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#1 Edited by BatWatch (2366 posts) - - Show Bio

Before we get started, let me tell you where I stand on the previous films in the trilogy. I was not overly impressed with Batman Begins. It was an okay movie, but the action scenes didn’t do much for me. For this reason, I was pretty cynical when I went to see The Dark Knight, but I was blown away by the best live action Batman movie to date. The action and acting were amazing, the plot was solid with ingenious themes and resolutions, and all aspects of the Bat were well represented: the fighting, the detective skills, and the determination. When I heard the rave reviews of the Dark Knight Rises, I was ready for an even better Batman film. Boy, was I in for a disappointment.

I’ll put these in order of importance starting with the minor quibbles and working my way towards the more major offences.

Whatever Happened to the Dark Knight Detective?

In The Dark Knight, Batman finally acted like a detective. He used high-tech gear to piece together a bullet fragment and pull a villainous fingerprint. He tracked down leads as Batman and Bruce Wayne in an attempt to put together Joker’s scheme. He quickly decoded many of Joker’s taunts and riddles such as the death of the detectives Harvey and Dent. He played the role of the classic noir detective and beat information out of lowlife thugs. For the first time in a movie, a director seemed to understand that Batman is more than a typical action hero who beats up bad guys. He pieces together puzzles and works preemptively on his intelligence with his intelligence to stop crimes before they happen.

Where the Hell did that go in The Dark Knight Rises? The closest we get to Bruce detecting is noticing that Selina was dusting for fingerprints and then putting together…absolutely nothing from that startling revelation. Batman couldn’t even mention some theories as to why she might want to do that? I believe Batman yelled something like, “Where’s the trigger!?!!?” at Bane at some point during the film. Does that count as detective work? No! No, it does not. In Nolan’s final Batman film, Bruce is retarded back from a skilled detective to a simple action hero who reacts to villains rather than preemptively acting to stay one step ahead of them.

Bam! Pow! Wham!

There were so many epic moments of action in The Dark Knight. Who can forget when Batman soared through the air of Hong Kong from skyscraper to skyscraper, crashed through windows onto a secure floor loaded with private security guards a second after his explosives knocked a hole in the building, took on a dozen armed guards using stealth as his weapon, and removed the criminal accountant by using a high tech, experimental extraction device. What an amazing scene! That is not even touching on Batman’s encounter with the Scarecrow’s goons and the Russian Mafia, his first confrontation with Joker in Wayne Tower, the chase through the city streets as Joker tried to kill Harvey Dent, Batman’s fight with two dozen swat agents who were about to inadvertently kill civilians, and Batman’s final confrontation with Joker and Two-Face. Wow! What an action movie.

In comparison, The Dark Knight Rises gave us the memorable moments of…well, the airplane hijacking was pretty cool if…a bit unlikely, and…that’s it. Seriously, are there any standout action scenes to you? I remember Batman, Selina, and Bane wailing on each other in generic action movie tradition, but I cannot think of a single moment that stands out. Some bridges blew up, Batman damaged Bane’s mask somehow, Bruce got stabbed in the back, and he also jumped and fell to near death quite a few times. There was that classic pose from the comics where Bane broke the Bat, but it came and went so quickly that it hardly stands out in my memory. I think I’ve belabored on this point long enough. Suffice to say, the action scenes in The Dark Knight Rises were nothing special.

Destroying the Legacy of The Dark Knight

Thematically, The Dark Knight dealt with the idea of Batman being the dark hero who would do the dirty deeds Gotham needed done even if they did not want him. Batman, Gotham’s Dark Knight, stood in contrast to Harvey Dent, Gotham’s White Knight, who would lead the city into prosperity and security by following the letter of the law. In the end, the White Knight was corrupted, but Batman, believing in the need for a hero people could admire, preserved Harvey’s reputation as Gotham’s White Knight by taking the blame for the murders upon himself. This sort of deception for the greater good was echoed in Alfred’s choice to hide the truth about Rachel leaving Bruce for Dent and Gordon’s choice to lie about Two-Face. All the heroes of the movie decided that the world deserved something better than the truth.

Now, I don’t believe in this philosophy in the real world. I believe people should always know the truth, but as a thematic concept, it was a beautiful, noble, and fascinating idea that Batman and the other heroes of Gotham would sacrifice the truth in order to create a better city.

All of this is undermined in The Dark Knight Rises. Rather than having set up a better Gotham which inspires people, all the lies seem to have just created more trouble. Bruce, now viewed as a murderer, quit being Batman and allowed the city to go without a costumed crime fighter, and rather than embracing Harvey Dent as the hero Gotham needs, it is clear through the reactions of the citizens that they long for the return of the Dark Knight. Commissioner Gordon appears to have played a part in passing some sort of Dent Law, but he is clearly eaten up from guilt at having lied to people about Two-Face, and there are implications that the Dent Law somehow violates civil rights. Alfred’s choice to spare Bruce the pain of knowing the truth about Rachel seems to have done nothing to help him. Instead, Bruce spends his day mourning the girl he believe to be his one true love. In short, all the sacrifices of The Dark Knight seem to only have made things worse in the Dark Knight Returns.

Since When Is Batman a Quitter?

Bruce spent eight years feeling sorry for himself? Seriously? Perhaps more than anything else, the thing that makes Bruce Wayne Batman is his grit and determination. He is admired as a superhero not because he has powers, but because through his force of will, he has managed to sculpt himself into the ultimate crime fighting machine capable of doing battle with anyone…except apparently when he is throwing an eight year long pity party. God! I just want to slap him upside the head. If Bruce retired the cape, but continued to actively pursue noble goals as Bruce Wayne, then his character would remain intact, but by spending at least three years merely mourning his failures, it turns him into an unsympathetic loser.

A Plot Made of Swiss Cheese

Let’s Talk about Plot Holes.

A. How did Batman overcome his lack of cartilage in his knee? He walks with a limp, finds out from a doctor that he has no cartilage left, and then designed a mechanical device which strengthens his legs (and apparently simultaneously makes his foot strong enough to kick through a concrete block). However, this little mechanical doohickey shouldn’t make the tiniest bit of difference for the problem was not that his muscles were messed up, the problem was he had no cartilage. Without some sort of cartilage replacement, then every step Batman takes should be met with extreme pain, doohickey or no doohickey.

B. Why did Talia care if Bruce killed her father? By her own admission, she was angry at him…perhaps even hated him, and she could not forgive him until…he died. Really? That’s a stretch don’t you think?

C. If she hates Bruce so much, why did she have sex with him? Don’t tell me that it is because she wanted to toy with his emotions and make him feel betrayed. Bruce had no idea that Talia was behind the scheme while he was in the pit. If he hadn’t escaped, Gotham would have blown up, Talia would have died, and Bruce would have never known. We are supposed to believe that Talia hates Bruce for killing Ra’s, who she also hated, yet sleeps with him because…well, we have no idea.

D. Why was Batman unguarded in the pit? Sure, there has to be hope for true despair…or some such dime store psychology will be used as an explanation, but really? If a ten year old girl could escape, did Bane and Talia really think that it was impossible for a grown man, one of the best fighters and athletes on the planet, to make the jump? Couldn’t you at least post a couple guards at the top who would say, “Hey, all that hope you are feeling. Say goodbye to it.” Then, tazer him and lower him back in the pit. They could at least have set up a camera to monitor if anyone escaped…or given one of the prisoners working for them a radio to warn them about the escape. Come on people! This is not good writing. This is the stereotypical, “Now that I have you in my clutches Mr. Wayne, let me explain to you my master plan and leave you in this death trap which you could not possibly escape.”

E. Wait, did I say that Bruce Wayne was one of the best fighters and athletes on the planet? I meant to say that he was a cripple who could barely move without pain. Bruce didn’t have his mechanical doohickey in the pit (not that it would have helped anyway), so how did Bruce suddenly get to the point where he could climb a forty food wall and jump a twelve foot chasm even though one leg is nearly unusable? Did his pit doctor hit Bruce’s knee with his magical healing punches?

F. Here are Ninety-Nine Plot Holes pointed out by somebody who is a better critic than me. Credit to Rumble Man for sending the line to me.

I enjoyed that last hour or so of The Dark Knight Rises, but the movie had significant flaws, and I am amazed that so many members of comicvine seem so pleased with the movie./batman/29-1699//the-dark-knight-rises/223-1214/

#2 Posted by Jorgevy (5114 posts) - - Show Bio

IMO Batman Begins>Dark Knight

I'll watch Rises tomorrow but I already know it won't be a perfect Batman movie. None of the trilogy have come close to what I wanted so I already know how's it gonna be, but I hope I'll enjoy it none the less

#3 Posted by Swagger462 (377 posts) - - Show Bio

Since when was Batman a quitter? See Dark Knight Returns. As far as Talia scoring with him maybe she was just horny and used him to get off. Or maybe it was to get him to trust her more and not suspect her. Also I reckon an external splint would do the trick to help the knee. The cartilage in your knee acts as a support. If you can simulate it then that makes sense to me.

#4 Posted by AweSam (7373 posts) - - Show Bio

1. He's been out of the game for years, he's bound to be rusty. Also, what's he going to do? He knows who Bane is. He knows where Bane is. He was stuck in a pit for months, then got out and fought Bane. He's not solving a murder.

2. The part when Batman got back into action and chased Bane while the police were chasing him was the greatest moment in any movie. You don't remember any epic moments because the movie was just one giant epic moment. Non-stop heart pounding, edge of your seat, suspenseful, awesomeness.

3. The third movie had a message. Bruce was trying to show that Batman could be anybody. Anyone, whether it be a police officer, a nobody, or even a playboy millionaire could be a hero. That was made clear when the police rallied together to fight off Bane's forces, even though they were outgunned and outmatched in almost every way.

4. In real life, comic Batman would be classified as a socio/psychopathic maniac. Yay, we have a psychopath saving us.

5.

a) Painkillers?

b) She realized who he was and what his goal was. She's also crazy. Stop questioning crazy peoples actions.

c) Bruce and Talia got married in the comics, they had to have some sort of relationship. Plus, she needed his trust.

d) Bane busted his back, he didn't think he could just magically repair it.

e) Do you have evidence he didn't hit him with a magical healing punch? Because I have evidence he did.

#5 Posted by Twentyfive (2843 posts) - - Show Bio

@PsychoKnights: PsychoKnights, I believe you and I can be friends.

#6 Posted by Batnandez (511 posts) - - Show Bio

Whatever Happened to the Dark Knight Detective?

He was rusty being gone for 8 years.

Destroying the Legacy of The Dark Knight

The sacrifice was worth it because their was peace for 8 years, people only longed for Batmans return because they knew something was coming aka Bane.

Since When Is Batman a Quitter?

He did it for peace, that's his whole goal to stop crime you know?

A Plot Made of Swiss Cheese

A. With no cartilage in the knee you can still move it's just likely that you'll wear down your knee to the point of immobility, why do you have a problem with a gadget that helps him move in a superhero movie?

B. Ra's rescued her, she loved him but did not agree with all of his ways.

C. Because Christian Bale is a hunksicle and because it sort of pays homage to the comics because she likes Bruce.

D. Why didn't Bane kill him, why didn't Talia kill him when they had sexy time? In the context of the film it was because Bane didn't think Bruce could escape.

