Questions for the Male Viners

Hang on let me put on my wife beater before popping open a Stella! :P

All right I'm back. Now having been reading comics regularly for 5 years, I won't try and deny that comics, particularly the Big Two like DC and Marvel cater to a male audience. The women are slender, curvy and often dress ostentatiously . Seriously who fights crime in high heels? Anyway the females in comics tend to be represented as eye candy. That's irrefutable. Some artists can draw females as beatiful, slender and graceful in their artwork but of course the sexualization of women does sell comics. And the males make me wish that my time running and on the rowing machine gave me their physique! I suppose it adds to the fantasy of the stories. Personally, now that I've fully refined my comic tastes, I go for good stories over what the characters actually look like. As for realism, I don't really mind the sexualization. Yes there are those who complain but good stories are more important as well as keeping the comic industry afloat and if sexualization does that, well all I'll say is it needs to be used in good taste.

@Raiiyn:

How do you feel about sexualization in comics? Not just for men, but women as well?

I don't think that there's anything necessarily wrong with sexualization as long as the presentation is appropriate for the context of the story you are telling.

For example, the opening issues (before the creative team switch) of the relaunched VOODOO title is, I think, a wonderful example of how to do sexy right. The book opened in a nightclub scene where it was appropriate for overt sexuality, yet played with our expectations with some great sequences--the view of Voodoo dancing as reflected in the sunglasses of the sleazy undercover cop during repeated close-ups on his face was a fantastic inversion of the . It also made sure to build the character's personality amidst all that sexuality and then switched over to a relatively practical "superhero" outfit once the sexy-time was over. When the character needs to be sexy, it is sexy, when the context isn't right for it, she is serious. It was the title I was most worried about being over-sexualized and yet it was the most successful in its handling of sexuality.

Compare that to the trainwrecks of the relaunched CATWOMAN and Starfire in RED HOOD AND THE OUTLAWS: overt sexualty regardless of the context, ridiculous impractical outfits all the time, random posing and posturing that serves no purpose in the context of the scene and is simply there to titillate the reader, unsubtle sex scenes that do nothing to highlight character personality and instead seem embody male fantasy. And what was done to Starfire was especially galling as the character was apparently transformed from her "free love" roots into a frigid, "fun sucks" sex-bot.

There's nothing wrong with cheesecake generally, but the presentation has to be appropriate to the context of the story and the scene. Otherwise it can quickly become degrading.

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Do you think there is any? Do you think there is none? Do you feel that one gender is catered to more then the other?

I think it's rampant and clearly slated toward a male audience. The male characters are idealized just as often as female characters, but far less frequently are they sexualized for the benefit of a female audience the same way female characters are for the male audience. We get a lot of Hulks and Thors and Batmans, and not enough Catmans and Nightwings. Although, it should be noted, that even the sexualized male characters are not expected to wear thongs and stripper wear.

Also, you never hear the argument that sexuality is a core quality of a male character the same way you do for a female character. I grow weary of hearing "sex-positive feminist" male comic readers arguing that certain female characters HAVE to be sexualized and that by desexualizing them or their costumes (e.g., Power Girl, Ms Marvel) you are somehow "degrading" the character by stifling her "right to be sexy." (The most recent example in the comments of this article here.) This is just a call for good ol' fashion cheesecake dolled up in feminist rhetoric. It is not "slut shaming" to put a character in a more practical costume that's appropriate for a broader range of contexts or for the general audience, which is by definition all-ages. There's a fine line between defending a woman's right to be sexy and demanding that she be sexy, or acting as if sexualization is her defining characteristic.

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Would you still read comics if all the heroes looked like average joes? Do you feel that comics need more realism?

I think it depends on what story you're trying to tell. I think creators need to always match presentation to context. We're past the point where you can throw a chick in stripper-wear out to battle crime and not comment on it. Unless you're being ironic, you shouldn't do that without the expectation that you're going to get called on it.

I think female characters are oversexualized when compared to male characters, and anyone who denies it is rather blind.

How do you feel about sexualization in comics? Not just for men, but women as well? It's okay to have some, we are sexual beings, humans.

Do you think there is any? There's some more in some comics and with some characters or even depending on the writer/artist.

