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#51 Posted by Extremis (3363 posts) - - Show Bio

@deaditegonzo:

Dark Knight Rises has been seen as an allegory for occupy wall street

It's funny you say that, because it's completely false. Sure, one can shoehorn such an allegory onto the DKR (and maybe it wouldn't be a stretch of the imagination), but Nolan himself has said that this interpretation never entered his mind. The movie was never intended as such. The intention was to finish what he started with Batman. The sad part is that he completely misrepresented the Batman mythos in the process.

Since you are not a Batman fan I am not surprised TDKR is your favorite Batman movie as, of all the trilogy, it strays most from the Batman mythos. It is not a movie for Batman fans, but rather an accessible post-9/11 action flick that appeals to the masses. As a comic book reader and fan of superheroes, I expect the same I want from all good movies (good writing, acting, direction), but also expect that they stay true to the characters. Nolans trilogy got further and further away from the latter, and because of this I find it leaves me wanting.

I am not alone in feeling that we still have yet to see the definitive portrayal of Batman on the big screen.

They are certainly darker than the Iron Man films, to argue otherwise is insane

I agree that Batman is a darker character in that he is cold, calculating and brooding. Gotham is a dark place. The films did represent his reclusive, obsessive nature even. But what you arent getting is that THIS darkness (which I have just described) is all tonal. TDK trilogy is NOT, however, any darker from a thematic standpoint than, say, Iron Man. And darker, in this sense, I think we can say translates to more mature or adult in nature. Now, they both explored adult themes. For example, Batman Begins and Iron Man both explored escalation as a theme. Escalation; This idea that the more advanced the military, police force, or superheroes get (from a weapons standpoint), the more advanced the resistance gets. TDK trilogy never fully explored it though. Only hinting at it at the end of BB. The Iron Man movies continued to explore this theme in the 2nd movie with Ivan Vanko coming out of the woodwork to challenge Iron Man on a national stage. This went to show Tony Stark that he now would always have new, stronger, more dangerous and advanced competition waiting in the wings. Such a theme is relevant to us now with all the WMDs popping up in countries across the globe and threatenting the existence of humanity as we know it. However, we see in TDK that this theme takes the back burner in favor of chronicling the rise of fall of District Attorney Harvey Dent and the battle for the soul of gotham. In this sense, TDK is really more of a good guy bad guys story at its heart, which could be likened to your Lethal Weapon reference.

Now, whichever story you prefer is up to you. It's obviously completely subjective as to which you enjoy more. But it's plain to see that Iron Man explored some mature themes all the same, with escalation as just one example. And in this case it actually explored its theme further. And, as ANOTHER reason, this could be why Iron Man is just as "great" franchise as TDK trilogy. Good movies explore their themes fully.

I think the Dark Knight are along the lines of Citizen Kane or Casablanca

You're entitled to believe that, and I would defend your right to feel that way to the death, but it's wrong either way.

and Marvel's offerings are more like your traditional action films, like Die Hard or Lethal Weapon, full of one liners, big time action, explosions, etc.


Yeah, and TDK movies weren't full of one-liners? Those jokes were just so bad that the punchlines haven't landed yet. I love Batsy, but he's just not known for his jokes.

I think some of those jokes from TDKR are still floating in space somewhere around Saturn by now.

And even if movies like the Avengers and the Iron Man movies weren't mature thematically (which they are), I could easily settle for them being like such classic entertainment as Raiders of the Lost Arc, especially in their rewatchablility (did I just make a word?). I'll watch Avengers 30 times for every time I watch a classic like Citizen Kane. But isn't that why we're comic fans?

I took my kids to see Avengers with me at the theater. We also watched all the Marvel Movies on Neflix to get amped.

By the way, THIS just makes you an awesome parent! Props, seriously.

#52 Posted by bob808 (6780 posts) - - Show Bio

Man of Steel

#53 Posted by The_Legendary_SuperSaiyan_Hulk (10730 posts) - - Show Bio

Gotta go with Iron Man 3, love seeing movies with Downey Jr. in it

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#54 Posted by deaditegonzo (3690 posts) - - Show Bio

@extremis: I appreciate your last line, thanks. I saw some kids at Dark Knight Rises and I was like, "What were their parents thinking."