E. If you've ever been climbing you'd know most of it is upper body strength, the real question is how he made the jump.

Honestly I think you picked stupid stuff to nitpick at because every Nolan film has nitpicky flaws like this.

#7 Posted by The Stegman (23162 posts) - - Show Bio
These all seem like petty reasons to not like the film to me.
#8 Edited by Jorgevy (5114 posts) - - Show Bio

I haven't seen the movie but IMO being out for 8 years and being rusty is no excuse to being lawzy or non-existent in the detective and deductive departments. Most of the great detectives had a natural skill for it, so "rustyness"(?) or not, they should be above others at least.

EDIT: also with Nolan's Batman, Bruce was never a good or real detective. So, it's not worth picking on IMO. It's like picking on him for not inventing anything, because this Batman never did

#9 Posted by Lvenger (18445 posts) - - Show Bio

Well this is a surprise. I've found something I kind of agree with you about. I did like the Dark Knight Rises but the Nolan films are by no means perfect. They most certainly do not do Batman justice and I have particular problems with Nolan's depiction of Batman's deductive skills, Batman pulling a Peter Parker and whining about how he wants to quit as well as Nolan not accurately depicting the meaning behind the Dark Knight Legacy.

#10 Posted by Deranged Midget (17599 posts) - - Show Bio

While I agree with the notion that TDKR wasn't comparable to it's predecessors, it wasn't a mediocre film in any sense. It was a good film with it's fair share of faults.

Oh and Batman Begins>TDK>TDKR.

Moderator
#11 Edited by BatWatch (2366 posts) - - Show Bio

@Jorgevy:

If you go in with moderate expectations, I don't think you will be disappointed. I was just expecting it to be great, and it was not, but I don't regret seeing it in theaters.

@Swagger462:

Fair point, though I was thinking in terms of regular old Batman continuity, but it is true that Batman quit in DKR.

Saying that Talia just wanted to get off is pretty flimsy. She is an attractive and powerful woman. She could probably get off with just about any straight guy. She didn't need to sleep with her arch enemy. Also, it was already pretty clear that Bruce trusted her completely. I'm 85% sure that Bruce had already entrusted her with the company by the time they slept together.

A splint might help Bruce's knee (I admit my medical knowledge is quite limited), but it would also immobilize his leg. Obviously, Bruce did not splint it.

@AweSam:

1. Fair points about not having to find Bane, but that is my point. The story was not written in a way to highlight Bruce's detective skills. It was too straightforward in my opinion, and that cheated the audience out of the excitement of the cat and mouse games which made The Dark Knight so riveting. Also, I don't really think detective skills could get too rusty, and if we are to believe Bats could go into the field of battle without much problem, then he should certainly be able to think clearly. Furthermore, he could have deduced that someone was trying to uncover his secret identity due to Catwomans fingerprint lifting, and it would not have hurt if he could have uncovered Talia's secret either. Nonetheless, the story they made didn't provide many good chances for him to be a detective, which is again, my complaint.

2. You are, of course, entitled to your own opinion, but I don't even remember the scene you describe. I do remember a scene where two dozen police cars started chasing after Batman, and I remember thinking, "How did they all get on him so quickly and line up in that formation, and why are there no other cars on the street?" Perhaps Batman was chasing Bane at that point. I don't recall.

3. I see that, and that is one of the things I did like about the movie. Remember, I'm not saying the movie was bad, I'm just saying it was mediocre. However, even though I liked that theme in Dark Knight Rises, it doesn't change the fact that other elements of the story undermined the theme from the last movie.

4. A sociopath is someone without a conscience. No interpretations of Batman, except perhaps for Miller's, would characterize him as a sociopath. There is nothing sociopathic about continuing to fight crime.

5A. Perhaps that would have worked, but if that was how Bruce powered through it, they should have taken the time to explain it. It is sloppy to set up a problem for a hero and then ignore it for the rest of the movie.

5B. She was already in the League of Shadows. She knew and understood his methods before. She just "couldn't forgive him until he died" which is again, sloppy writing. Why not just make her a loyal daughter. It would make more sense.

5C. No they did not. Nolan changed all sorts of things from the comics. There was no reason for this to stay the same. If you wanted to keep that relationship, Nolan could have given some reasonable explanation for it. For instance, she could have revealed her betrayal to him once he was imprisoned or she could have taken her time in Wayne Manor to check out Bruce's info on the Bat Computer. Anything other than having them sleep together just because we needed to create drama.

5D. Fair enough, but of course that leads us to the fact that...it was magically repaired.

5E. (laughs) Touche.

@Twentyfive:

I believe we are already following each other. (grins)

@Batnandez:

1. Being in retirement for eight years means you suddenly can't solve problems? I don't think that is reasonable.

2. Fair point. There was peace, but it also caused problems which at least taints the sacrifices made in The Dark Knight, and I'm sure Batman could have been doing some good over those eight years. I don't think the citizens of Gotham had any clue Bane was coming.

3. Even if it was best for Gotham to be without a Batman for eight years, which is debatable, that doesn't excuse Bruce turning into a sad sack of crap after his energy project fell apart.

A. I suppose you could make the case that Batman could work through the pain...though I am skeptical. More importantly, the solution demonstrated was that he put on a leg device, and that doesn't make sense. I have no problem with him having a device which will help move his leg for him or even increase his strength, but that device would not do anything to help his joint. He wasn't having muscle problems, he was having joint problems.

B. She apparently did agree with all his ways since she was willing to sacrifice her life for his dream of destroying Gotham, but she said she couldn't forgive him until he died. How does that make any sense? "Oh, I hate you, but now that you are dead, I love you so much."

C. Eew. I think the best way to pay homage to the comics is by delivering a good story which makes sense...not one where they sleep together because Talia raped Bruce once.

D. Good questions. It would have made sense to at least take some precautians against Bruce's escape.

E. I've climbed lots of times, and I disagree completely. You have to have arms to find higher holds, but you have to have legs to support you where you are currently. It also helps to have legs to push you to higher levels. Either way, the jump is still out of the question.

In my view, if an action movie cannot have a coherent plot or good action, it is not good for much of anything. The acting was great all around, I'll give the movie that.

@The Stegman:

The action movie's action is not very good, the plot is full of holes, Batman's character in terms of detective skills and determination is poorly represented, and the themes of the trilogy seem to conflict. What, in your opinion, would be a good reason to dislike a film? Also, I don't dislike it, I just thought it was mediocre.

@Jorgevy:

I agree that detective skills should still be reasonably sharp even after a break.

As far as Nolan's Batman not being a detective, I agree he was not in Batman Begins, but I believe he was in The Dark Knight. I made that case in my OP.

Your point about Batman not inventing anything is a fair one, but inventions are not near as important to the Batman legacy as detection. We are talking about the star for sixty years plus of Detective Comics.

#12 Posted by AweSam (7373 posts) - - Show Bio

@PsychoKnights: Sociopaths do have a conscience. Sociopaths suffer from an anti-social disorder. Batman, a guy who disguises himself in an costume meant to instill fear in people. A guy who locks himself in a cave all day. A guy who can't maintain a normal relationship and who is very paranoid. Who uses force instead of just talking to someone to get what he wants. Trust me, he's very anti-social. Also, yes Nolan changed a lot of things, but he kept the tension between Bruce and Selena. Why not add Talia into it as well? It's also partly to trick the viewers.

#13 Posted by Twentyfive (2843 posts) - - Show Bio

@PsychoKnights: I know we are. I am just glad that we are of the same mind when it comes to this movie. It was good, not great. I did not let the fact that it was Batman blind me from the truth that this movie left me with a lot to be desired. And boy, did it ever...

#14 Posted by TheBigRedCheese (372 posts) - - Show Bio

I thought the Dark Knight Rises was a good film. It's my least favorite of the trilogy, but I enjoyed it. My only gripe with all of the Nolan Bat films is Batman's voice. I understand he is trying to disguise his voice, but Bale sounds ridiculous.

#15 Edited by BatWatch (2366 posts) - - Show Bio

@Lvenger:

(grins) We agree on a few things...just not much when it comes to politics...at least in terms of the death penalty, but I'm going to bet we would disagree on a lot of other things as well.

Yeah, I love The Dark Knight, but (shakes head) The Dark Knights Rises just wasn't a great film. I can understand the average yahoo giving it a good rating, but I really thought the comicvine community would hold Nolan to a higher standard.

@Deranged Midget: I would go with TDK, TDKR, and then BB. Like I said before, I didn't care for any of the action in Batman Begins. The Scarecrow's fear toxins was laughably tame though I understand they didn't want to freak out the kiddos, but still. Also, Batman never really mixed it up while wearing the costume in Batman Begins. All we saw were capes swooping and thugs disappearing. That just felt like a cop out to me. Still, the plot of Batman Begins was much better in terms of consistency than Rises, but on the other hand, The Dark Knight Rises was much more ambitious. In the end, TDKR beats out BB by a little just because of the superior, if non-inspired, action.

As far as me calling The Dark Knight Returns a mediocre film, you are right. That isn't fair. I guess to be more precise, I should say that considering all the things The Dark Knight Rises had going for it, a great cast, a great director, a great universe, a great budget, great source material, a great writer...with all of this, the film was mediocre compared to what it could have been. If I went to see this as a standalone movie with no expectations, then I would probably be pretty pleased with it. I'd give it an 8 out of 10, but knowing what it could have been and comparing it to The Dark Knight, it is mediocre.

@AweSam:

I'm afraid you are just plain wrong Sam. Look, I have a Bachelor of Arts with a Psychology Minor, I've taken Abnormal Psychology with an ex-criminal psychologist for a teacher where we spent a couple of days discussing psychopathy, and I've read parts of several books on the subject. Unless you can rival that, I'm calling the expertise card on you.

Sociopathy, Psychopathy, and Anti-Social Personality Disorder all mean more or less the same thing. The official definition has changed slightly over time, but there is no significant difference. In all cases, psychopathy means someone who has no conscience and actively manipulates and hurts other people. Here is the definition as given by Pubmed Health: "Antisocial personality disorder is a mental health condition in which a person has a long-term pattern of manipulating, exploiting, or violating the rights of others. This behavior is often criminal." Batman may have many of the symptoms of Psychopathy such as criminal behavior, tendency towards violence, and arrogance, but he does not have the central characteristic, lack of remorse. He cares deeply, and that drives every other action.

I think where you are getting confused is that you are mixing up the common understanding of the term "anti-social" with the psychological definition of "anti-social." People often use anti-social to mean someone who does is not good at talking with other people or frequently has conflicts with other people, but that is not the literal definition of the word. That is simply someone being introverted or having bad social skills. Someone who is Anti-Social is actively working Against-Society. That is what the term literally means, and it is what it means as applied to sociopaths.

Talia's deception was all about tricking the viewers. It made no sense in the context of the movie which is my complaint. They could have had Bane rip off his make and unveiled him to be...the resurrected Ra's Al Ghul, and that would have been a shock to the viewers, but it would not have made sense in the context of the movie. You can't just make random stuff happen without reason. Well, you can, but it is sloppy writing.

