Ranking Game of Thrones fighters

Cregan_Stark and I were talking that it would be interesting to make a GoT fighter list, so here it is :D

The meaning of this thread is to (objectively) make a list of all/most of the fighters that appear in GoT/ASOIAF. The thread will be divided in two phases.

Phase 1: Putting all the fighters in tiers.

Phase 2: Every tier is now permanent and there will be rankings(the best of a certain tier, the second best of a certain tier,...) per tier.

Gods

Arthur Dayne, Barristan Selmy, Jaime Lannister, Daemon Blackfyre, Aemon the Dragonknight, Fireball(TO BE DEBATED)

Legends

The hound, Robert Baratheon, The Mountain(TO BE DEBATED), Cregan Stark(TO BE DEBATED), Gwayne Corbray, Oberyn Martell, Khal Drogo(TO BE DEBATED), Garlan Tyrell, Simon Star Eyes(TO BE DEBATED), Florian the Fool(TO BE DEBATED), The Smiling Knight

Heroes

Mance Rayder, Qhorin Halfhand, Loras Tyrell(TO BE DEBATED), Tygett Lannister, Areo Hotah, Gerold "The White Bull" Hightower, Lyn Corbray, Bronze Yohn Royce, Rhaegar Targaryen, Brynden Tully, Brandon Stark, Greatjon Umber, Bronn, Jory Cassel(TO BE DEBATED), Balon Swann, Andrik the Unsmilling

Greats

Jon Snow, Obara Sand, Lyle Crakehall, Victarion Greyjoy(TO BE DEBATED), Benjen Stark, Maelys Blackfyre, Addam Marbrand, Gerold Dayne(TO BE DEBATED), Robb Stark, Edgas Varen, Tallad the Tall, Iron Emmet, Thoros, Balon

Experts

Eddard Stark, Jorah Mormont, Alliser Thorne,

People I don't know where to put

Lewyn Martell, Oswell Whent, Jonathan Darry, Randyll Tarly, Guyard Morrigen, Brynden Rivers, Duncan the Tall.

PS At this moment we are at phase 1, so name the characters you want to upvote and/or downvote and then we will discuss every character one for one.

@darthduelist9: I didn't get your message but yes I will make the tag when I get on the computer.

First I want to break down your tiers and guys that are in the wrong spots.

Tier 10 - These are all good. However Cregan Stark absolutely needs to be in this tier as Aemon the Dragonknight said Cregan was the finest swordsman that he ever faced. Also Fireball should be in this tier as well.

Tier 9 - Khal Drogo has absolutely no business being in this tier. I'm also not convinced on Visenya. This tier should include Simeon Star eyes and Florian the Fool. I think Aegon and his sisters should be omitted from this list completely.

Tier 8 - GreatJon Umber should lead this group, I think he would be the best out of all of the tier 8 fighters followed by Lyn Corbray, Gregor and Bronn. Victorian Greyjoy, Jory Cassel, Gerold Dayne Balon Swann and Addam Marbrand should all be in this tier. Loras Tyrell has absolutely no business being in this tier.

Tier 7 - this is where most fighters fall. Ned, Jon Snow, Loras, Robb, Brienne, Jorah, Tallad the Tall, Iron Emmett and many of the ones that you named should be here. Get rid of tier 6 and add them here.

There's also the current Kingsguard to rank, I can help you with those as well.

Weird you didn't get the message... Like I said, I think it's best to first debate the tier a certain character is in and then which place that character has in that tier. I will write down the ones that you think need an upvote/downvote and I disagree with (to give other people the chance to get in to the debat).