Do you think there is none? There is some. The degree of it depends on the character and comic etc...

Do you feel that one gender is catered to more then the other? Obviously there's a bit more leaning to the male side but it's not that big of a difference.

Would you still read comics if all the heroes looked like average joes? If all of them were average? NO. If some were, I'd read as long as the story is interesting and it fits

Do you feel that comics need more realism? Yes in certain things. Im not saying I want the powers explained with pseudo-science but the characters in comics should feel more real, like they actually could exist no matter they have powers or not. Id like to see more girl's next door, thin body types in women and maybe some guys with beer bellies.

@Raiiyn said:

How do you feel about sexualization in comics?

It's clearly evident in comics.

Do you feel that one gender is catered to more then the other?

Yes and no, but to put it bluntly, it's more stand-out when referring to the female characters. For the men, it's merely the fact that every single characters is drawn as supremely muscular, perfectly in shape, no flaws, extremely good looking, etc. It's not that much of a problem, but it's odd that most artists tend to take the more "juiced-up" appearance rather than a realistic approach. It makes sense when drawing characters such as Superman, Hulk, Hercules, Thor, etc but for characters such as Spider-Man, Batman, Daredevil, it's not necessary as it doesn't suit their style.

As for women, the sexualization is extremely present. Personally, I find it more respectful when a female character can wear a jacket and jeans and still be portrayed as 'attractive". Why do they have to be drawn as nearly nude to be shown as independent, powerful, or to even be noticed. It's not a problem, but it's obvious that the majority are drawn that way to appeal to sexual instincts of men.

Would you still read comics if all the heroes looked like average joes?

Like I said, not all characters have to be average joes, but there's no reason for them all to look like Arnold Schwarzenegger in his prime.

Do you feel that comics need more realism?

Depends on the story, and the characters. The reason why most people, at least myself, find comics so invigorating is that escape from reality. It's a different world, a place where anything can happen and super-heroes can exist. Realism is fine but to an extent.

How do you feel about sexualization in comics? Not just for men, but women as well? i feel that there is to much sexualization for some charecters like catwoman, it gets annoying i wanted to read a comic book not a playboy magazine.

Do you think there is any? yes

Do you think there is none? no

Do you feel that one gender is catered to more then the other? ya since most people who read comics are male.

Would you still read comics if all the heroes looked like average joes? well i guess, as long as its not to drastic, im okay with changes like what they did with supes in action comics.

Do you feel that comics need more realism? a little bit, like how supes was able to read every medical book ever published in under 5 minutes, i found that kinda stupid. and how damian is able to take out people twice his age easily. they should've made him like 15 or 16.

• How do you feel about sexualization in comics? Not just for men, but women as well? I really have no problems with it, sure it can get annoying if they're sexually posing the character in every other panel, but it's not like it ruins the overall story. Which is the main thing I care about in comics. (Unless the book was made just to be sexy and nothing else, then that's just stupid.)
• Do you think there is any? Of course.
• Do you think there is none? Nope.
• Do you feel that one gender is catered to more then the other? Female characters are easily more sexed up than male characters, most likely has to do with the people working in the industry mostly being male, and the consumer base being predominantly male as well.
• Would you still read comics if all the heroes looked like average joes? Probably. As I've stated before, the main thing I care about in comics is story, not really how the characters look. Appearance is just a slight attraction to the books. For some reason I enjoy seeing these near perfect, almost larger than life characters overcoming problems and situations. Them looking good while doing so is just a little bonus, I mean, I wouldn't want to read a Superman book if Superman looked like Sloth from The Goonies. The characters are sort of like idols that I (and many others) want to strive to be like.
• Do you feel that comics need more realism? Nope. There are plenty of realistic comics already, you just have to know where to find them. I don't come to a superhero book for realism, I come to dive into a universe of the fantastic.

@Raiiyn

How do you feel about sexualization in comics?

It's whatever to me. I really got no opinion on the matter. I don't read comics for pretty, half-naked people, (that's what T.V. is for. (joking)). But I'm not someone who gets offended by it either, as long as it's not crossing the line. But most comics have warnings of such content, so again, it's whatever for me.

Not just for men, but women as well?