But anyway, I think we just disagree. The question is which one we're hyped more for. I am more hyped for MoS, because to me, the Nolan-esque Super Hero films are something greater than just themepark rides, their this generations greatest cinematic accomplishment. And I hope MoS lives up to its previews, and that bar that, imho, has been set exclusively by the Dark Knight Movies.

The escalation theme is a good point to make, and it is interesting, but the fact so many large, important implications that never crossed the directors mind can be pulled from the Dark Knight all the more impressive. He made something landmark, that means different things to different people. I think, were we to ask professional film critics which was deeper, which one had a meatier premise, theyd agree with myself on the Dark Knight Trilogy as a whole. It doesnt make it objectively true, which I believe is the discussion you are trying to have (as there is no such thing as an objective person), it just means for whatever reason, the Bat Films hit home easier with more people.

That escalation premise you mentioned, other than the characters directly referencing it, which they kind of do, never felt meaningful to me in the Iron Man movies. I love Iron Man 1, because RDJ is smarmy and charming, because he effectively hits male and female fantasies alike, because you have a dude in a super suit beating the crap out of dudes with super suits. Its no coincidence that this new IM3 has been compared to the Batman movies, because this one seems to have taken on a much more serious tone.

Anyway, in simplest terms, the Dark Knight Movies affected my emotions, no Marvel film so far has. And its not a bad thing either, its like comparing steak and Cheeseburgers. I eat more cheeseburgers in the year than I could ever eat steak, and I frankly, crave cheeseburgers more often, but I can see that Steak is more complex than cheeseburgers. It all amounts to opinion, but from the reviews we've seen and everything, I have to think that Nolan captured something that impacted a lot of people similarly to myself.

Its weird, this board is the only place ive ever seen the Nolan films even remotely criticized. If its due to the lack of comic book accuracy, you have to remember, comic book fans arent the target audience, the general populace it. Also, whenever one goes to see an adaptation, they should put away all preconceptions, and judge the adaptation as its own self-contained entity, imo.

#55 Edited by Skyfire (752 posts) - - Show Bio

I'll probably enjoy Iron man more honestly.

#56 Edited by novi_homines (1338 posts) - - Show Bio

Ok, henceforth, lets squash this, "dc makes more serious movies" nonsense. Green Lantern, Jonah Hex, and Superman returns weren't in the least bit "serious". Let alone good. TDK trilogy isn't the only movies DC has made guys. Lol, people love to forget the others. X- Men First Class, and more importantly x-men 2 carried more of a profound emotional weight than any of the DC movies. And thats the big difference between DC and Marvel, in my opinion. DC can truly only make one type of movie good. a dark, brooding story with songs that have voilins and loud drums. Everything else, at least in my opinion, is bad. In the last decade, DC has put out 3 good movies, TDK trilogy, only one of which was fantastic, TDK. Marvel is well versed in both. They own the best large scale, comic booky movies (Avengers), some of the best more emotional movies (First Class, X2), as well as everything in between (Iron Man, Thor, etc). All of which are fantastic in the direction they choose. DC just can't seem to do this, they tried with Green Lantern, and it failed.

I sometimes feel as though people choose to gravitate towards DC movies to seem high class, or know what they're talking about. But when I asked them "why" its more mature, or deeper in emotional meaning, they don't have the ability to explain themselves with intelligence. And when I say DC movies, I say the dark knight trilogy because thats really the only ones that are REALLY good, imo. But I look at some scenes between magneto and proffessor X on the future of mutants in first class or in X2, and I say this is emotional stuff. But when thinking of scenes in TDK that were emotional, I just can't think of any. TDK, as well as the entire series was VERY well executed and had a really amazing story. But as far as emotional? I personally don't see it. People need to accept the reality of opinions.Someone differing from your opinion shouldn't result in an automatic argument. Nor should anyone phrase statements in ways that make anothers opinion seem wrong. Humans differ, its in our DNA.

