#1 Edited by Flamingo117 (16 posts) - - Show Bio

I lied on the title!  My true claim is that characters above SSJ3 are FTL.
 
Alright, alright. I'm here to settle this petty argument.

I recall asking before how you can say powerlevels correlate with speed. The pro-DBZers insisted they were right without actual proof but childish speculation.

But I can actually prove the relationship between power levels and speed have relationship WITH Math. With this, I also prove that SSJ2 Goku is FTL while SSJ Goku isn't. This is a simple proof with no bullshit. Please take your time to read this.

When Goku first started out to cross snake-way, his power level was 334 without his weighted clothes. He crossed 1,000,000 km in 177 days. That means he was traveling at speed 235.404 km/hr.

When he finished training with King Kai, his power level was 9,000. He crossed 1,000,000 km in 2 days. He traveled at speed 20,833.33 km/hr.

Now = 334 : 235.404 km/hr to

9,000 : 20,833.33 km/hr

When you divide 9,000 by 334, the multiple is 26.9. If speed and power level have a linear correlation, their division should also yield the same 26.9. BUT IT DOESN'T! The division of the speed results in 88.5.

This means that every power level increase by 1 increases speed by 2.42 km/hr!

And we aren't even considering an EXPONENTIAL "r" relationship, which can mean even greater speeds. But let's focus on what we have now. Our "r" is still a constant 2.42.

We can now come up with this equation:

Speed in km/hr given power level = (x - 334)*2.42 given x = power level

SSJ Goku had a power level of 150,000,000 according to the Daizenshu. This means that, according to our equation (plug 150,000,000 into x), he had a speed of 362,999,191.72 km/hr. Speed of light is 1.07925285 × 10^9 km/hr. Goku is therefore slower than light by a lot.
-------------------EDIT----------------------------------

However, if we take his later forms such as SSJ2/SSJ3 (SSJ has a x2 increase from SSJ1 and SSJ3 has a x4 increase from SSJ2 according to the Super Exciting Guide Story Volume), we are now dealing with an FTL SSJ3 Goku easily. At SSJ2, Goku's speed is still below the speed of light.

 BUT
At SSJ3, his power level should be 150,000,000 x 8 = 12 x 10^8. His speed is now 2.903 x 10^9 km/hr. He is now faster than light speed!

#2 Posted by XImpossibruX (5154 posts) - - Show Bio

Hi, this was well done but should be on Animevice.

#3 Posted by SpeedForceSpider (902 posts) - - Show Bio

Been done too many times on Animevice.

#4 Posted by Flamingo117 (16 posts) - - Show Bio

Oh...sorry, I am new lol. So...the exact same proof was done on Animevice? Is it commonly known that SSJ2+ characters are FTL and can fight Superman level beings?

#5 Posted by XImpossibruX (5154 posts) - - Show Bio

@Flamingo117 said:

During Goku's battle with Cell, he used IT to escape a situation. Cell asked about IT and eventually taunted Goku with his own crazy speed claiming "I don't need IT with my speed"

Sorry I can't pick up the scans, but if someone else can, that would be great!

This is fan translated, the actual Manga says something along the lines of "Instant Transmission is good, but I've got my own speed"

#6 Posted by RedLanternSuperman (348 posts) - - Show Bio

@Flamingo117 said:

Oh...sorry, I am new lol. So...the exact same proof was done on Animevice? Is it commonly known that SSJ2+ characters are FTL and can fight Superman level beings?

Actually they reached Superman level at Frieza saga.

Able to escape at an instant and outspeed light.

#7 Edited by Flamingo117 (16 posts) - - Show Bio

^Not sure what that scan proves as there is no quantifiable proof from that scan.Piccolo may have well been exaggerating. That's the kind of discussion I want to avoid.

Sorry!

#8 Edited by Laurcus (1299 posts) - - Show Bio

@Flamingo117: I has a question. What do you think of Supreme Kai's claim that he is 1000 times stronger than Frieza, thus putting his power level at 120 billion?

