#1 Posted by BiteMe-Fanboy (7499 posts) - - Show Bio

Please correct me if I am wrong, or if I am misunderstanding this whole thing.. (I've only seen the movie once so far).. But...

Okay. JGL finds the Batcave and all the Batman gear. So this pretty much means Bruce wanted him to find this and possibly become the new Batman. Okay. Well. I hope Bruce left some references for some good ninja masters laying around somewhere! Throwing on a bat costume and running through Gotham fighting numerous baddies is way beyond the skill of some cop. It just doesn't make any sense. Bruce spent years and years training hardcore with the League of Shadows (which isn't just ANY martial arts school you'd run into), and still got his ass kicked by some of the threats he ran into while being Batman.

This is one reason why I think Nolan ruined DKR in the last moments of the movie.

#2 Posted by Matchstick (565 posts) - - Show Bio

I think the implication of the last moments of the movie were that the JGL character was started on the journey of becoming Batman when he found the cave. I don't think the intention was that his character would slap on the cowl and get out on the streets with no preparation.

#3 Posted by BiteMe-Fanboy (7499 posts) - - Show Bio

@Matchstick said:

I think the implication of the last moments of the movie were that the JGL character was started on the journey of becoming Batman when he found the cave. I don't think the intention was that his character would slap on the cowl and get out on the streets with no preparation.

And go train where? Some low rate martial arts school in Gotham?

#4 Posted by AtPhantom (14521 posts) - - Show Bio

He's a detective and all. Maybe figuring out Bruce is alive and tracking him down for training is a part of the test?

#6 Posted by Glitch_Spawn (17132 posts) - - Show Bio

@AtPhantom said:

He's a detective and all. Maybe figuring out Bruce is alive and tracking him down for training is a part of the test?

Ya I agree as figuring out the true identity of Batman has proven impossible for pretty much everyone else.

#7 Edited by BiteMe-Fanboy (7499 posts) - - Show Bio
#8 Posted by BiteMe-Fanboy (7499 posts) - - Show Bio

@AtPhantom said:

He's a detective and all. Maybe figuring out Bruce is alive and tracking him down for training is a part of the test?

That's stretching it a bit, ain't it?

#9 Posted by AtPhantom (14521 posts) - - Show Bio

@BiteMe-Fanboy said:

@AtPhantom said:

He's a detective and all. Maybe figuring out Bruce is alive and tracking him down for training is a part of the test?

That's stretching it a bit, ain't it?

Probably. I'm just throwing it out there.

#10 Posted by Matchstick (565 posts) - - Show Bio

@BiteMe-Fanboy said:

@Matchstick said:

I think the implication of the last moments of the movie were that the JGL character was started on the journey of becoming Batman when he found the cave. I don't think the intention was that his character would slap on the cowl and get out on the streets with no preparation.

And go train where? Some low rate martial arts school in Gotham?

Does it really matter? The point was just to open his chapter as Batman, not spell out exactly how he would go about it. It was Bruce's story, not Blake's.

#11 Edited by BiteMe-Fanboy (7499 posts) - - Show Bio

@Matchstick said:

@BiteMe-Fanboy said:

@Matchstick said:

I think the implication of the last moments of the movie were that the JGL character was started on the journey of becoming Batman when he found the cave. I don't think the intention was that his character would slap on the cowl and get out on the streets with no preparation.

And go train where? Some low rate martial arts school in Gotham?

Does it really matter? The point was just to open his chapter as Batman, not spell out exactly how he would go about it. It was Bruce's story, not Blake's.

Yes it matters. If you're going to just create some random character and tease that he will become the next Batman in that universe, make it make some sense. Bruce faking his death, dipping out on Gotham, and leaving Blake all his stuff and intending him to pick up his mantle is a horrible idea to throw into the ending of an 'epic' trilogy. And John Blake didn't even appear until the last film? Come onnn.. It's like Bruce is like 'I'm tired of being Batman. But I feel bad for just dipping out on Gotham.. So I'll just throw it onto this cop and let him figure it out'

All it is is Nolan trying to justify his Bruce not wanting to be Batman anymore and dipping out without him looking bad.

