Roshi's moon busting feat...an outlier?

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Blade_R

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#1  Edited By Blade_R

I never thought so, but I recently read some arguments as to why some people think it is.

The main argument I see is that since King Piccolo and Piccolo Jr. (Who are stronger than Roshi) did not show anywhere near moon level destruction Roshi's moon feat is an outlier. Idk I always thought King Piccolo and Piccolo Jr. (DB) could blow up the moon if they actually wanted to, but the counter is that King Piccolo and Jr. both went all out against Goku and had to reason to hold back or worry about AOE, so they should have done at least moon level damage to the Earth.

Thoughts?

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DBVSE7

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Just because A is stronger than B that doesn't mean B can't do C because A didn't show the ability to accomplish C.

Roshis feat is legit.

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russellmania77

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Blade_R

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@dbvse7:

Lol try telling the folks over at AnimeVice that. I was saying I always thought it was legit and there really wasn't anything unbelievable about it, but apparently because Tao, Tien, King Piccolo, and Jr. didn't show anything near that, Tao was defeated by a grenade, and because Roshi said he couldn't defeat the RR Army by himself, its total BS and is to be ignored lol

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DBVSE7

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@blade_r: I've seen a lot of about AVs thoughts about DBZ.. this is the first time I've seen Roshis feat being questioned on the vine though.

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Blade_R

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@dbvse7 said:

@blade_r: I've seen a lot of about AVs thoughts about DBZ.. this is the first time I've seen Roshis feat being questioned on the vine though.

I have never even thought about it being an outlier before, I always thought it was generally accepted as legit, until I was on AV not too long ago, so I thought it would be interesting to see what CV'S DB fans think. I still don't think it's an outlier though lol

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deactivated-627010180bd2d

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Typical Dragonball inconsistency.

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BlackWind

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I personally think it is. DKP's Destructive Wave at full power was about a city buster. You don't just go from city to moon level with a weaker character.

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DeathpooltheT1000

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There was a thing, Roshi used a lot of his power to destroy the moon.

Also there was no reason why King Piccolo could try to do this.

People has to remember, that every time something like this happened later in the show, it looks the character that did it, didnt need to use too much of their power.

Freezer was tired after a fight and destroy Namek without a problem.

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Mike_Fowler

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People just forget this about that scene

Roshi

--Was at MAX power.

--Was using an amplified attack

--Was the inventor of the Kamehameha, which his student could use to multiply his PL by 2.22

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PrinceAragorn1

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#12  Edited By PrinceAragorn1

@blade_r: There are many statements and feats on similar level..

One: roshi's moonbust.

Two: King piccolo saying he will take out 1/43rd of earth every year- he did not, because he wanted to. In fact, he also said he can destroy the world if he wanted to.

Three: Piccolo taking out the moon casually.

Four: Nappa's casual moon sized blast.

Yes, these characters at different power levels, but it substantiates that the feat is not impossible.

Tao dying to the granade is like surfer and black panther.

Dragonball characters focus attacking power on the enemy, not on the surroundings.

Besides, roshi's feat is not only on panel, but it is mentioned later in the series and backed by guidebook..

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DarthVxder

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@princearagorn1: I agree with everything you said and Roshis feat is legit but when has it been stated that they worry about AOE or is it just another fan made excuse for DBZ vs arguments?

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PrinceAragorn1

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@darthvxder: If I recall correctly, kamehameha itself is a technique that focuses ki, so we know it can be focused. I'll look for the scan when I can access a computer.

Either way, it's pretty much common sense when reading the manga.

For example:

Goku's kamehameha stalemated roshi's and his super kamehameha was said to be 'more powerful version of the one that destroyed the moon' - yet the blast was not even city sized.

Piccolo easily took out the moon, yet his attacks against saiyans even after powering up were much smaller.

Nappa's blast when he wanted to cause destruction massive compared to his attacks against z fighters. Or when he used the exact same technique against goku after powering up.