Your math is solid and I like it, but I have a few corrections/additions. Super Saiyan 2 is a x100 power increase, or twice as much as SS1, while SS3 is a x400 increase, or 4 times as much as SS2. This is stated in the Super Exciting Guide Story Volume. Instant transmission has been shown to be teleportation, not FTL travel. When Goku claimed that it was light speed, that was a dubbing error. We know it is true teleportation because it has been able to cross vast distances, and even into other dimensions in an instant. For example, Goku taking Cell to King Kai's planet.

Another thing to note is Goku may have still been FTL as a Super Saiyan 1. Super Saiyan forms are, as you know, just a multiplier. They work off of base power level. Goku has gotten very significant power increases from Zenkais, (recovering from injuries) and training. From his know power increases, a single Zenkai, (his fight against Ginyu) has made him as much as 33 times stronger. That's too significant to discount. Another thing to note is that speed is likely variable. Just like energy blasts can have more power dumped into them to increase the potency, it seems that DBZ characters can achieve bursts of speed by spending more energy. And logically, there's no reason why they couldn't.

On a personal note, I believe Goku shows FTL dodging skills during his fight with Burter and Jeice, which would suggest exponential speed increases, or at least some kind of increasing returns.

#9 Posted by RedLanternSuperman (348 posts) - - Show Bio

@Flamingo117 said:

^Not sure what that scan proves as there is no quantifiable proof from that scan.Piccolo may have well been exaggerating. That's the kind of discussion I want to avoid.

Sorry!

It really is proof because if Goku was going anything below light speed he wouldn't of escaped the attack and been hit by the light ball.

Note Piccolo says "Super speed, the Instant is exploded" this tells us that Goku did this all in one swift move at an instant, and broke out o it with speed alone.

#10 Edited by Laurcus (1299 posts) - - Show Bio

I believe a much better example of FTL speed is this.

Skip to about 1:30. You can't tell me that isn't FTL. Especially considering how fast Burter was.

#11 Posted by Hazlenaut (1960 posts) - - Show Bio

You do know there was thread made before talking about the speed. I would state more against your clam but I feel like a broken record. Everyone knows the pattern gong to be right but you assist on doing this. I may as well ask this question. If their speed is sprint speed how far can they go before they will slow down or stop?

#12 Edited by XImpossibruX (5154 posts) - - Show Bio

@Laurcus: @Flamingo117: Guys heres an interesting Goku speed scan

It's a much better scan then an anime video.

Dodging Recoomes attack and moving so fast, he goes behind Jeice and Burter and even outspeeds the scouter.

#13 Posted by nickzambuto (12688 posts) - - Show Bio

Goku > Superman.

/thread

#14 Posted by buttersdaman000 (9334 posts) - - Show Bio
@Flamingo117:  
Thank you for being one of the more.....reasonable DBZ fans i've seen in awhile. The others seem to think attack names, panel-by-panel translations, and timed intervals actually prove some type of point lol 
I don't agree with everything youre saying but its better than what we usually get here......one question....this is all travel speed, correct? Because I don't think there are any solid indications of comparable reaction speed in DB. 
#15 Edited by Flamingo117 (16 posts) - - Show Bio
@buttersdaman000 said:

@Flamingo117:  Thank you for being one of the more.....reasonable DBZ fans i've seen in awhile. The others seem to think attack names, panel-by-panel translations, and timed intervals actually prove some type of point lol I don't agree with everything youre saying but its better than what we usually get here......one question....this is all travel speed, correct? Because I don't think there are any solid indications of comparable reaction speed in DB. 

Hahaha! Yes, that's how I feel also. A lot of these people who post scans don't seem to understand what concrete proof is. And yes, what I'm claiming is travel time. I'm guessing reaction time could be faster due to adrenaline. 
I failed to consider that SSJ2 is actually a 100x increase in strength from SSJ1 from @Laurcus's Super Exciting Guide Story Volume. That still proves my point further, but it doesn't change the fact that SSJ1 Goku is not FTL.
Which part of my proofs do you not agree with though?
#16 Edited by SMDfanboys (158 posts) - - Show Bio

@BlastCore9 said:

I've read alot of DBZ manga and most of the DBZ feats that fans use to prove light speed are usually speculative and vague at the very best. Not saying weather Goku is a light speeder or not, just saying I've never seen any concrete evidence.