@Twentyfive:

Yeah, you and me both. I guess different people look for different things in a Batman story. I want a more mental game and kick butt ninja action, but it seems most people are content with the see bad guy and fight in a bat-suit scenario.

@TheBigRedCheese:

To each their own. I didn't care for the action, the plot holes, or the certain elements of Bruce's characterization, but I agree it wasn't a bad movie. It just wasn't as great as it should have been.

Oh, and the voice thing is stupid. You would think they would have changed that from The Dark Knight since everyone complained about it, but apparently not. Between his voice and the theater volume being down just a tad too much, I missed many lines of dialogue.

#16 Posted by AverageKoala (238 posts) - - Show Bio

Pretty sure Talia seduced him to get the shares of Wayne Corp she needed so she could get her hands on that nuke majigger.

When I see a comicbook movie I tend to take it as the directors vision of the characters, Nolan's Batman is brooding and vulnerable at times, he seems more real than his comic counterpart.

I enjoyed the entire trilogy and would say Batman Begins < Dark Knight Rises < Dark Knight

#17 Posted by Mega_spidey01 (3078 posts) - - Show Bio

i agree with your original post pyschoknights about the dark knight rises. it was a decent movie full of plot and batman's voice annoyed the hell out of me.

#18 Posted by minigunman123 (3116 posts) - - Show Bio

Batman Begins = TDKR > TDK.

TDK was okay. It was kind of eh, to me. TDKR was epic and awesome, and Batman Begins was about the dark knight becoming the dark knight, who he is, who he will be, how he does all this stuff, etc. etc., it's setting the stage. Don't know why you don't like the movie.

TDKR's plot holes are not nearly so numerous or dramatic as you make them sound, but others have pointed out some of the ways in which this is true already; so I'll just say that of course you're allowed to dislike the movie (or like it less than me, anyway :D) and some points were valid, but I disagree with the majority of your post.

#19 Posted by ALFaLantern (16 posts) - - Show Bio

Spoilers:::::: Dumb things in the movie.

John Blake, no skills, no money, or training but he will become Batman?

Bruce losing his fortune, so after a terrorist attack at ''Wall Street'', everybody trust that Bruce Wayne lost his fortune that day. Mysteriously after the attack...

Blake found Gordon at the very place where he felt after his meeting with Bane. Of course, Gotham is a small city.

Bane killed in a dumb way, which made him looked stupid and worthless.

Batman throwing the bomb at the end, even if he ad the autopilot, he go in the Bat.

Batman kissing Catwoman, so ''romantic'' and useful.

The final fight, thugs vs policemen, their strategy is to run in front of them without guns. Like, they could not take a moment to think and come with a plan.

#20 Posted by vicske77 (32 posts) - - Show Bio

Hello ComicVine World. I am new here and this is my first post. I found this topic interesting because there has been tons of back and forth about this movie. I am relatively new to the comic world, but I loved Christopher Nolan's Trilogy. In my opinion, The Dark Knight was an amazing movie. It would be very hard to top it. With that being said, I wasn't really expecting The Dark Knight Rises to be better. To comment on what you were saying, I do feel there were some minor plot holes but all could be explained to an extent.

My biggest plot hole is: After climbing out of the pit, how in god's name did Bruce get back to Gotham so fast? He didn't have any of his gadgets and it seemed to be located somewhere in the middle east or something. Other then that, I really enjoyed the movie.

#21 Posted by Guardiandevil83 (5347 posts) - - Show Bio

@PsychoKnights said:

Before we get started, let me tell you where I stand on the previous films in the trilogy. I was not overly impressed with Batman Begins. It was an okay movie, but the action scenes didn’t do much for me. For this reason, I was pretty cynical when I went to see The Dark Knight, but I was blown away by the best live action Batman movie to date. The action and acting were amazing, the plot was solid with ingenious themes and resolutions, and all aspects of the Bat were well represented: the fighting, the detective skills, and the determination. When I heard the rave reviews of the Dark Knight Rises, I was ready for an even better Batman film. Boy, was I in for a disappointment.

I’ll put these in order of importance starting with the minor quibbles and working my way towards the more major offences.

Whatever Happened to the Dark Knight Detective?

In The Dark Knight, Batman finally acted like a detective. He used high-tech gear to piece together a bullet fragment and pull a villainous fingerprint. He tracked down leads as Batman and Bruce Wayne in an attempt to put together Joker’s scheme. He quickly decoded many of Joker’s taunts and riddles such as the death of the detectives Harvey and Dent. He played the role of the classic noir detective and beat information out of lowlife thugs. For the first time in a movie, a director seemed to understand that Batman is more than a typical action hero who beats up bad guys. He pieces together puzzles and works preemptively on his intelligence with his intelligence to stop crimes before they happen.

Where the Hell did that go in The Dark Knight Rises? The closest we get to Bruce detecting is noticing that Selina was dusting for fingerprints and then putting together…absolutely nothing from that startling revelation. Batman couldn’t even mention some theories as to why she might want to do that? I believe Batman yelled something like, “Where’s the trigger!?!!?” at Bane at some point during the film. Does that count as detective work? No! No, it does not. In Nolan’s final Batman film, Bruce is retarded back from a skilled detective to a simple action hero who reacts to villains rather than preemptively acting to stay one step ahead of them.

Bam! Pow! Wham!

There were so many epic moments of action in The Dark Knight. Who can forget when Batman soared through the air of Hong Kong from skyscraper to skyscraper, crashed through windows onto a secure floor loaded with private security guards a second after his explosives knocked a hole in the building, took on a dozen armed guards using stealth as his weapon, and removed the criminal accountant by using a high tech, experimental extraction device. What an amazing scene! That is not even touching on Batman’s encounter with the Scarecrow’s goons and the Russian Mafia, his first confrontation with Joker in Wayne Tower, the chase through the city streets as Joker tried to kill Harvey Dent, Batman’s fight with two dozen swat agents who were about to inadvertently kill civilians, and Batman’s final confrontation with Joker and Two-Face. Wow! What an action movie.

In comparison, The Dark Knight Rises gave us the memorable moments of…well, the airplane hijacking was pretty cool if…a bit unlikely, and…that’s it. Seriously, are there any standout action scenes to you? I remember Batman, Selina, and Bane wailing on each other in generic action movie tradition, but I cannot think of a single moment that stands out. Some bridges blew up, Batman damaged Bane’s mask somehow, Bruce got stabbed in the back, and he also jumped and fell to near death quite a few times. There was that classic pose from the comics where Bane broke the Bat, but it came and went so quickly that it hardly stands out in my memory. I think I’ve belabored on this point long enough. Suffice to say, the action scenes in The Dark Knight Rises were nothing special.

Destroying the Legacy of The Dark Knight

Thematically, The Dark Knight dealt with the idea of Batman being the dark hero who would do the dirty deeds Gotham needed done even if they did not want him. Batman, Gotham’s Dark Knight, stood in contrast to Harvey Dent, Gotham’s White Knight, who would lead the city into prosperity and security by following the letter of the law. In the end, the White Knight was corrupted, but Batman, believing in the need for a hero people could admire, preserved Harvey’s reputation as Gotham’s White Knight by taking the blame for the murders upon himself. This sort of deception for the greater good was echoed in Alfred’s choice to hide the truth about Maggie leaving Bruce for Dent and Gordon’s choice to lie about Two-Face. All the heroes of the movie decided that the world deserved something better than the truth.

Now, I don’t believe in this philosophy in the real world. I believe people should always know the truth, but as a thematic concept, it was a beautiful, noble, and fascinating idea that Batman and the other heroes of Gotham would sacrifice the truth in order to create a better city.

All of this is undermined in The Dark Knight Rises. Rather than having set up a better Gotham which inspires people, all the lies seem to have just created more trouble. Bruce, now viewed as a murderer, quit being Batman and allowed the city to go without a costumed crime fighter, and rather than embracing Harvey Dent as the hero Gotham needs, it is clear through the reactions of the citizens that they long for the return of the Dark Knight. Commissioner Gordon appears to have played a part in passing some sort of Dent Law, but he is clearly eaten up from guilt at having lied to people about Two-Face, and there are implications that the Dent Law somehow violates civil rights. Alfred’s choice to spare Bruce the pain of knowing the truth about Maggie seems to have done nothing to help him. Instead, Bruce spends his day mourning the girl he believe to be his one true love. In short, all the sacrifices of The Dark Knight seem to only have made things worse in the Dark Knight Returns.

Since When Is Batman a Quitter?

Bruce spent eight years feeling sorry for himself? Seriously? Perhaps more than anything else, the thing that makes Bruce Wayne Batman is his grit and determination. He is admired as a superhero not because he has powers, but because through his force of will, he has managed to sculpt himself into the ultimate crime fighting machine capable of doing battle with anyone…except apparently when he is throwing an eight year long pity party. God! I just want to slap him upside the head. If Bruce retired the cape, but continued to actively pursue noble goals as Bruce Wayne, then his character would remain intact, but by spending at least three years merely mourning his failures, it turns him into an unsympathetic loser.

A Plot Made of Swiss Cheese

Let’s Talk about Plot Holes.

A. How did Batman overcome his lack of cartilage in his knee? He walks with a limp, finds out from a doctor that he has no cartilage left, and then designed a mechanical device which strengthens his legs (and apparently simultaneously makes his foot strong enough to kick through a concrete block). However, this little mechanical doohickey shouldn’t make the tiniest bit of difference for the problem was not that his muscles were messed up, the problem was he had no cartilage. Without some sort of cartilage replacement, then every step Batman takes should be met with extreme pain, doohickey or no doohickey.

B. Why did Talia care if Bruce killed her father? By her own admission, she was angry at him…perhaps even hated him, and she could not forgive him until…he died. Really? That’s a stretch don’t you think?

C. If she hates Bruce so much, why did she have sex with him? Don’t tell me that it is because she wanted to toy with his emotions and make him feel betrayed. Bruce had no idea that Talia was behind the scheme while he was in the pit. If he hadn’t escaped, Gotham would have blown up, Talia would have died, and Bruce would have never known. We are supposed to believe that Talia hates Bruce for killing Ra’s, who she also hated, yet sleeps with him because…well, we have no idea.

D. Why was Batman unguarded in the pit? Sure, there has to be hope for true despair…or some such dime store psychology will be used as an explanation, but really? If a ten year old girl could escape, did Bane and Talia really think that it was impossible for a grown man, one of the best fighters and athletes on the planet, to make the jump? Couldn’t you at least post a couple guards at the top who would say, “Hey, all that hope you are feeling. Say goodbye to it.” Then, tazer him and lower him back in the pit. They could at least have set up a camera to monitor if anyone escaped…or given one of the prisoners working for them a radio to warn them about the escape. Come on people! This is not good writing. This is the stereotypical, “Now that I have you in my clutches Mr. Wayne, let me explain to you my master plan and leave you in this death trap which you could not possibly escape.”