Yes but it's obviously more slanted towards female characters than male characters, but it does exist for both.

Do you think there is any?

Absolutely

Do you think there is none?

In some comics possibly, but I don't know of any off the top of my head.

Do you feel that one gender is catered to more then the other?

Yes. Due to there being more male readers of comics, I think it favors them more so than female readers.

Would you still read comics if all the heroes looked like average joes?

Do you mean average looking? Like no costumes or perfect physiques? If so then yeah.

Do you feel that comics need more realism?

Honestly? No. If I want to read something with realism then I'd read the news paper. I read comics to escape realism for a few moments.

**pops open her stella**

I prefer Blue Moon, or Guiness. But hell, let's be honest, the best beer is an opened one! :-)

@Raiiyn:

How do you feel about sexualization in comics? Not just for men, but women as well? I don't care about it its escapism for the audience Christ's sake.

Do you think there is any? Yes.

Do you feel that one gender is catered to more then the other? Well considering its very male-oriented genre. Ironically enough sexualized females are most likely to draw cries from than sexualized males.

Would you still read comics if all the heroes looked like average joes? Nope.

Do you feel that comics need more realism? If its to establish rules in continuity, fine. But I wouldn't read a comic about the hardships of a fictional character when I have to deal with my own.

Titties and ass everywhere, and people wonder why girls get turned off from reading comics.

Justifying it by pointing at the rare Dick Graysons(who are usually fully dressed and sleeping with every woman they meet), is stupid.

How do you feel about sexualization in comics?

I feel it's important for both genders to find the heroes of the opposite sex at least somewhat attractive; it's a fictional story about the best, brightest, bravest, and usually most charismatic beings in the universe, they better be at least tolerable, or have some plot reason as to why they look ugly as hell.

Not just for men, but women as well?

I don't think this is a complete question.

Do you think there is any?

Of course there's sexuality in comics; there's sexuality everywhere. That's because we're sexual beings. It' not a crime to admit that.

Do you think there is none?

I think there is sexuality in comic books.

Do you feel that one gender is catered to more then the other?

Of course. Men have the upperhand in comic books and videogames (usually) in terms of sexual marketing; it's because, statistically, many more men are interested in these venues than women. It's simply marketing. It'd be the other way around if women were the main buyers; conversely, you could ask if people are offended that Barby and dollhouses are often catered to the younger female humans amongst us. The answer is probably no, and that is because it's not discrimination, it's marketing to your clientele. While it may be somewhat obscene in some venues, it's not a slam to either gender, but rather a slam to morality as a whole; this is because either gender can and would be used equally to market products based on sexuality if given the opportunity.

So when you're offended about almost nude characters in a game, don't be offended because they're naked women; be offended that they're naked BEINGS. Be offended at the sexuality, period, rather than the target of the sexuality.

Would you still read comics if all the heroes looked like average joes?

Yes, but they'd lose a lot of appeal and I'd lose a lot of interest, because it's not super encouraging to read about Mr. Blah and his army of Meh men; average people aren't interesting unless it's specifically written to explain a portion of the human condition you don't understand, which is why so many books about normal people do sell; however trying to make them into literal superheroes in said books would be deemed boring, toned down, monotonous, and unreal.

Do you feel that comics need more realism?

In certain ways; common sense should be used much more often, especially by the "intelligent" heroes or villains, and villains shouldn't monologue. Ever. Seriously, when was the last time you heard of an Al Qaeda leader spilling the beans to a CIA agent just because he wanted to feel special? Villains should be written to feel special just by getting away with crimes and by hurting the heroes while doing it. They shouldn't be so insecure that they have to receive validation from the very people they're plotting against. It makes them seem week and it gives a high amount of credence to the notion that comic books are for children, and that the heroes always win, not because they're very skilled or powerful but because it's simply written that way. Solving these issues would eliminate 95% of PIS and WIS in comic books and open them to a larger, more mature audience at large (not that the people here aren't mature, but many people scoff at comic books as being childish or too expensive for what they contain).