It's because DBZ manga doesn't have a narrator going in great detail about abilities like in comics do, so they have to use powerlevels and feats to prove points.

@buttersdaman000 said:

@Flamingo117: Thank you for being one of the more.....reasonable DBZ fans i've seen in awhile. The others seem to think attack names, panel-by-panel translations, and timed intervals actually prove some type of point lol I don't agree with everything youre saying but its better than what we usually get here......one question....this is all travel speed, correct? Because I don't think there are any solid indications of comparable reaction speed in DB.

If anything Combat speed in DBZ is way faster then travel speed.

And Like I said there is no narrator in DBZ, or characters giving their own personal thoughts and don't guide you through what feat they are preforming, like in comics.

For example Superman is guiding you thought the feat he is preforming. DBZ doesn't do this.

Because of this DBZ debators have to use speculation and have to use powerlevels or feats to prove themselves.

#17 Posted by SMDfanboys (158 posts) - - Show Bio

@Flamingo117 said:

^Not sure what that scan proves as there is no quantifiable proof from that scan.Piccolo may have well been exaggerating. That's the kind of discussion I want to avoid.

Sorry!

I'm actually sure that is a FTL combat speed feat.

Like RedLanternSuperman said, if Goku was not going FTL he wouldn't of gotten away in time and would of been hit.

#18 Posted by AverageKoala (238 posts) - - Show Bio

Where does instant transmission fit into all of this?

#19 Posted by Laurcus (1299 posts) - - Show Bio

@Flamingo117 said:

@buttersdaman000 said:

@Flamingo117: Thank you for being one of the more.....reasonable DBZ fans i've seen in awhile. The others seem to think attack names, panel-by-panel translations, and timed intervals actually prove some type of point lol I don't agree with everything youre saying but its better than what we usually get here......one question....this is all travel speed, correct? Because I don't think there are any solid indications of comparable reaction speed in DB.

Hahaha! Yes, that's how I feel also. A lot of these people who post scans don't seem to understand what concrete proof is. And yes, what I'm claiming is travel time. I'm guessing reaction time could be faster due to adrenaline. I failed to consider that SSJ2 is actually a 100x increase in strength from SSJ1 from @Laurcus's Super Exciting Guide Story Volume. That still proves my point further, but it doesn't change the fact that SSJ1 Goku is not FTL. Which part of my proofs do you not agree with though?

I think you misunderstood me. SS2 is a x2 increase over SS1. It is a x100 increase over base form.

Also, I consider the Goku vs Jeice and Burter thing concrete proof of FTL speed. It simply doesn't work otherwise. Their fists clearly went right through Goku. If he had just been moving faster than the eye can see, we would have noticed something, because their attacks were too slow. If he had simply dodged, and tried to move back into the exact same position, he either would have ran right into their fists, or he would have looked like a blur, as his speed would have been effectively throttled by theirs.

The only possible way for that scene to make any sense is for Goku to be vibrating his molecules at the speed of light, (something the Flash is know for, lol) so that their attacks pass through him. Tell me how that isn't concrete proof?

#20 Posted by 7am_Waking_Up_In_The_Morning (3578 posts) - - Show Bio

@RedLanternSuperman said:

@Flamingo117 said:

^Not sure what that scan proves as there is no quantifiable proof from that scan.Piccolo may have well been exaggerating. That's the kind of discussion I want to avoid.

Sorry!

It really is proof because if Goku was going anything below light speed he wouldn't of escaped the attack and been hit by the light ball.

Note Piccolo says "Super speed, the Instant is exploded" this tells us that Goku did this all in one swift move at an instant, and broke out o it with speed alone.

This.

Once a nuclear reaction begins to detonate and the initial flash of light occurs, you have to be traveling faster than that light in order to get to the location were goku was during the energy release of the explosion. So while Goku was trapped in the ball, he had to travel the same speed of the initial flash of the explosion. However, Goku was already posted at the location where Krillin, Piccolo, and Gohan were at, and they were at a location far and safe away from the explosion, yet they saw Goku land in the ocean where the ball eventually exploded.

And it was a big explosion!

#21 Posted by 7am_Waking_Up_In_The_Morning (3578 posts) - - Show Bio

Anyway, Goku HAD to be faster than the initial flash of light during the explosion of the Light Trap Ball. So fast that he landed and watched the explosion before the light flashed.