@darthduelist9: my buddy is going to tag people for me since I'm not home. So the debate should take off

@tparks@princearagorn1@the_red_viper@rogueshadow@pierpat@shenkuei@cregan_stark@rexorr

Okay, I'll have to think about it, but I think it would be better to maybe break it down into the following tiers:

• Gods - These are the absolute greatest of all time, Gods amongst insects, simply untouchable but for one another - Here I would have a handful of people like Arthur Dayne, Barristan the Bold and Aemon the Dragonknight.
• Legends - Phenomenally skilled fighters, far above the skill of any normal man. Here you'd have people like Robert Baratheon, Cregan Stark etc.
• Heroes - The great warriors of their time. I would place the Hound, Garlan Tyrell, Rhaegar Targaryen etc in this tier.
• Greats - Warriors of great skill, far beyond the common man, but perhaps not to the degree that they are worthy of songs. I would place guys like Bronn, Victarion Greyjoy etc in this tier.
• Experts - Skilled warriors, soundly above your average fighter. Guys like Rodrik Cassell, Jorah Mormont etc would go here.
• Fighters - Your common fighter, be it a Knight, Dothraki, Sellsword etc.
• Commoners - Any man who can hold a pitchfork. Basically everybody who lacks training.

To what degree should we consider potential in the tiering? For example I see Tumco Lho ending up in the Legends tier and Jon in the Heroes if they live long enough.

@rogueshadow: dude I love it. The category names a freaking awesome.

Agreed on Jon Snow and Tumco Lho

Thanks :)

@rogueshadow: what do you think of the list he made (tier names not included) and the suggestions that I made for them?

@rogueshadow: The tiering is awesome indeed. I'll try to change it when I got time(within the hour). I agree that you could take the potential of certain characters in consideration but let's keep that as last.

@cregan_stark: I agree on most, the only ones I disagree on, would be Cregan, Drogo and Loras.

While most knights from the higher end of great should best him in my opinion, I really feel he should be high up, his actual skill is really high-tier and I don't think it's fair to consider this as an A>B>C scale, there are guys who cannot beat somebody who I might place below them, simply because that individual is their perfect foil. For example, I'm sure that there are guys the Mountain would chew through that Oberyn would struggle far more against.

To me, Drogo was one of the most pure fantasy warriors in the whole series, the dude never lost a fight in his whole life in a culture where they were fighting day in and day out. With tens of thousand of Dothraki vying to be Khal, battles every other week... that's just... impossible, it's total fantasy,

Khal Drogo deserves to be in Legends on that alone for me, because if you take any of these guys out of their armour or if he knows how to deal with armour like Oberyn did, he could go toe to toe with anybody.

Cregan was the best swordsman Aemon ever saw, considering how many Knights he took on and how many battles the guy was in, that alone puts him in the Legends category for me, to be praised by probably one of the top 5 Knights of all time is incredible and GRRM clearly went out of his way to note this. However, we don't know enough outside of that to put him into the very top tier in my opinion.

Loras, well, I agreed with you for a long time that Loras wasn't all that, but GRRM has flat-out stated that Loras is one of the best knights in the series, and he included swordsmanship under that umbrella, it's pretty hard to argue with that when ASoIaF all comes from his head, it's not like a comic-book writer who has a run and then somebody else takes over, it's all his and he has said that Loras is a top-tier fighter.

@rogueshadow: I like an evaluation system with some flavour.

Thought Ned would be higher tbh but I never read the books.

Khal Drogo should be dropped down. Halfhand might be a 9 (going off books, not the wimp who survived by being mediocre in the tv show). Jon also sticks out as being better than all the 7s, maybe he's a low level 8? Loras also may be a 9. Was Florian actually that good of a fighter? Pretty sure Duncan is a 7.

(admittedly not always the best at power rankings)

He was pretty average in the books, 'competent' was how GRRM described him IIRC. They amped him for the show. If Jaime vs Ned were to happen in the books, it would go down just like Jaime vs Jory in the show.

@rogueshadow: I agree that Drogo has wicked skill, sadly his fighting style and weaponry hurt him severely. He loses to any good knight purely based on the equipment and style. I agree that if people were stripped down then it might be a different story, however having the armor and style is part of being a knight, we can't just take that away.

I can agree that we don't know enough about Cregan to put him into the absolute top tier but I hate bumping down a truly god tier fighter who gave Aemon the Dragonknight a run for his money.

