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#1 Posted by Squalleon (3002 posts) - - Show Bio
#2 Posted by darkman61288 (673 posts) - - Show Bio

I honestly think that it won't work. One, like an overwhelming majority of comic readers are male. Two, in most popular female marketed fiction like Twilight and the Sookie Sackhouse series the relationship is very similar to the Superman/Lois Lane romance. Three, it creates the illusion like DC thinks that women are only into romance with can be bad publicity.

#3 Posted by Wolverine08 (26586 posts) - - Show Bio

I honestly think that it won't work. One, like an overwhelming majority of comic readers are male. Two, in most popular female marketed fiction like Twilight and the Sookie Sackhouse series the relationship is very similar to the Superman/Lois Lane romance. Three, it creates the illusion like DC thinks that women are only into romance with can be bad publicity.

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#4 Posted by lykopis (10756 posts) - - Show Bio

Not impressed.

I don't want romance, I want quality writing about quality heroes.

#5 Posted by DecoyElite (4019 posts) - - Show Bio

F*** romance!

NEEDS MORE PUNCHES!

#6 Posted by MaccyD (2845 posts) - - Show Bio

Bit generalizing isn't it? Believing that women prefer all books to have more romance?

#7 Posted by The Stegman (20737 posts) - - Show Bio

Part of me wants to say that's bullsh*t generalization..but then again, plenty of girls I know only watch romance movies and detest action/horror stuff...I kinda wanna see some statistics on the amount of women who prefer romance in their fiction now..hmmm...

#8 Posted by batpala (339 posts) - - Show Bio

#9 Posted by darkman61288 (673 posts) - - Show Bio

@the_stegman: That I think describes women in the GP, but women who read comics it is not. Look at Batman, he , to my understanding, has the most female readers. If I am right about that then women who read comics are not into romance because lets face it there not much romance in Batman comics.

#10 Posted by The Stegman (20737 posts) - - Show Bio

@the_stegman: That I think describes women in the GP, but women who read comics it is not. Look at Batman, he , to my understanding, has the most female readers. If I am right about that then women who read comics are not into romance because lets face it there not much romance in Batman comics.

They could just think Batman's hawt :P

#11 Edited by darkman61288 (673 posts) - - Show Bio
#12 Posted by darkman61288 (673 posts) - - Show Bio

@lykopis said:

Not impressed.

I don't want romance, I want quality writing about quality heroes.

It is inevitable that SM/WW became just a romance book. Hey in my opinion if it truns out so that people are permanently turned oof by it then that is a good thing.

#13 Posted by batpala (339 posts) - - Show Bio

If they wanted to make comics directed at women or get more female readers they could not treat the female characters awfully. Just a thought?

#14 Posted by Lvenger (16042 posts) - - Show Bio

I honestly think that it won't work. One, like an overwhelming majority of comic readers are male. Two, in most popular female marketed fiction like Twilight and the Sookie Sackhouse series the relationship is very similar to the Superman/Lois Lane romance. Three, it creates the illusion like DC thinks that women are only into romance with can be bad publicity.

QFT. And it's a shame because Soule and Daniels are an excellent creative team latched to a poorly conceived premise for an ongoing series.

#15 Posted by V_Scarlotte_Rose (5551 posts) - - Show Bio

Wow, romance in a series about a couple? Didn't see that coming...

They could have handled this better. If they are operating under the idea that all women want romance in their superhero comics, couldn't they have just said there's romance in it rather than make a generalisation?

#16 Edited by Smallville2106 (92 posts) - - Show Bio

I don't mind it having some romance as long as there is a great story and some good action.

#17 Posted by RustyRoy (9233 posts) - - Show Bio

Why is anyone surprised by it? Didn't Soule already said it before that the book will have romance, action, drama, humor etc. etc.? I'm not picking up this book but this was already said before, nothing new, and females do prefer romance, not every one but most of them do, many guys also prefer romance. What's wrong in that? Its like saying teenagers prefer action is a bad generalization.

