#1 Posted by evilvegeta74 (4672 posts) - - Show Bio

You can go to these battle forums and pit one character against another and come up with multiple results. The one thing that agitates me the most is when you get two uber powerful characters and one is relatively slower than the other, but faster than the human eye can follow. Normally you'd think possible stale mate, but there's the pulling of the same tired card, "Oh he can speed blitz the other character and win". I get so tired of that notion, does anybody ever take into account that speed blitzing may actually push the victim over the edge resulting in a massive A** kicking! I just can't imagine someone speed blitzing certain characters in comics when ultimately, we know that the character is eventually come back wit ha barrage of ugly, likely resulting in the end of a battle. I not a fan of the speed blitz excuse, but when you hit an uber powerful character with the same amount of force, at high speeds, the character on the recieving end is going to get use to the level of force from the punch. This is almost like a boxing match where one opponent deduces he can take the punches and knocks his opponent out. This is how see the speed blitz thing.

#2 Posted by JonSmith (4231 posts) - - Show Bio

Strength means nothing if you're not fast enough to hit your opponent. You can be as strong as you like, and as mad as you like, and it won't mean a thing if you can't make contact. That's the speedblitz excuse: This character, in this state, is so fast that the opponent can't even hit them.

As for a character tanking the punches, again, even if they have the durability to tank the speeds their opponent is going at, if they can't hit them in return, it doesn't matter.

And when you start to get into the higher tier speedsters, such as Ultimate Quicksilver and the Flashes, or people with comparable speed, such as Superman, in other words, people who can approach the speed of light, then durability doesn't matter. If a character hits the speed of light, and then hits their opponent at that speed, it doesn't matter how durable the opponent is. Unless they've got some kind of super magical resistance to laws of physics, they're going to get completely obliterated. I'm not talking mere 'KO', I'm talking there not even being enough to make a fine mist.

#3 Posted by JediXMan (33040 posts) - - Show Bio

@JonSmith said:

Strength means nothing if you're not fast enough to hit your opponent. You can be as strong as you like, and as mad as you like, and it won't mean a thing if you can't make contact. That's the speedblitz excuse: This character, in this state, is so fast that the opponent can't even hit them.

As for a character tanking the punches, again, even if they have the durability to tank the speeds their opponent is going at, if they can't hit them in return, it doesn't matter.

And when you start to get into the higher tier speedsters, such as Ultimate Quicksilver and the Flashes, or people with comparable speed, such as Superman, in other words, people who can approach the speed of light, then durability doesn't matter. If a character hits the speed of light, and then hits their opponent at that speed, it doesn't matter how durable the opponent is. Unless they've got some kind of super magical resistance to laws of physics, they're going to get completely obliterated. I'm not talking mere 'KO', I'm talking there not even being enough to make a fine mist.

This, especially the first paragraph.

I realize a lot of users are irritated by "speedblitzes," but that's just how it is.

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#4 Posted by Razero (339 posts) - - Show Bio

Speedblitz is an annoying but legitimate argument.

#5 Posted by Dark_Vengeance_ (15329 posts) - - Show Bio

@Razero said:

Speedblitz is an annoying but legitimate argument.

#6 Posted by evilvegeta74 (4672 posts) - - Show Bio

@JonSmith said:

Strength means nothing if you're not fast enough to hit your opponent. You can be as strong as you like, and as mad as you like, and it won't mean a thing if you can't make contact. That's the speedblitz excuse: This character, in this state, is so fast that the opponent can't even hit them.

As for a character tanking the punches, again, even if they have the durability to tank the speeds their opponent is going at, if they can't hit them in return, it doesn't matter.

And when you start to get into the higher tier speedsters, such as Ultimate Quicksilver and the Flashes, or people with comparable speed, such as Superman, in other words, people who can approach the speed of light, then durability doesn't matter. If a character hits the speed of light, and then hits their opponent at that speed, it doesn't matter how durable the opponent is. Unless they've got some kind of super magical resistance to laws of physics, they're going to get completely obliterated. I'm not talking mere 'KO', I'm talking there not even being enough to make a fine mist.

@JediXMan said:

@JonSmith said:

Strength means nothing if you're not fast enough to hit your opponent. You can be as strong as you like, and as mad as you like, and it won't mean a thing if you can't make contact. That's the speedblitz excuse: This character, in this state, is so fast that the opponent can't even hit them.

As for a character tanking the punches, again, even if they have the durability to tank the speeds their opponent is going at, if they can't hit them in return, it doesn't matter.

And when you start to get into the higher tier speedsters, such as Ultimate Quicksilver and the Flashes, or people with comparable speed, such as Superman, in other words, people who can approach the speed of light, then durability doesn't matter. If a character hits the speed of light, and then hits their opponent at that speed, it doesn't matter how durable the opponent is. Unless they've got some kind of super magical resistance to laws of physics, they're going to get completely obliterated. I'm not talking mere 'KO', I'm talking there not even being enough to make a fine mist.

This, especially the first paragraph.

I realize a lot of users are irritated by "speedblitzes," but that's just how it is.

So you guys believe that a speed blitz would affect someone like the Hulk, If anything I'd say it would make him very angry and then you know the rest. There are scans of the guy getting angry and grabbing Spidey out of the blue even with his senses and all. I'm sorry but multiple punches means someone gets tired faster. Also if you've ever played football and ran the ball, naturally after a while you get used to the hits , and shrug them off. Do you think if Martian Manhunter used a Speedblitz ion say He-Man , He-Man would say " oh these hits are really starting to hurt"seriously! Would it work on Shazam,Blue Marvel,New Hyperion , Hercules etc..... I don't see it. It's a cop out in battle threads = to Batman prep time. This is my take on it. Another thing, when you exercise ,they say no pain no gain, eventually the exercise doesn't hurt because you become immune due to the repetiveness, if this sounds logical. Once again check out what happens in real boxing matches, this is why I'm saying that speed blitz thing, is a cop out.