#22 Edited by Laurcus (1299 posts) - - Show Bio

@Flamingo117: Once again, with your edit, you misunderstood the information I gave you.

SS1 is a x50 increase, SS2 is a x100 increase, and SS3 is a x400 increase, over base form. That means, SS2 Goku had a power level of at least 300 million, and SS3 Goku had a power level of at least 1.2 billion. It's a x4 increase over SS2.

But once again, that ignores other power increases via Zenkai and training. And canonically, Supreme Kai has a power level of 120 billion, and he was shown to be much weaker than base form Goku in the Buu saga.

#23 Posted by SoA (4678 posts) - - Show Bio

when it comes to DB characters i ignore other viners who say ___ is faster, stronger, w/e than a DB character, i feel they never saw the series or wont believe any (and i do mean ANY) DB character can wipe the floor with any (again i do mean ANY) american comic character. be it superman , thor , etc . with previous arguments they don't hold the hand of non-believers and get into little non relevant facts as how fast goku (using as example) is going when charging an opponent? , how heavy is the rock goku is lifting?, etc , why state the unimportant in american comics because unless drawn clearly no one will no what was happening. in conclusion the DB universe is unbeatable and no can come close to touching it and anything short of agreement im probably gonna ignore. have a nice day :)

Online
#24 Posted by Laurcus (1299 posts) - - Show Bio

@SoA said:

when it comes to DB characters i ignore other viners who say ___ is faster, stronger, w/e than a DB character, i feel they never saw the series or wont believe any (and i do mean ANY) DB character can wipe the floor with any (again i do mean ANY) american comic character. be it superman , thor , etc . with previous arguments they don't hold the hand of non-believers and get into little non relevant facts as how fast goku (using as example) is going when charging an opponent? , how heavy is the rock goku is lifting?, etc , why state the unimportant in american comics because unless drawn clearly no one will no what was happening. in conclusion the DB universe is unbeatable and no can come close to touching it and anything short of agreement im probably gonna ignore. have a nice day :)

I like you. Can we be friends lol?

#25 Posted by 7am_Waking_Up_In_The_Morning (3578 posts) - - Show Bio

@Laurcus said:

@Flamingo117: Once again, with your edit, you misunderstood the information I gave you.

SS1 is a x50 increase, SS2 is a x100 increase, and SS3 is a x400 increase, over base form. That means, SS Goku had a power level of at least 300 million, and SS3 Goku had a power level of at least 1.2 billion. It's a x4 increase over SS2.

But once again, that ignores other power increases via Zenkai and training. And canonically, Supreme Kai has a power level of 120 billion, and he was shown to be much weaker than base form Goku in the Buu saga.

Basically this.

  • Goku's base form from the Cell Saga is more powerful than SS1 Goku during the Freeza Fight.
  • Goku's base form from the Kid Buu Saga was many many many times more powerful than SS1 Goku from the end of the Cell Games.
  • Non-SS Goku from the Kid Buu Saga is more powerful than SS2 Gohan from the Cell Games.
#26 Posted by SoA (4678 posts) - - Show Bio

@Laurcus: yes. yes we can.

Online
#27 Posted by CerberusPrime3k (950 posts) - - Show Bio

@SoA said:

when it comes to DB characters i ignore other viners who say ___ is faster, stronger, w/e than a DB character, i feel they never saw the series or wont believe any (and i do mean ANY) DB character can wipe the floor with any (again i do mean ANY) american comic character. be it superman , thor , etc . with previous arguments they don't hold the hand of non-believers and get into little non relevant facts as how fast goku (using as example) is going when charging an opponent? , how heavy is the rock goku is lifting?, etc , why state the unimportant in american comics because unless drawn clearly no one will no what was happening. in conclusion the DB universe is unbeatable and no can come close to touching it and anything short of agreement im probably gonna ignore. have a nice day :)

That's a pretty big claim to make, care to tell me how ANY DB character can wipe the floor with ANY American Comic Character?

Not trying to start anything but I'd love to know.

