The case against Geoff Johns

So I've read allot of stuff about Geoff Johns hating Batman. I know people like Johns, I did. Hell, I own his run on JSA.

But let's be real. Johns' main thing is that he tries to write a character as "cool". He's said, as much. He goes out of his

way to write even the lamest character as capable, good at whatever he is doing, and a badass. Everyone but Batman.

Johns' problem is, nobody buys it.

Action comics #850, his pet legion character insults batman every panel, while Superman ignores it.

Of course this is not the worst part. Time Trapper (another

pet Johns' character) states Batman isn't remembered in

the future.

What how does that work!

Batman is all about legacy. I mean Batman is a mission

character, with a specific purpose. Only Wonder Woman

Has that same characteristic. ( and Bruce is arguably

better at it because look at all the people he's inspired to

follow him, while Diana has one.)

Of course, Johns isn't forgetting that there was a Batman from this era right?

At this point the whiny Johns fanboy is arguing, "Batgod..."Huh? Look whiny faboy, the best writers don't write batman

as invincible. They have him fail, but in a believable way.

one of the most memorable moments in comic history is

Bruce bleeding out after letting himself get stabbed by

a 12 year old prostitute

He gets shot

broken

he doesn't save everybody

or always stop the bad guy.

but those failures are followed by genuine triumphs.

this leads to

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RV18kZIBBZA

This moment didn't occur in a Godamn vacum.

It was very meticulously led up to. It was planned. It was

earned!

Johns doesn't get that.

No reasonable person could read this and not agree that Geoff Johns has a problem. And that problem is not that he

has been fail, lose or stumble, but that he 1.) never makes the character attacking Batman earn it. And 2). He never

allows Batman to genuinely overcome his humiliation. Johns spends the first twenty issues of his shit run and justice

league having characters mock batman for not having powers. All of this could have worked out. Johns set up Batman

having plans to take down the JLA, An idea he homaged (see stole from) Waid's run on JLA.

Look at Batman's plans to take down the justice league In Mark Waid's excellent Babel arc,

Batman crafts brilliant tactics that exploit the leaguers very real weakness. Wonder Woman's pride, Flash's arrogance

Superman's bleeding heart. These are keen insights that uncomfortably reveal Batman's opinion of the others. In

Geoff's retread, he has batman collect random super villain weapons hoping they work. Here was his chance to prove

he could write the character well. That he understood that all that abuse to be justified needs to lead up to some

vindication. Batman's chance to shine and show why not having powers isn't a thing. Instead we get this....

Batman being yellow lantern for a page and then spending the rest of the series constantly nerfing his intellect and

prowess. Never letting him have a moment of competence.

Which leads to the next problem....Geoff Johns doesn't get the gotham villians

That's right Wally, the joker isn't scary, nope. Instead some repeat bank robber who stole schematics for a freeze gun.

Seriously, Johns has to tear down characters like Batman because the sad thing is, Batman doesn't need Johns.

Think about it. Johns has written most of the current DC roster. With the exception of Wonder Woman and Martian

Manhunter, the only big League member he hasn't written is Batman in the regular universe. That's because Batman's

universe works. Johns' big stick is about ignoring previous stuff and fixing a character. Batman doesn't need fixing.

He's not the typical DC hero. And Johns can't fit the Batman people love, or the villains and sidekicks into his vision of

the DC universe proper. So by making Batman something else, by dumbing him down and breaking him apart,

he is destroying the character as he is. But he's not destroying "batgod".

He's destroying the only character that DC has that has consistently worked

since Batman year one.

And that is something reasonable fans both of the character and the universe he resides in have a

problem with.

The way you have your format is weird but the content is good.

Batman fans have A LOT of devotion.

lol I'm just kidding.

@ultrastarkiller: Thanks, it was my first time. I needed to organize this, put it together and write it down. I mean, I gave Johns a chance, I followed through the awful forever evil, the meaningless trinity arc of JLA, and his terrible first twelve issues. He's just not writing stories I'm interested in. His Justice League has been bad, Earth One had gorgeous art but was bland, and his run on Shazam completely misses the point of the character. I've seriously dropped him pretty much. I'm buying Azzy on Wonder Woman, ending soon, and Snyder on Batman. My DC pull list has been reduced. Fortunately, the Indy market is booming. Soooooo, that's money out of Didio's pocket.

*shrug* I love Geoff Johns work most of the time. Sometimes his Batman work isn't that great though, I agree.

So? Frank Miller messed up Superman for Batmans sake so it's Batmans turn to have bad writing nice thread though.

@darkbeam: How about every character has good writing instead?

I liked forever evil, I disagree with some of your points but agree with others

its true he didn't show batman at his maximum capabilities, but realistically against the other members of the justice league the batkick shouldnt really do anything, it's a bit of a shame batman couldnt pull resources together, but i think the point was to make some villains look like heroes

@jaken7: That would be good but it will never happen.