#12 Posted by Quintus_Knightfall (84372 posts) - - Show Bio

Its not like Nolan's Batman, for all the supposed badass ninja training he received from the League, was ever depicted as a martial artist outside the realm of any rudimentary training. The most in-depth scene of Bruce actually using established/recognizable technique was when he first arrived at the League of Shadows and was using Crane, Tiger, etc. Beyond that I suppose there was the sword training montage but he never once utilized that knowledge as Batman (in regards to the swordsmanship). My point being Bruce as Batman utilized his gadgets and resources over martial arts skill. I may be wrong but I dont recall seeing him display any hand to hand combat feats that couldnt be learned in a standard martial arts gym. Hell the UFC mixed martial artists display more technique and hand to hand prowess then Batman did. Blake could join Greg Jackson's camp and train alongside Jon Jones and gain more skills then Bruce/Batman was shown actually using. Did he ever even throw a kick in the suit? They should have shown him performing some IP Man type martial arts if they really wanted to establish this ninja martial arts training as something far beyond the means of a normal martial artist. Hell Sherlock Holmes showcased more skill then Batman. The combat anticipation sequences were Beast Mode.

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#13 Posted by BiteMe-Fanboy (7499 posts) - - Show Bio

@Gambler said:

Its not like Nolan's Batman, for all the supposed badass ninja training he received from the League, was ever depicted as a martial artist outside the realm of any rudimentary training. The most in-depth scene of Bruce actually using established/recognizable technique was when he first arrived at the League of Shadows and was using Crane, Tiger, etc. Beyond that I suppose there was the sword training montage but he never once utilized that knowledge as Batman (in regards to the swordsmanship). My point being Bruce as Batman utilized his gadgets and resources over martial arts skill. I may be wrong but I dont recall seeing him display any hand to hand combat feats that couldnt be learned in a standard martial arts gym. Hell the UFC mixed martial artists display more technique and hand to hand prowess then Batman did. Blake could join Greg Jackson's camp and train alongside Jon Jones and gain more skills then Bruce/Batman was shown actually using. Did he ever even throw a kick in the suit? They should have shown him performing some IP Man type martial arts if they really wanted to establish this ninja martial arts training as something far beyond the means of a normal martial artist. Hell Sherlock Holmes showcased more skill then Batman. The combat anticipation sequences were Beast Mode.

Great post.... I just realized that Batman never did really ever show off his martial arts skills.. I wonder why... huh...

IDK though, I still think the ending was stupid though.

#14 Posted by FalconPuuunch (942 posts) - - Show Bio

@BiteMe-Fanboy: It also ruined it for me as well. It was nice that they had "Robin" make a cameo, but without the basics it just isn't the same and there is no real point. I get that Batman wasn't great at H2H, but that doesn't mean his training didn't come in handy. I sure as hell can't do 99% of the stuff that was depicted by Nolan's Batman and i'm sure basic rookie cops can't either.

#15 Posted by War Killer (19867 posts) - - Show Bio

I highly doubt Bruce would just give the kid a map to the Batcave, give him the suit and all of the gear, and then leave him with a note saying "Well, good luck!" I wouldn't be surprised if, while poking around the cave, Blake ends up finding some kind of Batman training guide on the Bat-Computer or something; not to mention that it would have been very out-of-character for Bruce to simply leave the fate of Gotham in someones hand without making sure they had everything they needed to do the job, that includes the training. He planned his "death" out months in advance, so I'm sure he thought it through and left some type of training manual for Blake to gain the skills he would need through.

#16 Posted by Th3DarkKn1ght24 (88 posts) - - Show Bio

@AtPhantom said:

He's a detective and all. Maybe figuring out Bruce is alive and tracking him down for training is a part of the test?