#28 Posted by SoA (4678 posts) - - Show Bio

@CerberusPrime3k: if i too were not to start anything and this would just be my opinion that would not get into a full blown debate and if you ignore the similar origins of the central character to a certain american icon, you can see that the characters in the DB universe are unique and do not have a similar counterparts or blatant rip-offs . therefore they win on being unique and being awesome alone.

Online
#29 Posted by Baldy (5021 posts) - - Show Bio

More DBZ 'math' based completely on speculation. Not a battle.

#30 Posted by Freefa11 (2335 posts) - - Show Bio

@Flamingo117 said:

When Goku first started out to cross snake-way, his power level was 334 without his weighted clothes. He crossed 1,000,000 km in 177 days. That means he was traveling at speed 235.404 km/hr.

When he finished training with King Kai, his power level was 9,000. He crossed 1,000,000 km in 2 days. He traveled at speed 20,833.33 km/hr.

Now = 334 : 235.404 km/hr to

9,000 : 20,833.33 km/hr

IMO, Farmer with a Shotgun is a data point worth considering, since he is most likely an average human being. I would also suspect, though I suppose I can't prove it, that a power level of zero would equate to a speed of zero. If you look at the numbers you came up with and scale Goku's speed back, it looks like his speed drops below zero before his power level, which is kind of problematic.

Obviously, the actual power output from power levels must be heavily exponential at low numbers (PL 5 = normal human. PL 200 = moon buster... WTH?), but there speed is obviously not nearly as outrageous.

Also, just to play a little devil's advocate, Snake Way is a very twisted, winding path. Goku took a mostly straight line back to earth after his training with KK, which should reduce the actual distance traveled noticeably.

#31 Posted by buttersdaman000 (9334 posts) - - Show Bio
@Flamingo117:  
Basically just the correlation between power level and speed. I already did some math for strength and iirc even Super Vegito fails to out muscle Superman. Based on feats, even though they seemed a lot stronger, strength didnt really increase greatly with a higher power level so I just dont think speed necessarily does either.  
Also, here, we don't base reaction speed on travel time at all. If we did, Superman would be able to react thousands of times faster than light.... 
#32 Edited by Mortein (2686 posts) - - Show Bio

@Flamingo117 said:

When he finished training with King Kai, his power level was 9,000. He crossed 1,000,000 km in 2 days. He traveled at speed 20,833.33 km/hr.

Actually his PL was 5000 when he arrived to the Earth, he powered up only after he started a fight against nappa to a PL 8000+.

Also I think he crossed a snake way in approximately 27-28 hours.

Remember, king kai's prediction was that it will take him 2 days, however saiyans came to earth after 24 hours, and 3-5 hours after them Goku arrives also.

I can't tell you precisely how much it took him to cross a snake way, but it was certainly less than 48h, and more than 26h.

Overall, i think your calculations are ok, but their combat speed was always much better than their travel speed.

here is what I think about their combat speed, feel free to comment:

http://www.comicvine.com/dragon-balls/18-46445/combat-speed-of-dragon-ball-characters/92-649740/#1@Freefa11 said:

@Flamingo117 said:

IMO, Farmer with a Shotgun is a data point worth considering,

Here is the problem.

A scouter is detecting someones level of power, and words power, energy, ki and sometemies even strength are used as synonyms in DBZ world.

So if someone has a PL 100, that shows us the abount of energy he posseses

So if a normal human has a PL 5, and PL of few hudreds is enough to destroy a moon, than how come a normal humans aren't destroying cities and mountains?

IMO that's because they don't know how to use their ki to boost their speed, strength or destructive power, they don't even know a ki exists.

#33 Posted by Pokergeist (22351 posts) - - Show Bio

252,088 miles from earth to the moon.

186,282 miles a second Speed of Light

Piccolo blows up moon in 1 second.

Radits dodges the shot after it is fired.

Thus non SS can dodge FTL.....

/End Thread.

#34 Posted by Laurcus (1299 posts) - - Show Bio

@buttersdaman000 said:

@Flamingo117: Basically just the correlation between power level and speed. I already did some math for strength and iirc even Super Vegito fails to out muscle Superman. Based on feats, even though they seemed a lot stronger, strength didnt really increase greatly with a higher power level so I just dont think speed necessarily does either. Also, here, we don't base reaction speed on travel time at all. If we did, Superman would be able to react thousands of times faster than light....