Form 1 frieza casually obliterated vegeta (the planet), but his blasts against z fighters were nowhere near that size...

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Mike_Fowler

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@darthvxder: vegeta flat out says during the fight with 18 that if he really let's loose, he'll destroy the planet

He said this after trying to kill 18 with a blast and only destroying a truck

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Blade_R

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@blade_r: There are many statements and feats on similar level..

One: roshi's moonbust.

Two: King piccolo saying he will take out 1/43rd of earth every year- he did not, because he wanted to. In fact, he also said he can destroy the world if he wanted to.

Three: Piccolo taking out the moon casually.

Four: Nappa's casual moon sized blast.

Yes, these characters at different power levels, but it substantiates that the feat is not impossible.

Tao dying to the granade is like surfer and black panther.

Dragonball characters focus attacking power on the enemy, not on the surroundings.

Besides, roshi's feat is not only on panel, but it is mentioned later in the series and backed by guidebook..

Yeah I know dude lol I pretty much made this to see what the majority over here think compared to the people over at AV. I have always accepted the feat and had never really seen it be questioned before, until I went over to animevice a few a days ago lol

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PrinceAragorn1

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@blade_r: eh, people can disregard they don't like.. Very few even read the series in question.

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DarthVxder

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@dbzk1999: Why would characters like Frieza, Cell, Androids or Buus hold back? I get that the Z warriors would hold back and take the fight somewhere safer but to apply this to the villains is ridiculous. Especially Buu since they were just plain out evil and the only one who happened to be an actual planet buster without having to charge up a blast sinnce it wasnt capable with there current PL.

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DarthVxder

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#19  Edited By DarthVxder

@princearagorn1: I get what youre saying but is there a possibility that they just use less powerfull attacks in combat? I know about Kamehameha since it is different to a ki blast and more like a beam. I mean think about it.

Anyways isnt it wrong to powerscale/guess on how much they can do instead of just using feats from the manga and movie? DBZ characters are high tier with their manga feats alone but some people arent happy with there character being powerhouses so they want them to be solar system ot galaxy level.

Im sure youre not one of those people but whats your stand on it?

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micah007123

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@dbzk1999: Why would characters like Frieza, Cell, Androids or Buus hold back? I get that the Z warriors would hold back and take the fight somewhere safer but to apply this to the villains is ridiculous. Especially Buu since they were just plain out evil and the only one who happened to be an actual planet buster without having to charge up a blast sinnce it wasnt capable with there current PL.

I don't know why this is a question. If they cut loose the earth would literally be destroyed during every major fight in DBZ, and that would not make for an interesting series if the earth is always being blown up LOL.

However to go into more detail Freiza usually holds back because of his arrogance and the fact that he usually never needed to go past his weak (in comparison) first form to completely maim someone. Cell doesn't care about world domination, he just wants to be perfect and to have a chance to show off......hence why he let the Z-fighters escape instead of killing them all and hosted the Cell Games. The Androids are the same, the main timeline one's aren't really evil they are more akin to just having fun and being teenagers in a sense..... and their goal is to kill Goku but that's about it. Buu depending upon what stage your talking about Fat Buu is child-like and playful who after being taught a lesson in humanity by Hercule saw the importance of not destroying for fun or killing at random. Super Buu was basically Perfect Cell again and suffered from his problems mentioned previously, and Kid Buu is really the only villain who started all out and continued to go all out. He tried to destroy earth the first chance he got, and busted numerous planets across the galaxy for sport.

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Blade_R

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@princearagorn1:

I think there was some bias/lowballing going on in that thread, it was a DBZ vs Naruto thread after all lol

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DarthVxder

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@micah: So when Cell saw Gohan was stronger than him he didnt go all out? The answer is yes and no DBZ character except for Kid Buu could destroy the earth with a single ki blast without having to charge it up or destabalize the core until BOG in which Goku we were introduced to Bills and Whis.