Thor, is in my opinion, amazing. But many people think its average, how? For the life of me I can't seem to figure this out. Not enough hype, or awareness when it first came out, would be my guess. Which is a shame. Quality shouldn't be dictated on that. I went into full detail on the reasons why I thought it was amazing in another thread. I touched on the character development and its unique dynamic in this movie, the acting, as well as the casting. Check it out. It had one of the best acting, heartwrenching, and emotional scenes of all comic book movies. This is just MY personal opinion. And i'm sure you all have yours as well. Here is the scene i'm talking about.

#57 Edited by TheManInTheShoe (3878 posts) - - Show Bio

Iron Man 3, the music is perfect while I think the Man of Steel trailer is rather boring!

#58 Edited by BlueLantern1995 (2448 posts) - - Show Bio

Man of Steel. That last trailer brought my interest from none to lots and lots of some.

#59 Edited by Bruxae (14008 posts) - - Show Bio

Man of Steel, maybe it will be the first good superman movie.

#60 Posted by trebean (696 posts) - - Show Bio

@bruxae said:

Man of Steel, maybe it will be the first good superman movie.

The Donner Movies were kinda good..... in a kinda - campy sorta way (Watch Superman 2 The Donner Cut Edition, it's certainly less campy that the original)

#61 Posted by Jean199999 (548 posts) - - Show Bio

Iron Man, probably cause it comes out tomorrow and I'm pretty excited to see it...

Man of Steel is going to be awesome too, but Iron Man is already here, so the excitement is barely containable.

#62 Edited by SmashBrawler (5978 posts) - - Show Bio

Well, I'm not seeing Iron Man 3 anyway.

#63 Posted by NorrinBoltagonPrime21 (6313 posts) - - Show Bio

@deaditegonzo: again you seem ignore the facts of movies to fit your argument. Because green lantern and jonah hex werent good they are like marvel movies? you were just saying how good the marvel movies were but now they're bad because dc produced a few bombs which you say are "like marvel movies". i guess you cant dare say the same people who produced batman can produce bombs like green lantern. great argument, are you going to be any more ridiculous?

you keep mentioning the emotional tone of the batman trilogy acting like no other movie can match it but you pick and choose what you want to see from a movie. every movie has emotion, especially the marvel movies but you seem to ignore that from the movies and claim only batman can have the "emotional tone". this argument is just as bad saying the batman movies are for a mature audience only. there are still alot of kids watching and understanding what's going on in the movies and it is in no way too violent for them. this is just another weak argument people create to think there movie better.

please stop with the lies, you can try to differ yourself from the nolan hype and batman fanboyism but actions are louder than words and your actions are that of a batman fan and nolan hype.

if we do talk about it 20 years from now itll be how it wasnt as good as it was hyped to be during our time, its not in the league or star wars.

#64 Posted by deaditegonzo (3690 posts) - - Show Bio

@norrinboltagonprime21: That other poster and I were having a good discussion and you came in very worked up over nothing. I said multiple times its purely opinion. There are no "facts" when it comes to saying how much you like a movie, or how a movie makes you feel. I can tell youre a huge Marvel fan, and thats great, but that doesnt change my opinion or how I feel about the different movies.

And can I quote you as a reference the next time somebody calls me a Batman hater? LoL

#65 Edited by Extremis (3363 posts) - - Show Bio

@deaditegonzo:

You seem to bring up a lot that your liking a movie is purely subjective and can't be argued. No one is attacking your ability to like a movie, yet you seem to get very defensive about his. Such a thing can not be measured. What I am doing, though, is arguing about which movie is successful in its endeavors by using things we actually CAN measure. Things as simple as what happened in a movie and what themes it explored.

Beyond all the impossible acclaim you and others place on TDK trilogy, it is fairly simplistic and formulaic. In some instances, as I have noted previously, the trilogy abandons themes before even fully exploring them. Not to mention the numerous plot holes in, for instance, TDKR. I mean the whole police force just walks into a trap under the city, seriously? Basically the ENTIRE police force. When do they ever send the entire police force all willy nilly shoulder-to-shoulder down under the city without doing some intel or investigation first? The worst plot device is a police force that has a collective IQ equal to that of a 5 year old. In this case the police force was used as a device to quickly give Bane full reign over an enormous city.

