Posted by G-Man (30684 posts) - - Show Bio

What do you do once a dangerous supervillain is captured? The Marvel and DC Universes are constantly building or repairing their super-prisons in order to keep these deadly characters locked up. Somehow they always manage to escape, only to be captured once again after killing or causing destruction.

A common theme in both universes is to try to do something different with the captured villains. Villains fall into their old habits due to not having anything else going for them. Being a villain is all they know. They want luxuries out of life, as most people do. Being a bad guy is all they really know.

Because most supervillains have a powers and abilities, rather than continue to lock them up after each return visit, there has been the idea of using the villains to actually do good. As long as they can be given the proper incentive and are able to be controlled, it has been seen that the villains can be formed into a squad to perform dangerous missions. The villains are simply being used with rarely an actual guarantee that their sentence will be reduced for their good behavior. Is trying to use supervillains to do good the safe and right thing to do?

== TEASER ==

In many ways, it makes sense. Why should taxpayers have to keep these super-criminals fed and entertained? If they can be used to do good things, how could that be bad? The idea that these villains are expendable is questionable. Many of them may be criminal scum but does that make it right to put their lives at risk for the goals of some high ranking government officials? How much information are they really given? Do they fully know the dangers they could face before going on these missions? It seems unlikely that they would be given full disclosure on why they are needed to perform the task being assigned to them.

There's also the manner in which they are kept in line. When you have individuals with insane powers, you can't just promise to reduce their sentence and hope they will embrace the notion of doing something good. The villains are usually injected with nanite technology. This technology can track the criminals and either provide pain or a way to shut down their bodies if they get out of line. Some (like those in the Suicide Squad) even have nanite bombs injected into them to keep them in line. This was often done without their consent. Is it a violation of their rights?

Can they trust that whoever is at the controls won't zap them in the middle of a mission so that there would be an unfortunate accident while in the field? We've seen in SUICIDE SQUAD where a villain might be needed to lay blame on if the situation goes sour. All that needs to be done is use one of the teammates as a decoy or patsy.

The other matter is trusting the villains. They may have to go on dangerous missions but that could be better than being locked up in a tiny cell and trying to survive recreational time with all the other deadly villains locked up. They may go through the motions and pretend that they truly do want to reform and earn their freedom. They could just be biding their time in order to escape long term incarceration.

Being part of a team also provides them with training that they could use later if they decide to return to a life of crime. Low level villains can be given the experience needed to make them a stronger and more dangerous villain. It's basically work experience for applying to their next criminal job, even if they are doing good things.

The main thing is safety for the public. Regardless of how much monitoring is done or technology used to keep them in line, there's always the possibility they will be able to escape. It would be hard to imagine that the general public would approve of supervillains being allowed to roam the streets, even if they're supposedly on a tight leash. There's simply too much of a danger should something go wrong. Too many lives are being put at risk under the hope that the entire monitoring process is being kept up to date. With all the technology in the hands of villains, it would only be a matter of time until someone else could gain access and liberate any incarcerated villains working in the field and help set them free.

There is always the chance that doing some good might actually rub off on them. We saw that with the original Thunderbolts. There's bound to be a great feeling of actually helping others and being appreciated. Feeling that they can do something that matters might be what they need to make them really want to redeem themselves.

Using captured villains to do the dangerous dirty work for the government in the hopes of helping others seems like a good idea. There just needs to be consent on the villains part and extreme safety protocols need to be put in place. If they are willing to take the risks and everyone can be sure they won't be able to escape and threaten others, there isn't a lot to lose. Even though they're villains, they still have rights that should be honored. If there's the chance that they actually want to continue to do good, the world will become a better place.

Staff
#1 Posted by TheMess1428 (2176 posts) - - Show Bio

And then there is how Harley Quinn made a full escape from the Suicide Squad. Which is usually impossible...

#2 Edited by ArtisticNeedham (2234 posts) - - Show Bio

I came up with an idea a while back that is similar to these teams of villains:

This was my comic idea for Plantinum Studio's Comic Idea Challenge.

Unfortunately it did not get in, there was some sort of clitch in their system and many people were unable to submit their art even though it was hours and hours before the cut off period. (Or maybe they didn't like it)

My concept is this,

these are dead villains put together on a team, lead by a dead super hero, in order for them to redeem their souls. It would be a study in character, watching a monstrous villain like the Joker become a true hero like Superman. Its my idea for the dead Marvel villains using my own characters.

The idea would be like Colossus or Wonder Man (when they were dead) or Banshee or Thunderbird, leading a team of dead villains like Kraven the Hunter, Baron Zemo (the original), Cyber, Calypso, and other dead villains, in missions that the rest of the world wouldn't ever know about. They are all there mysteriously like the Exiles, and the leader would have boosted mystical powers to keep the team in line like I drew in my comic here. The team would be the bad guy, who died while being bad, the chance to redeem their souls and cross over into the next life or fail and go to the other place. And of coarse some bad guys would try to take control and then get ejected from the team and wiped into nothingness. But this idea, I think eliminates some of the problems brought up in this article. The reason they are there is to redeem their souls once and for all. One last chance. Plus it would be fun to see a psycho like Cyber become a hero like Mimic or Captain America.

