Superman - Always sacrificing himself?

So me and my group for D&D use Superman as the definition of a good alignment. An argument came up today of whether or not Superman would always sacrifice himself to save another life. If an arch nemesis of his gave the ultimatum of killing himself in order to save a random person/people, would he?

Is there anything that happens in the comics to suggest he values his life over another (good or evil) life?

Our example was if Lex Luthor gave Superman the option to kill himself to save an innocent person, what would he do.

@lvenger@squalleon

He'd speedblitz him, of course.

Our situation was either A or B. Sacrifice our life, or let an innocent die. We were incapacitated.

He killed zod in man of steel which was bs and goes against everything superman stands for, I think regularly he would risk his life to save others. Though by now superman must know hes not going to die, so he'll be like screw it, I'll pretend to die, so you can live and we all live happily ever after...except for the billions who died on krypton, they will never be happy. the end!

@deadcool_xd: whatever happened to man of tomorrow, pocket universe Zod, imperiex

Why do people get upset about Man of Steel film? Superman doesn't kill but didn't really have alot of choice and it was only Zod. No big loss.

People get upset because Superman does not see things that way. Every life is precious to him.

@darthmummy: Yea as it is to every hero/soldier in comics ect.. but he wasn't left with much of a choice.

@guru_crack: I'm under the belief that Superman will kill if necessary. Look at Darkseid. Superman actually hates him with every fiber of his being. You think he wouldn't let Darkseid die if it came to that? Hell, if a portal opened up to a universe were Darkseid would die upon contact with the atmosphere, I guarantee you, Clark would shove him right inside.

@darthmummy: He's killed Zod in comics before, as well as Doomsday...

He kills when he thinks he has no other choice.

@aikey1: I don't think he would kill himself. I think Superman hates suicide as much as he hates murder. He would let Lex do what he has to do, but Lex would be in for the beating of his life.

@superguy1591: And this is why we have a league. Superman calls Flash to head over to wherever Lex has his hostage. Then Superman flicks Lex hard enough to knock him out.

@guardiandevil83: My point exactly, not alot of option left so he had to kill him.

I do think Superman would sacrifice his life for another.
I really can't get an example from the top of my head that puts Superman into a situation like that but Superman's personality,lore and morals are pretty much enough for me to reach a conclusion. When Superman killed Mr.Mxyzptlk in "Whatever happened to the man of tomorrow" he was so sick of himself because "Superman doesn't kill", that he took away his own powers as a punishement and retired. When Manchester Black made him see Lois dying in front of his eyes Superman didn't kill him. Now that situation may be different but it shows Superman's value for life.

When he killed Zod the audience was so infuriated that, the next writer(Jurgens) had to send him into an Exile into Space to redeem himself. And Doomsday wasn't sentient, he was mindless. He never even questioned not ending a killing machine. When Doomsday became sentient in Reign of Doomsdays Superman refused to kill him because now he actually lives.

Superman killing is a big thing that if writers aren't good enough and don't have the time they shouldn't tackle.

@squalleon: I'm not saying I want him to kill, I understand why people don't want him to kill, I just don't get upset when it happens.

I don't understand why people do got upset when he did in MOS when we know he's done it before. It's just weird to me. I thought Cavill emoted a Superman in agony over what he did.

Add Alan Moore to that list of people who made Superman kill in canon.

He's snap their neck.

@darthmummy said:

What is he Jesus?

Superman in MOS is a murderer. Not necessarily a bad thing, because he was justified, but he still murdered.

The problem with Superman murdering someone is he's suppose to be an icon, a symbol that people aspire to be. That he represents a hope for a better tomorrow. Him murdering someone is the exact opposite of that, solving our problems through murder.

Killing innocents in the crossfire, murdering his enemies, billions of dollars of property damage. Must suck to be a Superman fan.

The comics are simple the good wins and evil lose not amlet issue

@squalleon:

Doomsday was sentient.....being mindless doesn't mean he wasn't able to feel or react......

Also, Superman killed Imperiex....and Brainiac during OWAW

Anyways, to answer the OP, it's tough to say. I personally don't think he would just sacrifice himself on the spot. While he values lives, Superman knows that a villain willing to go that far won't just stop with him. He's able to see the bigger picture even if he values every life. He would let that person die, and then make sure to put the villain behind bars. I can't think of an exact story to reference to back this up, but just look at pretty much every world threatening situation he has been in. With his speed he could probably save every civilian from death, but he instead goes after the villain because he knows thats the best way to save lives.

That being said he would sacrifice himself in the act. Like, if that villain was going to kill a civilian and Superman ended up dying to same him/her. I could see him doing that. But just offing himself on the spot? Nah.

I appreciate all the help. It seems like being Superman-esque is pretty high standards to achieve, especially in a D&D world. Not killing ever (or at best, killing only when mass genocide is the other option) is extremely, extremely good.

@ximpossibrux: Batman killed multiple times in his movies but nobody bats an eye. Superman is hekd in a situation where its either an innocent family or a kryptonian threatning the world and everybody losses there mind.

Cause it's exactly the opposite of everything that is Superman.

MoS Superman was a glorified OC wearing a Superman costume, nothing about him screamed Clark or Kal.

Hancock was more inspiring, lol.

When Superman killed Mxyzptlk, the impact it had on him was sufficient to end his career. He retired to be with Lois, confident that the world would get along just fine without Superman, because there are many everyday heroes ready to follow his example and protect the Earth in his stead.

