The Real Reason Martian Manhunter was removed from Justice League

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Jnr6Lil

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#51  Edited By Jnr6Lil

Cyborg is a Titans hero.

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xybernauts

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#52  Edited By xybernauts

@Jorgevy said:

@xybernauts: obviously he is not really black and if someone is looking for a character in comics to "look up to" that is black, he can only do so to a degree, because even though he is black because he lived as a black guy, he doesn't really have the heritage and all that other stuff. it could also be seen as a cheap way of having a black character in a comic, him not really being black. I get that, but still, it's a good character to include in the "black super heroes list"

That's part of the reason, but not it completely the reason. Comic book characters might be good role models for younger fans, but for older fans and fans in general it's really about having a character you can identity with. You can identify with characters who don't have the same skin color as you, but when all the a-listers are Caucasian and the darker skinned characters fall short of the a-list category, It kinda sends the wrong message. You notice it consciously and subconsciously and it does have an adverse effect. You don't want your kid and kids in general (whether majority or minority) to grow up with that message in their head.

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Jorgevy

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#53  Edited By Jorgevy

@xybernauts: yeah I get that, but it also depends on the culture. Though comics do need more A list characters that are not white (doesn't necessarily have to mean minority, since depending on the place or even the time, it may not be a minority). Comics just need more variety, period. Independent of minorities or bandwagons or fads, a character should just be made into a unique person with it's own traits. It's even worse to just make a new gay character when gay marriage is being discussed or to make a native american character when that matter is being publicly discussed because it kinda gives the image that before that nobody gave two cents about it.

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jphulk26

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#54  Edited By jphulk26

@Imagine_Man15: @Imagine_Man15 said:

I disagree. Martian Manhunter was a primary character in the more recent Justice League cartoon, and if DC wanted to attract new readers with the New 52, they would target the newer generation which is more likely to be familiar with MM as a member of the League.

What he said. By the way i´m black and I would prefer Manhunter, just a more interesting character, and I would have liked to see Johns take on him. As for Cyborg not a great character really, gets in the way of the dynamic, especially Batman. If they want another black character they should have made a new one whose more interesting and fits in better. That would show a commitment to racial diversity.

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DaAwesome2

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#55  Edited By DaAwesome2

What you talkin' about with no racial diversity??

Oh, so we just gonna forget about Black Fulcan, El Dorado, Apache Chief and Samarai, huh?

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xybernauts

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#56  Edited By xybernauts

@DaAwesome2: Technically we are talking about The New 52's Justice League comic in relation to the Superfriends show. Many people were complaining why they placed Cyborg on the DCnU JL and removed Martian Manhunter. My explanation was that the new roster was based in part on the Superfriends roster. Read the opening post for greater detail. I don't want to rehash the entire explanation again. Basically Cyborg was in the Superfriends and MM wasn't. Also Cyborg is the only ethnic DC comics character in the show. Black Vulcan, El Dorado, Apache Chief and Samarai were not DC comics characters, they were Hanna Barbara characters specifically made for the show. Technically Dc comics doesn't own them, that's why you never really see them used in the comics; although I'm sure someone will point out to you that DC Comics parent company Time Warner owns Hanna Barbara.

@jphulk26 said:

@Imagine_Man15: @Imagine_Man15 said:

I disagree. Martian Manhunter was a primary character in the more recent Justice League cartoon, and if DC wanted to attract new readers with the New 52, they would target the newer generation which is more likely to be familiar with MM as a member of the League.

What he said. By the way i´m black and I would prefer Manhunter, just a more interesting character, and I would have liked to see Johns take on him. As for Cyborg not a great character really, gets in the way of the dynamic, especially Batman. If they want another black character they should have made a new one whose more interesting and fits in better. That would show a commitment to racial diversity.

Cyborg isn't a great character because DC doesn't really want to commit to developing the character. I think it's clear that he has the potential. Truthfully I believe that even if DC did make a new minority character from scratch for the Justice League they would still relegate this new character to obscurity simply because of his ethnicity. The only reason they'd develop MM is because he isn't really a black character to begin with. DC always makes this haphazard attempt of being more inclusive. To me they do this regularly to deflect any accusations of racism. These characters are developed poorly on purpose. Because these characters are done poorly they are less popular. Later DC use the characters lack of popularity as an excuse to phase out the characters. I mean look at what happened to the Milestone line of comics. Are there any active Milestone characters left in the DCnU?