#7 Posted by JonSmith (4231 posts) - - Show Bio

@evilvegeta74 said:

So you guys believe that a speed blitz would affect someone like the Hulk, If anything I'd say it would make him very angry and then you know the rest. There are scans of the guy getting angry and grabbing Spidey out of the blue even with his senses and all. I'm sorry but multiple punches means someone gets tired faster. Also if you've ever played football and ran the ball, naturally after a while you get used to the hits , and shrug them off. Do you think if Martian Manhunter used a Speedblitz ion say He-Man , He-Man would say " oh these hits are really starting to hurt"seriously! Would it work on Shazam,Blue Marvel,New Hyperion , Hercules etc..... I don't see it. It's a cop out in battle threads = to Batman prep time. This is my take on it. Another thing, when you exercise ,they say no pain no gain, eventually the exercise doesn't hurt because you become immune due to the repetiveness, if this sounds logical. Once again check out what happens in real boxing matches, this is why I'm saying that speed blitz thing, is a cop out.

For starters, an increase in durability through trauma takes healing from the trauma, stronger than before. I don't think that's applicable in a fight. And you're not taking into account the speeds we're talking. If we're talking just peak human or such, then yeah, the speed difference doesn't matter. But when we're talking speedblitzers, again, like Ultimate Quicksilver and the Flashes, or Superman class speedsters, who can reach the speed of light, the opponents durability does not matter in the slightest. As things approach lightspeed, they gain more mass. To the point that at lightspeed, an object would have INFINITE MASS. So picture someone getting hit by every planet in the universe, at the same time, times INFINITY. That should give you a vague idea how powerful a hit like that. And if you think ANYONE can tank a hit like that without straight up avoiding the hit with intangibility or something, then you are out of your mind.

#8 Posted by JediXMan (33040 posts) - - Show Bio

@evilvegeta74 said:

So you guys believe that a speed blitz would affect someone like the Hulk, If anything I'd say it would make him very angry and then you know the rest. There are scans of the guy getting angry and grabbing Spidey out of the blue even with his senses and all. I'm sorry but multiple punches means someone gets tired faster. Also if you've ever played football and ran the ball, naturally after a while you get used to the hits , and shrug them off. Do you think if Martian Manhunter used a Speedblitz ion say He-Man , He-Man would say " oh these hits are really starting to hurt"seriously! Would it work on Shazam,Blue Marvel,New Hyperion , Hercules etc..... I don't see it. It's a cop out in battle threads = to Batman prep time. This is my take on it. Another thing, when you exercise ,they say no pain no gain, eventually the exercise doesn't hurt because you become immune due to the repetiveness, if this sounds logical. Once again check out what happens in real boxing matches, this is why I'm saying that speed blitz thing, is a cop out.

Boxing, maybe. In many martial arts (see: Wing Chun), speed > strength. The principles of Wing Chun involve using an opponent's size and strength against them. It also involves them using repeated strikes to weaken the opponent. You're assuming that fast punches = weak.But this does not have to do with speedblitzing; your kind of logic only applies to street level combat.

Are you familiar with the infinite mass punch? An IMP is actually stronger than Superman's hits.

When something approaches the speed of light, its mass increases. Meaning, if Flash hits something at the speed of light, that hit is stronger than anything Hulk can dish out.

Speed = power. 90% of all speed blitzes are performed by light speeders, not guys like Quicksilver. If you are not a light speeder, you can't hang with light speeders. Simple as that.

Also, Shazam (Captain Marvel) has reacted at light speed. Light speed reaction means he can dodge or, in some other way, react to an attack by a light speeder. But he lacks the ability to hit back, and an IMP will drop him.

But yes, a speedblitz would work on Hercules. I can't speak for Blue Marvel or New Hyperion, because I don't know what they can do.

Again: you may not like it, but that's just how it is.

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#9 Posted by Wolfrazer (9581 posts) - - Show Bio

The only thing that truly bothers me about it, is that it doesn't offer any debate....why bother with the fight then, if the answer is just gonna be "Oh...so and so speedblitz" that is kinda retarded and is a waste of a thread.

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#10 Posted by JediXMan (33040 posts) - - Show Bio

@Wolfrazer said:

The only thing that truly bothers me about it, is that it doesn't offer any debate....why bother with the fight then, if the answer is just gonna be "Oh...so and so speedblitz" that is kinda retarded and is a waste of a thread.

Most of the time, I'd say this is the fault of the TC.

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#11 Edited by JonSmith (4231 posts) - - Show Bio

@JediXMan said:

@evilvegeta74 said:

So you guys believe that a speed blitz would affect someone like the Hulk, If anything I'd say it would make him very angry and then you know the rest. There are scans of the guy getting angry and grabbing Spidey out of the blue even with his senses and all. I'm sorry but multiple punches means someone gets tired faster. Also if you've ever played football and ran the ball, naturally after a while you get used to the hits , and shrug them off. Do you think if Martian Manhunter used a Speedblitz ion say He-Man , He-Man would say " oh these hits are really starting to hurt"seriously! Would it work on Shazam,Blue Marvel,New Hyperion , Hercules etc..... I don't see it. It's a cop out in battle threads = to Batman prep time. This is my take on it. Another thing, when you exercise ,they say no pain no gain, eventually the exercise doesn't hurt because you become immune due to the repetiveness, if this sounds logical. Once again check out what happens in real boxing matches, this is why I'm saying that speed blitz thing, is a cop out.