E. Wait, did I say that Bruce Wayne was one of the best fighters and athletes on the planet? I meant to say that he was a cripple who could barely move without pain. Bruce didn’t have his mechanical doohickey in the pit (not that it would have helped anyway), so how did Bruce suddenly get to the point where he could climb a forty food wall and jump a twelve foot chasm even though one leg is nearly unusable? Did his pit doctor hit Bruce’s knee with his magical healing punches?

I enjoyed that last hour or so of The Dark Knight Rises, but the movie had significant flaws, and I am amazed that so many members of comicvine seem so pleased with the movie./batman/29-1699//the-dark-knight-rises/223-1214/

I like the points you made. But don't you mean Alfred held the fact that Rachael was leaving Bruce for Harvey?

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#22 Posted by BatWatch (2366 posts) - - Show Bio

@Guardiandevil83: Whoops! It was Rachel, wasn't it? I wonder why I was thinking Maggie? (googles)

Ah, I'm not completely crazy. The girl who played Rachel in The Dark Knight and TDKR is named Maggie Gyllenhaal. I'll change it though.

#23 Posted by menaceforever (3696 posts) - - Show Bio

Talia was probraly really horny.

#24 Posted by Glitch_Spawn (17132 posts) - - Show Bio

I see your arguments, but at the end of the day the film still really good. As good as The Dark Knight? No, but still really good. You should do some further reading though and you'll see where some of your issues with movie sort themselves out :D

#25 Posted by x_29 (2274 posts) - - Show Bio

Well I cannot say that I agree with all but to each their own. Though I will say that I was not impress with the action from the dark knight unlike the dark knight rises.

#26 Edited by Queso6p4 (1430 posts) - - Show Bio

@PsychoKnights said:

Before we get started, let me tell you where I stand on the previous films in the trilogy. I was not overly impressed with Batman Begins. It was an okay movie, but the action scenes didn’t do much for me. For this reason, I was pretty cynical when I went to see The Dark Knight, but I was blown away by the best live action Batman movie to date. The action and acting were amazing, the plot was solid with ingenious themes and resolutions, and all aspects of the Bat were well represented: the fighting, the detective skills, and the determination. When I heard the rave reviews of the Dark Knight Rises, I was ready for an even better Batman film. Boy, was I in for a disappointment.

I’ll put these in order of importance starting with the minor quibbles and working my way towards the more major offences.

Whatever Happened to the Dark Knight Detective?

In The Dark Knight, Batman finally acted like a detective. He used high-tech gear to piece together a bullet fragment and pull a villainous fingerprint. He tracked down leads as Batman and Bruce Wayne in an attempt to put together Joker’s scheme. He quickly decoded many of Joker’s taunts and riddles such as the death of the detectives Harvey and Dent. He played the role of the classic noir detective and beat information out of lowlife thugs. For the first time in a movie, a director seemed to understand that Batman is more than a typical action hero who beats up bad guys. He pieces together puzzles and works preemptively on his intelligence with his intelligence to stop crimes before they happen.

Where the Hell did that go in The Dark Knight Rises? The closest we get to Bruce detecting is noticing that Selina was dusting for fingerprints and then putting together…absolutely nothing from that startling revelation. Batman couldn’t even mention some theories as to why she might want to do that? I believe Batman yelled something like, “Where’s the trigger!?!!?” at Bane at some point during the film. Does that count as detective work? No! No, it does not. In Nolan’s final Batman film, Bruce is retarded back from a skilled detective to a simple action hero who reacts to villains rather than preemptively acting to stay one step ahead of them.

Agree with you on this. It was sorely lacking.

Bam! Pow! Wham!

There were so many epic moments of action in The Dark Knight. Who can forget when Batman soared through the air of Hong Kong from skyscraper to skyscraper, crashed through windows onto a secure floor loaded with private security guards a second after his explosives knocked a hole in the building, took on a dozen armed guards using stealth as his weapon, and removed the criminal accountant by using a high tech, experimental extraction device. What an amazing scene! That is not even touching on Batman’s encounter with the Scarecrow’s goons and the Russian Mafia, his first confrontation with Joker in Wayne Tower, the chase through the city streets as Joker tried to kill Harvey Dent, Batman’s fight with two dozen swat agents who were about to inadvertently kill civilians, and Batman’s final confrontation with Joker and Two-Face. Wow! What an action movie.

In comparison, The Dark Knight Rises gave us the memorable moments of…well, the airplane hijacking was pretty cool if…a bit unlikely, and…that’s it. Seriously, are there any standout action scenes to you? I remember Batman, Selina, and Bane wailing on each other in generic action movie tradition, but I cannot think of a single moment that stands out. Some bridges blew up, Batman damaged Bane’s mask somehow, Bruce got stabbed in the back, and he also jumped and fell to near death quite a few times. There was that classic pose from the comics where Bane broke the Bat, but it came and went so quickly that it hardly stands out in my memory. I think I’ve belabored on this point long enough. Suffice to say, the action scenes in The Dark Knight Rises were nothing special.

Agree with this point too.

Destroying the Legacy of The Dark Knight

Thematically, The Dark Knight dealt with the idea of Batman being the dark hero who would do the dirty deeds Gotham needed done even if they did not want him. Batman, Gotham’s Dark Knight, stood in contrast to Harvey Dent, Gotham’s White Knight, who would lead the city into prosperity and security by following the letter of the law. In the end, the White Knight was corrupted, but Batman, believing in the need for a hero people could admire, preserved Harvey’s reputation as Gotham’s White Knight by taking the blame for the murders upon himself. This sort of deception for the greater good was echoed in Alfred’s choice to hide the truth about Maggie leaving Bruce for Dent and Gordon’s choice to lie about Two-Face. All the heroes of the movie decided that the world deserved something better than the truth.

Now, I don’t believe in this philosophy in the real world. I believe people should always know the truth, but as a thematic concept, it was a beautiful, noble, and fascinating idea that Batman and the other heroes of Gotham would sacrifice the truth in order to create a better city.

All of this is undermined in The Dark Knight Rises. Rather than having set up a better Gotham which inspires people, all the lies seem to have just created more trouble. Bruce, now viewed as a murderer, quit being Batman and allowed the city to go without a costumed crime fighter, and rather than embracing Harvey Dent as the hero Gotham needs, it is clear through the reactions of the citizens that they long for the return of the Dark Knight.

Don't recall anyone really wanting Batman to come back.

Commissioner Gordon appears to have played a part in passing some sort of Dent Law, but he is clearly eaten up from guilt at having lied to people about Two-Face, and there are implications that the Dent Law somehow violates civil rights. Alfred’s choice to spare Bruce the pain of knowing the truth about Maggie seems to have done nothing to help him. Instead, Bruce spends his day mourning the girl he believe to be his one true love. In short, all the sacrifices of The Dark Knight seem to only have made things worse in the Dark Knight Returns.

I think that was the point. The whole peace they'd come to appreciate was not only based on a lie, but also on the violation of people's civil rights. This is not okay and should be done away with. Also, this totally is in line with what Bane wanted to show in the first place, that Gothamites are corrupt, decadent people, who needed to be purged. Alfred's lie turned out to hugely backfire as it not only cause Bruce to linger in his depression, but also eroded the long-established trust between them.

Since When Is Batman a Quitter?

Bruce spent eight years feeling sorry for himself? Seriously? Perhaps more than anything else, the thing that makes Bruce Wayne Batman is his grit and determination. He is admired as a superhero not because he has powers, but because through his force of will, he has managed to sculpt himself into the ultimate crime fighting machine capable of doing battle with anyone…except apparently when he is throwing an eight year long pity party. God! I just want to slap him upside the head. If Bruce retired the cape, but continued to actively pursue noble goals as Bruce Wayne, then his character would remain intact, but by spending at least three years merely mourning his failures, it turns him into an unsympathetic loser.

Agree with you here. Even in TDKR, he still helps out even after retiring.

A Plot Made of Swiss Cheese

Let’s Talk about Plot Holes.

A. How did Batman overcome his lack of cartilage in his knee? He walks with a limp, finds out from a doctor that he has no cartilage left, and then designed a mechanical device which strengthens his legs (and apparently simultaneously makes his foot strong enough to kick through a concrete block). However, this little mechanical doohickey shouldn’t make the tiniest bit of difference for the problem was not that his muscles were messed up, the problem was he had no cartilage. Without some sort of cartilage replacement, then every step Batman takes should be met with extreme pain, doohickey or no doohickey.

Before he lost his money he could've afforded cartilage injections even though we don't see that in the film.

B. Why did Talia care if Bruce killed her father? By her own admission, she was angry at him…perhaps even hated him, and she could not forgive him until…he died. Really? That’s a stretch don’t you think?

Totally agree with this too. That part made no sense to me because she could still carry on his work whether or not he was alive. That whole business of "there are many forms of immortality, i.e. children zahaaaa!" made me angry too because it was soo predictable and a huge cop-out. I think they should've just left out the whole Talia "twist" completely.

C. If she hates Bruce so much, why did she have sex with him? Don’t tell me that it is because she wanted to toy with his emotions and make him feel betrayed. Bruce had no idea that Talia was behind the scheme while he was in the pit. If he hadn’t escaped, Gotham would have blown up, Talia would have died, and Bruce would have never known. We are supposed to believe that Talia hates Bruce for killing Ra’s, who she also hated, yet sleeps with him because…well, we have no idea.

This totally made sense to me. Her having sex with him cemented his trust in her. She knew he was particularly emotionally vulnerable and made her move.

D. Why was Batman unguarded in the pit? Sure, there has to be hope for true despair…or some such dime store psychology will be used as an explanation, but really? If a ten year old girl could escape, did Bane and Talia really think that it was impossible for a grown man, one of the best fighters and athletes on the planet, to make the jump? Couldn’t you at least post a couple guards at the top who would say, “Hey, all that hope you are feeling. Say goodbye to it.” Then, tazer him and lower him back in the pit. They could at least have set up a camera to monitor if anyone escaped…or given one of the prisoners working for them a radio to warn them about the escape. Come on people! This is not good writing. This is the stereotypical, “Now that I have you in my clutches Mr. Wayne, let me explain to you my master plan and leave you in this death trap which you could not possibly escape.”

As Bane said in the movie, "Impossible." He didn't expect a man with a broken back to escape the pit. Remember, he thought Batman was broken both spiritually, and physically, and and it's hard for someone to recover from that, let alone in six months. This is a realistic expectation. Even if someone else managed to escape, and pull him out, his back's broken so what can he do? Also, if the only unaided escapee was the messed up child Talia, expecting no one else to escape isn't that much of a stretch.

E. Wait, did I say that Bruce Wayne was one of the best fighters and athletes on the planet? I meant to say that he was a cripple who could barely move without pain. Bruce didn’t have his mechanical doohickey in the pit (not that it would have helped anyway), so how did Bruce suddenly get to the point where he could climb a forty food wall and jump a twelve foot chasm even though one leg is nearly unusable? Did his pit doctor hit Bruce’s knee with his magical healing punches?

Yeah, about that. :) This just has to be begrudgingly accepted as the replacement for Dr. Shondra Kinsolving.