#18 Edited by Kraya (203 posts) - - Show Bio

Neither surprised by the news, nor interested in the comic. I'm not sure their strategy will pay off in the long run. As hard as it is to get people who wouldn't normally read comics into them, it's even harder to keep them interested.

#19 Posted by SOG7dc (6713 posts) - - Show Bio

Love it

#20 Edited by ShadowX (1083 posts) - - Show Bio

Ugh. Seriously -_- I knoe man woman who would rather has a comic book focusing on a complex female character without a love intrest.

#21 Posted by SC (11960 posts) - - Show Bio

Oh so thats how they do it? Well snap to it DC and Marvel, put Batman and Batwoman together, Spider-man and Spider Woman, Ms Marvel and Thor, Hulk and uh She Hulk. Emma Frost and a mirror, lets just pair all the characters together romantically and then all 3 billion woman will be forced to buy the comics.

Superman and Wonder Woman book is probably more for creators and fans that like the fantasy of the best and most original wish fulfillment character with the highest profile female character they have.

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#22 Edited by lifeboy (1621 posts) - - Show Bio

Yesss! My body is ready for this...

#23 Posted by Pokeysteve (7016 posts) - - Show Bio

They could talk about tampons and cramps every issue and I'll still buy this book...

#24 Posted by Kraya (203 posts) - - Show Bio

@sc said:

Oh so thats how they do it? Well snap to it DC and Marvel, put Batman and Batwoman together, Spider-man and Spider Woman, Ms Marvel and Thor, Hulk and uh She Hulk. Emma Frost and a mirror, lets just pair all the characters together romantically and then all 3 billion woman will be forced to buy the comics.

Superman and Wonder Woman book is probably more for creators and fans that like the fantasy of the best and most original wish fulfillment character with the highest profile female character they have.

Batman and Batwoman? I think not. But I get where you're going with that comment.

#25 Edited by SC (11960 posts) - - Show Bio
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#26 Posted by Kraya (203 posts) - - Show Bio

@sc: I don't know much about Hulk and She-Hulk, but now that I think about it, are they related?

#27 Posted by RustyRoy (9233 posts) - - Show Bio
#28 Posted by SC (11960 posts) - - Show Bio

@kraya said:

@sc: I don't know much about Hulk and She-Hulk, but now that I think about it, are they related?

Nods nods, cousins by blood. You correctly guessed by pairings were really bad heh heh ^_^

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#29 Posted by SOG7dc (6713 posts) - - Show Bio

Because everyone knows women hate romance lol

#30 Posted by Kraya (203 posts) - - Show Bio

@sog7dc: That depends on the type of women. I, personally, don't want an overload of romance. I prefer romance to remain in the background and not the focus of a comic/ book. I'm sure I'm not the only woman to think that way either. Besides, for this comic to work, people need to like the Superman/Wonder Woman pairing and surely not all of them do.

@sc: That cousin thing was somewhere deeply hidden at the back of my mind. And like I said, I knew what you were getting at with that whole pairing thing. Batwoman just stuck out as wrongly paired there for me, because she is one of the characters I know a bit more about, so I jumped on that. Although... it's not as if she wasn't designed to be Batman's love interest initially <_<

#31 Posted by ccraft (3962 posts) - - Show Bio

surprise people already condemning this book

#32 Edited by TheManInTheShoe (3774 posts) - - Show Bio
#33 Edited by V_Scarlotte_Rose (5551 posts) - - Show Bio

@kraya said:

@sog7dc: That depends on the type of women. I, personally, don't want an overload of romance. I prefer romance to remain in the background and not the focus of a comic/ book. I'm sure I'm not the only woman to think that way either. Besides, for this comic to work, people need to like the Superman/Wonder Woman pairing and surely not all of them do.

@sc: That cousin thing was somewhere deeply hidden at the back of my mind. And like I said, I knew what you were getting at with that whole pairing thing. Batwoman just stuck out as wrongly paired there for me, because she is one of the characters I know a bit more about, so I jumped on that. Although... it's not as if she wasn't designed to be Batman's love interest initially <_<

That was a different Batwoman though.