He did name Jaime, Loras and The Cleganes as some of the best knights in the series. However he did state that each is the best at their particular area. I take that as meaning Jaime is great at sword play, Loras great at joust, etc. Loras simply lacks the feats sword wise for me to rank him any higher than 7.

@rogueshadow: I don't think Ned is that bad. He supposedly held his own with Arthur Dayne in the tower of joy 1 on 1 long enough for his help to defeat the others that were with Dayne.

@spambot: Tower of Joy was not a simple fight. We have no idea of what happened there. For instance did Howland Reed use poison arrows or warging? Was there actually a fight? There's no doubt that the KG were there to guard "the King" who was certainly infant Jon Snow, there's a possibility that a deal was made? Honestly we have no idea what happened but I'm fairly comfortable saying that it wasn't as cut and dry as a straight fight.

@cregan_stark: While I agree that there is a good degree of mystery surrounding what actually transpired in the tower of joy I do think at this point we sort of have to go by what was said to have happened which is Ned and few others going against 3 of the best KG fighters who ever lived and coming out alive. If the truth comes out to be different then I would go by that but as of now I think Ned should be respected as someone who can hold his own against some of the best fighters.

@spambot: it was 7-3 so it's not a great feat when you nearly had them outnumbered 2 to 1. Also Ned said that Dayne certainly would have killed him if not for Howland Reed which could mean many things.

I think what holds the most weight is that GRRM confirmed that Ned is nothing more than an above average fighter.

Sorry for the late reply, but basically this, there are too many unknown unknowns to consider the ToJ a testament to anybody's skill. As we don't know what happened and there are hefty implications that more than a simple skirmish occurred, the only logical solution is to annex it from considerations until we know in my opinion.

I'd put Ned on the lower end of expert, he's better than your average knight or man at arms, but he's nothing special. The fact that GRRM has flat out stated this to be so should hold the most weight as Cregan notes.

I get where you're coming from, but by that logic it becomes muddled, because then Bronn and Jon Snow would have to be placed lower than Drogo even though both obviously wouldn't beat Drogo, they lack the skill and do not possess the gear advantage brought about by armour, therefore if you place Drogo lower and then place Bronn and Jon beneath him, then Bronn is going to end up beneath people he would also defeat, which means these characters would have to be moved lower.

Basing it on an A>B>C system isn't the way to go.

I dunno, Loras came second in a melee of 150 Knights and only losing to Brienne, who used a highly unconventional move he wouldn't have been expecting and he also hit her far often than she hit him and he also slew both Robar Royce and Emmon Frey simultaneously.

Moreover, Martin has consistently placed Loras as one of the best fighters:

'... Warriors and Knights: he told me that he was sort of fed up when people wrote to him asking "who's the strongest fighter? Who's the best? Etc." He explained to me that there are some very strong fighters, he only mentioned 3: the 2 Cleganes and Loras...'

http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Entry/1264

"Well, LeBron James is the greatest active basketball player I suppose so the parallel in Westeros would be who is the greatest active swordsman. You can make a case for Jamie Lannister. You can make a case for The Hound or his brother Ser Gregor [Clegane] or Sir Loras [Tyrell], the Knight of Flowers. These are all first class Knights. Or even Ser Barristan The Bold [Sir Barristan Selmy]. These are all guys who are top at their own particular sport, which is swordsmanship and jousting, and all of the combat skills that attend knighthood."

In his opening statement, he directly states that he is talking about the greatest active swordsman, and he places Loras amongst them. I think it's clear the level he wants Loras to be at.

Yeah but we discussed this before, he only hit Brienne more than she hit him because her shield got destroyed right before they met. He had the benefit of blocking with a shield while she didn't.

I'm familiar with those interviews. In the second one he states that they are the best in their particular sport which I take to mean that they are good at different things. Also he didn't name knights such as Barristan, Garlan, etc who we know for a fact are better swordsmen than guys like Loras.

If he does want Loras to be on that level then he definitely hasn't written him that way. In fact he went out of his way to have his top swordsman on paper say that Loras isn't great.

@rogueshadow : Where would you put Brandon Stark the wild wolf ? The GreatJon and Yohn Royce ?