I don't know, just wanted to post my idea I had a while ago. Anyways...

I think the main problem with these teams is that there is always the possibility that the bad guys will gain control, and putting them into the public like they do. Letting a bad guy walk around innocent people is just a bad idea. I would like to see Wolverine become the leader of the Thunderbolts. We basically can't die, doesn't really have a family like Luke Cage, and isn't afraid to kill anyone to stop the bad things from happening, even a mutant child like Hope.

Does the public in these comics know about the existance of the teams? I know that Marvel's might because the Thunderbolts were once a public team pretending to the next Avengers and then actually trying to be heroes. But do they know that the Thunderbolts and the Suicide Squad exist? (might have been mentioned in the article and I overlooked it.)

What if they brainwashed the bad guys like in Squadron Supreme? So that a bad guy like Bullseye thought he was a good guy? Would that be better?

#3 Posted by McClintick (25 posts) - - Show Bio

The public does not know the Suicide Squad exists. And there are certain villains that are ok being used for a specific task but only the more stable ones.

#4 Posted by DarthShap (875 posts) - - Show Bio

It sucks that DC stopped reprinting the Ostrander Suicide Squad run (and the Giffen/DeMatteis JLI run at the exact moment Hughes was starting pencils but that's another story).

#5 Posted by pspin (891 posts) - - Show Bio

Suicide Squad would be better if they didn't kill someone every other issue and spent time developing characters. With Harly Quinn, Deadshot and El Diablo it should be really easy

#6 Posted by IronAngelX (179 posts) - - Show Bio

I would say that this is not a good idea even if the criminals are considered "expendable" and are worthy of the death sentence since this seems ruthless and the fact that at any given moment one of them can go rogue as Harley Quinn already proved by escaping. You can't keep the beast on a leash or it's bound to kill you.

#7 Posted by Solarflare32 (393 posts) - - Show Bio

People like juggernaught yeah but not the more distrubed criminals of the marvel and dc universe

#8 Posted by The Devil Tiger (1263 posts) - - Show Bio

Ethically, it sucks : Suicide squad and Thunderbolt were not unlike disciplinary unit in nazi Germany and USSR. For the rest, I agree with IronAngelIX.

#9 Posted by Jorgevy (5114 posts) - - Show Bio

would I like this concept if I lived in the DC or Marvel universe? porbably not

but as a reader, I love it! Keep them coming and provide even more Marvel and DC!

#10 Posted by htb106 (1641 posts) - - Show Bio

I like the idea of the criminals being forced to do good, who would buy a comic where Harley Quinn, deadshot and King Shark are just sitting in their cells?

#11 Edited by p_rixx (23 posts) - - Show Bio

Suicide Squad is one of my favorites from new 52, but i think the idea of villains "doing good" to get out of prison is an absurd thing. First of all about tax payers money and stuff. I don't really know (and since it is fiction we are talking about - it doesn't really matter), but isn't it cheaper to hold villains in prison, rather than masterminding schemes to keep them in line? I understand that with some of them it's a real pain-in-the-you-know-what, but taking king shark as an example - keeping him in a decent cell overly dehydrated and he'll be nice and fluffy, until, of coarse, you let your guard down and reach to pet him. The same can be applied to more or less anybody out there. The only real challenge is not keeping them in, but keeping others out, since it's usually impossible to break out of prison on your own. But that's what heroes and S.H.I.E.L.D.'s are for.

My second point is that it's not that they are usually "do good". What they mostly do is killing people. And even though the government might have sanctioned these killings there's absolutely NOTHING good about it. Of course it is possible to control them, at least at some degree, and send them on other types of missions like rescuing and stuff, but is it really worth it to have a boiling pot of testosterone and insanity on a long leash when just about everything might happen. Mind that huge part of the motivation they get from the government is that they might be released some day. So it's rather logical that the they would use EVERY opportunity they have to break out (i might be unable to put what i want to say in the proper words, but breaking out of prison is sort of their only ambition). And what exactly are they going to do after they "do" enough "good". The answer is obvious.

My last point is that there's no way they are going to be better after what they've done. Ask yourself a question - why do these people a villains? The answer is different in each case (sort of the point of all the origins), but usually they are morally shifted towards the "dark side" by everything they went through. Take bane as an example - he was literally born and raised in prison. And many villains have quite tragic origins which subsequently led to their present behavior. And look at what they have to do as government secret squad. They are always in danger and hatred. They deserved it you might say, but is it going to do any good to the society? I don't think so.