Boxing, maybe. In many martial arts (see: Wing Chun), speed > strength. The principles of Wing Chun involve using an opponent's size and strength against them. It also involves them using repeated strikes to weaken the opponent. You're assuming that fast punches = weak.But this does not have to do with speedblitzing; your kind of logic only applies to street level combat.

To provide an admittedly rather dramatic example of Wing Chun in action, see here, where Ip Man (the dude dressed in black) uses said style of fighting to take on ten black belts. By your logic, EvilVegeta, these men should have tanked Ip's punches, and just kept coming until they hit him. Yet NONE of them ever actually HIT him. They make contact, and he turns it against them, despite them having the advantage of superior cumulative strength.

Loading Video...
#12 Posted by evilvegeta74 (4672 posts) - - Show Bio

@JonSmith said:

@evilvegeta74 said:

So you guys believe that a speed blitz would affect someone like the Hulk, If anything I'd say it would make him very angry and then you know the rest. There are scans of the guy getting angry and grabbing Spidey out of the blue even with his senses and all. I'm sorry but multiple punches means someone gets tired faster. Also if you've ever played football and ran the ball, naturally after a while you get used to the hits , and shrug them off. Do you think if Martian Manhunter used a Speedblitz ion say He-Man , He-Man would say " oh these hits are really starting to hurt"seriously! Would it work on Shazam,Blue Marvel,New Hyperion , Hercules etc..... I don't see it. It's a cop out in battle threads = to Batman prep time. This is my take on it. Another thing, when you exercise ,they say no pain no gain, eventually the exercise doesn't hurt because you become immune due to the repetiveness, if this sounds logical. Once again check out what happens in real boxing matches, this is why I'm saying that speed blitz thing, is a cop out.

For starters, an increase in durability through trauma takes healing from the trauma, stronger than before. I don't think that's applicable in a fight. And you're not taking into account the speeds we're talking. If we're talking just peak human or such, then yeah, the speed difference doesn't matter. But when we're talking speedblitzers, again, like Ultimate Quicksilver and the Flashes, or Superman class speedsters, who can reach the speed of light, the opponents durability does not matter in the slightest. As things approach lightspeed, they gain more mass. To the point that at lightspeed, an object would have INFINITE MASS. So picture someone getting hit by every planet in the universe, at the same time, times INFINITY. That should give you a vague idea how powerful a hit like that. And if you think ANYONE can tank a hit like that without straight up avoiding the hit with intangibility or something, then you are out of your mind.

So you are telling me that you can put two ordinary men in a squared circle same size, almost similar strength,the one who throws the fastest punches will defeat the one who more durable. Between the speed guy with average intelligence and the durable guy with average intelligence. Odd are, the durable guy will be the last man standing, not the guy who punched his self to death. I was once an honor student and fully understand what you're saying. Now you can big bang theory me the death with all the equations,but you know fully well what, I'm saying here. It doesn't take a brain surgeon to understand what I'm saying here. That speed blitz thing just doesn't cut it with me. Speaking of which what happens when you get two character speed blitzing,DBZ! I can't except the speed blitz thing! You can defend it til your lungs turn blue!

#13 Posted by JonSmith (4231 posts) - - Show Bio

@evilvegeta74 said:

So you are telling me that you can put two ordinary men in a squared circle same size, almost similar strength,the one who throws the fastest punches will defeat the one who more durable. Between the speed guy with average intelligence and the durable guy with average intelligence. Odd are, the durable guy will be the last man standing, not the guy who punched his self to death. I was once an honor student and fully understand what you're saying. Now you can big bang theory me the death with all the equations,but you know fully well what, I'm saying here. It doesn't take a brain surgeon to understand what I'm saying here. That speed blitz thing just doesn't cut it with me. Speaking of which what happens when you get two character speed blitzing,DBZ! I can't except the speed blitz thing! You can defend it til your lungs turn blue!

I find it endlessly amusing that I posted a video that completely defeats your entire paragraph before you even posted it.

#14 Edited by SC (15020 posts) - - Show Bio

The only problem I have with this argument is that speed is one of the most inconsistent aspects of comics. This means that posters will use some examples of speed but not others. Its not just fans or readers though, its comic book writers. Look at the infinite punch thing? Okay so a writer tried to apply a bit of real life physics, okay only probably is they misuse the term infinity. If Flash for example could actually travel as fast as light and faster, to actually build up to having infinite mass, he would have to have infinite energy to get him there or circumvent that problem some other way (like a plot device like the speed force - but that opens up more cans of worms than closing the lids of others)

So most comic readers just really aren't so good with things like infinity or speed - imagine if Wolverine over one issue randomly went from 5 foot to 20 foot to 1000 foot to 2 foot, to ten inches to one inch because the artist wasn't good enough to draw him the right scale? That basically happens in comics when it comes to speed but readers either don't care, don't understand, don't mind, or just accept it and move on. Hence the key to undermining "speed blitz" lies in pointing out the massive discrepancies that objectively exist, subjectively exist and exist because word of god knows it exists and readily admits it exists.

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#15 Posted by evilvegeta74 (4672 posts) - - Show Bio

@Wolfrazer said:

The only thing that truly bothers me about it, is that it doesn't offer any debate....why bother with the fight then, if the answer is just gonna be "Oh...so and so speedblitz" that is kinda retarded and is a waste of a thread.