Johns is a good writer. But he seems to have a problem with hugelyiconic characters (not just Batman, but Superman as well). The guy does wonders with most characters that he touches. But admittedly, he doesn't do his best work when dealing with Batman or teams of big-name heroes, in my opinion.

Don't have time for much detail, but I disagree with the OP on almost every point. I think John's gets a part of Batman many writers..and most fans do not. I also really disagree that he's ever made Batman something he is not. Miller was far more guilty of this back in the 80's then Johns has been the last decade. Every writer will have a different take on Batman, but one that Batman's arrogance will, at times, bite him back, and he won't always be vindicated is not a new take. He won't always be right, and he won't always win. It's been done before. FWIW..that last scan with Wally and Bruce is GREAT! Bruce's ego won't allow him to think anybody beside him is competent. Wally, being kind of brash himself is not giving into him. That's really not dissing Bats as much as it respecting Wally.Wally doesn't have to/wouldn't take crap like that from Bruce...and yes, Bruce would dish it out like that. Doesn't mean Wally has stand there like an idiot and take it. I love Batman, he really is my favorite character, but I don't think that means Clark, Wally, Hal, Diana etc have to sit back and be insulted by him and never call him out. I also don't see how you think FE was Batman "having no competence"..he escaped the Crime Syndicate when the rest of the JLA couldn't. pretty damn impressive..Oh..but he's not 100% effective with a yellow power ring..(why should he be, btw?) gee..John's must be "nerfing him"..or maybe John's is showing some respect for the significance of owning a power ring? That not just any vigilante can pick one up and be proficient with it? LIke I said..love the Bat, great hero. But I don't think he has to be able to humiliate demi-gods and beat everyone to be great.

Batman fanboys are truly amazing

@supbatz: His Superman writing is MUCH better than his Batman writing IMO. I can't stand how he writes Batman but Johns is one writer who absolutely gets Superman through and through. Look at his first New 52 Superman issue, people are already loving what he's doing compared to the rest of the New 52. Not to mention his Pre New 52 stuff. Though granted, Johns does his best work on unfamiliar and unknown characters revamping them into something new and fresh.

The problem with Johns is that he has favorites and not-so-favorites but he's not subtle about it.

Also, this formatting is cancer.

@darkbeam: Yeah, no. Frank Miller wrote Superman completely in character. He showed the character save the planet from nuclear armageddon.

So you don't know what you are talking about. I like Superman, I like Batman. I like them most when they are written as competent men with two different outlooks. A mature person doesn't think it has to be anyones turn.

@mandman: yeah just because he saves people doesn't make him in character.And do you know how happy I would be if all characters we're written correctly? I'd be dancing on a table oh and or you saying that new 52 Superman beating Batman is bad writting?because it's not Superman would beat Batman 90 percent of the time Aquaman would too.And please don't take this as a personal attack lets discuss this peacefully :-)

@jaken7: That would require amazing writers across the board, and comics will never have that.

@ostyo: I'm just saying. It's better to wish for that then just accept when it's a certain character's turn to be written terribly. That's dumb.

Nice to finally understand the John's hate now.

Johns is a mediocre writer. His very best work is only okay.

Well, Johns writes a good few things but Superman is the only thing he writes that I love.

I like when Batman is put in his place when Geoff is writing.

@mandman: Superman cut off Ollie's hand, Superman sided with the Government over fighting for his ideals, Superman was willing to KILL Batman because he was ordered to.

Superman played interventionist to a conflict and picked sides.

None of that is in character for Superman. Would Batman be I'm character if he worked for GCPD, but as their lead detective? He's still a detective...

Frank Miller DID NOT write Superman right! Never, EVER, say that.

*begins slow clap*

Batman never gets a chance to redeem himself?

Batman punched out Hal after Hal punched him, Throne of Atlantis was an Aquaman build up story, he one shotted Superman too. And how exactly is Batman going to get back at Superman? Punch him in the face with Kryptonite? Would that make Batman better written?

Secondly, only Hal mocked Batman in JL and he only did that because BATMAN STOLE HIS RING RIGHT UNDER HIS NOSE! My God, GJ's biggest character tied to his name gets humiliated in issue one of the biggest book of the year by Batman and people still call Geoff bias.

Plus, they elected Batman as JL leader, a sign of respect.

Mark Waid's tower of Babel arc was PIS. GJ's plans actually worked. Only plan that didn't was GL because it wasn't charged. Admitting he didn't have a PIS plan for Diana or GL is good writing, hypnotizing a sleeping GL and making Wonder Woman hallucinate (The lasso of truth should prevent mind control/hallucinations) is bad writing. As is shooting the fastest man alive with a bullet when BATMAN DOESN'T USE GUNS!

