returned to his original vision of Gohan protecting the Earth now that Goku is gone. But nope, still back to the same boring crap that spawned the Majin Buu saga.

The best thing after the Cell Saga was Fusion Reborn. Why? Because Gogeta saved the day and all of the Z-Fighters got a chance to shine.

that also pisses me off a lot as you can see in my OP. I really REALLY thought it was going to be Gogeta SSj3 to save the day. you know

Vegeta sees the people he now sees as friends in peril, goes SSj3, Goku is down he can't go on, all the Z fighters make a last ditch effort and Vegeta takes Goku by the arm and tells him it's time to do it. maybe even a Potara fusion instead, that would be even more awesome. then they go Gogeta/Vegito SSj3 and with the help of everyone they kick Bills butt

#39 Posted by MisterGuyMan (1953 posts) - - Show Bio

@Jorgevy said:

@MisterGuyMan: we'll see. but what's that about making a god like being that grants wishes? if you're talking about the dragon fist, how's that supposed to be Shenlong? it's just the image of him, not him literally, all the power comes from Goku.

also, I could have agreed with you if the japanese name was Supah Saiyajin Kami! but you clearly hear the announcer say Super Saiyan Godo, which IMO means they are actually going for the western conceptualization, instead of the more spiritual eastern way - the kamis

I was talking about Kami and later Dende. The thing about Dragonballs is that the Eternal Dragon cannot exceed the power of its Namek creator. That's why you couldn't use them to destroy the Vegeta/Nappa since they were more powerful than Kami. He literally makes a dragon out of nothing that attacks. The only other similar event is the Eternal Dragon. Earlier the Eternal Dragon was portrayed as infinite and all powerful but as the series went on its limitations became obvious.

As I said earlier Goku's Dragonfist attack is the most unexplained attack in the series. I'm not saying its Shenlong specifically but making Dragons like the Eternal Dragon is possible since we know that Nameks make them. If Dende can make one then why can't Goku who's long since surpassed the other gods? So yeah Goku's Dragon is definitely not the Eternal Dragon but I'm hoping that if Goku becomes a Super Saiyan God then his Dragonfist will make far more sense as either a weaponized version of the Eternal Dragon that he creates in battle or possibly an extension of his new powers as a God to create something as opposed to Bills who destroys. Otherwise what's the point in actually creating a dragon if it's just a glorified fireball? Why waste the effort in making it look like anything at all when a normal energy blast appearance will do the same thing?

#40 Posted by FadeToBlackBolt (23334 posts) - - Show Bio

@MisterGuyMan said:

@Jorgevy said:

@MisterGuyMan: we'll see. but what's that about making a god like being that grants wishes? if you're talking about the dragon fist, how's that supposed to be Shenlong? it's just the image of him, not him literally, all the power comes from Goku.

also, I could have agreed with you if the japanese name was Supah Saiyajin Kami! but you clearly hear the announcer say Super Saiyan Godo, which IMO means they are actually going for the western conceptualization, instead of the more spiritual eastern way - the kamis

I was talking about Kami and later Dende. The thing about Dragonballs is that the Eternal Dragon cannot exceed the power of its Namek creator. That's why you couldn't use them to destroy the Vegeta/Nappa since they were more powerful than Kami. He literally makes a dragon out of nothing that attacks. The only other similar event is the Eternal Dragon. Earlier the Eternal Dragon was portrayed as infinite and all powerful but as the series went on its limitations became obvious.

As I said earlier Goku's Dragonfist attack is the most unexplained attack in the series. I'm not saying its Shenlong specifically but making Dragons like the Eternal Dragon is possible since we know that Nameks make them. If Dende can make one then why can't Goku who's long since surpassed the other gods? So yeah Goku's Dragon is definitely not the Eternal Dragon but I'm hoping that if Goku becomes a Super Saiyan God then his Dragonfist will make far more sense as either a weaponized version of the Eternal Dragon that he creates in battle or possibly an extension of his new powers as a God to create something as opposed to Bills who destroys. Otherwise what's the point in actually creating a dragon if it's just a glorified fireball? Why waste the effort in making it look like anything at all when a normal energy blast appearance will do the same thing?

I didn't think he actually created a Dragon, rather it was just a visual cue used to make the attack look more interesting. Most likely it would just be an energy trail, but because Goku is attacking "with the fury of a dragon" or some such thing, it was just animated as a dragon.

#41 Posted by Jorgevy (5114 posts) - - Show Bio

@FadeToBlackBolt said:

@MisterGuyMan said:

@Jorgevy said:

@MisterGuyMan: we'll see. but what's that about making a god like being that grants wishes? if you're talking about the dragon fist, how's that supposed to be Shenlong? it's just the image of him, not him literally, all the power comes from Goku.

also, I could have agreed with you if the japanese name was Supah Saiyajin Kami! but you clearly hear the announcer say Super Saiyan Godo, which IMO means they are actually going for the western conceptualization, instead of the more spiritual eastern way - the kamis

I was talking about Kami and later Dende. The thing about Dragonballs is that the Eternal Dragon cannot exceed the power of its Namek creator. That's why you couldn't use them to destroy the Vegeta/Nappa since they were more powerful than Kami. He literally makes a dragon out of nothing that attacks. The only other similar event is the Eternal Dragon. Earlier the Eternal Dragon was portrayed as infinite and all powerful but as the series went on its limitations became obvious.