Or do you just mean the concept of there being a Batwoman?

#34 Posted by Kraya (203 posts) - - Show Bio
#35 Posted by V_Scarlotte_Rose (5551 posts) - - Show Bio
#36 Posted by SC (11960 posts) - - Show Bio

@ccraft said:

surprise people already condemning this book

> Condemning a book <

> Being critical of an idea that seems like its trying to stereotype and pander to a certain demographic <

> Lack of initiative and progress with other ideas that could also appeal to similar target demographics <

Different things see? Like India has lots of people, so how about a book where Superman Wonder Woman and Batman become Bollywood stars to target Indian readers and fans of Bollywood movies? Would there be condemnation of that book or the ideas and reasons behind it? Thats just me though. Ideas/reasons >> books.

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#37 Posted by RustyRoy (9233 posts) - - Show Bio

@sc said:

@ccraft said:

surprise people already condemning this book

> Condemning a book <

> Being critical of an idea that seems like its trying to stereotype and pander to a certain demographic <

> Lack of initiative and progress with other ideas that could also appeal to similar target demographics <

Different things see? Like India has lots of people, so how about a book where Superman Wonder Woman and Batman become Bollywood stars to target Indian readers and fans of Bollywood movies? Would there be condemnation of that book or the ideas and reasons behind it? Thats just me though. Ideas/reasons >> books.

But why is it wrong, most books target a certain type of readers, that's nothing new, if they want to appeal to Indian readers than they'll introduce an Indian character. And they never said it would only focus on romance, they just said it will focus more on romance which I think h meant that it will focus more on their relationship. Its not generalizing, they're trying to go for non comic book readers also. The book hasn't even been out yet and people seem to think they know everything about the book.

#38 Posted by V_Scarlotte_Rose (5551 posts) - - Show Bio

@rustyroy said:

@sc said:

@ccraft said:

surprise people already condemning this book

> Condemning a book <

> Being critical of an idea that seems like its trying to stereotype and pander to a certain demographic <

> Lack of initiative and progress with other ideas that could also appeal to similar target demographics <

Different things see? Like India has lots of people, so how about a book where Superman Wonder Woman and Batman become Bollywood stars to target Indian readers and fans of Bollywood movies? Would there be condemnation of that book or the ideas and reasons behind it? Thats just me though. Ideas/reasons >> books.

But why is it wrong, most books target a certain type of readers, that's nothing new, if they want to appeal to Indian readers than they'll introduce an Indian character. And they never said it would only focus on romance, they just said it will focus more on romance which I think h meant that it will focus more on their relationship. Its not generalizing, they're trying to go for non comic book readers also. The book hasn't even been out yet and people seem to think they know everything about the book.

If this was how they targeted an Indian audience, then wouldn't the way to target a female audience be to introduce more female characters?

That seems like a better way of doing it than saying "what's an Indian thing we can put in this comic so that Indians will like it? Bollywood!". That's suggesting that all Indian people want Bollywood in their superhero comics, which may put off the ones that don't, annoy non-Indians for suggesting that Bollywood is something that only Indian people can enjoy, and make some non-Indian people think,"if this is made for Indians, maybe it's not for me."

So in this case it's "That seems like a better way of doing it than saying "what's a womens thing we can put in this comic so that women will like it? Romance!". That's suggesting that all women want romance in their superhero comics, which may put off the ones that don't, annoy non-women for suggesting that romance is something that only women can enjoy, and make non-women think,"if this is made for women, maybe it's not for me.""

My point is that if the plan is to target a certain demographic, it's maybe best to not tell the demographic why they should like it, and just let the comic speak for itself. Just say it has romance, and let the people make up their own minds.

