Power Defined

For a very long time the Comicvine community has debated the characteristics of comic book icons and the battles between them. Often however these characters are written on such a wildly varying scale that coming to a consensus is difficult if not impossible. We see both Thanos and the Silver Surfer defeated by Odin, then we see Odin defeated by Galactus, then Galactus is defeated Annihilus.... and Thanos. The same Annihilus that Odin has 1 shotted. And dont get me started on perhaps some of the most famous battles of the silver age, the Thing Vs The Hulk. Now in full disclosure, the Thing has always been my favorite hero but lets be honest. The Thing at his best can press a couple tanks above his head. Pretty impressive but the Hulk has been shown holding a mountain on his back. This is where the arguments about who beats who break down. Logically, the Thing should not be able to even affect the Hulk, not to mention he shouldn't be able to hurt him. It's enough to make your head explode.

So having said all that, perhaps it is up to the great minds of Comicvine to straighten out this convoluted mess. Before we talk about battles between characters, perhaps we should debate which category the characters fit into. Once this is done, as I will explain, there is no reason to make a battle between Hulk and Doomsday because they are in 2 different classes and the outcome of the battle is without question a curbstomp.

I will be the first to propose some ideas which just might make that happen. Hopefully the vine alum will add to these ideas so we can put some of these arguments to rest. If Marvel and DC wont make some sense out if this mess, then maybe we can.

First, I would suggest characters are assigned certain classifications but I dont necessarily think the wheel needs to be reinvented. Especially for characters at or below the 100 ton level. Using current classifications already out there is fine. I think characters such as Spiderman and the Thing are fairly well defined. You could argue wether the Thing is a 100 tonner or somewhat below that, but there is little debate he is in that ballpark. The problems arise when you are talking the uber powerful guys like Thor, (and it seems half the DC Universe).

When I think power, I think strength. And that basically means how much mass can a character move. And mass of course is a critical component in the creation of energy, (Thanks to E=MC2). So I think we can equate the power of an individual to the mass they can effectively deal with. As I already stated, the Thing can lift perhaps 2 tanks or 100 tons. Although the Hulks strength is variable, I would say an enraged Hulk could lift a mountain, (Mount Everest weighs in at roughly 175 billion tons, which is obviously a little more than 2 tanks) and Superman can pull approximately 1/3 the earths weight which is approximately 2 sextillion tons, (also roughly the weight of the small planet Mars).

Now when you look at it in these terms, the Thing is much stronger than say Spiderman but only has a tiny fraction of the Hulks strength so the argument as to who should win in a battle between them is moot. The Thing is simply way out of his weight class. And to carry this one step farther, although an enraged Hulk is a powerhouse, (classified, I would suggest, in the 100 billion ton category), he is just totally overmatched with someone who has the strength of a character like Superman, (classified in the small planet buster category). As such, the Hulk has absolutely no chance in a battle with characters such as Superman, Captain Marvel, Black Adam, Doomsday etc.

Now in my opinion the next level would be standard planet busters. I believe the skyfathers fit well in this level. Skyfathers routinely exhibit power beyond Supermans abilities so a character with the ability to move the earth, (which would make them 3 times stronger than Superman) would likely be able to pull off planet busting feats. Truly gods among mortals, but not actually omnipotent.

Now when you consider a character like Galactus, how does he fit in. Well, I think he actually would be a good benchmark for a solar system buster. Many would consider him as a galaxy buster and yet he has been knocked around by Thanos who has been beaten pillar to post by Odin. And Galactus has battled Odin and generally dominated him. This just isnt consistent. In fact, Galactus is full of contradictions. He requires the energy of planets to feed on and yet he is suppose to be a galaxy buster? This makes no sense. To have that kind of power you would have to have the energy generated by at least, dare I say it, a million exploding suns, and if you had that much energy potential, the energy you could absorb from a single planet is very nearly nothing. Eating a planet would do nothing to replenish an entity of that power. Think about it this way, if you threw the earth into the sun, the sun would probably not even notice. Now times that much power times 1 million. You get the idea.