Thats a great point! Actually the best point!@JonSmith said:

@JediXMan said:

@evilvegeta74 said:

So you guys believe that a speed blitz would affect someone like the Hulk, If anything I'd say it would make him very angry and then you know the rest. There are scans of the guy getting angry and grabbing Spidey out of the blue even with his senses and all. I'm sorry but multiple punches means someone gets tired faster. Also if you've ever played football and ran the ball, naturally after a while you get used to the hits , and shrug them off. Do you think if Martian Manhunter used a Speedblitz ion say He-Man , He-Man would say " oh these hits are really starting to hurt"seriously! Would it work on Shazam,Blue Marvel,New Hyperion , Hercules etc..... I don't see it. It's a cop out in battle threads = to Batman prep time. This is my take on it. Another thing, when you exercise ,they say no pain no gain, eventually the exercise doesn't hurt because you become immune due to the repetiveness, if this sounds logical. Once again check out what happens in real boxing matches, this is why I'm saying that speed blitz thing, is a cop out.

Boxing, maybe. In many martial arts (see: Wing Chun), speed > strength. The principles of Wing Chun involve using an opponent's size and strength against them. It also involves them using repeated strikes to weaken the opponent. You're assuming that fast punches = weak.But this does not have to do with speedblitzing; your kind of logic only applies to street level combat.

To provide an admittedly rather dramatic example of Wing Chun in action, see here, where Ip Man (the dude dressed in black) uses said style of fighting to take on ten black belts. By your logic, EvilVegeta, these men should have tanked Ip's punches, and just kept coming until they hit him. Yet NONE of them ever actually HIT him. They make contact, and he turns it against them, despite them having the advantage of superior cumulative strength.

Loading Video...

This was a great movie! Ip man,@JediXMan said:

@evilvegeta74 said:

So you guys believe that a speed blitz would affect someone like the Hulk, If anything I'd say it would make him very angry and then you know the rest. There are scans of the guy getting angry and grabbing Spidey out of the blue even with his senses and all. I'm sorry but multiple punches means someone gets tired faster. Also if you've ever played football and ran the ball, naturally after a while you get used to the hits , and shrug them off. Do you think if Martian Manhunter used a Speedblitz ion say He-Man , He-Man would say " oh these hits are really starting to hurt"seriously! Would it work on Shazam,Blue Marvel,New Hyperion , Hercules etc..... I don't see it. It's a cop out in battle threads = to Batman prep time. This is my take on it. Another thing, when you exercise ,they say no pain no gain, eventually the exercise doesn't hurt because you become immune due to the repetiveness, if this sounds logical. Once again check out what happens in real boxing matches, this is why I'm saying that speed blitz thing, is a cop out.

Boxing, maybe. In many martial arts (see: Wing Chun), speed > strength. The principles of Wing Chun involve using an opponent's size and strength against them. It also involves them using repeated strikes to weaken the opponent. You're assuming that fast punches = weak.But this does not have to do with speedblitzing; your kind of logic only applies to street level combat.

Are you familiar with the infinite mass punch? An IMP is actually stronger than Superman's hits.

When something approaches the speed of light, its mass increases. Meaning, if Flash hits something at the speed of light, that hit is stronger than anything Hulk can dish out.

Speed = power. 90% of all speed blitzes are performed by light speeders, not guys like Quicksilver. If you are not a light speeder, you can't hang with light speeders. Simple as that.

Also, Shazam (Captain Marvel) has reacted at light speed. Light speed reaction means he can dodge or, in some other way, react to an attack by a light speeder. But he lacks the ability to hit back, and an IMP will drop him.

But yes, a speedblitz would work on Hercules. I can't speak for Blue Marvel or New Hyperion, because I don't know what they can do.

Again: you may not like it, but that's just how it is.

All of you guys bring up great points,which I respect!

#16 Posted by GunGunW (1020 posts) - - Show Bio

I don't find speed blitzing as annoying as stupid hax powers. Like stopping time and using your sword to cut up your opponent to death. That is what I think is really annoying. Speed blitzes wouldn't be needed if not for that uselessness. It's more like a reverse screw you, IMO.

#17 Posted by JediXMan (33040 posts) - - Show Bio

@SC:

I, too, find it odd that they call it an "infinite mass punch" when the mass is not infinite, as technically the mass would increase as he approaches, reaches, and exceeds the speed of light.

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#18 Posted by SC (15020 posts) - - Show Bio

@JediXMan said:

@SC:

I, too, find it odd that they call it an "infinite mass punch" when the mass is not infinite, as technically the mass would increase as he approaches, reaches, and exceeds the speed of light.

Exactly, its right up there with Iceman making things literally absolute zero, sounds kind of cool, has a bit of reason behind it (kinda) for a few comic writers (some who appreciate consistency more than others), it is fiction primarily meant to entertain so whats the harm, but the actual repercussions or terminology or science involved just involve consequences far about what is intended with the Flash and Iceman characters.

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#19 Posted by JediXMan (33040 posts) - - Show Bio

@SC said:

@JediXMan said:

@SC:

I, too, find it odd that they call it an "infinite mass punch" when the mass is not infinite, as technically the mass would increase as he approaches, reaches, and exceeds the speed of light.

Exactly, its right up there with Iceman making things literally absolute zero, sounds kind of cool, has a bit of reason behind it (kinda) for a few comic writers (some who appreciate consistency more than others), it is fiction primarily meant to entertain so whats the harm, but the actual repercussions or terminology or science involved just involve consequences far about what is intended with the Flash and Iceman characters.