And in the conclusion i would like to add that despite the tragedies that made them what they are, they are quite content with mass murdering and doing the dirty work. So isn't it like shoving a raw t-bone in front of a hungry lion?

#12 Posted by colonyofcells (2038 posts) - - Show Bio

Any group like a government or even our own human body have a different type of morality from that of individuals and groups have to routinely sacrifice members for the good of the group. Suicide Squad is a good title to showcase the interesting villains of DC and even villains can be heroic obviously and even villains are born with the capacity to make sacrifices for groups as we are social animals. Governments in trying to protect countries can do seemingly evil things in times of war, spy wars, dangerous missions, etc.

#13 Posted by JonesDeini (3620 posts) - - Show Bio

I think it's unethical but expedient and effective, and at the end of the day I'm a pragmatist.The Suicide Squad/Thunderbolts do the jobs that fans/people of the their respective universes just don't want to know are being done...especially by their beloved heroes. It's ugly, dangerous work but it's necessary. I say don't waste any resources/assets, especially the expendable/renewable ones.

#14 Posted by radar5 (53 posts) - - Show Bio

@pspin: agreed

Suicide Squad is definitely my favorite new 52 title

#15 Posted by Necrotic_Lycanthrope (2388 posts) - - Show Bio

Dark Avengers is like that. Thunderbolts is like that. All main teams have at least one bad guy who was imprisoned in heavy duty confinement that now does good alongside them. 
 
 
But I think in cases like that they have to choose a villain that is eager to switch sides, or who is bad not of their own choice. If you try to get a baddy to come clean (ex. The Joker) that does it for the lolz, then you're wasting time and energy.

#16 Posted by Or35ti (1101 posts) - - Show Bio

It makes for good and interesting storytelling but realistically it's a pretty morally and ethically sick and wrong idea.

#17 Posted by AMP - Seeker of Lost Knowledge (1221 posts) - - Show Bio

Sam concept for this:

#18 Edited by pspin (891 posts) - - Show Bio

@radar5: Suicide Squad would be one of my favorite if they stopped killing (or severely injuring) team members so often. 6 "main" characters dead or maimed 9 issues is seriously way to many to have any sort of character development and barely enough for story progression

#19 Posted by edtie97 (81 posts) - - Show Bio

It's kind of obvious that the villain will just go bad after the mission is over.

#20 Posted by JonesDeini (3620 posts) - - Show Bio

Man...this article reminds me what Suicide Squad used to be and the shite it is now.

#21 Posted by Judge_Dredd (149 posts) - - Show Bio

It's an entertaining idea, and I think that's what matters.

#22 Posted by Cafeterialoca (1503 posts) - - Show Bio

There's villains to trust, and villains you don't trust.

Songbird? You can trust. Bullseye? HELL NO!

@ArtisticNeedham:

I would like to see Wolverine become the leader of the Thunderbolts.

GOD NO!!! Wolverine is overrated enough as it is! We don't need his stink all over the Thunderbolts!!! We get it! He stabs people! But he's NO THUNDERBOLT!

Thunderbolts are villains who want to do good! You know which X-Men would make a better Thunderbolt than Wolverine? Rogue! Wolverine doesn't get what the Thunderbolts have gone through! Heck, he'd probably undermine Songbird! And lord knows she's seen the good and the bad that happens with the redemption of super villains!

Seriously, if any of you talk about Thunderbolts and don't know this face:

Issue 168

Then you won't get Thunderbolts!

#23 Posted by Cafeterialoca (1503 posts) - - Show Bio

Also, I really miss the Thunderbolts just being a team of villains wanting to change a leaf and not villains FORCED to change. They didn't accept killers, just villains who regretted their actions.

#24 Posted by sithfrog (909 posts) - - Show Bio

@Cafeterialoca said:

Also, I really miss the Thunderbolts just being a team of villains wanting to change a leaf and not villains FORCED to change. They didn't accept killers, just villains who regretted their actions.

I agree. Something that the original T-Bolts had was the genuine desire to change. I have been a fan of the book throughout it's run, but by far I love reading stories about Songbird and MACH (is it 5 now?). Don't get me wrong, it is interesting to see how some of these violent sociopaths work together, but at the end of the day it's not the same team that had it all but turned on Zemo to do the right thing.

Also, how about we just freeze all of the super criminals in carbonite? That should keep them immobilized for now. If it's good enough for Han Solo...

#25 Posted by Cafeterialoca (1503 posts) - - Show Bio

@sithfrog said:

@Cafeterialoca said:

Also, I really miss the Thunderbolts just being a team of villains wanting to change a leaf and not villains FORCED to change. They didn't accept killers, just villains who regretted their actions.

I agree. Something that the original T-Bolts had was the genuine desire to change. I have been a fan of the book throughout it's run, but by far I love reading stories about Songbird and MACH (is it 5 now?). Don't get me wrong, it is interesting to see how some of these violent sociopaths work together, but at the end of the day it's not the same team that had it all but turned on Zemo to do the right thing.