Man of Steel, meanwhile, presents Superman as a singularly messianic figure that the world physically cannot live without, rather than as any sort of inspiration to regular people. It also has him kill Zod at the beginning of his career, scream about it for a few seconds, snog Lois, troll the US military, then goof around at the Daily Planet instead of helping to rebuild the city.

Which version is more heroic?

Yeah but Moore then had Superman retire forever. When a character whose whole personality, ideals etc is about the value of life and hope, having him completely oppose that ideals by killing someone you basically failed to write that character because it is very difficult to write a redeeming story otherwise. Its like having Batman kill the father of a child in front of his eyes, just because he was a criminal.

Superman is the ultimate good guy, in my opinion. It's a big reason why I love the character, so yes, I would feel comfortable stating he would relinquish his own life to save another's. I will always view him like this.

Wasn't Imperiex just the embodiment of entropy? And if Superman knows anything is that Brainiac always returns.

To be honest, I really don't think Superman would let a person die so he can live. The "I do more good to the world so you have to die for me" is something that in my opinion goes against Superman's core, thats pure Luthor right there. Many stories have tackled how Superman prioterises people over defeating the villain, its one of his main weaknesses that villains exploit for quite some time, so I don't think you are correct there.

Yeah, IIRC, but he was still living. I don't think you can assume Superman knew Brainiac would return....

If i'm incorrect, we must be reading different comics. Superman doesn't save everybody. He doesn't always put the lives of a citizen over defeating the villain. Hell, now that I remember, he stayed by Lois' side during final crisis even though people were dying outside. You twisted what I meant as well. Superman wouldn't think "I can do more good to the world so you have to die for me", he would think, in this very hypothetical ultimatum, more along the lines of "If I die now, more innocents will just die later. I'm so sorry". What stories are these? In what stories has he ever been put in an ultimatum like this or saved every citizen in a world threatening situation at the expense of the villain getting away??

1. He doesn't save everybody but he tries hard too, another strong element in many of his stories.
2. Yes he does. Most recent example SM/WW 13
3. He always struggled with the balance between his personal life and his duty. Many stories showcase that like Kryptonite, Bittersweet etc.
4. If there is one think Superman comics have made clear, is that Superman thinks the world can live without him. I really believe that Superman would sacrifice himself. And I am definitely gonna check my library for examples.
5. Again, Sm/WW 13 but I am sure I can think of way more if I think about it a little longer.

1. Ok, agreed. I'm not disputing that.

2. No he doesn't. Using the n52 for example, look how many people died during the finale of doomed. Also, how does the flashback in SM/WW prove anything? He was still fighting off the Parademons...if his first and main objective were to save people he wouldn't have bothered fighting back. He also wouldn't have bothered fighting Darkseid because i'm sure there were more people trapped, hurt, or dying elsewhere.

3. This just proves my point more. It always confused me why people expect Superman to have this absolute moral code, yet still be human. It doesn't work both ways. As we see in final crisis, the life of lois is obviously more important to him than the lives of the people dying outside. Does that mean he doesn't care? No, absolutely not. He still cares very strongly for every life, but he does value some above the rest.

4. That's not the issue at hand here. The OP was asking whether Superman would allow a villain to back him into a corner and force him to take his own life in place of another. I don't think he will. And it's a completely different situation from Superman simply thinking the world can get on without him.

5. That flashback didn't prove anything imo

Edit: Wait, i'm pretty sure Superman killed Darkseid at the end of final crisis with his vibrational scream. Its a confusing book lol

2. I haven't read Doomed and I don't know what happened. How does it prove anything? Wonder Woman pretty much tells Superman stop prioritizing the people, the villian is still here messing with them, so take them out first and Superman disagrees. It pretty much debunks YOUR point that Superman goes for the bad-guy first so he can protect the people. If that isn't a perfect example then I don't know what it is because it is literally what we discussed here.

3. He is human but dying besides Lois and pretty much allow a villian to kill an innocent it is very different. Its who Superman is self-less.

4.Superman "killed" himself plently of times to save another or at least entered many near death situations without knowing if he will survive. Alan Moore's WHttMoT, Doomsday, All Star Superman, Kryptonite. Thats who he is.

5. Again it proves that your argument is wrong and believe me I can recall more examples now. One infamous one is Superman returns, another is Superman: Kryptonite were Superman enters plenty of near deaths senarios, without knowing if he will make it out alive, just to save a handful of people.

1. But......he was going for the bad guys....he was taking out parademons.....then he fought darkseid when we know there were still people in danger and/or injured. If he only prioritized saving people, he wouldn't bother to fight villains until he gets everyone safe. Superman always neutralizes the threat first because he knows that's the best way to save people. And i'm not saying he would ignore a person in immediate danger either. I think you're interpreting that page wrong.....WW wants Superman to ignore the citizens and fight through whereas Superman is protecting the citizens by fighting back.

2. What? I don't understand what you wrote...

3. No......completely different situations man. You're saying that Superman would literally commit suicide because a villain backed him into a corner by threatening the life of an innocent. He wouldn't. It's a completely different situation compared to the ones you mentioned, where he died saving humanity from the villain. In Alan Moores book he didn't kill himself to save anybody, he killed the villain and then took away his own powers in penance. Completely different. In Doomsday he died in battle saving people from doomsday. Still, completely different. In All-Star he sacrificed himself to re-ignite the sun (where he was already transforming anyways) to save the earth. Again, completely different. I don't remember reading Kryptonite, but i imagine that would be completely different too. There is no story where Superman allows a villain to push him into committing suicide even with innocents at stake.

4. No....it's completely different....

They don't call him boyscout for nothing