So, if eating a planet does help replenish Galactus, we have to assume his power level is much less than what it would actually take to bust a galaxy. But we know he is powerful and has been described as surviving a blast from the Magus that could destroy a solar system. Now our sun does not have this much power. A star roughly 8-10 times the mass of the sun is required in order to go super nova which would be powerful enough to destroy a solar system. Thus, I think it is entirely plausible that Galactus has power that equals a star 10 times the mass of our sun.

To put this in prospective, our sun is approximately 330,000 times more massive than the earth. A star 10 times this massive would be 3.3 million times more massive than the earth. Now if Superman is strong enough to move approximately 1/3 the earths weight, this means that Galactus would be almost 10 million times more powerful than Superman! This is entirely consistent with the idea that he would be more than even all of DC earth could handle but also that it would at least be worth it to him to even take the time to eat DC Earth in the first place. It would only be a small snack, all things considered, but at least it makes a bit of sense.

One argument made about Galactus as to his Galaxy Busting potential is that he is suppose to be equal to Death and Eternity in power.This argument is supported by the SS issue where Eternity and Galactus meet and speak as peers. Well in fact in that issue Eternity makes the statement that he appreciates Galactus appearing as a star. That would actually support my position above. Also, just because the 3 entities are peers, it doesn't mean they are equal in power. Superman, Batman and Wonder Woman are peers and respect each other as equals, but no one would argue that they are equal in power. And of course, if Galactus was indeed all Powerful, or at least as powerful as Eternity and Death, then why would he need to live and travel in a ship no to mention use technology. Neither Eternity nor Death need technology to accomplish their tasks. The One Above All certainly doesn't need technology. So all in all, I think making Galactus a benchmark character as a solar system buster makes sense.

As there are very few characters above Galactus's level I would leave it up to the Vine to create those levels leading up to the One Above All and/or the Source. Regardless, I think the next chapter in Vine history should be the debate of how to classify each character. Once that is done, we can have a truly meaningful debate about who is more powerful, Thor or Superman.

These are all very good points. Especially the Galactus-energy-of-1-planet bit.

I will split hairs with one point - that striking power is more relevant when fighting than lifting power (and Superman pulling a planet isn't really related to the planet's pass - nor should it be possible in the vacuum of space, do to his much smaller mass & inertia).

One "fairly obvious" issue I'd like to add onto power/striking (one that I feel should be as obvious as the "if he can destroy a solar system, the energy in 1 planet shouldn't be much to him" argument): We constantly see heavy-hitters throw punches that have a devastating effect. Whether shown by creating massive damage (craters, etc) or just by hurting another character who can shrug off bombs & the like (ie: the punches should be stronger than said bombs). (And I am not questioning how they have the internal-energy to do this, I'm just assuming this & applying logical results). Then why-oh-why do characters continue to grab a car or lamp-post or the like & swing it at an opponent? (Besides the obvious/actual answer that it looks really cool). There's no speed they could swing that item at that would (coupled w/the relatively low-mass) create enough energy to be stronger than a super-punch. Not to mention, that the metals and other materials would break/"lose" before the super-durable opponent would (it'd be like breaking a fake-glass bottle on someone - No matter what speed you hit them with it, they would hardly feel it & they wouldn't be injured at all). Other than as a messy-distraction, they'd be much better served to use their own punches to deal damage.

Good point. Hercules hitting the Hulk with a tree is a complete waste of time. If Hulk can survive being hit by Thor's hammer, a tree or a lamp post shouldn't do anything to him.

Object-swinging (with "top tier" people) is something that both is SO illogical I think it could be removed (ie: we'll accept powers & stuff, but the world should respond accordingly - or at least with some explanation (like large objects not crumbling b/c of tactile-kinesis, etc)) - and also could be removed & comics would still be able to function. Sure it looks cool sometimes, but there are plenty of other cool moves in a fight-scene. Street-levelers could still do it (because they're strong enough to pick up some big objects & not so durable that they can't be hurt by those objects when in motion), but "100+ ton-ers" shouldn't anymore.

I agree. Considering my criteria above, in what category would you place the following characters (Typical, non amped versions): 1.) Thor, 2.) Thanos, 3.) Darkseid, 4.) The Watcher (Uatu), 5.) Green Lantern (Hal Jordan), 6.) Hercules (Marvel), 7.) Silver Surfer, 8.) Ganthet, 9.) Solomon Grundy, 10.) Dr. Manhattan.