Also, the overt submissiveness of the citizens of Gotham to their subjugation in TDKR is offensive to me as a person. Avengers did it better, with people who reacted more realistically. One man, representing a minority, even stood up and said he refused to be ruled by evil men.

Yes, people do tend to submit to authority rather easily, but in TDKR you begin to wonder whether ANY of these people are really worth saving as all of them are worthless for months until Ta-dah! Batman shows up (Also why, when his city was in total peril, did he take what mustve been hours to create a Bat symbol out of gasoline just so he could light it on fire? Oh, and then all of a sudden everyone springs in to action. Give me a break!)The people of Gotham are shown as worthless and its just not realistic. Because of this, I think the audience has no emotional investment in the outcome anymore.

Anyway, there's really no use in us continuing this if you are going to keep saying you like it and I wont change your mind as I am full aware of that now. However, if I pointed out some flaws in a movie you otherwise never heard criticism for, then I've done my job. Peace.

#66 Edited by deaditegonzo (3690 posts) - - Show Bio

@extremis: I pointed out a plot hole myself, in one of my first posts, to highlight my point that Nolan seemed to care a lot more about the feeling his movie conveyed, than checking stuff off on a list. I think its a good approach, but its not everyones cup of tea. Of course, there must be a reason Dark Knight is the highest rated super hero film of all time, and Batman has the highest box office of any one character.

I think, as a hardcore Marvel/ Iron Man fan, you walked into the Batman movies looking to criticize them, looking for flaws, whereas as I and the general, uninvested audience, just walked in looking to enjoy a specific story. This is why fanboyism, or listening to fanboys, is the worst thing that can happen to a movie adaptation. I like Iron Man even a little bit more than Bats in comic books, but since I dont really care for either, I just watched the movies for what they were, and now feel I got a whole lot more out of my experience for it.

The reason i keep bringing up the subjectivity factor, is because the Marvel fans (I havent noticed anyone else), keeps using phrases like "Its a fact", etc, when no its not a fact. You can have nearly identical movies, and one may work for nearly indescribable reasons while the other fails. Most people criticize Iron Man 2 as purely a feature length Avengers trailer, but thats just their opinion. Im sure there were people who hated Star Wars when it was released, and I remember distinctly a lot of people whining about LotR, a generally beloved movie, for differing from the books (WHERES TOM BOMBADIL!!!), there will always be these people, but LotR, like the Batman trilogy, hit an emotional chord with most folks.

You complain about hearing Marvel Movies called popcorn flicks all the time, but if you hear it all the time, that likely means theres something to it. For whatever reason, their themes and depth arent hitting home with a lot of people. I think part of it is, Batman wasnt just a comic book film, it was a comic book character in a more grounded reality, whereas the Marvel films are very "Comic Book-y", its a lot like Pixar vs Disney for me.

Lets talk about all the objectively absurd notions in Marvel Movies, if you really want to. Why did blowing up the Mother Ship just shut all the Chitauri down? Why didnt Cap set the ships course and then bail out with one of the flying missiles? Why did Thor suddenly have a change of heart? Because he wanted to sleep with Natalie Portman? Etc etc, those kinds of complaints are silly (nitpicking) if they dont take you out of the movie, and they never did (other than the Thor one I guess).

#67 Posted by judasnixon (6979 posts) - - Show Bio

#68 Edited by Night Thrasher (3705 posts) - - Show Bio

Iron Man 3 by a long shot. I want to see Man of Steel too, but IM3 is on my "must see list"

#69 Posted by Extremis (3363 posts) - - Show Bio

@extremis:

I think, as a hardcore Marvel/ Iron Man fan, you walked into the Batman movies looking to criticize them, looking for flaws, whereas as I and the general, uninvested audience, just walked in looking to enjoy a specific story. This is why fanboyism, or listening to fanboys, is the worst thing that can happen to a movie adaptation.