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colonyofcells

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#57  Edited By colonyofcells

Maybe dc likes black more than green ?

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Decoy Elite

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#58  Edited By Decoy Elite

The real reason is because DC is stupid. 

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CaptainAtom

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#59  Edited By CaptainAtom

I think Cyborg's abilities bring more variety to the team. Superman and Martian Manhunter's powers are too much a like besides intangibility and mind reading. And mind reading isn't necessary when Wonder Woman can use her lasso to get answers.

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Decoy Elite

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#60  Edited By Decoy Elite
@CaptainAtom said:

I think Cyborg's abilities bring more variety to the team. Superman and Martian Manhunter's powers are too much a like besides intangibility and mind reading. And mind reading isn't necessary when Wonder Woman can use her lasso to get answers.

Forgot Shapeshifting. 
Also Martian vision(WHICH IS TOTALLY NOT HEAT VISION. >.>)
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#61  Edited By GothamRed

I think some of the animosity for cyborg has nothing to do with martian manhunter or even the justice league. The reason some fans were upset by him inclusion was because if he were a founding member of the justice league, the first super team in the New 52 universe as I take it, then it means he couldn't be a member of the titans anymore or at least it would make less sense for him to be in this new context. That was one of the first pseudo slaps to the face that fans of the new teen titans got in the new 52 and as more and more came, well the resentment just increased. They feel the same way about cyborg being a founding JL member that MM fans feel about him not being one. So the hatred of him being on the team isn't just one sided by justice league fans being mad that he's replacing j'onn it's also from TT fans as well. And there are TT fans that are fine and even happy with him being on the team, but at the same time there's probably still a part of them that wishes he were still a titan first and a leaguer second.

One of the reasons I heard for Cyborg's inclusion was that they wanted a techy member of the league because they never really had one before (for reference it's one of the special features on the JL: Doom Blu Ray either the commentary of the cyborg feaurette I forget which). I'd like to point the the inherent fault of that statement since the JL has had mant tech based heroes who were also gear-heads in their run. So it just seems like cyborg was included because they wanted and Iron Man on the Justice League who didn't come from the same series as any of the other characters but was still somewhat notable (ruling out people like Steel or Rocket Red). That's just my opinion.

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DaAwesome2

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#62  Edited By DaAwesome2

@xybernauts:

You do know I was jokin', right?

LOL.

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jphulk26

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#63  Edited By jphulk26

@xybernauts said:

@DaAwesome2:

Cyborg isn't a great character because DC doesn't really want to commit to developing the character. I think it's clear that he has the potential. Truthfully I believe that even if DC did make a new minority character from scratch for the Justice League they would still relegate this new character to obscurity simply because of his ethnicity. The only reason they'd develop MM is because he isn't really a black character to begin with. DC always makes this haphazard attempt of being more inclusive. To me they do this regularly to deflect any accusations of racism. These characters are developed poorly on purpose. Because these characters are done poorly they are less popular. Later DC use the characters lack of popularity as an excuse to phase out the characters. I mean look at what happened to the Milestone line of comics. Are there any active Milestone characters left in the DCnU?

My friend I can´t fault you there. But Cyborg for me is a strange character, he goes in line with black superheroes like Spawn, who some how have to be difigured if they are black. They can´t just be a black character, somehow there face or features have to be completely obscured to be accepted. I know there are other lol, but I can´t think of them right now. I really think you´re righ black characters are either sidekick or name taker characters like john stewart black green lantern or otherwise undeveloped. To be fair to Johns there aren´t many traditional black characters to go to in DC who don´t have some innitial problems, like being stereotypical from the get go or they´re just another version of an established white hero. Same with gay characters, just look a Batwoman, the best gay character DC has, but she had to be part of the Bat family rather than stand on her own. Thats why DC I think just have to start from scratch and develop some new black, ethnic, gay and female superheroes. Put their comics at the back of popular comics, just like they´ve done with Shazaam. That way a new generation can become familiar with them. Just try and make them have classical origins and good villanis like their classic characters Batman, Superman etc. Thats how I´d do it.

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Darth Paul

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#64  Edited By Darth Paul

If they really wanted to have diversity on their teams like in the cartoons, such as Super-Friends, JL/JLU, YJ, whatever, in the comics too, then they'd just go ahead and do like they do on those shows and have huge teams with just about all the major characters that they can and have rotating sub-groups/teams of heroes for different missions. It would be a lot more interesting and you would be able to get a lot more character development with the minority characters while also getting in that much needed diversity instead of just having to always focus on the big 7-8.

