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#1 Edited by jointron33 (1902 posts) - - Show Bio

It seems that DC's "experiment" with using the Wildstorm characters has about dried up, and DC has nothing to show for it. None of the characters were integrated well, and many whose books were cancelled are now long forgotten. Looks like being created by Jim Lee doesn't save you from obscurity. Now you feel what Milestone characters feel!

#2 Posted by The Stegman (24652 posts) - - Show Bio

DC tried, blame the readers for not caring enough to buy the books.

#3 Posted by BR_Havoc (1307 posts) - - Show Bio

In all honesty DC has stopped trying with a lot of things lately. We will soon see less books like Dial H or I Vampire and the companies line up will just be made up of Batman books or anything related to the big two (Batman and Superman). They did a really poor job with adding any of the wildstorm characters so it does not surprise me that they will fade to obscurity remember Jim Lee may be a good artist but he is a HORRIBLE business man.

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#4 Posted by RulerOfThisUniverse (6350 posts) - - Show Bio

@br_havoc: DC cancels what doesn't sell. It doesn't really make sense to blame the cancellations on them.

#5 Edited by RedLantern23 (884 posts) - - Show Bio

@rulerofthisuniverse: I second this. If a title is selling poorly, what are they supposed to do? Just keep putting it out for the hell of it?

#6 Posted by ARMIV2 (8591 posts) - - Show Bio

To be honest I kinda forgot that they were there now. The one guy I can really only remember doing something is Helspont, and that's because they tied him in with Superman.

And for the longest time I thought Pandora was Zealot. Yes, I am that disconnected.

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#7 Posted by Squalleon (4626 posts) - - Show Bio

DC tried, blame the readers for not caring enough to buy the books.

This.

#8 Posted by Durakken (1593 posts) - - Show Bio

Actually more often than not the books they canceled have not been the bottom book as they should be or the ill performing for their target books. They've been fairly well received books that have been selling on the high end of where they ought to be.

Some books were also canceled just as they started to work (Static) and should never have been given a shot in the first place (OMAC). It makes no sense to cancel most of the books they've canceled and I wouldn't expect a lot of the books they've canceled get beyond the 35th place in sales. The books you should cancel are those you expect to pull in 60k to 100k sales and only pull in 40k or books that should bring in 30-60k and only bring in 20k. Anying doing less than or around 10k is understandable because 10k is the baseline order for a new book. If you have a new idea, toss that in there.

I personally don't understand why they don't do a Jump style mag that would allow people to follow heroes that can't sell well on their own, but still have a following

#9 Posted by ARMIV2 (8591 posts) - - Show Bio

@durakken said:

Actually more often than not the books they canceled have not been the bottom book as they should be or the ill performing for their target books. They've been fairly well received books that have been selling on the high end of where they ought to be.

Some books were also canceled just as they started to work (Static) and should never have been given a shot in the first place (OMAC). It makes no sense to cancel most of the books they've canceled and I wouldn't expect a lot of the books they've canceled get beyond the 35th place in sales. The books you should cancel are those you expect to pull in 60k to 100k sales and only pull in 40k or books that should bring in 30-60k and only bring in 20k. Anying doing less than or around 10k is understandable because 10k is the baseline order for a new book. If you have a new idea, toss that in there.

I personally don't understand why they don't do a Jump style mag that would allow people to follow heroes that can't sell well on their own, but still have a following

A Jump mag like Shonen Jump? But for DC comics?

...

Holey crap...that's...

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#10 Posted by The Stegman (24652 posts) - - Show Bio

@durakken: The tried DC Universe Presents, which showcases lesser known heroes that might not be able to hold titles.

#11 Posted by Durakken (1593 posts) - - Show Bio

@the_stegman said:

@durakken: The tried DC Universe Presents, which showcases lesser known heroes that might not be able to hold titles.