Also, how about we just freeze all of the super criminals in carbonite? That should keep them immobilized for now. If it's good enough for Han Solo...

Well, that brings up a pretty inhumane system.

It really bugs me how Thunderbolts will always be remember as Marvel's Suicide Squad. If they ever get a movie, they'll probably be shown as that instead of the great first issues where they pretended to be superheroes.

And really, I can't stress it enough, MORE PEOPLE NEED TO KNOW ABOUT SONGBIRD!!!!

Women of Marvel Digital 6 ...
Women of Marvel Digital 6 ...
#26 Posted by RedheadedAtrocitus (6885 posts) - - Show Bio

Total violence of ethics and morals no doubt but sometimes I guess it takes the bad @$$ to get the job done. Like the statement says "Sometimes it takes the Devil to do God's work." As far as controlling them...hell, that's a toss up whether it could actually be done. Maybe for a time the government could, but there would be problems afterward. Good short term idea...but over the long term, nothing but a problematic proposition.

#27 Posted by CircularLogic (282 posts) - - Show Bio

The thunderbolts and suicide squad isn't that different than what they used to do during the vietnam war (not sure if it's still around), where they would give criminals a pass or lighter sentence if they joined the army, which put them at great risk and gave them a whole bunch of skill sets that easily translate into crime. just extrapolate that into super-villains saving the world.

And while I prefer thunderbolts while they actually tried to be heroes, I hated things like when it was run by Norman Osborn, which is similar to what they do in post reboot suicide squad: they served the agenda of the man/woman in charge (Osborn and Amanda Waller), making them just a team of villains not getting arrested. At least the current incarnation is actually made to do good, whereas Amanda Waller's is blatantly being evil.

#28 Posted by Cafeterialoca (1503 posts) - - Show Bio

@CircularLogic said:

The thunderbolts and suicide squad isn't that different than what they used to do during the vietnam war (not sure if it's still around), where they would give criminals a pass or lighter sentence if they joined the army, which put them at great risk and gave them a whole bunch of skill sets that easily translate into crime. just extrapolate that into super-villains saving the world.

And while I prefer thunderbolts while they actually tried to be heroes, I hated things like when it was run by Norman Osborn, which is similar to what they do in post reboot suicide squad: they served the agenda of the man/woman in charge (Osborn and Amanda Waller), making them just a team of villains not getting arrested. At least the current incarnation is actually made to do good, whereas Amanda Waller's is blatantly being evil.

Kill over 500 People in Marvel? Cause for an Event.

Kill over 60,000 People in DC? Eh, poop happens.

WHAT IS WRONG WITH DC?!

#29 Posted by ArtisticNeedham (2234 posts) - - Show Bio

@Cafeterialoca said:

There's villains to trust, and villains you don't trust.

Songbird? You can trust. Bullseye? HELL NO!

@ArtisticNeedham:

I would like to see Wolverine become the leader of the Thunderbolts.

GOD NO!!! Wolverine is overrated enough as it is! We don't need his stink all over the Thunderbolts!!! We get it! He stabs people! But he's NO THUNDERBOLT!

Thunderbolts are villains who want to do good! You know which X-Men would make a better Thunderbolt than Wolverine? Rogue! Wolverine doesn't get what the Thunderbolts have gone through! Heck, he'd probably undermine Songbird! And lord knows she's seen the good and the bad that happens with the redemption of super villains!

Seriously, if any of you talk about Thunderbolts and don't know this face:

Issue 168

Then you won't get Thunderbolts!

What I mean is from a realistic point of view, Luke Cage shouldn't be in charge of the Thunderbolts. Not because he is incapable, because he is very capable. But because he is a husband and new father. Why would he want to lead a team of former super criminals and killers who are very likely going to try to kill him at some point? The heroes in Marvel know Wolverine, basically, can't die. So why not put the guy who is hard to kill and willing to kill if he sees its necessary in charge of super killers? Of coarse he would have to drop one of his other teams, probably the Avengers. Move him from Avengers to Thunderbolts. I also thought it was strange when Spider-Man was encouraging Luke's wife Jessica Jones to go back into the dangerous world of super-heroics. Not because she shouldn't but because I would think he would see how dangerous it is and how she doesn't have to do it. Anyway, I just think Wolverine might make a good Thunderbolts leader, but you can dissagree.

I do miss the old days of the team of villains trying to be heroes too.

#30 Posted by RUKM (279 posts) - - Show Bio

If you aren't going to give them a chance to redeem themselves than do what the Punisher does Kill'em

#31 Posted by DiamondRhino (7 posts) - - Show Bio

I never knew Sandman was imprisoned... Makes sense though. Can't he just slip out, though, even if it is more than just a regular local facility?