You couldn't be more wrong. As I stated to you previously I am Batman fan. My problem with the movie wasn't looking to criticize it when I went in. I was looking to enjoy it. And I totally did. I ate every bit of that movie up (TDKR) and thought it was a perfect trilogy. However, after having some distance from it I realize things upon second, 3rd, 4th, viewings that I missed. Much of this has to do with the absolute RIDICULOUS hype associated with said movie. The expectations were so high that there was no way an excited Batman fan could objectively pick apart that movie during the excitement of a midnight show. Upon further viewings though, it is apparent that it totally misrepresents the character of Batman and everything he stands for.

Btw, I feel like you have a hard time keeping up with this argument as you revert back to your fundamental worship of Nolan and his Batman movies as somehow being on par with Star Wars, Casablanca and Citizen Kane. It's actually laughable. It's impossible to have a debate with somehow who doesn't understand how to critique anything. You just regurgitate what you think others felt about the movies, so in turn it must be fact. Marvel films and Nolan's TDK films both have their detractors. You keep insisting that Batman resonated more with people and it is pointless as it actually could be argued that Avengers resonated more as it pulled in more money than any single Batman film to date. Not to mention it received near universal praise, while TDKR had more mixed reviews.

Why did blowing up the Mother Ship just shut all the Chitauri down?

IDK, probably because it worked when Will Smith did it in Independence Day?

Why didnt Cap set the ships course and then bail out with one of the flying missiles?

Did you watch the movie? He needed to make sure he landed it in an area that no one else would get hurt. You know, because Cap is a damn hero and all.

Why did Thor suddenly have a change of heart? Because he wanted to sleep with Natalie Portman? Etc etc,

lol what? I'm assuming by suddenly have a change of heart you mean that he became worthy to wield Mjolnir again? Once again, did you watch the movie? The whole movie chronicles a young brash Thor coming of age. You obviously weren't paying attention.

those kinds of complaints are silly (nitpicking) if they dont take you out of the movie, and they never did (other than the Thor one I guess).

None of those you said take you out of the movie as yours are the ones that are "nitpicky". Gotham's police force (thousands) walking unwittinly into a trap under the city is a blatantly terrible plot device, sorry. The things you mentioned, however, were just character transformations. They are what happen, you know, to progress a story. Without them, you have no STORY to begin with.

Forget this. My IQ is dropping everytime I continue this, which is really my own fault.

#70 Edited by deaditegonzo (3690 posts) - - Show Bio

@extremis:

Gotham's police force (thousands) walking unwittinly into a trap under the city is a blatantly terrible plot device, sorry.

Didnt affect me at all while I was watching it, just like apparently, Thor changing for no apparent reason didnt affect you. Seriously, what happened in that movie that made him mature? He fought some agents, and met Natalie Portman. It was a rushed, ABC sort of plot.

Did you watch the movie? He needed to make sure he landed it in an area that no one else would get hurt. You know, because Cap is a damn hero and all.

Uh, once it was over the North Pole, there was no one to get hurt, it could have crashed literally anywhere, i'd point you to the "How it Should Have Ended" parodying this fact, except youd say something along the lines of "Letting a cartoon create your opinion" or nonsense of the sort.

IDK, probably because it worked when Will Smith did it in Independence Day?

So, no real answer then? Btw, that movie is famous for being one of the most brainless, prototypical summer block busters of all time.

So here's where we get to the heart of it, and reveal the real problem. Youre a huge fanboy. Notice you get personally offended at the fact that, while I love Marvels movies, theyre just brainless themepark rides to me. Your so attached to the concept of the movies, you cannot even accept a subjective opinion, one that ive repeatedly said is just that, that sees your beloved films as something less than the "Dreaded Competition's (DC's)" Films.

I keep referencing those movies, because to me, all of the greatest movies of all time are more of a feeling than any set of data and values. How do I describe wonder to somebody who walked into the theater with a checklist? Especially when that someone basically admitted they were in awe of the movies as well, until they decided to dissect them because enjoying them was offensive to Joe Quesada I guess?