DC Presents is not what I'm talking about. In DC presents you get 1 story that spans 4 to 6 issues and costs like $3. I'm talking something like a 200 pg black white book for $10-20 that has 10-20 series in it. If a series gets popular you shift it up to solo books. If it's popularity goes down you can shift how much space it has in the down to like 8 pages. As popularity rises, the position in the mag, how many color pages it gets, and how many pages it gets changes. If a series is popular but not enough to get a solo series then you can also have those series collected into what are called tankouban or TPBs.

With this you have writers and artists that can filter through the system getting good before they get on solo books and you have lots of characters and stories that you can experiment with and cross over with to draw from. It's also cheaper because you can have less experienced people come on and you can use cheaper paper, ink, and don't have to pay for colors.

The second arc in DC Presents would work well for an 8pg story series. Phantom Stranger would work better in this type of medium as might Blue Beetle, Booster Gold, Static, and Larfleeze, Demon Knights and I, Vampire could be put in this as could Man of War and Black Hawks. That's 10 titles that would work extremely well in a format like this and I'm sure other people could think of 10+ more such as Grifter. Katana, that Green Team and The Movement books.

You could also do 3 different jump books 1 for titles that can't really work solo, 1 for Pre-Flashpoint DC, 1 for Batman Beyond stuffs.

You wouldn't cut into your profits, but you would be expanding your market by catering to more audiences and you set up a clear prestige system where by books and creators that are good move up or down the latter and you are pretty much guaranteed that those prestige solo books are worth the money because only those books that are really liked by fans and those creators that are really liked and have proven themselves get to that level, but at the same time you are cultivating a pool of talent and properties that means you have a clear pathway for those who want to try their hand at this without risk to DC and having this would keep things having a fresh and in touch feel, because even though those solo titles would still be like they are today, good creators could see what is popular in the jump mags and so you have that research funneling up which means standard comics become better... and not to mention all the IP rights and how that would effect movies and such...

The reason why DC and Marvel are somewhat stale is because they don't have good creator turn over nor do they new ideas coming in, but really DC and Marvel are prestigious enough that if you presented people with the opportunity to get their idea turned into something a lot of people would jump on board if the terms were more clearly spelled out and people were treated with more respect which could be done with a Jump style book because 1 or 2 new ideas here are there by no name people isn't going to cost them a fortune and you have a built in audience.

#12 Edited by Cezar_TheScribe (2615 posts) - - Show Bio

Wildstorm belongs in the Image Universe. Jim Lee seems greedy.

DC should sell Wildstorm back to Image.

How DC Comics Killed Wildstorm

This is like Marvel buying and killing the Ultraverse. Marvel and DC like to kill off their competitors.

#13 Posted by Chaos Prime (10857 posts) - - Show Bio

Another Golden opportunity missed imo.

Did they try hard enough?

#14 Edited by MaccyD (4177 posts) - - Show Bio

@durakken: I can't see DC trying something that different, especially if it's associated with Manga. It sounds like an anthology series which is unlike DC. As good as it sounds, a "double" series similar to Marvel's early mags such as Strange Tales, Tales of Suspense and Tales to Astonish might be the closest we could hope for.

Stormwatch seemed to do alright.

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#15 Posted by russellmania77 (15524 posts) - - Show Bio

meh fudge wildstorm

#16 Edited by BR_Havoc (1307 posts) - - Show Bio

@rulerofthisuniverse: What I meant by that is they need to attempt to get others to read them. Look at Dial H if DC was smart they might of had the dial show up in a higher selling title that lead into Dial H giving it a larger fan base and a better shot to succeed. Or another option would be to have a big time character show up in the new series within the first few issues.

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#17 Posted by DEGRAAF (7887 posts) - - Show Bio

While i feel like they did a piss poor job at integrating the Wildstorm character the characters they did integrate didnt do well. I think they could have tried harder and with a larger variety but hopefully a writer will come in and start picking Wildstorm characters from obscurity to be in different comics. If they really wanted to make it work they would have done what Uncanny Avengers did and merged teams. While the JL could have still been started by the original 5, when they expanded (while i liked how they did it) could have had Wildstorm characters to heed the call for assistance.