#32 Posted by CircularLogic (282 posts) - - Show Bio

@Cafeterialoca: Ain't that the truth. I get that DC deals mainly with world changing chaos while Marvel is more street level, But since the reboot alone I've seen enough people die to populate a small country. I would love for DC's next big event to be "dangerously low human population: Only superheroes, villains, love interests and supporting cast survive the wreckage". Read the hell out of that.

#33 Posted by Deadknight (611 posts) - - Show Bio

@ArtisticNeedham: Pretty interesting concept you've got there. A shame that it didn't go through because of a glitch. I could kind of see your idea as a variation of X-Statix Presents: Dead Girl, but with more of the Thunderbolts concept tossed in.

#34 Posted by Cafeterialoca (1503 posts) - - Show Bio

@ArtisticNeedham said:

@Cafeterialoca said:

There's villains to trust, and villains you don't trust.

Songbird? You can trust. Bullseye? HELL NO!

@ArtisticNeedham:

I would like to see Wolverine become the leader of the Thunderbolts.

GOD NO!!! Wolverine is overrated enough as it is! We don't need his stink all over the Thunderbolts!!! We get it! He stabs people! But he's NO THUNDERBOLT!

Thunderbolts are villains who want to do good! You know which X-Men would make a better Thunderbolt than Wolverine? Rogue! Wolverine doesn't get what the Thunderbolts have gone through! Heck, he'd probably undermine Songbird! And lord knows she's seen the good and the bad that happens with the redemption of super villains!

Seriously, if any of you talk about Thunderbolts and don't know this face:

Issue 168

Then you won't get Thunderbolts!

What I mean is from a realistic point of view, Luke Cage shouldn't be in charge of the Thunderbolts. Not because he is incapable, because he is very capable. But because he is a husband and new father. Why would he want to lead a team of former super criminals and killers who are very likely going to try to kill him at some point? The heroes in Marvel know Wolverine, basically, can't die. So why not put the guy who is hard to kill and willing to kill if he sees its necessary in charge of super killers? Of coarse he would have to drop one of his other teams, probably the Avengers. Move him from Avengers to Thunderbolts. I also thought it was strange when Spider-Man was encouraging Luke's wife Jessica Jones to go back into the dangerous world of super-heroics. Not because she shouldn't but because I would think he would see how dangerous it is and how she doesn't have to do it. Anyway, I just think Wolverine might make a good Thunderbolts leader, but you can dissagree.

I do miss the old days of the team of villains trying to be heroes too.

You keep saying you need a killer to lead super villain killers. Thing is, Thunderbolts usually aren't about hiring killers. It's about redemption. When Hawkeye led the team, he said he wouldn't allow killers, and even made Mach II go to jail for long periods of time. The reason Luke Cage was picked was because he understands what it feels like to be thrown in jail and wanting to do better. Wolverine hasn't had that experience. Hawkeye and Luke Cage have. They don't need some bloodthirsty beast to scare them in line, they needs a guiding hand to try and make them do better!

#35 Posted by Cafeterialoca (1503 posts) - - Show Bio

@CircularLogic: Eventually it'll twiddle down to the Batman and the Joker. And Batman still refusing to kill him.

#36 Posted by DEGRAAF (7870 posts) - - Show Bio

I think it is a good idea. I think it should be optional. The villains shouldnt be forced to do it and if they choose to do it i would make it a ratio of their sentence (ex: life sentence {probably wouldnt offer it to them for the first 10-15 yrs} they would have to be in my suicide squad for 15 years). Also i like the idea of implanting an explosive or some kind of deterent to keep them in line. You cant really trust them to stay on the up and up

#37 Posted by FadeToBlackBolt (23334 posts) - - Show Bio

I think it's a great idea, providing it's written by anyone other than Bendis and Luke Cage isn't involved.

#38 Posted by ArtisticNeedham (2234 posts) - - Show Bio

@Cafeterialoca said:

@ArtisticNeedham said:

@Cafeterialoca said:

There's villains to trust, and villains you don't trust.

Songbird? You can trust. Bullseye? HELL NO!

@ArtisticNeedham:

I would like to see Wolverine become the leader of the Thunderbolts.

GOD NO!!! Wolverine is overrated enough as it is! We don't need his stink all over the Thunderbolts!!! We get it! He stabs people! But he's NO THUNDERBOLT!

Thunderbolts are villains who want to do good! You know which X-Men would make a better Thunderbolt than Wolverine? Rogue! Wolverine doesn't get what the Thunderbolts have gone through! Heck, he'd probably undermine Songbird! And lord knows she's seen the good and the bad that happens with the redemption of super villains!

Seriously, if any of you talk about Thunderbolts and don't know this face:

Issue 168

Then you won't get Thunderbolts!