You say its PIS, I say they never showed that kind of power. Remember they can multiply their power various times by charging up there attack but that isnt practical in a fight. You can speculate on reasons all you want but the matter is that they never showed that level of power in combat and shouldnt even be considered in a debate.

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micah007123

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#23  Edited By micah007123

@darthvxder said:

@micah: So when Cell saw Gohan was stronger than him he didnt go all out? The answer is yes and no DBZ character except for Kid Buu could destroy the earth with a single ki blast without having to charge it up or destabalize the core until BOG in which Goku we were introduced to Bills and Whis.

You say its PIS, I say they never showed that kind of power. Remember they can multiply their power various times by charging up there attack but that isnt practical in a fight. You can speculate on reasons all you want but the matter is that they never showed that level of power in combat and shouldnt even be considered in a debate.

Cell did go all out and attempted to destroy the earth with a blast, which Gohan stopped. As for destabilization Frieza himself could destroy a planet with one attack with the flick of his finger. He never destabilized the core, the only time that happened was when by his own admission he held back too much and underestimated his injuries....and as such only destabilized the core with his shot. You could argue he had to charge up when he destroyed Planet Vegeta, however I say he didn't since he was literally not even trying. Also Cell could also bust a planet with a charged up Kamehameha, and he did not need to destabilize the core. As it was stated just because he never destroyed the planet with a single Ki Blast doesn't mean he can't do it. Even non-canon Broly could destroy entire worlds with simple Ki Blast.

I say it's PIS and the characters agree with me. They have even admitted to this fact several times, Vegeta flat out admits during his fight with 18 that if he didn't hold back the earth would be destroyed. Heck during Goku and Vegeta's rematch their Ki Blast were causing above average destruction, and that's perfectly practical during a fight. So they have shown that level of power before, and as such will be considered in a debate.

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flashback0180

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no its not a outliner. It's just favorable thinking that people fixated upon. It's also called low balling.

Roshi had no power left after that attack.

We never saw anyone apart from tien go all out in one attack in the series.

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DarthVxder

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@micah: AS for Broly, you said it yourself hes not cannon and neither are the feats from the movie. Also Vegeta was just being cocky or the androids have the durability of a truck lol. Vegeta says hes going to kill her and then proceeds to blow up a truck but nothing else. They see hes stronger than the reports but still proceeds to cubstomp him. If youre telling me that the show is just all of them holding back then it would make no sense. Why would Vegeta hold back against the androids once he sees theyre stronger or against Cell? or against the Buus? They can say all they want but if you really beleive they hold back when theyre already losing then thats just ridiculous.

If you like to have debates while speculating to your liking on how powerfull characters are then thats just not my style. They have never showed that power in combat unless they charge up. If you could find me a scan of them blowing up a planet casually then it would be appreciated.

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micah007123

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#26  Edited By micah007123

@darthvxder said:

@micah: AS for Broly, you said it yourself hes not cannon and neither are the feats from the movie. Also Vegeta was just being cocky or the androids have the durability of a truck lol. Vegeta says hes going to kill her and then proceeds to blow up a truck but nothing else. They see hes stronger than the reports but still proceeds to cubstomp him. If youre telling me that the show is just all of them holding back then it would make no sense. Why would Vegeta hold back against the androids once he sees theyre stronger or against Cell? or against the Buus? They can say all they want but if you really beleive they hold back when theyre already losing then thats just ridiculous.

If you like to have debates while speculating to your liking on how powerfull characters are then thats just not my style. They have never showed that power in combat unless they charge up. If you could find me a scan of them blowing up a planet casually then it would be appreciated.

You say Vegeta is getting cocky, I say he was telling the truth see how that works :). Once again what's so hard about accepting them all holding back most of the time. Goku even stated that he's fearful of going all out because of the damage he could do. Vegeta never held back against the androids when he began to loose, obviously he ramped it up when he saw how outmatched he was against all of those characters and it still wasn't enough. They were still just that powerful and since your trying so hard to place the DBZ warriors were you want them on the power grid, tell me why are you questioning this? Even if they are going all out they still have enough common sense to not destroy the planet and kill everyone. Vegeta used the Planet Busting Final Flash and still angled the all out attack so it didn't destroy the earth, so tell me what is your point in all of this?

