The perfect example of everything wrong with the New 52

The recent Villains' Month issue for Darkseid entitled "Apotheosis" is the perfect example of an all-encompassing problem endemic to the New 52. To illustrate my point, first examine Batman's description in Batman #702 of Darksied and the weapon he used to kill Orion:

"...It's a magic bullet, literally. An all-purpose god-killing projectile that can be loaded and fired over and over again from any gun ever invented. Essence of Bullet... It was the blueprint, the template for every bullet there has ever been. It was the original of the bullet that killed JFK, Martin Luther King, John Lennon. Gandhi... Archduke Ferdinand... Thomas and Martha Wayne."

"The New gods are incredibly powerful living ideas from a kind of Platonic, archetypal world."

Now compare that to the retcon introduced by "Apotheosis."

Darkseid "was a mud grubber named Uxas" who killed a race of super-powered being called "gods" whose powers are not inherent but derived from the faith of their followers.

In the previous interpretation, Darkseid was the very Idea of evil, the necessary enemy of all that is good in existence. He, just as much as Joe Chill, was responsible for the death of Thomas and Martha Wayne. But in the New 52, his entire invasion of the Multiverse is just so he can give his daughter a time out.

The problem here and elsewhere through out the New 52 is that complex, layered, intriguing ideas have all been uprooted and simplified to become more accessible for the lowest common denominator to consume. There's little room for the likes of Morrison, Moore, Gaiman, and all the others who elevated the medium to the level of high art. Instead, we're left with spandex-spangled soap operas.

Oh, look. This thread again.

You had me at "New 52 Lobo"

Ok no spandex or underwear things. Worst joker had his face cut off and his face was off. Red robin had change . Origin changes . Worst design

New 52 got me into comics, the fans are about to drive me out with all the hate. Never mind, I'll just avoid Gen Discussions, I literally can't find any threads that interest me anymore. Rather its these "give a point" threads that are pointless or the same hating on the new 52, theres no discussion at all, just comments.

@rideaspacecowboy: this is your opinion, it's a valid opinion but an opinion nonetheless . Morrison had his shot at Darkseid. I didn't care for it, it was boring to me... "Complex, layered". Ok I guess Greg Pak is a hack in your view? And if you recall Morrison was at the very forefront of the New52 with Action Comics. To say that there's little room for him and Gaiman? It's hyperbole. Morrison is still doing Multiversity. Gaiman is still doing Sandman. Moore was done with DC a long time before any 52. And Morrisons Batman run was amazing but it was as much 'spandex spangled soap operish' as it could get.

Ugh.

@ccraft: Not saying New 52 isn't a good starting point, but you're really missing out if you didn't read Pre-52.

@rideaspacecowboy: I agree with everything you said....the new origins in the New 52 are like the retarded cousins of the PreFlashpoint characters

New 52 is what got me into DC comics. I've enjoyed it these last 2 years. I've also read some pre 52 DC in trades and have enjoyed that too. I can see how some people don't like some of the changes. But I guess since I came on during the start of New 52 they really don't bother me.

I'd been genuinely enjoying the New 52, especially with recent arcs such as Death of a King, Throne of Atlantis, Trinity War, and Zero Year, but lately I've been purchasing back issues of pre-New 52 titles through Comixology, and that comparison in quality is amazingly stark.

@blackdog2009 Morrison's run on Action Comics, from a purely narrative standpoint, is one of the greatest Superman stories ever told. And I'd like to claim such makes it an exception to the rule regarding the New 52, but even there DC had the audacity to place him with an artist whose talents did not transfer to drawing Superman and later issues were severely marred by the atrocious design choices with permeate the New 52, particularly Superman's armor costume, the single worst thing to happen to the sequential art medium since Wertham published Seduction of the Innocent.

This. I "can't wait" to see how they play out this whole "the Lobo you've been seeing is a fake lobo" BS.

@ximpossibrux: don't worry, I've got a ton of pre new 52 books. New 52 still is awesome.

@battle_forum_junkie: lol good one

I started Pre 52 books like a Year before ended lol sucks.