I enjoyed that last hour or so of The Dark Knight Rises, but the movie had significant flaws, and I am amazed that so many members of comicvine seem so pleased with the movie./batman/29-1699//the-dark-knight-rises/223-1214/

#27 Edited by The Stegman (23162 posts) - - Show Bio
@PsychoKnights: Okay, let me see if I can answer these concerns 
 
 



Whatever Happened to the Dark Knight Detective?

In The Dark Knight, Batman finally acted like a detective. He used high-tech gear to piece together a bullet fragment and pull a villainous fingerprint. He tracked down leads as Batman and Bruce Wayne in an attempt to put together Joker’s scheme. He quickly decoded many of Joker’s taunts and riddles such as the death of the detectives Harvey and Dent. He played the role of the classic noir detective and beat information out of lowlife thugs. For the first time in a movie, a director seemed to understand that Batman is more than a typical action hero who beats up bad guys. He pieces together puzzles and works preemptively on his intelligence with his intelligence to stop crimes before they happen.

Where the Hell did that go in The Dark Knight Rises? The closest we get to Bruce detecting is noticing that Selina was dusting for fingerprints and then putting together…absolutely nothing from that startling revelation. Batman couldn’t even mention some theories as to why she might want to do that? I believe Batman yelled something like, “Where’s the trigger!?!!?” at Bane at some point during the film. Does that count as detective work? No! No, it does not. In Nolan’s final Batman film, Bruce is retarded back from a skilled detective to a simple action hero who reacts to villains rather than preemptively acting to stay one step ahead of them. 


This is not, i repeat, THIS IS NOT the Batman we know and love from the comics, this is Christopher Nolan's interpretation of Batman, yes, he's not as great of a detective as his comic counterpart, and I say, so what? It's like when people go into a movie based on a book and gripe about it not being like the book, it's because the director took artistic license on the character, and tweeking it to their liking, don't try to sit and nit pick about how Batman's detective skills are limited, because really, they were not that great in the other two films nor in any other Batman movie to date. 
 


Destroying the Legacy of The Dark Knight


Thematically, The Dark Knight dealt with the idea of Batman being the dark hero who would do the dirty deeds Gotham needed done even if they did not want him. Batman, Gotham’s Dark Knight, stood in contrast to Harvey Dent, Gotham’s White Knight, who would lead the city into prosperity and security by following the letter of the law. In the end, the White Knight was corrupted, but Batman, believing in the need for a hero people could admire, preserved Harvey’s reputation as Gotham’s White Knight by taking the blame for the murders upon himself. This sort of deception for the greater good was echoed in Alfred’s choice to hide the truth about Rachel leaving Bruce for Dent and Gordon’s choice to lie about Two-Face. All the heroes of the movie decided that the world deserved something better than the truth.

Now, I don’t believe in this philosophy in the real world. I believe people should always know the truth, but as a thematic concept, it was a beautiful, noble, and fascinating idea that Batman and the other heroes of Gotham would sacrifice the truth in order to create a better city.

All of this is undermined in The Dark Knight Rises. Rather than having set up a better Gotham which inspires people, all the lies seem to have just created more trouble. Bruce, now viewed as a murderer, quit being Batman and allowed the city to go without a costumed crime fighter, and rather than embracing Harvey Dent as the hero Gotham needs, it is clear through the reactions of the citizens that they long for the return of the Dark Knight. Commissioner Gordon appears to have played a part in passing some sort of Dent Law, but he is clearly eaten up from guilt at having lied to people about Two-Face, and there are implications that the Dent Law somehow violates civil rights. Alfred’s choice to spare Bruce the pain of knowing the truth about Rachel seems to have done nothing to help him. Instead, Bruce spends his day mourning the girl he believe to be his one true love. In short, all the sacrifices of The Dark Knight seem to only have made things worse in the Dark Knight Returns. 


How is this a bad thing? Not all plans turn out good, some take a turn for the worse, although some good things have happened. They stated in the Dark Knight that the people of Gotham needed a hero with a face, a person who stands up for truth, justice, and follows the legal process, Batman is the hero Gotham deserved, but in the end, he was a masked vigilantee operating outside of the law, he wasn't the hero Gotham needed, Harvey Dent, or at least, the ideal Dent represented, was, and it proved to work as thanks to the Dent Act, Gotham crime was at an all time low.  As for Rachel, Yes, Bruce mourned her, but at least, deep down, he knew that she loved him, if Alfred would have given Bruce the note, it would have broken his heart even more, was it the right decision for Alfred? maybe not, but he was trying to spare Bruce from any further pain, I would have done the same thing. 
 



Since When Is Batman a Quitter?

Bruce spent eight years feeling sorry for himself? Seriously? Perhaps more than anything else, the thing that makes Bruce Wayne Batman is his grit and determination. He is admired as a superhero not because he has powers, but because through his force of will, he has managed to sculpt himself into the ultimate crime fighting machine capable of doing battle with anyone…except apparently when he is throwing an eight year long pity party. God! I just want to slap him upside the head. If Bruce retired the cape, but continued to actively pursue noble goals as Bruce Wayne, then his character would remain intact, but by spending at least three years merely mourning his failures, it turns him into an unsympathetic loser. 


He quite being Batman because 1. Batman was an outlaw, and couldn't show his face. 2. Because Gotham didn't NEED Batman right now, like Gordon, he was a war hero, and it was peace time. and 3. Like Alfred said, Bruce felt as if there was nothing left for him in the world, the only chance of happiness he could have had died in an explosion, However, as shown, when Gotham DID need him, he didn't hesitate to put his life on the line again to dawn the cape and cowl. 
 



A Plot Made of Swiss Cheese

Let’s Talk about Plot Holes.

A. How did Batman overcome his lack of cartilage in his knee? He walks with a limp, finds out from a doctor that he has no cartilage left, and then designed a mechanical device which strengthens his legs (and apparently simultaneously makes his foot strong enough to kick through a concrete block). However, this little mechanical doohickey shouldn’t make the tiniest bit of difference for the problem was not that his muscles were messed up, the problem was he had no cartilage. Without some sort of cartilage replacement, then every step Batman takes should be met with extreme pain, doohickey or no doohickey.

B. Why did Talia care if Bruce killed her father? By her own admission, she was angry at him…perhaps even hated him, and she could not forgive him until…he died. Really? That’s a stretch don’t you think?

C. If she hates Bruce so much, why did she have sex with him? Don’t tell me that it is because she wanted to toy with his emotions and make him feel betrayed. Bruce had no idea that Talia was behind the scheme while he was in the pit. If he hadn’t escaped, Gotham would have blown up, Talia would have died, and Bruce would have never known. We are supposed to believe that Talia hates Bruce for killing Ra’s, who she also hated, yet sleeps with him because…well, we have no idea.

D. Why was Batman unguarded in the pit? Sure, there has to be hope for true despair…or some such dime store psychology will be used as an explanation, but really? If a ten year old girl could escape, did Bane and Talia really think that it was impossible for a grown man, one of the best fighters and athletes on the planet, to make the jump? Couldn’t you at least post a couple guards at the top who would say, “Hey, all that hope you are feeling. Say goodbye to it.” Then, tazer him and lower him back in the pit. They could at least have set up a camera to monitor if anyone escaped…or given one of the prisoners working for them a radio to warn them about the escape. Come on people! This is not good writing. This is the stereotypical, “Now that I have you in my clutches Mr. Wayne, let me explain to you my master plan and leave you in this death trap which you could not possibly escape.”

E. Wait, did I say that Bruce Wayne was one of the best fighters and athletes on the planet? I meant to say that he was a cripple who could barely move without pain. Bruce didn’t have his mechanical doohickey in the pit (not that it would have helped anyway), so how did Bruce suddenly get to the point where he could climb a forty food wall and jump a twelve foot chasm even though one leg is nearly unusable? Did his pit doctor hit Bruce’s knee with his magical healing punches? 



A. It's a comic book movie, why does it matter? How did Superman reverse time by flying around the Earth? how does being bit by a spider give a nerd superpowers? How did falling from a building and being licked by cats  give Catwoman 9 lives? Suspend your disbelief. 
 
B. Even if Talia was angry at Ra's for forsaking Bane, at the end of the day, he was still her father, she still loved him, even if she disagreed with his decisions,although she admitted she agreed with his long term goals of purifying the world. there's nothing wrong with her wanting revenge for his death. 
 
C.  She slept with him, to gain his trust. She needed access to the fusion reactor they used as a bomb, and she had to make sure that Bruce trusted her enough to actually give here share in Wayne Industries to be in charge of it, and let's face it, sleeping with him definitely  furthered that goal. 
 
D. You're missing the point of the prison, it isn't just a prison of the body, but of the spirit. You were ENCOURAGED to try to escape up the wall, however, no matter how physically strong you are, if you are not willing to let go of all fear, you will fail, thus, most people who were using the rope, failed probably due to hesitation and stress. Talia escaped because she had nothing left to lose or fear. Also, if one truly did let go of fear, to rise above it and escape, then they were indeed truly worthy of their freedom, and could take it, hence, they wouldn't need guards to bring them back down, which would defeat the whole purpose of the cave climb. 
 
E.  Bruce had long pants on throughout the entire time he was in the pit, how could you possibly know he didn't have the brace on? for all we know Bane could have simply left it on his leg, it's not like you see him pant less in the pit.
#28 Posted by BiteMe-Fanboy (7589 posts) - - Show Bio

It was alright. Though alot of things didn't make sense, such as what you pointed out, it doesn't really affect the films quality for me though. I'd give it 6.5/10.. Maybe 7.

#29 Posted by Manwhohaseverything (1835 posts) - - Show Bio

I get some of the complaints, but not all. Again, what strikes me is the contradictory nature of what folks seem to want. I've read plenty of post stating (about comic Batman) that he's unrealistic because he's a master detective, top-notch inventor and a master of every martial art, and NO ONE could do that in a single life-time, much less by age 28. Then, we're presented with a "toned down" Batman who isn't quite all those things, than we complain that he's too human, and wonder where his skill set from the comics went. The key really is in suspending disbelief. 
 
That said, yes, it wasn't a perfect film, and some things did have me going "What...?" But it was still a very entertaining film, and none of the movies' faults stopped me from enjoying it. 

#30 Posted by Guardiandevil83 (5347 posts) - - Show Bio

@PsychoKnights said:

@Guardiandevil83: Whoops! It was Rachel, wasn't it? I wonder why I was thinking Maggie? (googles)

Ah, I'm not completely crazy. The girl who played Rachel in The Dark Knight and TDKR is named Maggie Gyllenhaal. I'll change it though.

I figured thats what you meant lol.

Online
#31 Posted by RainEffect (3240 posts) - - Show Bio
@PsychoKnights: I don't really have the time to respond to all your points, but I did have a passionate disagreement with the action sequences. Were you not impressed by the Bat action sequences with the truck? Personally, my favorite action sequence, which still blows me away, is the fight between Bane and Batman in the sewers. It is done in utter silence, with the only noises being occasional dialogue, falling water and visceral grunts done by Christian Bale. Seriously, I was in shock at that fight.
#32 Posted by Guardiandevil83 (5347 posts) - - Show Bio

What you should have also asked Knights, is how the hell Bruce got home from where the hell ever that prison was and then to Milan at the end of the film if he was broke. That bugged the hell outta me.