But then again, the Flash in general break the law of physics, in that it should be impossible because the increase in mass would kill him, but he can do it because of the Speedforce. So one could argue that Flash can perform a literal "infinite mass punch" due to the Deus ex Machina that is the Speedforce (though even that makes no sense).

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#20 Posted by SC (15020 posts) - - Show Bio

@JediXMan said:

But then again, the Flash in general break the law of physics, in that it should be impossible because the increase in mass would kill him, but he can do it because of the Speedforce. So one could argue that Flash can perform a literal "infinite mass punch" due to the Deus ex Machina that is the Speedforce (though even that makes no sense).

Well depends sort of. Flash can break the laws of physics as "we" understand it, thats what a writer can say to create a sort of creative buffer, which I think all comic fans should be happy with. However its not so much that Flash breaks the laws of physics as much as the laws of physics have to be rewritten to accommodate new information, just liker it does in real life, tweaks and so on, similar with Iceman. So its the consequences of those laws being rewritten as opposed to being broken. I remember in one issue Flash observed a few real life famous scientists (was probably Einstein and Newton and Hawkings) discussing the Speed force, I thought it was kind of cute. As a deus ex machina device, the Speed Force can/could be written to do a few different things, it could allow Flash to travel up to and faster than the speed of light without requiring that he build up infinite energy to carry around the bulk of having infinite mass, you could say Flash is shunted into some sub dimension with different physical laws than the main Universe, OR you could say the Speed Force allows Flash to travel up to and exceed the speed of light, he acquires infinite mass, and has infinite energy to actually power his movement - in which case its not that his punches become like neutron stars, which although are super dense aren't as super dense as something with infinite mass, its that his punches become infinitely strong as far as the infinite striking force applied, carried through with infinite momentum, and would probably be infinitely unwarranted anyway by virtue of something infinitely massed traveling powered by infinite energy would already be negatively affecting a Universe or reality already. Not just that but if the Speed Force can grant infinite energy for faster than light speed travel without circumventing the infinite mass or infinite energy problems, then that surplus of energy could allow Flash to do quite a lot, grow infinitely, increase density infinitely, increase strength infinitely, all such things that would be easy for a being that can amass infinite energy to move infinite mass. Or like I said there are a few ways that it could be used as a Deus ex Machina, just some are easier to reign in and or be more consistent with others. Especially when we realize that some DC writer just really thought the idea of an Infinite Mass Punch just sounded badass. Chances are that writer probably wasn't Grant Morrison or Jonathan Hickman or Warren Ellis and ultimately thats okay, because not many readers care about comics in this way.

I agree with your sentiment.

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#21 Posted by WaveMotionCannon (6483 posts) - - Show Bio

Speed blitz is a cop out used on the battle boards to vastly overrate DC characters and underrate Marvel characters instead of debating the outcome. It's applied to characters who don't use it consistently and even shown to be hot by far slower opponents. With the exception of Flash who pretty much speedblitzes every time ( VERY rarely at FTL ). Also speed force crutch aside wouldn't the IMP destroy Flash and everyone near him?

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#22 Posted by Lone_Wolf_and_Cub (6247 posts) - - Show Bio

@WaveMotionCannon Exactly.

#23 Posted by Sinfulplayerx (193 posts) - - Show Bio

That's what I was thinking. Wouldn't the person speedblitz punching also go splat from the impact? That seems like a draw not a win.

#24 Edited by evilvegeta74 (4672 posts) - - Show Bio

@WaveMotionCannon said:

@Sinfulplayerxsaid:
That's what I was thinking. Wouldn't the person speedblitz punching also go splat from the impact? That seems like a draw not a win.

@Lone_Wolf_and_Cub said:
@WaveMotionCannon Exactly.

Speed blitz is a cop out used on the battle boards to vastly overrate DC characters and underrate Marvel characters instead of debating the outcome. It's applied to characters who don't use it consistently and even shown to be hot by far slower opponents. With the exception of Flash who pretty much speedblitzes every time ( VERY rarely at FTL ). Also speed force crutch aside wouldn't the IMP destroy Flash and everyone near him?

Great insight guys!

#25 Posted by mk111 (3148 posts) - - Show Bio

I think speed-blitzing only works on some occasions.

For example, even if Flash speed-blitzed Darkseid or Doomsday.....it wouldn't matter. Flash would just break his hand.

Now, if Flash speed-blitzed, say, Penguin, than it works. :P

#26 Edited by evilvegeta74 (4672 posts) - - Show Bio

@mk111 said:

I think speed-blitzing only works on some occasions.

For example, even if Flash speed-blitzed Darkseid or Doomsday.....it wouldn't matter. Flash would just break his hand.

Now, if Flash speed-blitzed, say, Penguin, than it works. :P

Agreed! So is it impled that the Speed blitz would be useless according to WW or am i reading in to this the wrong way. Superman is actually one of the main characters I'm talking about since it's normally something used in battle forums by people. I 'd say it just got debunked!

#27 Posted by ArticulateT (289 posts) - - Show Bio

In my opinion, much like the statement "Planet-buster", Speed-blitz is, while a decent statement to make, somewhat dangerous in the sense that it can mean both everything and nothing.

Those who use Speed-Blitz or Planet-bust well tend to apply those things because they recognise that a character is capable of it in a combat situation, that the character, while having to concentrate on keeping themselves alive and keeping their opponent at bay, is capable of transferring that much speed or power with next to no difficulty.