DC didn't lose everything that had made it the great publisher it was the moment in Flashpoint when Barry Allan created the New 52 (although it was a monumental shift in quality nonetheless). There was a period of decline prior to that as well. If you want a list of some of the best books published in that time to go back and read, start with:

General

• Identity Crisis
• Infinite Crisis
• Final Crisis
• Final Crisis:Legion of Three Worlds

Superman

• Superman: Earth One
• Superman: Birthright
• Superman: Secret Origin
• For Tomorrow
• Final Crisis: Superman Beyond
• Superman and the Legion of Superheroes
• Braniac
• Whatever Happened to the Man of Tomorrow

Batman

• Hush
• Batman and Son
• The Black Glove
• Batman: R.I.P.
• Batman and Robin Reborn
• Batman vs. Robin
• Batman and Robin Must Die!
• The Return of Bruce Wayne
• Batman, Inc.
• The Black Mirror

Green Lantern

• Green Lantern: Secret Origin
• Green Lantern: Rebirth
• Sinestro Corp. War
• Blackest Night

Flash

• Flash: Rebirth

That sucks, than again this is the New 52 so a large majority of it that isn't Batman and Green Lantern suck. In fact given how horrid a job DC handles the DC universe and how WB loves to milk Batman for all his worth why not destroy the DC universe and just make it about the Batman mythos since DC is unable to produce creative, quality stories. After all thats their only highest selling hero and spinoffs at this point.

I fricking love it when people claim that before the New 52, the overall quality of everything was better. It's been 2 years, get the hell over it already.

@rulerofthisuniverse: .... Nah if anything this New 52 is like the equivalent of Marvel's Heroes Reborn ten times as bad, relies more on shock tactics, and horrid "reimaginings" of new origins. But typical given how editorial is made up of short sighted Indecisive editors who screw over their artist and their writers losing them over to the competition. But I'm sure they had that planned out.

@ccraft: hey man I'm right here with you. I just got into comics at the start of the new 52 and marvel NOW and I love them. I know people who have been around dont like it, well some, but people like you and me are enjoying it so its not all bad.

I, like you, wish I could avoid these threads lol

New 52 Lobo is pretty bad.

@rideaspacecowboy: I completely agree.

And to the people who have gotten into comics because of the new 52,good for you. That's great!

But it still is a poor reflection and imitation of the old universe. A shadow. It fails miserably to fill the boots.

And not only that,but many things in it are just AWFUL!

Also this.

and this.

I mean,I like some of the things of the new 52 (many things),but compared to the old universe. It's absolutely nothing.

The emotional attachment to these characters and such is widely gone.

I feel what your saying, most of the complaints coming out from New52 generally have to do with, "its not the character IIM USED TO" and sometimes its just because they are pulling inspiration from an earlier version of a character, but regardless there is a lot of hate floating around that, DC RUINED their universe. This isn't a new sentiment by a long shot, after Crisis on Infinite Earths in 85' they were clamoring about the same thing, that they had ruined their favorite characters. its an unfortunate part of being in a Nerd Community, we're an uppity bunch of rabble rousers, and sometimes you are against the change, sometimes you aren't.

A good example of this in plainer terms would harken to another of my passions, D&D.... Im sure you've heard huge anti 4th edition complaints by now, but even before 4th there was a big schism in the game.... you get a bunch of people together who like D&D and most of them would be playing 3.5 but there would most likely be some guy who refused to play, because he only played 3.0.... or you might get someone who only played AD&D 2nd...or first,.... or I ran into a few people who thought we weren't "real" fans because we played something other than OD&D. ONCE I found a guy who convinced me to pull out my old xeroxed copies of the game, that were freely distributed in suburbs near where Gary Gygax was living BEFORE the game was a published title we unfortunately found only one other guy willing to play such an old version of the game (i think it was 30 years old at that point) and the game was scrapped. there will always be gripers, always people who see the past as a rosier shade of awesome, or that it could do no wrong.

ohh I am also fairly new to comic reading, though I have been following comics, and listening to people telling the stories for a long time, I have been going back and reading pre52 titles..... there are just as many BAD stories in pre52 as there are in New52. people just tend to forget these short lived runs, or titles even existed, so if you go back and read pre52, cherry pick the best storylines or else you might end up reading All Star Batman and Robin, or Green Lantern, just before Geoff Johns took over or something just as bad, but more forgotten. keep reading man, don't let the nay-sayers get you down.

@battle_forum_junkie: HAHAHAH exactly!

It's been two years, we've been hearing this exact same "they got rid of so much continuity!! waahh!!'' complaint for two years, do I like it? No, not really, but the New 52 has produced some quality stories, so either get over it, or get out.

Devil's Advocate - doesn't he have as much right to voice his opinion against it as you do to say you've enjoyed stories in spite of unfavorable changes? (Especially since he picked out examples that supported his side, rather than just bitching).

Also, you don't have to click in or participate in a thread you don't care for. (Sorry if I'm coming off rude, but "get over it or get out" is just like "you're either with us or against us" (or any of the "if you don't like something about the country, move to another one!" phrases) to me, and that's far too black & white an ultimatum when there are many shades of grey).