Typical, bag on Flash's rouges but get upset because Geoff said Flash's rouges are more realistic and, this, more terrifying. So, it's okay to belittle Flash, but if Batman doesn't walk on water we burn DC to the ground.

Just a bunch of whiney @$$ biatches.

@mandman: Very well written article. I read somewhere that Johns' admit he doesn't "get" Batman. Which is a problem when he's the most popular character in the whole DC Universe

@superguy1591: So you had no problem with the Johns' wrote the Lex Luthor and Batman dynamic? Lex pick pocketing Batman? Or tricking him into think he killed Dick for no reason? That all seemed like an attempt to make Batman look bad

@phantom1527: I'm pretty sure even Johns would tell you that he doesn't think Lex can pick pocket Bruce. It was a PIS feat that Lex wont ever duplicate, but Geoff needed a way get the ring to end the story.

Do you really think Batman would've given it to him?

And, last I checked, Luthor is a bad guy. No one would be shocked if he had killed Dick, would you? Why is Batman thinking Luthor killed Dick and avenging his son a bad character moment from him?

And when Dick came back to life, Batman didn't com across as dumb, he knew what had happened, but he didn't know Luthor would do it.

As far as the Luthor and Batman dynamic, Luthor is smarter than Bruce, Luthor being one step ahead is in character of them. But this is a Batman v Luthor arc in JL, so Batman will get his chance to beat Luthor.

How so?

@superguy1591: Idk if Lex always being one step ahead of Batman is in character or not. And you blamed some other writers for lazy writing, don't you think Luthor pickpocketing Batman (with huge gloves on mind you) isn't lazy writing?

@dagmar_merrill: They commit crime and do it to survive, the don't have some insane fetish of wanting to test Batman since it just leads to their @$$3$ being kicked.

Wow. VERY well said,man.

@phantom1527: Don't think I ever said that scene was excellent, I just laughed when it happened.

But all this Geoff is anti-Batman nonsense is nonsense.

@superguy1591: I'm not gonna go as far to say that he's Anti-Batman, but I do feel like with the Justice League as a whole he's trying to make it his own and it isn't turning out so great. I tried to get into Trinity War and Forever Evil and just couldn't. At the same time though, I kind of like his spin on Captain Marvel/Shazam. I admit he's in a tough spot, because you don't want to necessarily be a Morrison or Frank Miller copycat, but at the same time it isn't always a good idea to change the money maker characters (Batman and Superman sell comics, many people read Justice League to see them in action and will stop reading if they are portrayed too differently than accustomed) too much. Geoff Johns gave Justice League a good try to make it his own, but I'd rather see someone else handle the story arc.

Me thinks that...within the many...many...many...many stories that have, will, and do feature Batman...the work of Geoff isn't that large a problem. It's a drop in the bucket, mostly I'd say. For every moment you could come up with for John, you could probably find 10 examples of either "perfect" Batman or downright Batgod.

So, Geoff can't write Batman. He doesn't get Batman. Fair enough. Then he shouldn't be working on Batman, but the way they shift people around, may as well understand it will happen at times and just grin and bear through it. Lord knows, a lot of other characters and fans of those characters have it a lot worse off than Batman.

@phantom1527: No, the entire point of the N52 JL is to give everyone a chance to shine, not just Superman and Batman.

Do I wish Superman featured more? Yes, but I don't need it to be a Superman book or a Batman/Superman book.

I have Action Comics, Superman and B/S for that. I like the "everyone gets a chance" approach. This is a Batman arc, enjoy.

@superguy1591: Superman was defending an Island nation the Soviets invaded like Afghanistan. The reason he fought for the Government was because he wanted to still be a hero and help people. He wasn't entirely wrong. And Ollie was a Communist, which meant he was subverting the government of the United States. DKR was about shades of grey. I loved the DKR superman, I feel like he was very much the Reeves version which at that time was very big. Miller was saying these two characters lived in two different worlds.

"Batman never gets a chance to redeem himself?

Batman punched out Hal after Hal punched him, Throne of Atlantis was an Aquaman build up story, he one shotted Superman too. And how exactly is Batman going to get back at Superman? Punch him in the face with Kryptonite? Would that make Batman better written?"

No, because that would be juvenile. What would be better writing would be Batman having a countermeasure after having been joked by Superman a year earlier. Again Johns is recycling ideas rather then using fresh ones.

"Typical, bag on Flash's rouges but get upset because Geoff said Flash's rouges are more realistic"

Yes, the asshat with the freeze gun is soooo realistic. My eyes are rolling at this one. moving on.

dagmar_merrill Yeah, I like Johns' run on Superman too. But I went back and like two thirds of it were written by other people, (Rich Donner and Kurt Busiek.) Also, Busiek was writing Superman and fill ins for when Johns was busy writing one of the other five titles he was working on. He had a great run on Superman, except, y'know not knowing how to write Batman in his universe. Which wasn't a problem because he was writing Supes. I can appreciate Johns, but he's overreached. You can't write a team book and, hate isn't the right word, have contempt for a character. Grant Morrison and Mark Waid said they didn't get Wonder Woman when they wrote JLA. But there is still respect there. All that happened was Diana was more cardboard then during Joe Kelly's subsequent run.