#39 Edited by SC (11960 posts) - - Show Bio

@rustyroy said:

Who said it was wrong or original? Its not a matter of what they could do, using the India example is just that, an example, they could introduce a new Indian character and that would probably be better than trying to "inorganically force" an established character with their own qualities and context into a new Bollywood setting to appeal to those same target audience. Which makes your example kind of interesting, because a lot of the backlash towards this creative decision and pairing of Wonder Woman and Superman has been from female readers and fans. Why not just create a new interesting romantic character for Wonder Woman or Superman instead of "having them give up being heroes to move to India" - and no one said that they would absolutely one hundred percent only focus on romance or that it would be a bad thing anyway, its the reasons and reasoning behind the decisions. Naturally they will probably cover other ground, do people always have to provide disclaimers?

Sure, comics and creative decisions and their creators have a tough job trying to balance out catering to established readers and gaining new readers, sometimes its hard to make the best decisions to get the most out of both, no dispute there.

Thats probably true as far as people and attitudes to the book, but thats also true about fans and their attitude to other fans. Some fans have sincere and valid criticisms and other fans start thinking that those fans "think they know everything about the book" and are "hating on it before they have read it" without actually accurately identifying the criticism, its validity and where its aimed at. Difference between a creative idea or decision and execution of an idea or decision. Lots of people confuse critical analysis for hate, negativity or pessimism and when people are defensive to all those things as if they are the same, many valid and positive points get lost. Just want to make sure I am not saying you are doing that, but yeah, ain't nothing wrong with people having problems with the reasoning and ideas behind the book. Does not mean they are judging the book or believe they know everything about it. ^_^

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#40 Posted by DecoyElite (4019 posts) - - Show Bio

@sc said:

@kraya said:

@sc: I don't know much about Hulk and She-Hulk, but now that I think about it, are they related?

Nods nods, cousins by blood. You correctly guessed by pairings were really bad heh heh ^_^

I think the Emma Frost and a mirror one works.

#41 Posted by SC (11960 posts) - - Show Bio

That seems like a better way of doing it than saying "what's an Indian thing we can put in this comic so that Indians will like it? Bollywood!". That's suggesting that all Indian people want Bollywood in their superhero comics, which may put off the ones that don't, annoy non-Indians for suggesting that Bollywood is something that only Indian people can enjoy, and make some non-Indian people think,"if this is made for Indians, maybe it's not for me."

So in this case it's

"That seems like a better way of doing it than saying "what's a womens thing we can put in this comic so that women will like it? Romance!". That's suggesting that all women want romance in their superhero comics, which may put off the ones that don't, annoy non-women for suggesting that romance is something that only women can enjoy, and make non-women think,"if this is made for women, maybe it's not for me.""

My point is that if the plan is to target a certain demographic, it's maybe best to not tell the demographic why they should like it, and just let the comic speak for itself. Just say it has romance, and let the people make up their own minds.

This is a great point too.

Their are Indian characters in comics, like Karima Shapander, and the X-Men have visited India for some missions as well, these are organic uses of characters. For many fans putting Wonder Woman into a relationship with Superman and then putting them into a joint book that will have "romance" and thats going to draw more woman? For many thats very very inorganic and forced. It also is ironic because its potentially alienating many established female fans (and male fans) of Wonder Woman, for hypothetical female fans who want romance and so are anticipating this new Superman/Wonder Woman romance book.

What would be more organic would be providing good and diverse comic book characters of any gender with good characterization and put them in a diverse range of quality stories. Thats a good way to get female readers, and funnily enough male readers, black readers, lesbian readers, Indian readers, young readers. Surprising almost. Characters like Batwoman, Emma Frost, Hawkeye, Batman, books like Y the Last Man, Saga, are all instances of getting lots of new readers, female readers, male readers and they are very different and the only real think they share in common is quality and depth.

Using characters as props for things like romance to attract a certain gender is kind of outdated business model. In reality people don't fit in nice little neat boxes. Not only that but look how many threads are dedicated to Batman and Superman fans arguing over who Wonder Woman loves more? How many threads arguing whether between Batman and Superman who has more passionate love towards Wonder Woman? Lots of those fans are going to be guys who are fans of Batman and Superman and see Wonder Woman as an accessory or prize to prove who is the more manly character, it wouldn't be that far fetched to suggest this creative pairing was prompted by DC creators/editors who wanted to help flesh out the Superman fantasy. A similar thing happened with Black Panther and Storm in Marvel and a certain writer.