What I mean is from a realistic point of view, Luke Cage shouldn't be in charge of the Thunderbolts. Not because he is incapable, because he is very capable. But because he is a husband and new father. Why would he want to lead a team of former super criminals and killers who are very likely going to try to kill him at some point? The heroes in Marvel know Wolverine, basically, can't die. So why not put the guy who is hard to kill and willing to kill if he sees its necessary in charge of super killers? Of coarse he would have to drop one of his other teams, probably the Avengers. Move him from Avengers to Thunderbolts. I also thought it was strange when Spider-Man was encouraging Luke's wife Jessica Jones to go back into the dangerous world of super-heroics. Not because she shouldn't but because I would think he would see how dangerous it is and how she doesn't have to do it. Anyway, I just think Wolverine might make a good Thunderbolts leader, but you can dissagree.

I do miss the old days of the team of villains trying to be heroes too.

You keep saying you need a killer to lead super villain killers. Thing is, Thunderbolts usually aren't about hiring killers. It's about redemption. When Hawkeye led the team, he said he wouldn't allow killers, and even made Mach II go to jail for long periods of time. The reason Luke Cage was picked was because he understands what it feels like to be thrown in jail and wanting to do better. Wolverine hasn't had that experience. Hawkeye and Luke Cage have. They don't need some bloodthirsty beast to scare them in line, they needs a guiding hand to try and make them do better!

Wolverine, to me, is a man who was turned into a killer/ultimate weapon. He is good at killing, the best, perfect at it, but he hates it. He hates himself for being good at it. He kills because he knows he is good at it and people need to get killed from time to time, but hate its. Thats why he opened that new school, so these kids wouldn't have to kill or fight. He feels like his life is a failure because its all about killing, so if he can get these kids to not become killers he will have succeeded in something. So if he led the Thunderbolts it could be similar, sure the outward appearance of the comic and his tone would seem like "If you try to step out of line I'll kill you." But the underlying message could be redemption still, it goes along with Wolverine's new direction in comics, opening the school, being an Avenger, and now he could also lead the Thunderbolts.

But the tone could also become like a Dirty Dozen type book, these are gruff hardened super criminals, the guy who looks like a many armed Spider-Man used to be a giant spider and killed a guy. So maybe, while the underlying message is redemption, the outward tone would be that these are hardened criminals who hate being there and want out but the team leader is this gruff anti-hero who wont let them get out of line. Maybe because of the new team members coming in, who seem like vicious killers, the book could take a new direction. Evolve/mutate into something else. This is all just my own ideas for fun by the way. I don't work at Marvel... yet. So I doubt they will listen to my posts here.

I understand the redemption thing with Luke Cage and Hawkeye, I was just thinking of a fun idea that I think could also work.

#39 Posted by ArtisticNeedham (2234 posts) - - Show Bio

@Deadknight: Thanks. I like the whole Exiles type thing, where these heroes have to travel outside of reality and go on secret missions in alternate realities and stuff. I thought it would also be a great way to use dead characters like Kraven or Thunderbird without bringing them back to life. They are still dead but we can still use them in stories that aren't flashbacks. Glad you liked it, another problem was that my page didn't illustrate the whole idea, it was just a page from the comic.

#40 Posted by Kade_Kilgore (8 posts) - - Show Bio

Eh. I'm unsure of the idea. Granted you have resources you can now use, but I don't think it's right. I mean apart from what's said do they really learn anything when they have a system that gets them out early?

#41 Posted by Cafeterialoca (1503 posts) - - Show Bio

@ArtisticNeedham said:

@Cafeterialoca said:

@ArtisticNeedham said:

@Cafeterialoca said:

There's villains to trust, and villains you don't trust.

Songbird? You can trust. Bullseye? HELL NO!

@ArtisticNeedham:

I would like to see Wolverine become the leader of the Thunderbolts.

GOD NO!!! Wolverine is overrated enough as it is! We don't need his stink all over the Thunderbolts!!! We get it! He stabs people! But he's NO THUNDERBOLT!

Thunderbolts are villains who want to do good! You know which X-Men would make a better Thunderbolt than Wolverine? Rogue! Wolverine doesn't get what the Thunderbolts have gone through! Heck, he'd probably undermine Songbird! And lord knows she's seen the good and the bad that happens with the redemption of super villains!

Seriously, if any of you talk about Thunderbolts and don't know this face:

Issue 168

Then you won't get Thunderbolts!

What I mean is from a realistic point of view, Luke Cage shouldn't be in charge of the Thunderbolts. Not because he is incapable, because he is very capable. But because he is a husband and new father. Why would he want to lead a team of former super criminals and killers who are very likely going to try to kill him at some point? The heroes in Marvel know Wolverine, basically, can't die. So why not put the guy who is hard to kill and willing to kill if he sees its necessary in charge of super killers? Of coarse he would have to drop one of his other teams, probably the Avengers. Move him from Avengers to Thunderbolts. I also thought it was strange when Spider-Man was encouraging Luke's wife Jessica Jones to go back into the dangerous world of super-heroics. Not because she shouldn't but because I would think he would see how dangerous it is and how she doesn't have to do it. Anyway, I just think Wolverine might make a good Thunderbolts leader, but you can dissagree.