Those who use it poorly tend to make assumptions that don't work terribly well when one thinks about it, such as a character being able to run/fly at a speed which is faster than that of their opponent, or having destroyed a planet, regardless of size or circumstance (this can lead onto some follies of ABC logic, but that's another story altogether). As an example, I can, last time I checked, sprint at a speed close to 20 miles per hour. Let's say I encounter a fellow who can run at about half that. Assuming we are both equally capable fighters if speed wasn't a problem, some would assume I can speed blitz the poor man because I am twice as fast a runner as he is. Of course, this is a terrible example, as I lack the stamina to maintain such a speed and, well, I'm a terrible fighter, so it could still go either way (this is a really bad example, of course).

Now, let's say I take on the Flash. As shown, the Flash is basically able to take a shower, take a moment to choose his costume, eat a delicious meal and then take pictures to post on facebook later before I take my first step. This is a good Speed-blitz because of such a sizable margin.

As mentioned by others before, It works in regards to striking since the closer you get to light speed, the more mass you gain and the more energy it takes to get you at that speed. If you manage to hit light-speed you gain infinite mass, so unless the target has infinite durability, the attack is certain to annihilate the target. A good example would be a bullet, as a bullet doesn't really do much if you poke someone with it, but when fired from a gun, is devastating in its potential.

It does make me wonder, however, whether it would be worth considering calling light-speed the be-all-end-all in regards to high levels of speed-blitzing. After all, if I remember correctly, it is the theory of Relativity, right? While light is clocked at 186,000 MPS, if an object is moving half that, light is still moving 186,000 mps faster than they are.

Would that mean that no-one short of omnipotence is capable of true light speed, but speedsters everywhere are capable of moving faster than 186,000 mps? I dunno, I didn't do too well in physics, and am likely wrong, but it's just a thought.

#28 Posted by evilvegeta74 (4672 posts) - - Show Bio

@JonSmith

Agreed! Did WW just confirm what I've been trying to say without all of the scientific explainations? Apparantely the Speed blitz wouldn't work on her either, and the Great Batman confirms this! I don't make this stuff up people !

#29 Posted by TomoFukuoka (1451 posts) - - Show Bio

So you guys believe that a speed blitz would affect someone like the Hulk, If anything I'd say it would make him very angry and then you know the rest.

Surfer is simply more powerful than Hulk, someone like Hulk should never beat a character like Gladiator

Silver Surfer has too many powers for example telepathy, putting people into flat 2d space and trapping them in his board, draining people's power, atomic manipulation and he is very durable and tanked shots from the Thing, She-Hulk, and other Avengers and heralds like those hits were nothing. Surfer is too much and should always win against Hulk

that is all

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/3/35308/2083299-silver_surfer_01__of_5___2011__005.jpg

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/3/37144/1292649-screenshot349.jpg

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/12/123129/2512328-2417306-brbgh_02_005_super.jpg

:O

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11/119238/3648136-3015288-1292639-screenshot226_super.jpg

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/3/35308/3556766-cable+%26+deadpool+10+%5B2005%5D+(street+samurai-dcp)+04.jpg

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11113/111137054/3977526-silver+surfer+18+019.jpg

http://media.animevice.com/uploads/0/6253/492351-1608821_dev_ss4_super.jpg

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11/119238/3648137-3015290-1755028-surfer_catches_hulk_super.jpg

Hulk loses and gets blitzed

#30 Posted by Conner_Wolf (1909 posts) - - Show Bio

@tomofukuoka: Yet Hulk does so all the time, you can't ignore his writing to be able to tangle with those powerful characters that are capable of FTL speeds. Silver Surfer has so many ways to beat Hulk yes, but someone like say, Wonder Woman doesn't.

#31 Posted by Conner_Wolf (1909 posts) - - Show Bio

@jonsmith: I personally agree, if someone is just a really strong character with no real speed, they wouldn't be able to hit a speedster, the problem on this site however is that even if a character is shown to be able to strike these incredibly fast characters, people will still call speedblitz because they refuse to believe the speed of a character, or the reaction speed of a character, simply because of low-end showings.

#32 Posted by SodamYat (7908 posts) - - Show Bio

@jedixman said:

@JonSmith said:

Strength means nothing if you're not fast enough to hit your opponent. You can be as strong as you like, and as mad as you like, and it won't mean a thing if you can't make contact. That's the speedblitz excuse: This character, in this state, is so fast that the opponent can't even hit them.

As for a character tanking the punches, again, even if they have the durability to tank the speeds their opponent is going at, if they can't hit them in return, it doesn't matter.

And when you start to get into the higher tier speedsters, such as Ultimate Quicksilver and the Flashes, or people with comparable speed, such as Superman, in other words, people who can approach the speed of light, then durability doesn't matter. If a character hits the speed of light, and then hits their opponent at that speed, it doesn't matter how durable the opponent is. Unless they've got some kind of super magical resistance to laws of physics, they're going to get completely obliterated. I'm not talking mere 'KO', I'm talking there not even being enough to make a fine mist.

This, especially the first paragraph.

I realize a lot of users are irritated by "speedblitzes," but that's just how it is.