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xybernauts

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#65  Edited By xybernauts

@DaAwesome2: I honestly didn't realize you were joking. You really have to work on your delivery, lol.

@GothamRed said:

I think some of the animosity for cyborg has nothing to do with martian manhunter or even the justice league. The reason some fans were upset by him inclusion was because if he were a founding member of the justice league, the first super team in the New 52 universe as I take it, then it means he couldn't be a member of the titans anymore or at least it would make less sense for him to be in this new context. That was one of the first pseudo slaps to the face that fans of the new teen titans got in the new 52 and as more and more came, well the resentment just increased. They feel the same way about cyborg being a founding JL member that MM fans feel about him not being one. So the hatred of him being on the team isn't just one sided by justice league fans being mad that he's replacing j'onn it's also from TT fans as well. And there are TT fans that are fine and even happy with him being on the team, but at the same time there's probably still a part of them that wishes he were still a titan first and a leaguer second.

One of the reasons I heard for Cyborg's inclusion was that they wanted a techy member of the league because they never really had one before (for reference it's one of the special features on the JL: Doom Blu Ray either the commentary of the cyborg feaurette I forget which). I'd like to point the the inherent fault of that statement since the JL has had mant tech based heroes who were also gear-heads in their run. So it just seems like cyborg was included because they wanted and Iron Man on the Justice League who didn't come from the same series as any of the other characters but was still somewhat notable (ruling out people like Steel or Rocket Red). That's just my opinion.

Truthfully, when I heard they were making Cyborg a founding Justice League member I was really upset, too. It didn't make sense to me for the reasons you just pointed out, but I noticed DC making this push to include him through the Justice League Doom movie and the New 52 Justice League comic. Like you said, Cyborg is already an established Teen Titan character so it creates a conflict to make him an Justice Leaguer. It was in the back of my head for a few months and then one day I remembered that Cyborg was in the Superfriends. Once I realized this the selection made perfect sense to me. In fact, the selection made by Dwayne McDuffie was better then any other minority character out there in my opinion. That's why I wrote this blog, to inform other people who may have not made the connection between Cyborg and the Superfriends. I read through a few threads and realized no one ever pointed this out. I think that the logic that DC was implementing revolved around the idea that most people associate the founding members of the JL with the Superfriends cartoon and not with the actual comics, so it makes sense to me to cement that connection with a minority character from DC comics who was in the Superfriends cartoon.

@jphulk26 said:

My friend I can´t fault you there. But Cyborg for me is a strange character, he goes in line with black superheroes like Spawn, who some how have to be difigured if they are black. They can´t just be a black character, somehow there face or features have to be completely obscured to be accepted. I know there are other lol, but I can´t think of them right now. I really think you´re righ black characters are either sidekick or name taker characters like john stewart black green lantern or otherwise undeveloped. To be fair to Johns there aren´t many traditional black characters to go to in DC who don´t have some innitial problems, like being stereotypical from the get go or they´re just another version of an established white hero. Same with gay characters, just look a Batwoman, the best gay character DC has, but she had to be part of the Bat family rather than stand on her own. Thats why DC I think just have to start from scratch and develop some new black, ethnic, gay and female superheroes. Put their comics at the back of popular comics, just like they´ve done with Shazaam. That way a new generation can become familiar with them. Just try and make them have classical origins and good villanis like their classic characters Batman, Superman etc. Thats how I´d do it.

Truthfully, I really like the new Cyborg, but my only real problem with him is this idea that he has to sacrifice body parts to upgrade himself, like he is going to do in the current JL arc.I was expecting his tech to be more advanced then that like that of The Engineer in Stormwatch or Blue Beetle. I also dislike his lack of development.

As for gay characters, in Stormwatch comic they have Apollo and Midnighter who are a gay couple. Apollo is like gay Superman and Midnighter is like gay Batman. Outside of that I agree with alot of what you said. I also like the terminology you use... "name-taker/sidekicks". I want them to develop that minority characters they have with unique identities. For example I was really disappointed with the Team 7 comic that came out. I was expecting to see Deathblow. I was so disappointed that I'm discouraged and don't want to read another issue. And in the Stormwatch comic I expected to see Battalion as leader or atleast as a character in the book. They just phase out great characters.