I more or less agree with you, I think it's worth noting Cregan was old when he faced Aemon, also I feel that "Gods" and "Legends" could make a single tier or atleast are closer and the same goes for "Heroes" and "Greats" .

We discussed it and never came to an agreement IIRC. She lost her shield because she lost her shield; that was her fault, it wasn't his, if anything that should be a testament to his skill for not losing the shield.

He was actually winning the fight, she just bullrushed him in a move most unexpected at a tourney melee. GRRM could have written that any way he wanted, he chose to write it as Loras having the edge until Brienne went into beast mode, much like her Dunk.

Even if we are to agree to disagree; he and Brienne were the only ones remaining of 116 Knights; that in itself is highly impressive.

As I said he also slew two highly skilled knights simultaneously.

He also flat out stated he's one of the best fighters in the top interview and in the bottom one. Preceding Martin's articulation of the fighters in the second interview, he delineated that he was referring to the 'greatest active swordsman', even if you take the second portion, he still states swordsmanship as coming under all Knightly attendances.

Jaime is arrogant as hell, but even he starts to acknowledge that Loras may have more ability than he's giving him credit for. Loras isn't a top-tier fighter, mainly because he's a knight of summer, he has no experience and I think there are guys he would struggle with or lose to, even though his technical skill with a blade is probably far higher than theirs; like the Great Jon for example.

He did name Barristan though, he didn't put him with the others because he's so old and he was referring to the greatest active swordsman.

Brandon Stark is categorically above Ned according to Martin, and he was clearly the a key fighter in the North of his generation, but we don't really know the full extent ability, I think that by virtue of being categorically above Ned and since he was depicted as being known for his combat prowess, he can go in greats, though if we find out more he could be in Heroes.

I feel like Gods is the absolute pinnacle, to distinguish between the best and the best of the best. There are probably less than 10 guys I'd put in here, the absolute best. Barristan the Bold, Arthur Dayne,

I dunno, I feel the same about Heroes and Greats, Heroes were the champions of their armies, whereas a Great would just be a great warrior amongst the Heroes. I dunno.

I think Royce and the GreatJon are probably somewhere in the upper half of Heroes, below the Hound and probably somewhere around Rhaegar maybe?

@rogueshadow: She lost her shield because went two on one against two Knights while Loras sat there and watched. Her shield was damaged while he was beating those two. She had only time to drop her shield after defeating the men before Loras was on her. The book makes clear that she was at a significant disadvantage due to her shield being broken and lost. This has nothing to do with Loras' prowess and everything to do with equipment.

BTW, I agree wholeheartedly on the bottom part about the GreatJon, Brandon and Bronze Yohn.

It's unfair to say everything to do with equipment when they were on horseback in a 1v1 encounter, thereby depleting the usefulness of a shield massively since you can only be attacked from one side, so while the shield was an advantage, it's unfair to attribute him outskilling her solely to that. It doesn't really counter-act the rest of the points in favour of Loras, he took out Robar and Emmon, is considered high-tier by Martin. I think he deserves to be in the lower area of Heroes personally. Taking out Robar and Emmon is actually a better feat than many characters have accomplished to be honest.

@rogueshadow: When you say he took out Robar and Emmon do you mean when he attacked them after Renly died? I don't really count that as a feat as he attacked them unaware, they believe that they were on the same side and couldn't have expected him to come at them.

@cregan_stark: We don't know exactly how it went down, all we know is that he went into a frenzy and took out two highly skilled knights singlehandedly; I think they'd have realised pretty quickly he was going at them when he drew his sword. At worst only one of them had the time to ready himself in my opinion, which places him in either the high end of experts or greats depending on which he took out first. Factoring in Martin's words, which to me, are pretty blunt, I think we have to view Loras as a higher tier warrior, even if we haven't seen him do that much to to show it.

It's mainly Martin's words that sway me, he always puts him in the conversation.