I do miss the old days of the team of villains trying to be heroes too.

You keep saying you need a killer to lead super villain killers. Thing is, Thunderbolts usually aren't about hiring killers. It's about redemption. When Hawkeye led the team, he said he wouldn't allow killers, and even made Mach II go to jail for long periods of time. The reason Luke Cage was picked was because he understands what it feels like to be thrown in jail and wanting to do better. Wolverine hasn't had that experience. Hawkeye and Luke Cage have. They don't need some bloodthirsty beast to scare them in line, they needs a guiding hand to try and make them do better!

Wolverine, to me, is a man who was turned into a killer/ultimate weapon. He is good at killing, the best, perfect at it, but he hates it. He hates himself for being good at it. He kills because he knows he is good at it and people need to get killed from time to time, but hate its. Thats why he opened that new school, so these kids wouldn't have to kill or fight. He feels like his life is a failure because its all about killing, so if he can get these kids to not become killers he will have succeeded in something. So if he led the Thunderbolts it could be similar, sure the outward appearance of the comic and his tone would seem like "If you try to step out of line I'll kill you." But the underlying message could be redemption still, it goes along with Wolverine's new direction in comics, opening the school, being an Avenger, and now he could also lead the Thunderbolts.

But the tone could also become like a Dirty Dozen type book, these are gruff hardened super criminals, the guy who looks like a many armed Spider-Man used to be a giant spider and killed a guy. So maybe, while the underlying message is redemption, the outward tone would be that these are hardened criminals who hate being there and want out but the team leader is this gruff anti-hero who wont let them get out of line. Maybe because of the new team members coming in, who seem like vicious killers, the book could take a new direction. Evolve/mutate into something else. This is all just my own ideas for fun by the way. I don't work at Marvel... yet. So I doubt they will listen to my posts here.

I understand the redemption thing with Luke Cage and Hawkeye, I was just thinking of a fun idea that I think could also work.

Again, I just don't see Wolverine as Thunderbolt material. He just hasn't redeemed himself like the others, so why should he get another team? I mean, Songbird has been the right hand for the longest time on the team, and she never resorted to killing. Ever.

#42 Posted by ArtisticNeedham (2234 posts) - - Show Bio

@Cafeterialoca said:

@ArtisticNeedham said:

@Cafeterialoca said:

@ArtisticNeedham said:

@Cafeterialoca said:

There's villains to trust, and villains you don't trust.

Songbird? You can trust. Bullseye? HELL NO!

@ArtisticNeedham:

I would like to see Wolverine become the leader of the Thunderbolts.

GOD NO!!! Wolverine is overrated enough as it is! We don't need his stink all over the Thunderbolts!!! We get it! He stabs people! But he's NO THUNDERBOLT!

Thunderbolts are villains who want to do good! You know which X-Men would make a better Thunderbolt than Wolverine? Rogue! Wolverine doesn't get what the Thunderbolts have gone through! Heck, he'd probably undermine Songbird! And lord knows she's seen the good and the bad that happens with the redemption of super villains!

Seriously, if any of you talk about Thunderbolts and don't know this face:

Issue 168

Then you won't get Thunderbolts!

What I mean is from a realistic point of view, Luke Cage shouldn't be in charge of the Thunderbolts. Not because he is incapable, because he is very capable. But because he is a husband and new father. Why would he want to lead a team of former super criminals and killers who are very likely going to try to kill him at some point? The heroes in Marvel know Wolverine, basically, can't die. So why not put the guy who is hard to kill and willing to kill if he sees its necessary in charge of super killers? Of coarse he would have to drop one of his other teams, probably the Avengers. Move him from Avengers to Thunderbolts. I also thought it was strange when Spider-Man was encouraging Luke's wife Jessica Jones to go back into the dangerous world of super-heroics. Not because she shouldn't but because I would think he would see how dangerous it is and how she doesn't have to do it. Anyway, I just think Wolverine might make a good Thunderbolts leader, but you can dissagree.

I do miss the old days of the team of villains trying to be heroes too.

You keep saying you need a killer to lead super villain killers. Thing is, Thunderbolts usually aren't about hiring killers. It's about redemption. When Hawkeye led the team, he said he wouldn't allow killers, and even made Mach II go to jail for long periods of time. The reason Luke Cage was picked was because he understands what it feels like to be thrown in jail and wanting to do better. Wolverine hasn't had that experience. Hawkeye and Luke Cage have. They don't need some bloodthirsty beast to scare them in line, they needs a guiding hand to try and make them do better!

Wolverine, to me, is a man who was turned into a killer/ultimate weapon. He is good at killing, the best, perfect at it, but he hates it. He hates himself for being good at it. He kills because he knows he is good at it and people need to get killed from time to time, but hate its. Thats why he opened that new school, so these kids wouldn't have to kill or fight. He feels like his life is a failure because its all about killing, so if he can get these kids to not become killers he will have succeeded in something. So if he led the Thunderbolts it could be similar, sure the outward appearance of the comic and his tone would seem like "If you try to step out of line I'll kill you." But the underlying message could be redemption still, it goes along with Wolverine's new direction in comics, opening the school, being an Avenger, and now he could also lead the Thunderbolts.