#18 Edited by RazzaTazz (9647 posts) - - Show Bio

I think the characters will pop up now and then. it is hard to say though, and maybe analogous to the Charlton characters. After buying them DC eventually made something big out of Captain Atom and the Question, though it took some time.

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#19 Posted by The Stegman (24652 posts) - - Show Bio

@durakken: That's actually a pretty good idea, something like DC Showcase only with modern stories.

#20 Posted by Billy Batson (58070 posts) - - Show Bio

Wildstorm works better in its own universe and there isn't much you can do it with anymore.

All the good stuff that came from there was when creators tried hard with company owned stuff with a lot of freedom and nowadays they do it on their own creator-owned works.

BB

#21 Posted by Jonny_Anonymous (33631 posts) - - Show Bio

Um Stormwatch is still a book you guys.

#22 Posted by RustyRoy (12812 posts) - - Show Bio

DC tried, blame the readers for not caring enough to buy the books.

This

#23 Edited by WaveMotionCannon (5467 posts) - - Show Bio

DC halfassed the books then blamed it on sales.

#24 Posted by Strider92 (16613 posts) - - Show Bio

Wait that was them actually trying?

#25 Posted by theTimeStreamer (2841 posts) - - Show Bio
#26 Posted by Cezar_TheScribe (2615 posts) - - Show Bio
#27 Edited by RulerOfThisUniverse (6350 posts) - - Show Bio

@br_havoc: Honestly, I thought that books like Dial H were doomed from the start. There's two things that make books sell: Popular characters and phenomenal writing, but Dial H had neither. Those alternatives you mentioned could work, but in DC's eyes they're probably books that deserve that kind of treatment far more. Anyway, DC replaced the cancelled books with books such as Batman Inc, Earth 2, Talon, Phantom Stranger, Pandora, Superman Unchained, and Batman/Superman, far better written books that sell much more.

#28 Posted by ViperKing (422 posts) - - Show Bio

I honestly hope they will continue trying with WildStorm in the New 52 but it is unlikely. WildStorm titles simply haven't been adequate in sales for DC. In DC, if the title sells well, allow it to keep progressing. If it doesn't sell well, cancel it for the next wave. That is why Superman, Batman, and Green Lantern titles haven't been cancelled in the New 52, excluding Batman Incorporated.

#29 Posted by Jonny_Anonymous (33631 posts) - - Show Bio
#30 Edited by WaveMotionCannon (5467 posts) - - Show Bio
#31 Posted by DoomDoomDoom (4249 posts) - - Show Bio

Um Stormwatch is still a book you guys.

Exactly what I was thinking reading through this thread.

#32 Posted by blkson (785 posts) - - Show Bio

@jonny_anonymous said:

Um Stormwatch is still a book you guys.

Exactly what I was thinking reading through this thread.

Its DC's lowest selling book too.

#33 Posted by knighthood (1693 posts) - - Show Bio

DC tried, blame the readers for not caring enough to buy the books.

Oh hell, no. Blame DC for f*cking up our favorite characters. They can't expect us to enjoy that garbage they put out.

#34 Posted by sagejonathan (1960 posts) - - Show Bio

I forgot DC owned Wildstorm up until just now.

#35 Edited by knighthood (1693 posts) - - Show Bio
#36 Posted by gunmetalgrey (1270 posts) - - Show Bio

They were trying?

#37 Edited by Havenless (1350 posts) - - Show Bio

What does Marvel do with Angela? Immediately introduce her in an Avengers crossover event and then have her as a reoccurring character in GoTG.

How many times did Wildstorm appear in Batman books? What major arcs were they involved in? How many are card carrying members of JL or JS? How many have even met the JL?

If you want a character to be popular, you need to keep forcefeeding them in popular books. It's not as important that you do or don't like Angela, as long as you know she's there. I also forgot that DC owned Wildstorm.

#38 Edited by DoomDoomDoom (4249 posts) - - Show Bio

@blkson said:

@doomdoomdoom said:

@jonny_anonymous said:

Um Stormwatch is still a book you guys.