@rogueshadow: Exactly right that we don't know what happened, what we do know is that they were caught off guard and not at the ready for a fight. Also We don't know if Royce a) even had a sword or b) was fit to react to being attacked unaware. Royce had taken a head injury in his fight with Brienne (IIRC) he also fought to help them escape which could have been arrested or disarmed.

Way to many variables for me to count that as a feat.

They were not only Knights at a military encampment, but Knights of the Rainbow guard, there's no doubt in my mind they were armed. I don't really buy the unawares aspect, Loras isn't a stealth master, I picture him just whipping his swords out and saying 'Draw your swords, sers!' before taking them out, but I admit, that's just how I picture it going down, at worst he takes one out like I said, in that time, the other draws his sword and he takes him out too.

I remember him helping Brienne, but I didn't remember him taking a head wound or being arrested. Fair enough if that's the case.

Martin's word is still what sways me though.

@rogueshadow: I guess we are on the same page concerning the GreatJon, Yohn Royce and Loras all are mighty warriors of their time who find their places in "Heroes" tier. My problem comes from the differentiation between Heroes and Greats, I got your explanation which was perfectly clear however I think it's harder to separate some fighters from these tiers. For example I could easily see someone like Addam Marbrand among the "Greats" but the distinction between Yohn Royce and Victarion Greyjoy will be harder.

I also think that Brandon might find his place in Heroes tier although we still have to learn more about him, good to see we agree on it.

@rogueshadow: You and I agree on a lot of things ASOIAF related but Loras is something that we won't agree on for a long time I think. Sword wise I still like Jon Snow over Loras.

I know you probably like Loras in the Heroes but to me there is no chance that he should be harder than the Greats category.

There are too many in the Greats category that I think would defeat Loras if it came to swords in a fight to the death. I'll name a few: Bronn, Victorian, Gregor, Addam Marbrand, Lothor Brune, Quorin Halfhand, Mance Rayder, Hosteen Frey, Balon Swann, Jory, Jon, Brienne, etc.

@kal-l: I get what you're saying with the distinction between the two classes however I do think both Bronze Yohn and The GreatJon comfortably beat Victorian in a fight.

I also think it's possible for one of the greats to be able to beat a Hero.

@cregan_stark: Okay, agree to disagree. Where would you place Jon as of ADWD?

I agree it's hard to separate, like Cregan said, there are some fighters who could take out fighters who are technically above them due to having particular gear/fighting styles in my opinion. I just posited that as a potential tiering system.

I think Royce would take Victarion, Victarion's boon is his durability, strength and size/reach, which Royce can match while also bringing superior skill to the fight.

Side Note: I think Gregor would lose to many in a duel, but in a battle scenario, due to the compactness, Gregor's reach and sheer strength, he could overwhelm even the likes of Aemon Targaryen. I think this should be considered when placing him.

@rogueshadow: I would place Jon, Loras and Brienne in the Greats

God Tier: Wun Wun Weg Dar Wun and BRANDOR

Elite: Arthur Dayne, Barristan Selmy, Jaimie Lannister

Great: Robert Baratheon(May be on elite level), Clegane bros, Greatjon Umber, Bronze Yohn Royce, Jason Mallister, Garlan and Loras, Brienne, Mance Rayder

Good: Jon Snow, Jorah Mormont, Eddard Stark, Jory Cassel and a lot of others.

Average: Knights and other trained soldiers and sellswords.

@rogueshadow: we should compile a list first and then place them from there.

@cregan_stark@rogueshadow Is there an agreement on Loras? Guess he is the first character to debate...

@darthduelist9: I think that due to his lack of rankable sword feats and the consensus that many in the greats could beat him in single combat, that Loras should also go in the greats category below guys like Bronn, Victorian, Jorah, Balon Swann and Jory

More guys to add to the list to be placed are Meryn Trant, Boros Blount, Balon Swann, Andrik the Unsmiling (Rogue and I will disagree on this one), Lem, Lothor Brune.

@cregan_stark: Hmm okay.

Allright I will add them when I am on my PC.

@rogueshadow: @darthduelist9:

I see Trant as bordering between Expert and Great. Boros is surely in the expert category, the fact that he straight up abandoned his prince and ran away from Bronn (or was it Bywater) eliminates him from Greats.