Your style appears to be low balling. It's not my style to continue beating a dead horse, everyone accepts the fact that they hold back in combat and this is supported all though the series. Even when they are going all out they are still holding back to a degree, now my question is would you apply this same logic to other series/characters?

There are several scans of Frieza, Buu and Cell either busting or almost busting a planet casually. You can find them with a quick internet search. Since you think they haven't shown that level of power unless they charge up.

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Jogga

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Goku, Piccolo, and King Piccolo couldn't replicate anything around that level in DB.

Outlier at it's finest.

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Etheral_Dreams

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@darthvxder: If I recall correctly, kamehameha itself is a technique that focuses ki, so we know it can be focused. I'll look for the scan when I can access a computer.

Either way, it's pretty much common sense when reading the manga.

For example:

Goku's kamehameha stalemated roshi's and his super kamehameha was said to be 'more powerful version of the one that destroyed the moon' - yet the blast was not even city sized.

Piccolo easily took out the moon, yet his attacks against saiyans even after powering up were much smaller.

Nappa's blast when he wanted to cause destruction massive compared to his attacks against z fighters. Or when he used the exact same technique against goku after powering up.

Form 1 frieza casually obliterated vegeta (the planet), but his blasts against z fighters were nowhere near that size...

This. DBZ characters concentrate the energy of their attacks and limit the AOE, thus making it much more potent.

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buttersdaman000

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By feats - It's an outlier.

By statements - It's perfectly fine.

One line of thinking is obviously better than the other though (by feats).

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micah007123

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@dbvse7 said:

Just because A is stronger than B that doesn't mean B can't do C because A didn't show the ability to accomplish C.

Roshis feat is legit.

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PrinceAragorn1

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@darthvxder:

How does that even make sense? Let's say they can't use all their power on a person for some magical reason. They could still attack the ground like they previously did (with far less effort they put in a fight), catching the opponent in the Aoe. The argument is not logical in any way.

"Anyways isnt it wrong to powerscale/guess on how much they can do instead of just using feats from the manga and movie? DBZ characters are high tier with their manga feats alone"

What power scaling? We are practically using their own feats to determine their power using canon material only.

you will also have to define 'high tier' here. How many high tiers can you show that can casually one shot planets like form 1 frieza? And will you consider someone thousands of times powerful than them in the same category?

"some people arent happy with there character being powerhouses so they want them to be solar system ot galaxy level.Im sure youre not one of those people but whats your stand on it?"

Those people also consider the anime Canon, and in the anime buu took out multiple galaxies. That is, you will agree, way beyond herald league.

Canon-wise, the highest level they reach is multi-star system/ supernova level, since goku and vegeta's final fight was observed as supernovas from earth. (Age 801)

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SymbioticSpider-Man

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@racob7: Please, Comics are much much more inconsitent. Hell, DBZ isn't even inconsistent.

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flashback0180

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For example:

Goku's kamehameha stalemated roshi's and his super kamehameha was said to be 'more powerful version of the one that destroyed the moon' - yet the blast was not even city sized.

Hi, sorry for bumping this after a month. Would you give me the source for this statement.

It came to my interest when a mod claimed that it was debunked & was probably a mistranslation few days ago.

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midnightdragon18

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#34  Edited By midnightdragon18

I mean earth only has one moon....

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Mortein

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#35  Edited By Mortein

It's not an outliner.

It would be an outliner if someone more powerful than Roshi tried to destroy the moon (or something similar, like a continent), but failed due to the lack of power.