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JamDamage

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#66  Edited By JamDamage

I think they did, because they wanted to sell it the incorporation of Wildstorm and Vertigo. So they made JL Dark, and kept Stormwatch. They needed a character that would promote Stormwatch, and the best character for that team is MM. I bought the book. I like the book, and thinks its one best books DC puts out. The book didn't showcase much of MM. Then they took him away from us who were buying the book. I thought having him on the team was brilliant. DC is not incorporating the new additions to the DC mainstream universe well at all.

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DaAwesome2

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#67  Edited By DaAwesome2

@xybernauts:

HAHA...you seriously think anyone (myself included) looked at the Superfriends and was happy with their minority representation? Black Vulcan had to be the lamest Black hero EVER. Even classic Luke Cage with the tiara and bucanneer boots wasn't that bad. LOL.

As a Black man, I was ashamed of Black Vulcan. LOL.

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xybernauts

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#68  Edited By xybernauts

@DaAwesome2: See, now I can't tell when you're joking and when your serious, lol.

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DaAwesome2

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#69  Edited By DaAwesome2

@xybernauts:

Well, I do think Power Man was better than Black Vulcan. Both sucked. But at least Cage wasn't rockin' a long sleeve unitard. LOL

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Yung ANcient One

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#70  Edited By Yung ANcient One
They needed someone cool on JLA, so MM got the boot.  I can't see any other member on this JlA (+)
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minigunman123

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#71  Edited By minigunman123

Cyborg is pretty awesome, but personally, I think he might have fit in better with the Teen Titans as he originally did, who might have an easier time treating him like he needs to be treated; a friend, teenager and young man, rather than a superhero supercomputer, which is what I see him being treated as a lot of the time by the Justice League.

Maybe, an alternate universe could have him be an older man in the current timeline, and have him be part of, say, Earth 2's team seven, being their information officer and technician. That'd be pretty cool, actually...

Hmm...

Deathstroke + Cyborg as a partnership. Who thinks that could be interesting (if it was feasible and written decently)?

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The__Jester

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I hope to god they bring back Manhunter. They gave up a shapeshifting,telekenetic,mind reading, intangible alien for a robot?

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Black_Arrow

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The real reason is Geoff Johns, he loves Hal and he wanted to put him in the team, if you replace him with john stewart there would be no problem

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deactivated-5edd330f57b65

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I liked cyborg in titans. They just could've made GL John Stewart for radial diversity. But then again he would probably eventually be replaced by Hal or someone so..

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#75  Edited By noj

You guys are being silly. Martian Manhunter fans should almost consider it a compliment that he was left out of the Justice League. The REAL reason is that they felt he was popular enough a character to head up and bring potential readers to 2 different teams, first with Stormwatch then with the JLA. Stormwatch had been around for a while and had its fans but in order to make it a more attractive sell to new readers who hadnt ever heard of the team before they added Martian Manhunter.

With the Justice League of America in the promo artwork Martian Manhunter is almost always front and center and the backup is all about him. I have a feeling that Johns had the idea for Trinity War around the start of the New 52 which could be another reason. If the Justice League International had worked out we more than likely wouldve seen Martian Manhunter join that group after he defeced from Stormwatch.

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MarlboroMan

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I am actually enjoying him a lot more in JLA. JL has enough major characters in it.

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dondave

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#77  Edited By dondave

The real reason is Geoff Johns, he loves Hal and he wanted to put him in the team, if you replace him with john stewart there would be no problem

Hal's always been part of the Justice League

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Black_Arrow

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@dondave said:

@black_arrow said:

The real reason is Geoff Johns, he loves Hal and he wanted to put him in the team, if you replace him with john stewart there would be no problem

Hal's always been part of the Justice League

I know but i prefer martian manhunter over Hal. If they wanted a black token the could have put jonh which is more famous with the justice league than cyborg. Also the justice league replaces hal with someone else but they dont do that with the martian

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Avenging-X-Bolt

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@dondave said:

@black_arrow said:

The real reason is Geoff Johns, he loves Hal and he wanted to put him in the team, if you replace him with john stewart there would be no problem

Hal's always been part of the Justice League

I know but i prefer martian manhunter over Hal. If they wanted a black token the could have put jonh which is more famous with the justice league than cyborg. Also the justice league replaces hal with someone else but they dont do that with the martian

but being black wasn't the only reason Cyborg was added. He offers unique themes etc

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Nerd Of A Hero

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#80  Edited By Nerd Of A Hero

hmm