@Raiiyn said:

@Lvenger said:

Hang on let me put on my wife beater before popping open a Stella! :P

All right I'm back. Now having been reading comics regularly for 5 years, I won't try and deny that comics, particularly the Big Two like DC and Marvel cater to a male audience. The women are slender, curvy and often dress ostentatiously . Seriously who fights crime in high heels? Anyway the females in comics tend to be represented as eye candy. That's irrefutable. Some artists can draw females as beatiful, slender and graceful in their artwork but of course the sexualization of women does sell comics. And the males make me wish that my time running and on the rowing machine gave me their physique! I suppose it adds to the fantasy of the stories. Personally, now that I've fully refined my comic tastes, I go for good stories over what the characters actually look like. As for realism, I don't really mind the sexualization. Yes there are those who complain but good stories are more important as well as keeping the comic industry afloat and if sexualization does that, well all I'll say is it needs to be used in good taste.

Catwoman used them to her advantage pretty well ;P And agreed.

@Gibbet said:

@Raiiyn:

So, I'll get straight to the point here:

• How do you feel about sexualization in comics?

Don't mind as it keeps to a believable level, if a sufficiently powered character wears fanservicey clothing its acceptable (power girl/ms marvel) because it makes sense in that way as they have no worries of getting in harms way, but less powerful characters wearing that to show some ass (psylocke I am looking at you) when it offers no advantage at all is just silly.

• Not just for men, but women as well?

Men needs more actually, what happened to the bare bodied heroes of the classic age, isn't tights and spandex to restrictives. We need nudists here.

• Do you think there is any?

Duh. Most writers are male, most readers are currently male but since there is an influx of female readers they need to be serviced too (more nightwing ass and hot model males for them)

• Do you think there is none?

**** no

• Do you feel that one gender is catered to more then the other?

Males, most readers and writers happen to be.

• Would you still read comics if all the heroes looked like average joes?

Depends on the context. Does it make sense? reality warpers don't need to be buff but someone on the peak human who fights crime everyday needs to be at least fit or athletic to combat crime and live.

• Do you feel that comics need more realism?

Depends, none of that real world affecting comic world crap either (I want a comic where super geniuses affect the world). Social changes are iffy, but diversity is okay.

I pretty much agree with most of this.. though I don't know that I want more bare-chested males O-o

@Jorgevy: How does a guy with a beer belly kick ass? I mean I am all for realism when it fits the MO of the story line.. but to have frail people break noses? Or heavier men/women run for long periods of time? I mean, there needs to be athleticism or it just makes no sense.

@Funrush: My above point to Jorgevy, why shouldn't they be physically fit? That goes for men and women. It needs to make sense for the character. I think Gibbet said it nicely.

Oooh - yeah I agree!!

There is definitely place and opportunity for realism - for un-buff heroes and what not. However, a vast majority of super-characters need to be athletic - not only does it make sense, but it's MORE realistic. As you said - context.

I saw a supergirl comic and it was just like, eye candey for the whole thing. Every page had an underwear shot+boobs atleast 5 on a page.

Not arguing, as im male. But when I see this,

I can only think, this is only written to please men and get sales.

@Hawkeye446: @Raiiyn:

you guys missed my point, I want realism in some things. Obviously Batman and other peak humans need to be fit. Kryptonians, Viltrumites, Asgardians, all have different metabolisms and all.

but seriously, why can't a guy with let's say, telekinesis, be fat? or just not fit at all? it would made sense, he doesn't need to move his body that much. get what Im saying? sometimes some characters are athletic and fit without any real explanation. Cap is fit because of his powers, Bats because of his training, but I mean, seriously, people in the Comic book world don't get fat or unhealthy no matter what? even if it doesn't pertain to their skills/powers?

@Raiiyn: You know struggling for job and college at the same time... Stuff that occasionally I had to deal with, why should I been reminded of that in fiction as well?

@Raiiyn: well, that's the thing, if it needs to make sense, not if it's plot convenient. Being fit to run after criminals is plot convinient. Some one with powers that make him/her able to capture someone without needing to run, would probably not be very fit

@Strider92: just happened the same to me, when you quoted Raiiyn

@Strider92: we need to call the Comic Book GhostBusters!! I think one of the members has to be Reed Richards...

I hate sexism in comics, it can be disgusting to see how woman are seen in comics sometimes.