Exactly what I was thinking reading through this thread.

Its DC's lowest selling book too.

Can't say I'm surprised...It's actually gotten worse since Starlin's takeover.

#39 Posted by BR_Havoc (1307 posts) - - Show Bio

@rulerofthisuniverse: That is your opinion on the matter and that is fine. Dial H was critically acclaimed and is the best book DC has in my opinion. The biggest problem was DC had no idea how to market them, Books like Dial or Demon Knight or I Vampire are perfect vertigo titles but DC refuses to use that so they were forced into the new 52 and were never given a proper shot.

Now I do not agree with you that the books that replaced them are better written because I do not feel that is the case at all. Many of those titles are just marque characters that sell and the writers try nothing new with them its the same old stuff.

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#40 Edited by blkson (785 posts) - - Show Bio

@br_havoc said:

@rulerofthisuniverse: That is your opinion on the matter and that is fine. Dial H was critically acclaimed and is the best book DC has in my opinion. The biggest problem was DC had no idea how to market them, Books like Dial or Demon Knight or I Vampire are perfect vertigo titles but DC refuses to use that so they were forced into the new 52 and were never given a proper shot.

Now I do not agree with you that the books that replaced them are better written because I do not feel that is the case at all. Many of those titles are just marque characters that sell and the writers try nothing new with them its the same old stuff.

How would they market them? I often see comments saying DC doesn't market books Dial, I Vampire ect. So what particularity are somethings that they should've done different?

#41 Edited by The_Tree (7525 posts) - - Show Bio

It was a poor attempt by DC.

I think canceling Team 7 and allowing Starlin to write Stormwatch has put the final nail in the coffin. Putting Starlin on was the worst offense, sure Stormwatch wasn't that great, but erasing the cast and basically getting rid of everything that was done for the past 18 issues was ridiculous.

The only hope DC has of saving the semi-untarnished WS characters is to make a book (WildCATs preferably) with an A-list creative team. Maybe get Jim Lee for a bit.

#42 Posted by BR_Havoc (1307 posts) - - Show Bio

@blkson said:

@br_havoc said:

@rulerofthisuniverse: That is your opinion on the matter and that is fine. Dial H was critically acclaimed and is the best book DC has in my opinion. The biggest problem was DC had no idea how to market them, Books like Dial or Demon Knight or I Vampire are perfect vertigo titles but DC refuses to use that so they were forced into the new 52 and were never given a proper shot.

Now I do not agree with you that the books that replaced them are better written because I do not feel that is the case at all. Many of those titles are just marque characters that sell and the writers try nothing new with them its the same old stuff.

How would they market them? I often see comments saying DC doesn't market books Dial, I Vampire ect. So what particularity are somethings that they should've done different?

A book like Dial H would of worked well if say DC brought it out of an event where the Dial shows up and is a focal piece adding public interest. If they did not want to do that why not do what you did with Talon and have it first show up in another book say Superman and come from the pages. One other way to market them is within the first few issues have a big time character show up.

What DC did was throw them out in the deep end with nothing and then hoped they would float. Books like Dial and I Vampire were better suited to be Vertigo titles but I am not surprised to say Didio and company over looked that chance just so they could have 52 books being published.

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#43 Posted by DoomDoomDoom (4249 posts) - - Show Bio

@the_tree said:

It was a poor attempt by DC.

I think canceling Team 7 and allowing Starlin to write Stormwatch has put the final nail in the coffin. Putting Starlin on was the worst offense, sure Stormwatch wasn't that great, but erasing the cast and basically getting rid of everything that was done for the past 18 issues was ridiculous.

The only hope DC has of saving the semi-untarnished WS characters is to make a book (WildCATs preferably) with an A-list creative team. Maybe get Jim Lee for a bit.

I could have accepted the original Stormwatch being erased and replaced with more interesting versions of themselves but it just didn't happen that way. First, we lose Hawksmoor (who didn't get much attention to begin with). Second, the Midnighter and Apollo relationship just seems dull now. I'm giving this title it's final chance tomorrow and cutting it if things don't pick up.