You can't have calculated Vegito's strength because his power level is unknown, and there's no significant feat that gives us similar data.

And if you did calculate Vegito's strength based on a fan made power level, I'm willing to bet you didn't do it properly. No offense to you, but I've found most people on message boards don't know algebra. Power level has been shown to give increasing returns, (note this isn't the same thing as exponential scaling, and I don't think there's any proof that strength scales with power level in an exponential way) in regards to strength.

As I said, the proper way to calculate strength based on power level is with algebra. Specifically, you would need to find two data points For the sake of argument let's say a normal Human has a power level of 5 and is our first data point, and Master Roshi's kamehameha with a PL of 180 is our second data point. For the purposes of this equation, assume that mass destroyed is equal to mass lifted. From there, set an average amount that you believe a normal person could lift. After that, get the mass of the moon from wikipedia. From there, you make a graph, where 5 is equal to the weight an average person can lift, and 180 is equal to the moon. Then you calculate the rate of change between those two points, and graph to show the increasing returns.

With that system, you could theoretically calculate the strength of any known power level, as well as the power level of any known amount of strength, just by continuing the graph up to that point. There are only two problems with this. One is that graphing isn't super precise unless you have a program to do it for you. Human error is quite common in graphing, even more so if you're trying to graph ridiculously small or ridiculously large numbers if you didn't make the graph the exactly perfect size in the first place. The second problem is that we could only get at best an approximation of how much 5 is worth, because every person is different and we don't know how much the farmer could have actually lifted.

#35 Posted by SlimJ87D (9262 posts) - - Show Bio

@CadenceV2: Yep, I reference this all the time. We have a thread like this already and it got moved to Goku's forum. If the cooler series and Brolly series are canon, those guys got shot to the sun in a few seconds.

#36 Posted by Pokergeist (22351 posts) - - Show Bio

@SlimJ87D: DBZ (and Manga in general) Get no Respect.

#37 Posted by k4tzm4n (36126 posts) - - Show Bio

Not a battle.  Moving to general discussion.

Staff Online
#38 Posted by AngryHulks (2994 posts) - - Show Bio

Still, I need solid proof that DBZ character have reflexes that operates at light-speed.

Otherwise, Flash will still be crowned in term of speed in any medium.

And for controversial Superman vs Goku debate, I won't start it here, but I need proof (by feat) that Goku have strength up to at least a sextillion tons level.

#39 Posted by Jorgevy (5114 posts) - - Show Bio

ahha funny, because Im watching Namek Saga right now. I think those "woosh" disappearing moments are FTL movements. at least they look like it. I did see that part where Goku appears right behind Jeice and escapes the light ball. Pretty fast indeed

#40 Edited by Funrush (1369 posts) - - Show Bio

And you have to think about all of the training Goku went through to increase his base level after the Freeza arc, and at the speed training goes for these guys, he probably is FTL as SSJ2, maybe 1.

@Jorgevy said:

ahha funny, because Im watching Namek Saga right now. I think those "woosh" disappearing moments are FTL movements. at least they look like it. I did see that part where Goku appears right behind Jeice and escapes the light ball. Pretty fast indeed

In the 21st WT arc, when Krillin and Jackie Chun are fighting, they actually move too fast for the audience to even tell what's going on, and they are asked to reenact. Considering they were likely in the high 00's, or low 100's, Namek Saga, with power levels in the 120,000's before the fight with Freeza (when the levels got way too out of hand, and I started to ignore them) is extremely fast.

In fact, fights in DBZ probably happened in mere seconds, maybe the 5 minutes till Namek explodes plotpoint everyone complained about is actually accurate.

#41 Posted by TheCrowbar (4286 posts) - - Show Bio

IT'S OVER 9000

#42 Posted by drgnx (3547 posts) - - Show Bio

@CadenceV2 said:

252,088 miles from earth to the moon.

186,282 miles a second Speed of Light

Piccolo blows up moon in 1 second.

Radits dodges the shot after it is fired.

Thus non SS can dodge FTL.....

/End Thread.

Nice work!!!