As I said earlier Goku's Dragonfist attack is the most unexplained attack in the series. I'm not saying its Shenlong specifically but making Dragons like the Eternal Dragon is possible since we know that Nameks make them. If Dende can make one then why can't Goku who's long since surpassed the other gods? So yeah Goku's Dragon is definitely not the Eternal Dragon but I'm hoping that if Goku becomes a Super Saiyan God then his Dragonfist will make far more sense as either a weaponized version of the Eternal Dragon that he creates in battle or possibly an extension of his new powers as a God to create something as opposed to Bills who destroys. Otherwise what's the point in actually creating a dragon if it's just a glorified fireball? Why waste the effort in making it look like anything at all when a normal energy blast appearance will do the same thing?

I didn't think he actually created a Dragon, rather it was just a visual cue used to make the attack look more interesting. Most likely it would just be an energy trail, but because Goku is attacking "with the fury of a dragon" or some such thing, it was just animated as a dragon.

this. there's not point in making the energy look like a dragon but we are talking about anime/manga! there's plenty of attacks that have visual cues like that. there really isnt a point beside the whole metaphorical or awesome badass side of it.

#42 Posted by mhanuroth (208 posts) - - Show Bio

why they downplay vegeta? In this movie he becomes SS3 and then kakarot becomes SSG. why toriyama hates vegeta? At least he should make him save the day with a tactic like in buu saga?

#43 Posted by MisterGuyMan (1953 posts) - - Show Bio

@FadeToBlackBolt: @Jorgevy:

Like I said it's the most unexplained attack in the series. I know you can't prove it either way but I'm just pointing out that it would make more sense if Goku just copied whatever the Nameks do than making a literal Dragon out of Nothing fireball. Since it only canonically appears in a noncanon movie there's little to talk about it. I'm just explaining what I personally think it should be elaborated to be in the future.

What I've always wanted was to really incorporate all the forgotten attacks of the series. You don't even have to go to Gogeta to get ridiculous powerups. What's stopping Goku/Vegeta/Gohan use Tien's Multiform technique then have each perform the fusion dance to get two more powerful versions of the original character. Then Potara fusion those guys. Arguably when the fusion dance wears off the Potara fusion will fade too. That's just one of the ones I keep thinking of. There are others but the only other major one is the Dragonfist which I think only makes sense if it's an actual dragon and not a ki blast that just looks like a Dragon.

#44 Posted by FadeToBlackBolt (23334 posts) - - Show Bio

@MisterGuyMan: Also, why do Zenkais never work any more? lol

#45 Posted by Jorgevy (5114 posts) - - Show Bio

@mhanuroth said:

why they downplay vegeta? In this movie he becomes SS3 and then kakarot becomes SSG. why toriyama hates vegeta? At least he should make him save the day with a tactic like in buu saga?

there's no confirmation Vegeta goes SSj3. the only transformation confirmed is SSG

toriyama did want to make Vegeta the hero in the Buu Saga and have him destroy buu and sacrifice himself, but you know gokuliebers..... they dont let him

@MisterGuyMan: 1- yeah i agree, we can't do much more than speculate. IMO the eternal dragon is specific to the nameks and must have to do with some type of magic or ki specific to them. like how they heal other people. they are the only ones who have created dragons, so I dont know. but it is possible goku could muster enough power for that. I know GT is non canon, or supposedly, but SSj4 shows a bit of reality warping/magic potential.

2- I totally agree with this too. there's so many techniques they could go retrieve. so much stuff. in DB, the battles were much more techncal, I kinda miss that. in DBZ not so much but in this movie Toriyama could go and get some old stuff and renew them. I also miss seeing Vegeta use Galic Gun, or Gohan use masenko. I dont know, I just think some stuff was left in the past and completelly forgotten about

#46 Posted by Jorgevy (5114 posts) - - Show Bio

@FadeToBlackBolt said:

@MisterGuyMan: Also, why do Zenkais never work any more? lol

I thought they did? what are you talking about? was there an instance where they dont work or was just never used again?

#47 Posted by FadeToBlackBolt (23334 posts) - - Show Bio

@Jorgevy said:

@FadeToBlackBolt said:

@MisterGuyMan: Also, why do Zenkais never work any more? lol

I thought they did? what are you talking about? was there an instance where they dont work or was just never used again?

I think the idea was that once you go Super Saiyan, you are never able to use Zenkai again, because no one does (other than Cell) after the Frieza Saga.

#48 Edited by MisterGuyMan (1953 posts) - - Show Bio

@Jorgevy: @FadeToBlackBolt:

Zenkai's another one. If Vegeta got a lot more powerful by lowering his PL then letting Krillin smack him around then that's all I would do if I were a Saiyan. It might suck getting beat to near death but it'd be the lazy man's way to get more powerful. Healing me would be all Dende would do all day. I never thought they got rid of it. I just assumed they never mentioned it. Everytime Saiyans recover they're always more powerful. Some of that can be attributed to training but some can be to Zenkai too.

I think in DB reality warping is close to being confirmed dependent on your inherent strength. Goku if he's powerful enough can just no sell the reality warping of the Black Dragon in GT. The Eternal Dragon is useless against more powerful enemies. Kami can mind control people too and he says he can't do anything to Vegeta. In short they're cool when fighting some one on your level but useless if you can't beat them to death with your fist anyway.

#49 Posted by BurningFlame (25 posts) - - Show Bio

I think Vegeta is going Super Saiyan 3.

The more I analyse the trailer, the more it appears that Goku will indeed be the one to achieve Super Saiyan God (As a result of some insane plot device). At this point it seems unlikely, but I really hope the trailer is trolling us. There is some hope yet, but I feel uneasy about this. The original soundtrack for the movie has been revealed, and can be used to decipher the plot - http://www.saiyanisland.com/2013/02/dragon-ball-z-battle-of-gods-original-soundtrack-story-order-revealed/

(Possible Spoilers)

Toriyama, don't disappoint us. We don't need Goku to save the day again.

#50 Posted by comicace3 (1833 posts) - - Show Bio

Haha it was just a joke. Lol