As it was stated before

Roshi destroyed the moon with PL fewer than 200

King Piccolo stated he will destroy 1/43 of the earth with PL fewer than 300

Piccolo Jr destroyed the moon with PL fewer than 500, without even powering up

Nappa effortlessly destroyed entire region just by lifting his fingers, with PL around 5000

Vegeta fired Earth busting beam, which was stopped by Goku, Vegeta had PL 18 000.

Frieza effortlessly destroyed planet Vegeta, with PL 530 000. Planet Vegeta had gravity 10x larger than Earth, which almost certainly means it was much bigger or much denser than the earth.

@midnightdragon18 Yeah, but after Roshi destroyed it, Kami recreated it, and then Piccolo destroyed it again.

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ariesxmasters

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Man, Animevice, Comicvine and people who are very pro Superman or Comic characters period always have to try to look for anything to nit pick with Dbz it is like laughable. Like there are feats from Superman, Wonder Woman and all Comic characters that contradict each other very hard, but you see no one complaining or caring, but they make a big deal about this feat.

Akira Toriyama even confirmed Cell had the energy to bust the solar system yet people still deny it, it's so silly.

Writer/Creator>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Feats

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midnightdragon18

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@mortein: yeah but it'd be silly if every villian destroyed the moon

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Imnotarovot

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#38  Edited By Imnotarovot

If we take Roshi's feat as an outlier, then we wouldn't found any realistic solid background basis for Piccolo's moonbust; and then, by aplying this very same logic, we can consecutively deny any of the following feats by stating that "there is no real solid background basis for them to be able to do what they actually did", and then we would ultimately end giving them no feats, and we wouldn't be able debate them.

---------------

Roshi's moonbust was the first time they showed to blew up a celestial body in DB universe series as a whole, and it is as a feat, the solid background basis that tell us that Piccolo's was a reliable feat, and this last one also has a retroactive effect that tell us that Roshi's was reliable too; and then both feats act as a background that tell's us that the follwing feats and statements are probably reliable.

Roshi took a lot of time charging, and after that, he had almost no energy left, and Piccolo did so with a fooder blast, it also help's us to visualize the improvement in power that characters like Piccolo and Goku had in DB, that couldn't see because of their lack of feats, and during the timeskip, which is outside of both series.

.....

Besides, the Earth only has one Moon, so it is not like they could have had any chances of repeating the feat any time soon.

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dum529001

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WAAAH!!!! No.

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Josteinfleurme65

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Roshi's moonbust is legit, but Piccolo's moonbust was CORE DISRUPTION !!!

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midnightdragon18

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#41  Edited By midnightdragon18
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Josteinfleurme65

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midnightdragon18

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Josteinfleurme65

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archangel_03

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Dragon Ball's power levels are inconsistent and are not proportionate to destruction. It seems very strange to me that Piccolo with 400 of power level is able to destroy the Moon since King Piccolo, in the first series of DB, manages to make an attack at the Island level with a power level of 260 at the most. Admit once and for all that the power levels are wrong or at least not perfectly proportioned to the power of the characters. Dragon Ball is a nice manga and Akira Toriyama probably didn't even notice these mistakes.

We use the same logic with Naruto:

Let's put Naruto (15 years of age) a power level of 20 (he should have much more) and with the toad sage mode he should have at least 400 (20 * 20), since the second demonic seal is an x10 and it is very less strong than sage mode.

So do you want to tell me that Naruto with sage mode is a Moon Buster?

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asgardianweapon

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#46  Edited By asgardianweapon

I think that the roshi feat was an outlier, but the z warriors surpassed comics a long time ago

They by the frieza saga should already be planet busters, especialy in the end (and not all)

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takenstew22

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#48 takenstew22  Moderator

@asgardianweapon: What do you mean by "surpassed comics"?

Either way I agree Roshi's moon feat is an outlier.

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Dmnb2wavy

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#49  Edited By Dmnb2wavy

@archangel_03: powers lvls never worked like that so basically what are Saying doesn’t make much sense.

ot: idc

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archangel_03

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