But the tone could also become like a Dirty Dozen type book, these are gruff hardened super criminals, the guy who looks like a many armed Spider-Man used to be a giant spider and killed a guy. So maybe, while the underlying message is redemption, the outward tone would be that these are hardened criminals who hate being there and want out but the team leader is this gruff anti-hero who wont let them get out of line. Maybe because of the new team members coming in, who seem like vicious killers, the book could take a new direction. Evolve/mutate into something else. This is all just my own ideas for fun by the way. I don't work at Marvel... yet. So I doubt they will listen to my posts here.

I understand the redemption thing with Luke Cage and Hawkeye, I was just thinking of a fun idea that I think could also work.

Again, I just don't see Wolverine as Thunderbolt material. He just hasn't redeemed himself like the others, so why should he get another team? I mean, Songbird has been the right hand for the longest time on the team, and she never resorted to killing. Ever.

Yeah, I'd also like to see Songbird become a leader of the team and a bigger part of the Marvel universe. Remember when she was in Avengers Forever, it was said she would be a future Avenger and a very god heroic one too. When will that happen?

Also, maybe that run of Thunderbolts where Wolverine is the leader wouldn't just be about the new team redeeming themselves but Wolverine redeeming himself as well. Because he feels he is beyond redemption he would get redeemed without even meaning to while leading this team of super criminals and killers who become redeemed too. That sounds like a good story too.

#43 Posted by Cafeterialoca (1503 posts) - - Show Bio

@ArtisticNeedham: I'm nuts about Songbird. One of the most under appreciated Marvel Characters.

And to be honest, I just don't want Wolverine everywhere. He's the number 1 X-Men, he's now all over the Avengers, I just like that there's one Marvel Team which he is not a part of.

#44 Posted by Enosisik (1153 posts) - - Show Bio

Most supervillain are supervillain because they simply want to be super-villains. Yes some kinda are right on the edge and still have some good in them but most of the ones that would really be powerhouses and make an interesting story wouldn't be interested. Or they'd just fake it and escape. I love Thunderbolts , so I do like the idea but I think there is deffinitly a conflict in continuity that may come along.

#45 Edited by ArtisticNeedham (2234 posts) - - Show Bio

There was a Millennium comic that showed Hawkeye leading the Thunderbolts (this was back in 2000) and the team would take bad guys like Absorbing Man and such and rehabilitate them, sometimes using the Ringmaster's hypnotizing top hat. I always thought that was a cool idea, rehabilitating all locked up super bad guys even if they didn't want to, and I just now put two and two together that that is what is happening in Thunderbolts.

I wanna see D list super bad guys getting rehabilitated too, like the Leap Frog or Hypno Hustler. Maybe they could make great heroes. Not really, but just an idea I wanted to toss out there.

@Cafeterialoca: I would want him to drop one of the other titles too before he became the leader too. I am pretty sure trying to kill Captain America in AvX was his resignation from the Avengers. So I think he is out, but I wouldn't want him all over the place either. I think what Marvel has done is to say that this is the big superhero community. After years of saving the day they eventually all know one another and all work together. So its realistic to think that in any given situation they could all call on one another. Its sort of like the JLU cartoon. So many heroes, many or most know one another, and they can all help when they aren't busy. So maybe Marvel is trying to show something like that. I had a clearer idea of what I was trying to say about the Superhero community but I think I got part of it out.

#46 Posted by Cafeterialoca (1503 posts) - - Show Bio

@ArtisticNeedham: Actually, Wolverine still gave Cap Hope in the next issue, so they're buds again.

#47 Posted by ExtraLarge (243 posts) - - Show Bio

There should be different levels of activity for different levels of inmates. Death row inmates should be sent on the missions that will most likely kill most or all of the team. Minimum security inmates should be given rescue missions or other types of missions that may lead them off the criminal path.

#48 Posted by Nahero (9915 posts) - - Show Bio

Wow this is nicely pointed out, well to be honest I think supervillains (depending on who were talking about) like all criminals if given the chance to do ome recreational work, stuff i read about i don't remember what, they can get better but if there's no improvement on their part then they can't be redeemed and even if they get out of prison ppl are just so out of the loop to not to give them the benefit of the doubt. characters like Songbird its like she's done so much good already despite her supervillain past shes bound to be an avenger one day, and satana :3 If the whole sorcerer supreme position didn't end with brother voodoo she'd so be elected the job.

#49 Posted by Darkseidis (54 posts) - - Show Bio

Depends what villains.

#50 Posted by KidSupreme (824 posts) - - Show Bio

I like that idea:D