I can act like you are about any movie, for example, Star Wars A New Hope:

  • The acting was bad. Mark Hamill in particular was s***, and none of the real actors took the movie seriously. Most of the Brits on set thought it was a joke.
  • The Plot is derivative. Lucas literally made sure to put every major archetype into the movie. And whats more, it is a direct rip off of science fiction serials.
  • The dialogue is downright stupid in a lot of instances.
  • There are a lot of inane plot devices: There are no life forms aboard, dont bother shooting it. What, will we run out of Plasma Bullets?!

See, sitting back, nitpicking and acting superior means absolutely nothing, particularly on an internet forum. Millions walked out of Star Wars profoundly affected, and same with the Batman movies. Its fine that you didnt. It should also be fine that I did NOT walk out of any of the Marvel films the same way. What I have been saying, though, is that from what the general public is saying, my response to the Batman films isnt unique, that it impacted many people the same way, and it is currently widely considered the greatest Super Hero series ever.

Its funny that youve been complaining about the quality of my posts, as ive just been trying to be diplomatic. Its why ive tried so hard to point out that it is my personal opinion. But, if you want to keep posting your fanboy, raged out garbage, then I will be forced to shred every statement youve made as I have in this post. I know what you will come back with, once again you will point out the little flaws you saw in the Batman films. Once again, you will try to present your biased dissatisfaction as the objective viewpoint of there quality. Once again, you will state your opinions as if they are facts, and try to pass off your negative viewing experience as the one the majority of people shared. But honestly, dont waste your breathe, I think its pretty apparent to everyone exactly what you are.

http://oi47.tinypic.com/11ujek4.jpg

#71 Edited by Mega_spidey01 (3078 posts) - - Show Bio

i'll take my chances with man of steel hopefully, zack Synder doesn't disappointment.

#72 Posted by novi_homines (1338 posts) - - Show Bio

Opinions differ. Not everyone thinks the batman movies are the best comic book movies ever made. That shouldn't trigger an argument.

#73 Posted by Extremis (3363 posts) - - Show Bio

Anyway, much more excited for IM3. We'll see if MoS can live up to the hype. I hope it does as I'd like to see a Justice League movie at some point in the future.

#74 Posted by JamDamage (1118 posts) - - Show Bio

since Iron Man 3 is coming out in a few weeks I'm psyched about that, but after seeing the last trailor for MOS who isn't excited for that also. 1st come 1st serve tho.

#75 Posted by TheThe (1755 posts) - - Show Bio

Man of Steel. Snyder + Nolan = Promise of an epic win. I dont really care for Iron Man 3.

#76 Posted by TheVoiceOfReason (747 posts) - - Show Bio

Man of Steel has a lot of hype and the trailers looked decent but Iron Man 2 was not good at all but people have high hopes for Iron Man 3 so i don't know what to expect

#77 Posted by rasx (242 posts) - - Show Bio

Ironman 3 definetly, I didn't like the last Batman movie felt kinda boring, Tim Burtons Batman was the best.

#78 Posted by CODYSF (2053 posts) - - Show Bio

@thethe said:

Man of Steel. Snyder + Nolan = Promise of an epic win. I dont really care for Iron Man 3.

Man Of Steel trailer looks so much more promising then Iron Man 3

#79 Posted by NorrinBoltagonPrime21 (6313 posts) - - Show Bio

@extremis:

Im going to add that I hate Batman, so I didnt have anything invested going in to those movies. I dont like Iron Man either though. Love Cap, but his movie was Marvel Studios worst IMO.

please, you made this too easy.

what grinds my gears is the ignorance, stupidity and extreme fanboyism in people, you

#80 Posted by deaditegonzo (3690 posts) - - Show Bio

@deaditegonzo said:

@extremis:

Im going to add that I hate Batman, so I didnt have anything invested going in to those movies. I dont like Iron Man either though. Love Cap, but his movie was Marvel Studios worst IMO.

please, you made this too easy.

what grinds my gears is the ignorance, stupidity and extreme fanboyism in people, you

Your reply doesnt make sense. What was easy? I feel like you missed a lot of words in your post.