ScouterV You sir, are right. This is what will inevitably happen. But see, I don't hate Geoff Johns. I like all the DC characters, and right or wrong DC has turned him into their Stan Lee. I feel like

this interferes with my ability to enjoy a character because of his immature dislike a character he doesn't have to write. I have similar but different distaste for the way he writes Wonder Woman.

CF12793 Thanks, I think...:)

@superguy1591: Superman was defending an Island nation the Soviets invaded like Afghanistan. The reason he fought for the Government was because he wanted to still be a hero and help people. He wasn't entirely wrong. And Ollie was a Communist, which meant he was subverting the government of the United States. DKR was about shades of grey. I loved the DKR superman, I feel like he was very much the Reeves version which at that time was very big. Miller was saying these two characters lived in two different worlds.

"Batman never gets a chance to redeem himself?

Batman punched out Hal after Hal punched him, Throne of Atlantis was an Aquaman build up story, he one shotted Superman too. And how exactly is Batman going to get back at Superman? Punch him in the face with Kryptonite? Would that make Batman better written?"

No, because that would be juvenile. What would be better writing would be Batman having a countermeasure after having been joked by Superman a year earlier. Again Johns is recycling ideas rather then using fresh ones.

"Typical, bag on Flash's rouges but get upset because Geoff said Flash's rouges are more realistic"

Yes, the asshat with the freeze gun is soooo realistic. My eyes are rolling at this one. moving on.

dagmar_merrill Yeah, I like Johns' run on Superman too. But I went back and like two thirds of it were written by other people, (Rich Donner and Kurt Busiek.) Also, Busiek was writing Superman and fill ins for when Johns was busy writing one of the other five titles he was working on. He had a great run on Superman, except, y'know not knowing how to write Batman in his universe. Which wasn't a problem because he was writing Supes. I can appreciate Johns, but he's overreached. You can't write a team book and, hate isn't the right word, have contempt for a character. Grant Morrison and Mark Waid said they didn't get Wonder Woman when they wrote JLA. But there is still respect there. All that happened was Diana was more cardboard then during Joe Kelly's subsequent run.

ScouterV You sir, are right. This is what will inevitably happen. But see, I don't hate Geoff Johns. I like all the DC characters, and right or wrong DC has turned him into their Stan Lee. I feel like

this interferes with my ability to enjoy a character because of his immature dislike a character he doesn't have to write. I have similar but different distaste for the way he writes Wonder Woman.

CF12793 Thanks, I think...:)

@superguy1591: That's not what I said. I said that when you alter the way DC's two iconic characters that are the main draw to Justice League comics (Didn't say you personally felt this way) people will probably be opposed to it. What the point of Justice League is and what many expect are two very different things

@mandman: Yes, the asshat with the freeze gun is soooo realistic. My eyes are rolling at this one. moving on.

Yeah because it's not like Batman doesn't have a guy with a freeze gun too.

@night4345:

No one said Mr. Freeze, or half of Batman's villians, were realistic.

Its just baffling.

I terms of writing, why does Lex Luthor need to resort to stealing the Kryptonite ring? Why can't he make his own? This is the same Lex Luthor, president of Lexcorp?

Isnt the K ring in the central lead lined case in he middle of his utiliy belt as seen in Hush? How the hell is that unlocked and opened without Batman noticing? Bat brain damage?

Seriously thats my opinion. However i completely disagree with how frank miller's superman is a good interpretation of the character. It is the only interpretation of superman that disgusts me to point that i won't even pick up the book which is a shame because supposably the dark knight returns is an impressive story. If you want a different superman that appears to be "cooler" then read earth one superman or even the new 52. Frank Miller wrote that fight because he wanted to see batman beating superman. He stated that in his AMA on reddit. He has no understanding of the character and should stay away from him. If Johns's batman is that bad then i could understand all the hate however from what i've read and from in my opinion his batman is still readable. His justice league origin in the new 52 is still one of my favourite arcs in comic history.

@soldierofel: Totally agreed on Frank Millar's depiction of Superman. If you're as turned off by it as I am, you probably wouldn't have liked the teaser trailer that shows heavy influence of TDKR for Batman vs Superman: Dawn of Justice.

Lots of Bat-Centric users around here.

The way Johns portrays Batman is absolutely fine. Regardless of the fact that Batman is awesome (which is totally is), he is a jerk. Johns didn't invent that notion.

No. No it is not.