For training as Robin I freaking hope.... Nobody other than those who have already dawned the cowl (JPV and Dick) should ever wear it and no one should call it their own other than Bruce! (Beyond doesn't count, so yes as long as he is Bruce's "assistant" that would be cool)

#17 Posted by joshmightbe (24469 posts) - - Show Bio

@Gambler: You could learn that elbow-fu crap he does in the movies by watching a mid 90s metal video

#18 Posted by Quintus_Knightfall (84372 posts) - - Show Bio

@BiteMe-Fanboy: I think Nolan (and this is just speculation on my part) purposely toned down the martial arts aspect so it felt grounded, real. Sadly he overcompensated in my opinion. There's still some appreciation to be had in the street level proficiency in which Batman utilized basic striking, grappling, and defense, but Nolan could have delved even deeper while still maintaining believability.

I actually really liked the ending but I'm somewhat bias.

@joshmightbe said:

You could learn that elbow-fu crap he does in the movies by watching a mid 90s metal video

HA! Thats perfect. Elbow-Fu is exactly what it looked like. Had it been part of a larger display it would have been really cool. By itself however it looked like some Billy Blanks Tae Bo sh!t.

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#19 Posted by ComicMan24 (147032 posts) - - Show Bio

@Gambler said:

Its not like Nolan's Batman, for all the supposed badass ninja training he received from the League, was ever depicted as a martial artist outside the realm of any rudimentary training. The most in-depth scene of Bruce actually using established/recognizable technique was when he first arrived at the League of Shadows and was using Crane, Tiger, etc. Beyond that I suppose there was the sword training montage but he never once utilized that knowledge as Batman (in regards to the swordsmanship). My point being Bruce as Batman utilized his gadgets and resources over martial arts skill. I may be wrong but I dont recall seeing him display any hand to hand combat feats that couldnt be learned in a standard martial arts gym. Hell the UFC mixed martial artists display more technique and hand to hand prowess then Batman did. Blake could join Greg Jackson's camp and train alongside Jon Jones and gain more skills then Bruce/Batman was shown actually using. Did he ever even throw a kick in the suit? They should have shown him performing some IP Man type martial arts if they really wanted to establish this ninja martial arts training as something far beyond the means of a normal martial artist. Hell Sherlock Holmes showcased more skill then Batman. The combat anticipation sequences were Beast Mode.

True, I was never really that much impressed by his martial arts skills in the movie. Now, I haven't watched the entire first so I haven't seen him training with the League of Shadows but in the other two movies, he never made me think that he was a master martial artist. Well tbh he didn't really impress me as a detective either but that's another story. And so true about Sherlock Holmes. They pretty much turned him into Midnighter or something lol

#20 Edited by FadeToBlackBolt (23334 posts) - - Show Bio

Ugh, it's thematic. It's just passing the torch. JGL was never going to become Batman. He was going to become someone like Batman should the need arise. Batman died to save Gotham, that was the whole point. Batman was not coming back. Bruce (who is the only Batman) and his journey came to an end. 

#21 Posted by 80sBaby (1338 posts) - - Show Bio

This is just one of the many problems with TDKR.

#22 Posted by FadeToBlackBolt (23334 posts) - - Show Bio
@80sBaby said:
This is just one of the many problems with TDKR.
Yeah, how dare Nolan make a film that focused more on theme instead of just having a bunch of explosions. 
#23 Edited by 80sBaby (1338 posts) - - Show Bio

@FadeToBlackBolt: Please point to where I complained about the THEMES. I'll wait...

#24 Posted by Crash_Recovery (850 posts) - - Show Bio

@Matchstick: This.

I don't think there was any implication that Bruce Wayne thought Blake was ready for the prime time. But he saw the potential and character in him to be a successor.

#25 Posted by FadeToBlackBolt (23334 posts) - - Show Bio
@80sBaby: You have to make sure it actually replied, otherwise I don't know if you answer back.  
 