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#33 Posted by ratman19 (525 posts) - - Show Bio

i understand that the movie has its flaws. same with the avengers, it had its flaws but people enjoyed it anyway. i liked it but it didnt wow me as much as the dark knight. i still prefer the comics to movies anyway. the movies never pull me in as much as a good comic.

#34 Posted by Rumble Man (11119 posts) - - Show Bio

@PsychoKnights: I love your honest opinion sir

#35 Posted by BatWatch (2366 posts) - - Show Bio

@menaceforever:

(chuckles) Talia must have been really horny to want to sleep with the man she hated most in the world.

@Glitch_Spawn:

I don't know. As a stand alone movie, I would say it was pretty good. I can't give really good due to the underwhelming fight scenes and plot holes, but I'll give pretty good, but I still think it was a major disappointment when compared to its potential and the work Nolan did with The Dark Knight.

What should I read that would help me understand my issues?

@Queso6p4:

Agree with you on this. It was sorely lacking.

Glad to hear it.

Agree with this point too.

Thanks. I’m really surprised that people are defending the action of the Dark Knight Rises. It didn’t do much for me. There were a couple moments of, “Cool,” but they were short lived…like a second or so. No action scenes left me thinking, “Awesome!”

Don't recall anyone really wanting Batman to come back.

The police officer, Blake I think, wanted Batman back. I recall for certain Blake talking to an orphan who asked, “Is he (Batman) going to come back?” Gordon clearly felt as if Batman had abandoned him.

I think that was the point. The whole peace they'd come to appreciate was not only based on a lie, but also on the violation of people's civil rights. This is not okay and should be done away with. Also, this totally is in line with what Bane wanted to show in the first place, that Gothamites are corrupt, decadent people, who needed to be purged. Alfred's lie turned out to hugely backfire as it not only cause Bruce to linger in his depression, but also eroded the long-established trust between them.

I agree with everything you say hear except that I don’t think Bane particularly cared how corrupt Gotham was. Personally, I see him as simply wanting to make Talia happy, but there is certainly room for both interpretations of the character, and the movie never specifies if Bane is truly loyal to the goals of the League of Shadows.

However, even though I agree that the Dark Knight Rises worked well on thematically relaying the message that justice should not be based on a lie, it still leaves me with a bitter taste in my mouth regarding The Dark Knight. Now, rather than think of the end of The Dark Knight as a triumph, I am going to think of Bruce, Gordon, and Alfred’s actions as a failure…and I’m not sure I’ll ever be able to enjoy The Dark Knight as much again. When I see the final shot of Batman running away into the night, I’ll remember that his actions have led to the violation of civil liberties, intense guilt and feelings of abandonment in Gordon, and an early retirement for the Dark Knight. Lame.

Agree with you here. Even in TDKR, he still helps out even after retiring.

He did for the first five years, and then he neglected his responsibilities for the last eight years in order to feel sorry for himself…which left his business, and thereby his fortune, in shambles.

Before he lost his money he could've afforded cartilage injections even though we don't see that in the film.

Fair enough, but if that was the explanation, then it is sloppy for the writers not to tell us that. Good writing does not introduce a conflict for a character and then forget to resolve it. I think the leg brace was their only solution.

Totally agree with this too. That part made no sense to me because she could still carry on his work whether or not he was alive. That whole business of "there are many forms of immortality, i.e. children zahaaaa!" made me angry too because it was soo predictable and a huge cop-out. I think they should've just left out the whole Talia "twist" completely.

Yeah, I also saw Talia coming. However, I did like that Talia was in the movie, I just wish she had been handled better.

This totally made sense to me. Her having sex with him cemented his trust in her. She knew he was particularly emotionally vulnerable and made her move.

I don’t recall the timeline of the film, and I’ve searched for it online. There is a big question in this regard for me, did Bruce give her control of the company before the sex scene? I though he had, and if he had, then it makes little sense for the affair. If not, then I suppose it makes sense though sleeping with someone you hate still seems like a bit of a stretch to me.

As Bane said in the movie, "Impossible." He didn't expect a man with a broken back to escape the pit. Remember, he thought Batman was broken both spiritually, and physically, and and it's hard for someone to recover from that, let alone in six months. This is a realistic expectation. Even if someone else managed to escape, and pull him out, his back's broken so what can he do? Also, if the only unaided escapee was the messed up child Talia, expecting no one else to escape isn't that much of a stretch.

Fair points all around, but I still think it would have been a sensible precaution to have someone standing around, or a video monitor, or someone on the inside with a transmitter. Can’t we have a little precaution from Bane and Talia? Just a little?

Yeah, about that. :) This just has to be begrudgingly accepted as the replacement for Dr. Shondra Kinsolving.

I’m familiar with Shondra. I just read Knightfall in the past year. Good story.

(chuckles) I think they should have actually found a decent explanation for Bruce’s recovery. Let him see some actually experts or make it a long term recovery. Either way would be better than magical healing punches.

#36 Posted by Joesoef95 (315 posts) - - Show Bio

I get it when people say that it's overrated, or disappointing, or unfaithful or whatever. But mediocre? Man your standards are too high. Yes the movie broke down once you left the theater and it does have many plot holes but  while you were watching it was a great experience. Enjoyed Rises as much as Dark Knight although I rate the latter higher as a film.

#37 Edited by BatWatch (2366 posts) - - Show Bio

@The Stegman:

This is not, i repeat, THIS IS NOT the Batman we know and love from the comics, this is Christopher Nolan's interpretation of Batman, yes, he's not as great of a detective as his comic counterpart, and I say, so what? It's like when people go into a movie based on a book and gripe about it not being like the book, it's because the director took artistic license on the character, and tweeking it to their liking, don't try to sit and nit pick about how Batman's detective skills are limited, because really, they were not that great in the other two films nor in any other Batman movie to date.

I understand what you are saying, but I disagree. Nolan managed to give Bruce Wayne some detective skills in The Dark Knight. It was not Sherlock Holmes by any stretch of the imagination, but Bruce was able to keep up with Joker’s mind games. I understand that Nolan’s interpretation of Batman is not as focused on his detective skills as the comics, but that is not an excuse to forget them completely. However, I do make room for creative liberties which is one of the reasons this was the least of my concerns for the movie.

How is this a bad thing? Not all plans turn out good, some take a turn for the worse, although some good things have happened. They stated in the Dark Knight that the people of Gotham needed a hero with a face, a person who stands up for truth, justice, and follows the legal process, Batman is the hero Gotham deserved, but in the end, he was a masked vigilantee operating outside of the law, he wasn't the hero Gotham needed, Harvey Dent, or at least, the ideal Dent represented, was, and it proved to work as thanks to the Dent Act, Gotham crime was at an all time low. As for Rachel, Yes, Bruce mourned her, but at least, deep down, he knew that she loved him, if Alfred would have given Bruce the note, it would have broken his heart even more, was it the right decision for Alfred? maybe not, but he was trying to spare Bruce from any further pain, I would have done the same thing.

I don’t have a problem with so many bad results coming from the end of The Dark Knight from a writing perspective. It makes sense. What I dislike is that the developments in The Dark Knight Rises makes Batman’s actions at the end of The Dark Knight a misguided blunder rather than a triumph. At the end of the Dark Knight, I thought Batman would continue being the protector of Gotham, Gordon would keep upholding the law, and Bruce would use the loss of Rachel to fuel his war on crime. Instead, I learned through the Dark Knight Rises that Batman stopped his war on crime and felt sorry for himself, Gordon helped uphold a law which appears to have violated civil rights, and Bruce used Rachel’s loss as an excuse to feel sorry for himself. The next time I watch The Dark Knight, I can’t imagine feeling happy knowing the consequences of Bruce, Alfred, and Gordon’s actions.

He quite being Batman because 1. Batman was an outlaw, and couldn't show his face. 2. Because Gotham didn't NEED Batman right now, like Gordon, he was a war hero, and it was peace time. and 3. Like Alfred said, Bruce felt as if there was nothing left for him in the world, the only chance of happiness he could have had died in an explosion, However, as shown, when Gotham DID need him, he didn't hesitate to put his life on the line again to dawn the cape and cowl.

1. That’s why he wears a mask. Vigilantism is already a crime.

2. Batman may have been without a super villain, but I find it hard to believe that Batman could not have done good. Batman started off his campaign of justice in Batman Begins targeting street thugs. His goal was not just to take down the mafia and the Joker, yet when he captures Joker and the mafia, his quest is over somehow?

3. Which goes to my point about Bruce being a whiny quitter. It is a bad interpretation of Bruce Wayne, and I would find it hard to sympathize with any action movie hero like that. I’m pretty sure Gotham could have used him all along.

A. It's a comic book movie, why does it matter? How did Superman reverse time by flying around the Earth? how does being bit by a spider give a nerd superpowers? How did falling from a building and being licked by cats give Catwoman 9 lives? Suspend your disbelief.

Nolan kept his Batman series pretty well grounded in reality. You can’t make Batman a regular old human and then say he can push through any physical ailment…because he’s Batman. That is bad writing. It doesn’t matter if it is a comic book movie.

Superman reversing time was stupid. Catwoman getting nine lives was stupid. Getting powers by being bitten by a radioactive spider is farfetched, but at least there is a quasi-scientific explanation for it. If Batman had said, I installed this super-sticky Bat-cartilage that I just invented into my knee, then it would still have been a little stupid, but it would have been much better.

I accept movies on their own terms in their own universes. If you tell me someone has superpowers, I will suspend my disbelief and accept that he has superpowers. If you tell me our hero is human and then have him act like he has superpowers, then I have an issue with your writing.

B. Even if Talia was angry at Ra's for forsaking Bane, at the end of the day, he was still her father, she still loved him, even if she disagreed with his decisions,although she admitted she agreed with his long term goals of purifying the world. there's nothing wrong with her wanting revenge for his death.

I think having characters suddenly change their views on something for no other reason than another character dying is cheap writing. It is not completely impossible that this would happen in real life, but it is certainly very unlikely. More to the point, the whole angle of making Talia angry at her dad was unnecessary. The plot would have made much more sense if she was just the loyal daughter that Bruce never met. Sloppy writing.

C. She slept with him, to gain his trust. She needed access to the fusion reactor they used as a bomb, and she had to make sure that Bruce trusted her enough to actually give here share in Wayne Industries to be in charge of it, and let's face it, sleeping with him definitely furthered that goal.

I’m pretty sure Talia was in charge of Wayne Industries at the point at which she slept with Bruce, but I have been unable to find a summary of TDKR detailed enough to resolve my uncertainty. If she was in charge already, then it makes no sense for her to sleep with him. If she was not, then it makes sense.

D. You're missing the point of the prison, it isn't just a prison of the body, but of the spirit. You were ENCOURAGED to try to escape up the wall, however, no matter how physically strong you are, if you are not willing to let go of all fear, you will fail, thus, most people who were using the rope, failed probably due to hesitation and stress. Talia escaped because she had nothing left to lose or fear. Also, if one truly did let go of fear, to rise above it and escape, then they were indeed truly worthy of their freedom, and could take it, hence, they wouldn't need guards to bring them back down, which would defeat the whole purpose of the cave climb.