He can voice his opinion all he wants, it's just two years too late, countless threads have been made with the same complaint, effectively making this a dupe thread.

@the_stegman: Eh, to each his own (issue). If it was an actual problem people would ignore it & it'd get moderated. He was at least incorporating a recent happening (ie: compared to an issue only with something that happened in the 3rd week of the new52, or anything like that). (And that last sentence of yours did make it seem like you felt he shouldn't be voicing his opinion because of the subject).

I know that at a certain age the brain of some people stops working. I am a long time DC fan, I was reading a lot of DC's best stuff (and some of the worst) way before a reboot was even in the making. I must say: I love 52. I like it even more. First of all, if you notice, they didn't really get rid of the stuff that worked. Second, DCU before was a real mess, and the last events were sooooo boring. I mean, I still haven't read Darkseid's issue, but Darkseid pre-reboot was putting me to sleep. Final Crisis was just confusing and hype that resulted into nothing.

This is my opinion, but it's just as valid as yours. If you don't like the new 52 stop reading it, we won't lose any sleep. But you can't make threads that say what is "objectively" wrong with it. If there was something "objective" about an art form handled by a huge money-making company, there would be no discussions at all. This is not a discussion thread, this is a whining and slightly offensive thread, to all of those who don't mind what the DCU is now.

You sound really immature with that kind of lack of respect. Your opinion is not a fact. If you want to discuss it, present it as a personal opinion, not like the truth you found soul seraching about a fictional universe.

New 52 needs something like the old JLA WW3 to really get things going. Bring the scale up DC, bring in more crazy bulls*** that I love about comics.

Batman '66 is a good start, but it's more fun than crazy. Also not cannon.

I've read many pre-52 comics as well as new-52 and i must say it's understandable if you don't like it but I think the change had to be done, okay maybe it was too early but I appreciate the new-52 and you should too, because it's innovative but some people don't like change. However I think in the future people "get over it" and will enjoy it just as much as before

wah wah wah

You guys complain like there's been no good books since the relaunch

Not to spoil your milk here, but what exactly is innovative about it? Sure things changed, but they didn't change in new interesting ways, they just changed. Pointlessly, without any real rhyme or reason. The Question is magic based now for no reason, Creeper is an evil demon out of nowhere, and a lot of fan favorite characters just don't exist now because DC editorial didn't care about them. So what have we actually gained to make up for this? Nothing, not even the tighter continuity that a reboot promises. I'm not saying you have to hate the New 52 or that it's completely terrible, just keep in mind that most of the complains aren't that things changed, but that things changed either pointlessly or for the worse by and large.

What? It isn't!?

Ah, man... :(

Needs to have it's own universe. Superman '66 and Flash '66 would be ballin'.

And while we're at it Green Lantern, Superman, and Aquaman.

@battle_forum_junkie: Yes, but I already said Superman. :P

@decoyelite: Oops. Missed that.

The bad books totally outnumber the good books. I mean let's not pretend that DC made a good choice here.

...and let's not pretend that all the books before the reboot were amazing either

Nothing is 10 times as bad as Heroes Reborn.

Gonna start a new drinking game, every time someone mentions Lobo or Creeper.

"New Lobo sucks" *SHOT*

@jake_fury: and I say it is ten times as bad, case in point The Kent's being killed by a fifth dimensional demon, Question and Creeper turning into mystical beings, also New Lobo.

Yes, the "give a point" games are pointless. so are boardgames and playing cards. It is just a game. Fun for some. You don't have to play and I understand if it's not you bag but pointing out "haters" is ironic in a post were you are "hating on" what you don't like.

New comic fans all have the same argument you just posted. That is great that you started then but one day the new 52 will be old and the stories and characters you love will be torn down and changed and you might just then understand what older fans are saying now. I have been reading comics since the 1980's. I have seen this happen over and over again. What is different and disturbing this time is the complete change in the character.

Take Batman for example. Let's say he is your favorite character. Then ten years later he gets rebooted and his costume is changed, his personality is changed, people he was closest too were wiped from existence, his physical appearance is changed and so on. Eventually the character you loved is stripped away until there is nothing left you like. It is insidious. You will be sick when your purple costumed, blonde haired, sixteen year old, gun toting, wise cracking, over weight, cartoon watching Batman goes home to his trailer that he lived in with his divorced mother after a long night of fighting crime with his new sidekick... a robotic dog named sparky.

Poo 52.

@sinestro_gl:

Oh trust me, I won't.

So 3 characters ruined it for you?

This, with a small edit, but still this. I'm tired of defending the New 52.

Oh more than that, but overall I find the New 52 overly simplified and with little substance thats ten times worse than 90's Image comics and Heroes Reborn.