#44 Posted by RulerOfThisUniverse (6350 posts) - - Show Bio

@br_havoc: I actually never read Dial H (just not my kind of book) but thought it was getting mediocre reviews. Was I incorrect?

#45 Posted by Spawn92 (284 posts) - - Show Bio

I loved Wildstorm back in the day (especially Eye of the Storm). Some of my favourite comics of all time come from Wildstorm. But I think it's just time for DC to kill it softly and stop trying to integrate the characters into the newU. THere's obviously something thats just not working, and I think it would be in DCs best interest to wait a few years and bring back WildStorm as it's own imprint.

#46 Edited by BR_Havoc (1307 posts) - - Show Bio

@rulerofthisuniverse: Most of the reviews I see are rather high, I do not think comic vine ever reviewed an issue (which does not help get the word out) but CBR generally gave it positive reviews.

Also I do recommend you check out the book in a trade or something it was great and had one thing most of the new 52 books lack and that humor and a sense of fun.

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#47 Edited by RulerOfThisUniverse (6350 posts) - - Show Bio

@br_havoc: IGN (I have no preferences to them, it was just the first result when I looked up Dial H #1 Review) gave #1 a 7.5 with the best issue getting a 9.2 and the worst getting a 4. Most of them are in the 6-8 range though, which from IGN standards is Okay-Great. Haven't checked out other reviewers yet, though.

#48 Edited by Billy Batson (58070 posts) - - Show Bio

@br_havoc said:

@rulerofthisuniverse: Most of the reviews I see are rather high, I do not think comic vine ever reviewed an issue (which does not help get the word out) but CBR generally gave it positive reviews.

Also I do recommend you check out the book in a trade or something it was great and had one thing most of the new 52 books lack and that humor and a sense of fun.

G-Man reviewed the first issue.

@br_havoc: IGN (I have no preferences to them, it was just the first result when I looked up Dial H #1 Review) gave #1 a 7.5 with the best issue getting a 9.2 and the worst getting a 4. Most of them are in the 6-8 range though, which from IGN standards is Okay-Great. Haven't checked out other reviewers yet, though.

IGN lost any of their credibility by giving Batman #17 a 10.

Dial H was one of the most acclaimed comics and I've seen constantly people saying it's the best New 52 series or at least in the very top.

BB

#49 Posted by blkson (785 posts) - - Show Bio

@br_havoc said:

@blkson said:

@br_havoc said:

@rulerofthisuniverse: That is your opinion on the matter and that is fine. Dial H was critically acclaimed and is the best book DC has in my opinion. The biggest problem was DC had no idea how to market them, Books like Dial or Demon Knight or I Vampire are perfect vertigo titles but DC refuses to use that so they were forced into the new 52 and were never given a proper shot.

Now I do not agree with you that the books that replaced them are better written because I do not feel that is the case at all. Many of those titles are just marque characters that sell and the writers try nothing new with them its the same old stuff.

How would they market them? I often see comments saying DC doesn't market books Dial, I Vampire ect. So what particularity are somethings that they should've done different?

A book like Dial H would of worked well if say DC brought it out of an event where the Dial shows up and is a focal piece adding public interest. If they did not want to do that why not do what you did with Talon and have it first show up in another book say Superman and come from the pages. One other way to market them is within the first few issues have a big time character show up.

What DC did was throw them out in the deep end with nothing and then hoped they would float. Books like Dial and I Vampire were better suited to be Vertigo titles but I am not surprised to say Didio and company over looked that chance just so they could have 52 books being published.

I most certainly agree with the bold. They did that with a lot of books.

#50 Edited by RulerOfThisUniverse (6350 posts) - - Show Bio

@billy_batson: I haven't read Batman #17 because I haven't entirely caught up on the New 52 (I've read up to Batman #7) but Comic Vine gave it a 5/5, right? Anyway, everyone has a different opinion and it was probably a different reviewer than that Dial H review. And please don't spoil anything.