That would be fine if Bane and Talia didn’t mind Bruce actually escaping. I mean, the metaphorical prison is all well and good, and so is the idea that if you escape you’ve earned it, but Bane and Talia were not interested in being just. They wanted to torture Bruce. If they had posted guards at the top, Bruce would have had hope until the moment he made it out, so he would have still been fully tortured up until that point, but I have no doubt that if Bane and Talia had to choose between letting Bruce go or making sure he always had hope, they would crush his hope and keep him locked up.

E. Bruce had long pants on throughout the entire time he was in the pit, how could you possibly know he didn't have the brace on? for all we know Bane could have simply left it on his leg, it's not like you see him pant less in the pit.

Bane took away all of Batman’s other gear, and he obviously wanted Bruce crippled. It only makes sense that he would take Bruce’s leg brace thingamagigger. Also, the brace must run on electricity, and Bruce was in there for nearly five months. I didn’t see any electrical outlets in the cave…or any electricity other than that going to the television. Finally, I thought we saw Bruce pantsless, but perhaps we did not. I’ll take your word for it. You can make a case that Bane left him his leg brace for some reason and gave him an AC adapter for it, but it is a pretty flimsy case.

#38 Posted by The Stegman (23162 posts) - - Show Bio
@PsychoKnights:  
 

I understand what you are saying, but I disagree. Nolan managed to give Bruce Wayne some detective skills in The Dark Knight. It was not Sherlock Holmes by any stretch of the imagination, but Bruce was able to keep up with Joker’s mind games. I understand that Nolan’s interpretation of Batman is not as focused on his detective skills as the comics, but that is not an excuse to forget them completely. However, I do make room for creative liberties which is one of the reasons this was the least of my concerns for the movie.

Keep up with Joker's mind games? Joker outsmarted him throughout the entire movie, the only time he got the one up was at the end once he teamed up with Fox against his final assault against Joker. Truth be told throughout all three films he showed very little detective work, so to point it out in this one seems to just be nit picking. 
 

I don’t have a problem with so many bad results coming from the end of The Dark Knight from a writing perspective. It makes sense. What I dislike is that the developments in The Dark Knight Rises makes Batman’s actions at the end of The Dark Knight a misguided blunder rather than a triumph. At the end of the Dark Knight, I thought Batman would continue being the protector of Gotham, Gordon would keep upholding the law, and Bruce would use the loss of Rachel to fuel his war on crime. Instead, I learned through the Dark Knight Rises that Batman stopped his war on crime and felt sorry for himself, Gordon helped uphold a law which appears to have violated civil rights, and Bruce used Rachel’s loss as an excuse to feel sorry for himself. The next time I watch The Dark Knight, I can’t imagine feeling happy knowing the consequences of Bruce, Alfred, and Gordon’s actions. 


He didn't stop his war on crime, he WON the war on crime, big difference. It was stated that crime was almost non existent in Gotham thanks to the Dent Act, it was so small that police alone could handle it, Bruce's whole goal was to make Gotham a better place, which he did. Also how does the Dent Act invade civil rights? it made it so some criminals could not be eligible for parole, the kind like Falcone who could easily use his connections to elude prison and be right back on the streets, with the Dent Act, ALL criminals, even the powerful mob bosses would stay in prison regardless of outside ties, it doesn't deny ALL criminals parole, just those who have ''friends in high places'' 
 


1. That’s why he wears a mask. Vigilantism is already a crime.

2. Batman may have been without a super villain, but I find it hard to believe that Batman could not have done good. Batman started off his campaign of justice in Batman Begins targeting street thugs. His goal was not just to take down the mafia and the Joker, yet when he captures Joker and the mafia, his quest is over somehow?

3. Which goes to my point about Bruce being a whiny quitter. It is a bad interpretation of Bruce Wayne, and I would find it hard to sympathize with any action movie hero like that. I’m pretty sure Gotham could have used him all along. 

1. He wasn't a criminal in The Dark Knight, he was a public hero, that's how he could just enter crime scenes that were full of cops without being arrested, that's why the Bat Signal was built, the police weren't gunning for him, they accepted him, however due to the events at the end of The Dark Knight, he WAS  a criminal and on the run.  
2. He wasn't targeting street thugs, they were Maroni's men. His goal was to clean up the streets of Gotham, to stop those who the regular law could not, namely Falcone, Maroni, Lau etc. However, as I said, thanks to the Dent Act, the law COULD now stop them by severing their ties to the outside and keep them in jail, the police could now clean up Gotham without Batman's help, and with the Joker gone, that only sealed the deal. 
 
3. But he wasn't a quitter, Gotham didn't need Batman any longer, however the minute it DID need him, he didn't hesitate to step back into the role. 
 


Nolan kept his Batman series pretty well grounded in reality. You can’t make Batman a regular old human and then say he can push through any physical ailment…because he’s Batman. That is bad writing. It doesn’t matter if it is a comic book movie.

Superman reversing time was stupid. Catwoman getting nine lives was stupid. Getting powers by being bitten by a radioactive spider is farfetched, but at least there is a quasi-scientific explanation for it. If Batman had said, I installed this super-sticky Bat-cartilage that I just invented into my knee, then it would still have been a little stupid, but it would have been much better.

I accept movies on their own terms in their own universes. If you tell me someone has superpowers, I will suspend my disbelief and accept that he has superpowers. If you tell me our hero is human and then have him act like he has superpowers, then I have an issue with your writing. 

So you believe that technology like the Arc reactor, the Bat, the Tumbler, Sonar city wide tracking devices, cell phones that could disable the security of an entire building are all possible, but a device that can allow a man with no cartilage to walk is far fetched? Nolan's Batman is grounded in more reality, but many devices used don't exist in this world, I don't know why you would question that one.  

I think having characters suddenly change their views on something for no other reason than another character dying is cheap writing. It is not completely impossible that this would happen in real life, but it is certainly very unlikely. More to the point, the whole angle of making Talia angry at her dad was unnecessary. The plot would have made much more sense if she was just the loyal daughter that Bruce never met. Sloppy writing. 


I think you're misjudging how angry Talia was at Ra's it's not like she hated him with every fiber of her being and sore a blood oath of vengeance against Ra's, she was upset yes, she was mad, of course, but i think most of all she was heartbroken of leaving the man that saved her, yet she didn't completely hate her father for it and in the end, he was still her father and she loved him. It's like if a dad tells a regular girl "you can't date that boy'' yeah, she's gonna be pissed, but she's not gonna be ready to kill dad because of it. 
 
 

I’m pretty sure Talia was in charge of Wayne Industries at the point at which she slept with Bruce, but I have been unable to find a summary of TDKR detailed enough to resolve my uncertainty. If she was in charge already, then it makes no sense for her to sleep with him. If she was not, then it makes sense. 


I think you're right there, If I recall he had given her stock enough to be a share holder in W.I so Dagget wouldn't take control, so yeah she was pretty much in charge, but who knows, maybe it was just to further gain his trust so he wouldn't suspect her or it could have been to make his misery at her betrayal, the only woman he got close to besides Rachel betraying him, even more personal. 
 

That would be fine if Bane and Talia didn’t mind Bruce actually escaping. I mean, the metaphorical prison is all well and good, and so is the idea that if you escape you’ve earned it, but Bane and Talia were not interested in being just. They wanted to torture Bruce. If they had posted guards at the top, Bruce would have had hope until the moment he made it out, so he would have still been fully tortured up until that point, but I have no doubt that if Bane and Talia had to choose between letting Bruce go or making sure he always had hope, they would crush his hope and keep him locked up. 


Again, if guards were there, people would soon realize, ''oh what's the point of even trying to escape if someone up there will just push me back down?"  Bane didn't THINK Bruce had any hope left, he had broken Batman physically, mentally and emotionally, a grave miscalculation on Bane's part. He knew that Bruce would heal physically, but he wouldn't have the will to successfully climb and escape, that is why Bane was so surprised to find out he did escape. 
 
 

Bane took away all of Batman’s other gear, and he obviously wanted Bruce crippled. It only makes sense that he would take Bruce’s leg brace thingamagigger. Also, the brace must run on electricity, and Bruce was in there for nearly five months. I didn’t see any electrical outlets in the cave…or any electricity other than that going to the television. Finally, I thought we saw Bruce pantsless, but perhaps we did not. I’ll take your word for it. You can make a case that Bane left him his leg brace for some reason and gave him an AC adapter for it, but it is a pretty flimsy case. 


This last one is just full of assumptions on your part, you didn't see Bane take away the leg device, so why would you just assume he would do it? Batman was already crippled enough by having his spine dislodge. Again you say the brace MUST run on electricity, why must it? did they ever say it did?  That's just another assumption,to me, unless they actually state that the brace needs electricity, I will believe that it doesn't.
#39 Edited by texasdeathmatch (13171 posts) - - Show Bio

"Hey cop, I know you've had no formal training or ever been in the League of Shadows, but here's the key to all my sh*t. Go crazy. I'm going to move to France with this broad I've only talked to for about 5 minutes."

#40 Posted by Queso6p4 (1430 posts) - - Show Bio

@PsychoKnights said:

@menaceforever:

(chuckles) Talia must have been really horny to want to sleep with the man she hated most in the world.

@Glitch_Spawn:

I don't know. As a stand alone movie, I would say it was pretty good. I can't give really good due to the underwhelming fight scenes and plot holes, but I'll give pretty good, but I still think it was a major disappointment when compared to its potential and the work Nolan did with The Dark Knight.

What should I read that would help me understand my issues?

@Queso6p4:

Agree with you on this. It was sorely lacking.

Glad to hear it.

Agree with this point too.

Thanks. I’m really surprised that people are defending the action of the Dark Knight Rises. It didn’t do much for me. There were a couple moments of, “Cool,” but they were short lived…like a second or so. No action scenes left me thinking, “Awesome!”

Aside from the plane hijack scene and the first fight between Batman and Bane I didn't feel astounded either but those moments are cemented in my mind.

Don't recall anyone really wanting Batman to come back.

The police officer, Blake I think, wanted Batman back. I recall for certain Blake talking to an orphan who asked, “Is he (Batman) going to come back?” Gordon clearly felt as if Batman had abandoned him.

Well, yeah, those two, of course, and that random boy who's brother was found dead, but as a city no one really missed him.

I think that was the point. The whole peace they'd come to appreciate was not only based on a lie, but also on the violation of people's civil rights. This is not okay and should be done away with. Also, this totally is in line with what Bane wanted to show in the first place, that Gothamites are corrupt, decadent people, who needed to be purged. Alfred's lie turned out to hugely backfire as it not only cause Bruce to linger in his depression, but also eroded the long-established trust between them.

I agree with everything you say hear except that I don’t think Bane particularly cared how corrupt Gotham was. Personally, I see him as simply wanting to make Talia happy, but there is certainly room for both interpretations of the character, and the movie never specifies if Bane is truly loyal to the goals of the League of Shadows.