Most of the problems people have with the film, such as this, are because they completely misunderstand the thematic nature of it. 
#26 Posted by 80sBaby (1338 posts) - - Show Bio

@FadeToBlackBolt: i'm on Internet Explorer at work so cn't use "Reply" or "Quote" functions. Sorry. But, to your point, I'm not "most people" nor do I think "most people" don't understand the thematic nature of the Nolan films. How could they when the themes are so heavy handed and he practically beats you over the head with them? My issues with the film are the many plot holes, the poor pacing and some of the characterization. It seems to me that Nolan knew how he wanted the franchise to end and wrote the script backwards to reach that destination.

#27 Posted by FadeToBlackBolt (23334 posts) - - Show Bio
@80sBaby: Ahk, no worries. I'll try to respond if I see you have then.  
 
It was terribly heavy-handed yes, but that's because the film focused on the thematic elements. Like Dark Knight. They're very experimental films for the superhero genre. Look at the Avengers, for instance. It has a more satisfying plot, is funnier and has more "character moments", but it's shallow as an editorial about world hunger in playboy.  
 
The things that happened in Rises (in particular), were simply the journey of Bruce Wayne, and the perceived plot holes were really just a result of the thematic approach. For example, many complain about the police charging the prisoners and not all being gunned down. That's not the point of the show. Of course Bruce wouldn't be able to heal in 5 months from that injury, but again, not the point. This bizarre fascination comic fans have with "realism" while people in tights beat up people who were radioactively given superpowers is quite astounding. Look at Rises not as a film that tells a story about what happens when Bane shows up, but rather a film that tells a story about the strength of human will in the face of overwhelming adversity. Again, heavy-handed, but it makes it much more enjoyable when viewed as a character and thematic piece than just as another action movie. 
#28 Posted by InnerVenom123 (29499 posts) - - Show Bio

There are more martial artists than Ras/etc in the comics, so you could probably assume that Blake would get extensive training from a Nolanverse counterpart of someone else. Lady Shiva? Just a guess. I have no real idea, I'm not that in depth in DC to know.

Anyway he could handle himself pretty damn well. Maybe it's just him being an orphan with anger issues, but I'd guess he got into fights often enough growing up that he's good at them.

Now picture that with the Bat-equipment.

Seems like he'll live.

#29 Posted by 80sBaby (1338 posts) - - Show Bio

@FadeToBlackBolt: I agree that TDKR was very thematic and had more depth than the Avengers but that doesn't excuse the plot holes. IMO, Nolan was so focused on getting his point across that the script/movie suffered for it, which is a sign of poor writing/directing. The scene you mentioned is one example of that out of many. It's entirely possible to get the thematic element he wanted without having so many plot holes nor did he need to be so obvious. "Deeper" doesn't automatically mean "better."

#30 Posted by FadeToBlackBolt (23334 posts) - - Show Bio
@80sBaby: That's a fair statement, and to be honest, I usually go to the wall arguing with people about this sort of thing, but I'm getting the impression that you're actually a smart guy, so I'm not going to go into my messianic, patronising rants (and needlessly insult your intelligence, usually when I do that sort of thing, there is no intelligence to be insulted), and just acccept that we see the film the same, just have different views on it. So have a good one.  ^_^
#31 Posted by 80sBaby (1338 posts) - - Show Bio

@FadeToBlackBolt: WOW. Thanks for the compliment! And I totally know what you mean. Some people do like to bash this (and other movies/books, etc.) out of ignorance rather than any "legitimate" issues. Despite the flaws, though, I did think TDKR was a good movie just a bit disappointing for me.

#32 Posted by Timandm (3374 posts) - - Show Bio

@BiteMe-Fanboy: Did you catch that the cops 'REAL' first name was ROBIN... I think he's supposed to become Robin or Night Wing....

You are right that putting on a costume does not a super hero make... However:

1: He's smart. He actually figured out who the Batman is...

2: He's a detective. That's one of the things Batman is.. A detective.

3: He's not exactly unskilled or untrained. He is a police officer and a detective.

4: He's street smart.

5: He has that inner fire that came from having lost his loved ones to crime...

There's time for training and there's always those wonderful bat toys...