#33 Posted by Cgoodness (11044 posts) - - Show Bio

Depends on the damage output of the speedblitz user, if it's like Quick Silver using it on Thing or Superman using it on Thanos it won't work they have to have the striking power to make it count

#34 Posted by RealityWarper (10284 posts) - - Show Bio

http://www.reddit.com/r/respectthreads/comments/2m4ov3/meta_the_nature_of_speed/

The Types of Speed:

  • Maximum Speed: Many characters have an impressive maximum speed, something they can achieve in straight lines or over a decent period of time. However, this is rarely applicable without a solid....
  • Acceleration: How quickly a character can achieve said speeds, and over what distance(can they do it in 2-3 step like the Flash, or do they need to move a good distance first)
  • Combat Speed: A term loved by many, but kind of a crap term in the first place. Combat Speed has a ton of facets that don't all line up.
    • Reflexes: The time a character takes to perceive and react to external stimuli is their reaction time. Their reflexes is that, and their ability to move their body in said time. Many characters have these twitch reflexes that allow them to dodge bullets, but who are by no means faster than the speed of sound. It has the sub-category of...
    • Perception/Observation Speed: The speed at which a character can perceive events.
    • Striking Speed: The speed a character can perform attacks, most notably the speed they can attack with their limbs.
    • Recovery Speed: The speed that a character can recover from their attacks, motions, etc. On many characters this will match their striking speed; however, some characters are capable of specific attacks that break this mold. An example would be Gomu Gomu Gatling.
  • Stopping Speed/Movement Recovery/Turn Radius: While not technically an aspect of "goes fast", this piece is important. Most characters cannot perform things like a zero point turn while running, or reverse directions while going very fast. These are the speeds and distances required for a character to stop forward motion and/or change direction. For examples on this, examine motor vehicles.

  • Special: Many manga/anime characters are capable of "special" speed. Wherein they can do some form of linear movement burst over a short distance. This usually exceeds their speed in every other area by a significant margin. Many times this burst will cause the character to arrive at a point and then attack, or include an attack as part of the technique. A solid western example would be Ruby Rose's semblance. A good example of this in Anime would be Hohō(Shunpo/Flash Step) from Bleach

Things that look like speed, but aren't

  • Prediction: Guessing what is going to happen and preemptively moving. Unlike reacting, a prediction does not include the characters reflexes to the same degree. For instance, aim-dodging. Aim-dodging is the act of simply not being where the assailant was aiming. This, and its superior form in precognition, are heavily tied with timing.

  • Precognition: Almost identical to prediction, but significantly more powerful. When precognition is involved it should severely damage the credibility of most reaction, speed or skill feats.

  • Timing: Some "speed" feats are more about timing your actions than how fast you do them. Timing is frequently the answer to characters catching or avoiding things that are incapable of changing course, like bullets. Catching arrows or a whip would be good examples of timing. Timing something in an incredibly small window does not mean a character is that fast.

Things that aid speed

  • Training: Trained actions, like strikes or dodges, are going to be performed reflexively and at a much higher speed relative to the character than ones performed untrained. This is why Wonder Woman has better reflexes/reactions than than Superman.

  • Scouting: This is similiar to prediction, but slightly different. When you are looking for or scouting out a particular action/stimuli and have prepared yourself to act on reaction, that significantly improves your reaction times for that particular action.

  • Agility: The ability to move one's body in an efficient manner and change positions. Characters like Gambit, Spider-man and Nightwing are renowned for being able to move/evade in places where other characters would be completely unable to do so. Agility greatly aids in stopping speed, recovery speed and striking speed.

What does it mean?

  • If a character has a high maximum speed, but can accelerate to that speed in short order, that is combat applicable. It is also applicable if they can fly faster than the other party can react/dodge.

  • Stop using the term "Combat Speed"

  • Characters must be able to perceive something for reflexes to kick in. Perception may be substituted for dumb luck or prediction.

  • Striking speed can be augmented by movement speeds. IE, Superman can punch you while flying at you, his hand might only be moving 30 m/s relative to him, but 3c relative to you. However, the two must remain separate.

  • Recovery speed needs the most explanation. Many characters are capable of dodging a single very fast attack, but are left in a compromised position to do so. Against a character who can recover from their attack faster, they are left unable to dodge or defend adequately. Characters like Monkey D. Luffy and Chun Li are capable of repeatable low recovery attacks. While something like Yusuke's spirit gun or Ryu's Shoryuken has a fairly high recovery.

  • Stopping speed and the like can be shortened to maneuverability, and it explains how people who are very fast can run into things or be surprised. This is because while they may very well be fast enough to normally move out of the way of something, the fact that they were moving towards it and had very little physical space to evade means they had no option to move out of the way or evade.

How to interpret speed feats

  • The most basic and simple feats to determine are ones where time and distance are given outright(Character traveled Y distance in X time). This is almost indisputable. Speed = Distance/Time
  • Next we have were time is given, but distance must be extrapolated. This can be done with known things, like size of an area, or two points.
  • Then we have scenarios where distance is known, but time is uncertain. When time is uncertain, one may attempt to use external factors to quantify the time. Like a lower bound for the travel speed of a bullet from the variety of gun, or other characters carrying on conversation.
  • Both having to be extrapolated isn't really a problem as long as work is shown.
  • When something is dodged or evaded, it does not make the thing dodging or evading quicker than said thing. To be as fast or faster than the projectile, a character would have to move equal or greater distance than the projectile in the same period of time.
  • Special note: Energy projectiles and "lightning". Do not assume all energy projectiles(things that look like lasers) or lightning(or things that look like it) to travel the speed of light or ground to cloud lightning. If something looks like it is a laser, but it isn't specified do not assume, try and figure out on your own how fast it was going.

Closing bits

  • Blitzing does not automatically make one character faster than the other. Offense is frequently faster than defense, especially when paired with reactions being required to evade. It is perfectly possible for a character to be roughly the same speed as the person they are blitzing. However, this doesn't mean that blitzing isn't usable to demonstrate superior speed, just that it isn't automatic.