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#42 Posted by XImpossibruX (5029 posts) - - Show Bio

Hilarious, hope this book flops hard.

#43 Edited by SC (11960 posts) - - Show Bio

@decoyelite said:

The only problem is that Emma might get annoyed at the mirror for stealing her unique and fabulous fashion sense, prompting her to call the mirror a sodding cow, throwing a wine bottle at it, only to return later on to see a broken mirror and realize she killed the love of her life in a drunken fit of passion and insecurity. =(

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#44 Posted by DecoyElite (4019 posts) - - Show Bio

@sc said:

@decoyelite said:

The only problem is that Emma might get annoyed at the mirror for stealing her unique and fabulous fashion sense, prompting her to call the mirror a sodding cow, throwing a wine bottle at it, only to return later on to see a broken mirror and realize she killed the love of her life in a drunken fit of passion and insecurity. =(

The ultimate tragedy.

#45 Posted by RustyRoy (9233 posts) - - Show Bio
@sc said:

@rustyroy said:

Who said it was wrong or original? Its not a matter of what they could do, using the India example is just that, an example, they could introduce a new Indian character and that would probably be better than trying to "inorganically force" an established character with their own qualities and context into a new Bollywood setting to appeal to those same target audience. Which makes your example kind of interesting, because a lot of the backlash towards this creative decision and pairing of Wonder Woman and Superman has been from female readers and fans. Why not just create a new interesting romantic character for Wonder Woman or Superman instead of "having them give up being heroes to move to India" - and no one said that they would absolutely one hundred percent only focus on romance or that it would be a bad thing anyway, its the reasons and reasoning behind the decisions. Naturally they will probably cover other ground, do people always have to provide disclaimers?

Sure, comics and creative decisions and their creators have a tough job trying to balance out catering to established readers and gaining new readers, sometimes its hard to make the best decisions to get the most out of both, no dispute there.

Thats probably true as far as people and attitudes to the book, but thats also true about fans and their attitude to other fans. Some fans have sincere and valid criticisms and other fans start thinking that those fans "think they know everything about the book" and are "hating on it before they have read it" without actually accurately identifying the criticism, its validity and where its aimed at. Difference between a creative idea or decision and execution of an idea or decision. Lots of people confuse critical analysis for hate, negativity or pessimism and when people are defensive to all those things as if they are the same, many valid and positive points get lost. Just want to make sure I am not saying you are doing that, but yeah, ain't nothing wrong with people having problems with the reasoning and ideas behind the book. Does not mean they are judging the book or believe they know everything about it. ^_^

What valid criticisms? And what exactly do we know about the book yet? They could definitely create new characters for a love interest but what's the problem with this one? And no they don't have to provide disclaimers but this disclaimers are important IMO, that way I can know if the book is right for me. You didn't even give any good reasons, your post just seemed like you think WW is a female version of Superman.

If this was how they targeted an Indian audience, then wouldn't the way to target a female audience be to introduce more female characters?

That seems like a better way of doing it than saying "what's an Indian thing we can put in this comic so that Indians will like it? Bollywood!". That's suggesting that all Indian people want Bollywood in their superhero comics, which may put off the ones that don't, annoy non-Indians for suggesting that Bollywood is something that only Indian people can enjoy, and make some non-Indian people think,"if this is made for Indians, maybe it's not for me."

So in this case it's

"That seems like a better way of doing it than saying "what's a womens thing we can put in this comic so that women will like it? Romance!". That's suggesting that all women want romance in their superhero comics, which may put off the ones that don't, annoy non-women for suggesting that romance is something that only women can enjoy, and make non-women think,"if this is made for women, maybe it's not for me.""

My point is that if the plan is to target a certain demographic, it's maybe best to not tell the demographic why they should like it, and just let the comic speak for itself. Just say it has romance, and let the people make up their own minds.