However, even though I agree that the Dark Knight Rises worked well on thematically relaying the message that justice should not be based on a lie, it still leaves me with a bitter taste in my mouth regarding The Dark Knight. Now, rather than think of the end of The Dark Knight as a triumph, I am going to think of Bruce, Gordon, and Alfred’s actions as a failure…and I’m not sure I’ll ever be able to enjoy The Dark Knight as much again. When I see the final shot of Batman running away into the night, I’ll remember that his actions have led to the violation of civil liberties, intense guilt and feelings of abandonment in Gordon, and an early retirement for the Dark Knight. Lame.

Ok. I see what you mean there. I'm not sure if that'll happen to me but I guess I'll have to watch them all back to back and see.

Agree with you here. Even in TDKR, he still helps out even after retiring.

He did for the first five years, and then he neglected his responsibilities for the last eight years in order to feel sorry for himself…which left his business, and thereby his fortune, in shambles.

Sorry, that "R" was for Returns. Should've clarified that. I was just saying that in The Dark Knight Returns even though he retired he was still helping as best he could rather than the Rises' version of Batman who becomes a hermit in his mansion. Not too unreasonable given what happened with Rachel but still disappointing. : /

Before he lost his money he could've afforded cartilage injections even though we don't see that in the film.

Fair enough, but if that was the explanation, then it is sloppy for the writers not to tell us that. Good writing does not introduce a conflict for a character and then forget to resolve it. I think the leg brace was their only solution.

Agreed. Not sure why the brothers didn't catch/address this.

Totally agree with this too. That part made no sense to me because she could still carry on his work whether or not he was alive. That whole business of "there are many forms of immortality, i.e. children zahaaaa!" made me angry too because it was soo predictable and a huge cop-out. I think they should've just left out the whole Talia "twist" completely.

Yeah, I also saw Talia coming. However, I did like that Talia was in the movie, I just wish she had been handled better.

Yeah, I wouldn't have minded either, had she been done well, like you said.

This totally made sense to me. Her having sex with him cemented his trust in her. She knew he was particularly emotionally vulnerable and made her move.

I don’t recall the timeline of the film, and I’ve searched for it online. There is a big question in this regard for me, did Bruce give her control of the company before the sex scene? I though he had, and if he had, then it makes little sense for the affair. If not, then I suppose it makes sense though sleeping with someone you hate still seems like a bit of a stretch to me.

Fair enough, but I saw it more as complete dedication to a cause. You do whatever you have to do to enable success, and she did. Her bit about "the hidden blade that digs the deepest" or whatever she said comes to mind.

As Bane said in the movie, "Impossible." He didn't expect a man with a broken back to escape the pit. Remember, he thought Batman was broken both spiritually, and physically, and and it's hard for someone to recover from that, let alone in six months. This is a realistic expectation. Even if someone else managed to escape, and pull him out, his back's broken so what can he do? Also, if the only unaided escapee was the messed up child Talia, expecting no one else to escape isn't that much of a stretch.

Fair points all around, but I still think it would have been a sensible precaution to have someone standing around, or a video monitor, or someone on the inside with a transmitter. Can’t we have a little precaution from Bane and Talia? Just a little?

Definitely. Given how smart and calculating Bane was made out to be, this is a fair expectation.

Yeah, about that. :) This just has to be begrudgingly accepted as the replacement for Dr. Shondra Kinsolving.

I’m familiar with Shondra. I just read Knightfall in the past year. Good story.

(chuckles) I think they should have actually found a decent explanation for Bruce’s recovery. Let him see some actually experts or make it a long term recovery. Either way would be better than magical healing punches.

Yeah, I have no idea how they could've handled that without a further suspension of belief. Experts in the pit? Why are they even there to begin with? Isn't one doctor enough? Why would they have access to medical equipment/technology that could help Batman recuperate? I just don't know how they'd have dealt with this without making the movie feel longer, even more rushed, and more ridiculous. They'd probably have had to rewrite a good portion of the screenplay to accommodate that, I guess. Maybe they could've found a way to get his broken body out of the pit and then have taken him to see some experts? *shrugs* The whole part about Bruce's miraculous healing was always just weird to me. Even as a snot-nosed kid reading it in middle school it just seemed a bit-off. Yeah, I get what it was trying to say and do with Wayne, but even now, after re-reading it over a decade later it still comes off as strange.

#41 Posted by Jorgevy (5114 posts) - - Show Bio

@texasdeathmatch said:

"Hey cop, I know you've had no formal training or ever been in the League of Shadows, but here's the key to all my sh*t. Go crazy. I'm going to move to France with this broad I've only talked to for about 5 minutes."

HAAHAHHHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAH

#42 Posted by BatWatch (2366 posts) - - Show Bio

@BiteMe-Fanboy:

I would consider 6.5 a really low score. As much as I had problems with it, I'd probably give it an 8.0 on a ten point scale. IMDB, on the other hand, gave it a 9.2 when last I checked, which is a score few films can match. Star Trek, The Dark Knight, and The Avengers are a few with that sort of scale.

I don't regret seeing it in theaters, but I regret being really excited about seeing it in theaters.

@Manwhohaseverything:

I didn't hate the film, I just didn't love it, and I really wanted to love it.

Personally, I generally like Batman's portrayal in the comics. Occasionally, his feats do meet superhuman levels, and I don't much care for that, but I actually don't see it as being too far fetched for someone to be an expert in all the things he is an expert in. If you believe a guy has a ridiculously high intellect and he spends some of his most formative years (the early years of adolescence) training to be a master crime fighter plus the following eight years or so, I think you could get somebody who is an excellent fighter, detective, tactician, inventor, chemist, ect. Now, he still probably would not be on Batman's level, but it would not be quite as ridiculous as some seem to think.

All of that to say, I'm not one of those who asks to be toned down...except of course for those instances where he is, for example, stabbed in the back a dozen times, and then he recovers within a couple days and is ready to go back out on the streets with only a couple bandages. That is superhuman and stupid, but being an expert fight and detective, I don't think that is asking for too much.

@RainEffect:

The Bat action sequences with the truck doesn't ring a bell actually. I just asked my coworker who saw it with me, and he says he doesn't remember much action either. I recall Bruce using the Bat to stop the truck and then lift it off and explode. Meh. Am I forgetting something?

I did like the fight between Batman and Bane, but I didn't think it was great. I remember being generally pleased if not particularly impressed.

It is really a matter of taste. Trying to explain what makes an action scene engaging is almost as difficult as trying to explain why a particular joke is so funny. There is no accounting for taste, so I won't try to defend my criticism of the action scenes very much. Suffice to say, they didn't work for me.

@Guardiandevil83:

It bugged me too. I could make a list three times as long as the one I already provided of plot holes if I wanted to nitpick that sort of thing. I even left out, by mistake, the hole I thought was the biggest, why didn't Talia just blow the stupid city up in the first place? Are you really going to endanger your entire operation that you feel so passionately about that you are willing to lay down your life just to make Bruce suffer a tiny bit more because he will have five months of feeble hope? Really? I think he would suffer plenty watching his city go up in smoke...or if you killed the populace one by one.

Regarding your point though, I figured it was not completely unreasonable to think that Bruce could have the contacts and money to get back to Gotham quickly. I know Wayne enterprises was broke, but it would not be a strange precaution to have money set aside. As far as getting into Gotham, I think the largest problem was that nobody was trying to get across rather than that is was so hard to get across.

@ratman19:

For me, there are positives and negatives for both mediums.

@Rumble Man:

Glad to hear it. Feel free to share some of yours with me sometime.

@Joesoef95: I understand what you are saying. If I wanted to be a little more accurate, I would say that The Dark Knight Rises was a mediocre film considering all it had going for it. I mean on a ten point scale, I would probably give TDKR something in the neighborhood of an 8.0...and that is with true mediocre being around 5.0, but The Dark Knight Rises could have been so much better. It had a huge budget, great actors, a great director and writer, great source material, and a great established universe, yet with all that, they still put together a movie which did not do Batman's character justice, had uninspired fight scenes, and a more than your average amount of plot holes. It should have been much better, but I could not find a way to express all that in a title. (grins)

#43 Posted by BiteMe-Fanboy (7589 posts) - - Show Bio

But that score is coming from someone who doesn't really like Nolan's Batman. I enjoy them, don't get me wrong, I think they're very well made movies, but as I said before, I prefer it to be more based on the comics, rather than being told in a more 'realistic' way. They aren't bad films, not by a long shot, but they just aren't my cup of tea.

#44 Posted by The_Thunderer (2894 posts) - - Show Bio

@texasdeathmatch said:

"Hey cop, I know you've had no formal training or ever been in the League of Shadows, but here's the key to all my sh*t. Go crazy. I'm going to move to France with this broad I've only talked to for about 5 minutes."

I thought it was weird how they hoooked up after 10 mins as well

#45 Edited by texasdeathmatch (13171 posts) - - Show Bio
@The_Thunderer: Yeah, that relationship felt super forced, since she pretty much either stole from Bruce or betrayed him every time they crossed paths. Also, what the hell happened to Catwoman's random girlfriend? It felt like Chris completely  forgot about her during the 2nd and 3rd act of his movie.

I mean, honestly, it wasn't a terrible movie. But if you're going to follow up after the Dark Knight, you better do something f*cking amazing, which Nolan failed to do.
#46 Posted by The_Thunderer (2894 posts) - - Show Bio

@texasdeathmatch said:

@The_Thunderer: Yeah, that relationship felt super forced, since she pretty much either stole from Bruce or betrayed him every time they crossed paths. Also, what the hell happened to Catwoman's random girlfriend? It felt like Chris completely forgot about her during the 2nd and 3rd act of his movie.

I mean, honestly, it wasn't a terrible movie. But if you're going to follow up after the Dark Knight, you better do something f*cking amazing, which Nolan failed to do.

Exactly, she just conveniently disappears, Yeah, too much hype but i was good.

#47 Edited by Rumble Man (11119 posts) - - Show Bio
#48 Posted by Joesoef95 (315 posts) - - Show Bio
@PsychoKnights said:

@Joesoef95: I understand what you are saying. If I wanted to be a little more accurate, I would say that The Dark Knight Rises was a mediocre film considering all it had going for it. I mean on a ten point scale, I would probably give TDKR something in the neighborhood of an 8.0...and that is with true mediocre being around 5.0, but The Dark Knight Rises could have been so much better. It had a huge budget, great actors, a great director and writer, great source material, and a great established universe, yet with all that, they still put together a movie which did not do Batman's character justice, had uninspired fight scenes, and a more than your average amount of plot holes. It should have been much better, but I could not find a way to express all that in a title. (grins)

Fair enough
 
To each his own. Although I think we all could agree when it comes to movies this was a great a summer to be a comic book fan  :P
 
#49 Posted by They Killed Cap! (2243 posts) - - Show Bio

I totally agree, mostly because of plot wholes. I wanted this movie to be great, and on Nolan scale it really wasn't

#50 Posted by Mega_spidey01 (3078 posts) - - Show Bio

who was that girl with catwoman's?

why would batman trust john blake enough with the batcave he barely knows him?

batman & talia had no real chemistry i think that's why their sex scene felt forced.

bane and batman's fight scenes could have a better fight scenes

any catwoman was my favorite part of the movie.

hoping for batman beyond to be the next reboot batman movie.