  • Degree of difference A character does not need to be much faster than another to be untouchable. A real world example is TJ Dillashaw vs. Renan Barao. Dillashaw isn't really that much faster than Barao, it was mostly his superior footwork. But that footwork accounts for no more than a 10% decrease in response time. The required difference(percentage wise) becomes significantly smaller as speed increases. For instance, if a character(A) is 2xlightspeed with 100 nanosecond reaction times, and their opponent(B) is 1% faster than they are, they can move a full 5 meters before the other character reacts off the same stimuli. And this difference only increases as speed goes up.

#35 Posted by RealityWarper (10284 posts) - - Show Bio

Pffffffffff stop with the speedblitz...


The main powerhouses of each Comic Book companies have similar attack rate & recovery speed.

Thor, Superman, Hulk...

#36 Posted by WELLDONE (253 posts) - - Show Bio

@evilvegeta74: this was debunked three issues later when they needed supermans reactions/reflexes, so yeah get that crap outta here

#37 Posted by SodamYat (7908 posts) - - Show Bio

No they dont. its not even close.

Superman would hit thor or hulk hundreds of times before they even processed that the fight has started.

#38 Posted by RealityWarper (10284 posts) - - Show Bio

And Manga characters lolstomp MOST comic book characters when it comes to Attack & recovery speeds :

Goku >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Superman

#39 Posted by Cgoodness (11044 posts) - - Show Bio

I disagree with ______s post and will say so without clicking reply or using @*username*

#40 Posted by Blade_R (5029 posts) - - Show Bio

If its in character for Charater A to speed blitz then its fine, but if character A rarely ever speed blitzes, idk why its ever thrown out unless the character is stated to be out of character in the rules.

#41 Posted by Helicoprion (1330 posts) - - Show Bio

speed is unfair but legit

#42 Edited by micah (7253 posts) - - Show Bio

@blade_r said:

If its in character for Charater A to speed blitz then its fine, but if character A rarely ever speed blitzes, idk why its ever thrown out unless the character is stated to be out of character in the rules.

Exactly. And for the most part the characters that the speedblitz argument is trying to be applied to rarely speedblitz. Certain people think certain characters are unstoppable, light-speed, tasmanian devils all the time in combat. Which is hilarious XD

#43 Posted by chuckwolf (413 posts) - - Show Bio

Speedblitzing really depends on a couple of factors, the main being is the character blitzing strong enough to actually hurt the person being blitzed.

For example Quicksilver may be able to throw hundreds of punches at the Hulk, but Doctor Banner wouldn't feel a single one.

But Spider-man, who actually is able to hurt the Hulk could do the same and actually cause damage.

#44 Posted by ariesxmasters (4874 posts) - - Show Bio

The whole speed excuse period falls apart:

1) That is not every characters fighting style to speed blitz first thing.

2) Even if a character does get blitz doesn't mean automatic win specially if the character being blitz has the durability to withstand it, or can even hit the character while being blitzed.

3) Some people try to pass travel speed as reaction/reflex speed.

4) Even if one character has a much higher speed than another doesn't mean the character with the higher speed will dodge everything and react perfectly like their some kind of mind reader.

5) The whole speed argument pretty much turns the whole "Battle forum" into a "Race forum" since the faster character always wins, and no other powers or abilities are taken into account when debating it is all about who is faster.

Then again speed is the only excuse bias people can find to try and make Hulk vs Superman, Thor vs Superman, Wonder Woman vs Ms. Marvel, Wonder Woman vs Rogue look like a stomps in DC's favor all the while knowing Superman and Wonder Woman don't fight any where near close to the way they're saying they would if the fight were to actually happen.

That is probably the only thing I like about how Screwattack calculates.

#45 Posted by Stahlflamme (808 posts) - - Show Bio

I do find it kinda silly that in a discussion over comic book characters fighting the most important thing is the speed, which is almost never the deciding factor in comics until a pure speedster is involved. As a matter of fact speed is quite possibly the most inconsistent thing in comics and is ignored more often than not, if one character has superspeed and the other has not.

#46 Posted by TomoFukuoka (1451 posts) - - Show Bio

some characters have good speed feats

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/12/120267/3175804-5350256113-14892.jpg

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/8/84878/3664798-2833000-gladiator_nova_corps.jpg

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/2/20382/2163665-1678840-sentry_vs_thor__super1069843_.jpg

#47 Posted by PrinceAragorn1 (26625 posts) - - Show Bio

@jedixman said:

@JonSmith said:

Strength means nothing if you're not fast enough to hit your opponent. You can be as strong as you like, and as mad as you like, and it won't mean a thing if you can't make contact. That's the speedblitz excuse: This character, in this state, is so fast that the opponent can't even hit them.

This.

I realize a lot of users are irritated by "speedblitzes," but that's just how it is.

#48 Posted by TomoFukuoka (1451 posts) - - Show Bio

I wonder why Thor still has trouble fighting Hulk, maybe the speed gap isn't so big and Hulk is fast enough to tag Thor

#49 Posted by lettsplay10 (8918 posts) - - Show Bio

How are you gonna hit something who is faster then you

Online
#50 Posted by MasterKungFu (15109 posts) - - Show Bio

SPEED-BLITZ IS SUCH AN OVERRATED ARGUMENT!!!

THE BEST ARGUMENT BY FAR IS THE ONE WHERE BOTH COMBATANTS JUST STAND THERE AND TAKE TURNS HITTING ONE ANOTHER WITH EVERY OPTION THEY HAVE AND IF YOU HAVE NONE LEFT YOU MUST STAY THERE UNTIL YOUR OPPONENT FINISHES!!!