But a large amount of women do like romance, its for them, its not for the ones who don't like romance, Transformer movies are not made for 60 year olds just like not many teenagers would enjoy Godfather. Like the Superman family adventure books are targeted to children and it is made clear that it is for children. They never said it will be only romance or it is only for females, Soule made it clear that it will be a mix of romance, drama and action and Daniels probably tried to imply that women would enjoy this book too. Not everyone likes the dark and edge group books, its directed towards a specific demography, and not every man has the mentality that if its for women than I won't like it. DC already knows that a large group of male fans will buy the books but they need something that can appeal to female fans to. And here's an example, a martial arts movie has 80% of doing great even if the lead in the movie is non-Asian, martial arts appeal to Asians, not all but most Asians, is that gen

#46 Posted by SC (11960 posts) - - Show Bio

@rustyroy said:

Well first do you think that ideas and concepts can't be criticized? If you want to see examples of problems you really just need to look up through this thread, even if you don't think the problems are valid or a problem to you, real people with real investment and real money have problems with the pairing, naturally there are people that don't have problems this pairing, therein DC creative trying to balance things out and how and what they do from hereon in creative decision wise.

I mean a posters disclaimers to try and avoid posters assuming or inferring things about their posts so they have to spend time clarifying after. Like you mistakenly assume I view Wonder Woman as a Superman clone, you preface it correctly as an assumption by using the word seem, but its still an assumption thats inaccurate of me, that I have to now spend time clarifying isn't true. If the book is right for you, thats great. If you name some books that you don't like or pairings that you don't like, maybe you could mention them, then I can explain that you probably have good reasons for feeling that way despite the fact that in 3 months time such pairings or books might be really really awesome. Similar principles at work.

If we are going by inferring and assumptions, you seem to be excited and looking forward to this book? You feel that many of the criticisms towards this book are unjustified and unfair? Your trying to defend the book? Which is great, something I always remind myself when interacting with other people and their opinions is the knowledge that people have this natural tendency to both blindly criticize and blindly defend things, and ironically this can happen against each other. I am not entirely sure if you actually know where my own criticisms lay towards, and a few assumptions you have made me so far have been inaccurate. Your initial reply sough not clarification, nor did it have sincere questions, nor attempts to see how we might differ with opinions or preferences, it jumped to being defensive and defensive of this book and paring rather than addressing say points I made about the logic that could be applied to how DC creative v(and many other entity's, people, sources view target demographics. Like are you awarer I have no criticisms of the actual book? I am the kind of person that when I give reasons, I give long reasons. Much more enjoyable for me to apply skeptical sarcasm towards faulty logic from DC, Marvel, etc I don't feel compelled to justify my the reasoning behind my own preferences unless asked or when I am bored heh heh. ^_^

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#47 Edited by ___________________________ (238 posts) - - Show Bio

Most people are taking away from this that DC thinks woman must love romance.
I'm taking away from that DC thinks all men must hate romance.

#48 Posted by RustyRoy (9233 posts) - - Show Bio

@sc: First of all I don't like this pairing and I don't want to read the book(look at my first comment), and yes I've read every comment posted before mine but none of those had given any good reasons and the generalizing woman reason is not a good reason. If you think they have given a good reason then name the post numbers and at least explain why they're good reasons. And I believe that ideas and concepts can be criticized but when your criticizing it give good reasons. Daniels is not the writer of the book, Soule is and he said it will have romance, drama, action, humor etc. We got maybe 10% knowledge about the book and all we're doing is complaining.

#49 Posted by RustyRoy (9233 posts) - - Show Bio

Most people are taking away from this that DC thinks woman must love romance.

I'm taking away from that DC thinks all men must hate romance.

1st of all DC didn't say that, Daniels did. 2ndly he didn't all, just a comparatively large number, which isn't entirely wrong.

#50 Posted by Icarusflies (12246 posts) - - Show Bio

@lykopis said:

Not impressed.

I don't want romance, I want quality writing about quality heroes.

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