Balon Swann should be on the upper end of Greats, he's probably the most deadly of current KG (not counting Robert Strong). I'd put him close to guys like Darkstar who he is on a collision course with.

Andrik the Unsmiling belongs in the Heroes. Now before people start screaming lack of feats, I'm going specifically by his reputation in the Isles as the best there is. He's gotten such respect from Victorian, Dagmer and Asha. He's a 7 footer and incredibly deadly, Euron even respects him enough to try and win him to his side. Andrik is on a collision course with Garlan and I believe he will defeat Garlan in single combat when they meet. I understand wanting to put him into Greats due to lack of feats however, I think that once the book comes out, he will undoubtedly be in the Heroes.

Lyn Corbray is similar to Andrik, next book we will really see how awesome he is.

I think Lem should be at the higher in of Experts. Beric And Thoros should both go to Greats.

Lothor Brune surely needs to be in Greats after what he did to the Fossoways.

You have Jon, Robb and Benjen in the Greats category but you put Eddard a tier below. What?

@sirdrprofessor: We are only guessing that Benjen is in the Greats, honestly he has no feats.

Jon should go to the Greats on the lower end along with the likes of Loras and Brienne. However I'm not sure Robb belongs there, he did curbstomp some wildlings but that's it.

However if we are in fact including battlefield prowess and command then Ned and Robb should be in the Heroes since they are two of the best commanders on this list.

@cregan_stark: And what puts Jon in the Greats? All he has done is beat Iron Emmet once (with a rage boost) and that was after he was getting beat by him a half a dozen times before. All I am saying is that Eddard is at least as good if not better than Jon, Robb, Benjen and Jory. After all Eddard has fought in 2 wars and has fought three of the deadliest swordsman in the world and survived (albeit with a numbers advantage).

Well, it is known that me and CS disagree on Loras. I think Martin consistently placing him as a high tier warrants Heroes in itself, I generally require some solid feats, but Martin's word trumps all feats for me.

A Few:

• Jon - Middle of skilled, he doesn't really much going for him other than being > Robb at the start of the books, basically when they were kids, killing Qhorin because he let him and getting owned by Mance Rayder, though Mance was glamoured, so Jon's perception of his reach would have been off, that said, it wasn't even close, Mance decimated him. At the end of the day, he's only 17. I don't think he's anything special in natural ability, but he's a hard worker and we saw Martin laying the seeds that he was training in ADWD, so I think he's got the potential to be in Heroes, but I don't think he's going to get there within the time-line of the books, which are probably only going to cover another two years tops. Jon advancing so quickly while dealing with everything else he'll be dealing with seems out of sync with the world of ASoIaF.
• Meryn - Meh, just skilled for me, he's done nothing but be deemed fierce IIRC.
• Blount - Fighter.
• Jorah - Somewhere in the low end of Greats or high end skilled seems fair, I feel like he's probably generally bottom of Greats, but with Longclaw and fighting for Dany he has it in him to take out high end Greats with tenacity and drive, maybe a low end Hero.
• Balon - Put him in Greats, even though he doesn't have feats, Jaime acknowledging his skill should count for something, Jaime wouldn't look twice at just an above average Knight in my opinion.
• Andrik - Heroes - Without hesitance Dagmer stated he is the greatest warrior on the Iron Islands, Asha which makes him >> Victarion, which places him somewhere in Heroes, though we can't know where.
• Corbray - Not willing to put Corbray in the same category as Andrik yet. I think he should maybe be removed from consideration until we know more, Lady Forlorn might be boosting his repute, I am not considering gear here.
• Thoros - High end Greats - Fought and survived in many battles despite being in the thickest parts of the battles, defeated the Hound in a melee, though he had a flaming sword. Potentially low end Heroes.
• Beric - Low end greats - Lost to a hungover and terrified Sandor and died in multiple battles, so he's not that great. But had some renown and still gave Sandor a decent fight, I don't think a generic knight of above average skill could do this, even considering his advantages.
• Oberyn Martell - He beat the Mountain, but his gear and style are the perfect foil for Gregor, as they were for Yronwood, I don't see him performing nearly as well against the Hound. I put him in the middle of Heroes.
• Dunk - Cregan doesn't want me to spoil D&E, but in TWOIAF, Dunk does something really impressive against a guy who is basically as the equivalent of a really high tier fighter, so at some point he obviously gets solid training, Dunk is high end Heroes and maybe Legends as we learn more.

I threw these together quickly, so forgive any forgetting of feats.

There are a lot of guys and others haven't done enough for me to place them higher, though they have the potential to when we see more of them. Some guys I don't think should be considered yet, like Darkstar, all we know is that he is the most 'dangerous man in Dorne' which could mean anything, Littlefinger could be titles the most dangerous man in Westeros, doesn't make him a warrior. Too much speculation for a lot of people for me, need to see more of them.

Also, you should do another group for archers; Anguy, Jhalabar, Brynden Rivers etc. It would be considerably smaller but still.

@rogueshadow: We agree on much but Loras just isn't one of them lol, I don't know if that'll change much until we see some feats from him.

I'm not quite sold on Dunk being in Heroes and I'm definitely not sold on him being In legends from what we've seen. He wasn't really a match for Brightflame or Longinch, generally he wins by dropping his sword and going hand to hand which is his greatest advantage. He had some good showings at the end of TMK but was curbstomped in the joust. I do think that if we see more of him, he will continue to progress but from what I've seen, he belongs in the greats.

@sirdrprofessor: @rogueshadow:

Jon's resume:

Curb stomping Wildlings in the frost fangs

Defeating Halfhand. Yes Halfhand was holding back a bit but he made it realistic, the Wildlings knew his prowess so he had to fight well enough for them to believe it.

Defeating wights

Defeating numerous Wildlings in battle.

Curb stomping possibly the best swordsman in the watch. When Jon cut lose, Iron Emmett was no match for him.

He did Lose to Mance but he was at a huge disadvantage there.

As for Jory. Jory is without the shadow of a doubt in the greats, he's nowhere near the level of Ned, Robb or Jon. Everyone talks of Jory as one of the top fighters in the north. Ned states that Jory is 100 times the swordsman that Ser Hugh is. Jory performs well in The Tourney of the Hand against the top Knights in the realm even though it was most likely his first. Jory cuts himself free of the Lannister even though they were outnumbered 20 to 4, he only died because he went back to save Ned instead of listening to Ned's pleas for him to stay away.

@cregan_stark: Do you want me to tell you why I place Dunk so high? Because last time you said that you didn't want any spoilers.

Ned has fought in two wars, always in the middle of the fighting as he taught Robb to do. Also, surviving a fight with the sword of the morning and two other kingsguard is a great feat despite Ned's numbers advantage.

@sirdrprofessor: Yes it was a surprise attack, that is more than we've seen tons of others do on panel.

He did have Ghosts help in beating the Halfhand, I never made the comment that Jon was better however he held his own against one of the top 10 - 15 swordsman before Ghost got involved.

Fire is the only way to kill a knight. "Getting owned" isn't terrible considering the other wight was able to kill black brothers before going down.

You are oversimplifying the battle of the wall.

I know that Emmett had beat Jon in the past, which is why I said that when Jon went all out, he curbstomped Emmett. There is no such thing as a "rage boost", Jon was pissed off and went all out and the result was him curb stomping Iron Emmett. If you want to call Jon not holding back as a "rage boost" then that's fine but it's absolutely part of him as a swordsman and can't possibly be discredited.

Jon's disadvantage was that Mance was glamored to look like a much smaller man. Jon's eyes could not perceive Mance's true form and the reach longer than what Jon expected. This is why Rattlesnaked seemed so fast. If you think you are fighting someone who is 5'6" and that person is really 6' then you'll be thrown off.

The hand of the kings own squire is not a no name. Jory being 100 times better than an anointed knight is saying something. Also that is just one of the things I listed, I'm not sure why you focused only on that....