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#1 Posted by Jnr6Lil (7717 posts) - - Show Bio

Was reading some Batman articles on What Culture? I was really thinking about how there isn't any logic in comics, Examples:

No one ever killing the Joker

Batman taking a child in as a sidekick.

Agree?

#2 Edited by spidermanandsuperman (283 posts) - - Show Bio

@jnr6lil: why can't batman just make a huge exception to his no kill creed and kill the joker and yes I agree

#3 Edited by krunkeela (188 posts) - - Show Bio

Maybe he has a phobia of some sorts.

#4 Posted by SC (13266 posts) - - Show Bio

Logic is basically about reasoning, validity, soundness and knowledge. Fiction can have those things and they generally inherently do, just they are under no obligation to behave and exist as they do in reality. Which to me means there is actually logic in comics, but it obviously doesn't behave or act the same way as in reality - its a lot more relative and dependent on subjective factors (writer, artist, editor etc among other things)

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#5 Edited by Wolfrazer (7278 posts) - - Show Bio

Or how about this, in his own series he has trouble with his rogues and yet when with the JL and others he is able to take on high tier beings. So is Batman a street level character or not?

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#6 Edited by Extremis (3361 posts) - - Show Bio

@jnr6lil: well Batman won't kill the joker because then he compromises everything he stands for in the process. If someone were to kill the Joker they'd become the evil they sought out to put an end to. It has more to do with maintaining ones own integrity and humanity. These are the qualities that make us human and what we strive for.

It has more to do with these things, like ethics, than logic. And if it did its arguable at best that killing the joker is the right thing to do, for reasons I've stated above. Really what you claim to be logic is just representative of one side of the argument for capital punishment. So, either way, its sibjective but you definitely bring up an interesting issue.

#7 Posted by Bogey (949 posts) - - Show Bio

Or how about this, in his own series he has trouble with his rogues and yet when with the JL and others he is able to take on high tier beings. So is Batman a street level character or not?

If Batman has problem with his rogue gallery it's due to him running solo and reacting to the villains first move that they planned for the occasion. In the JL, he has time to fall back and assess the situation while his team works against the villains. Plus he's packing more punch to take out multiple threats.

#8 Posted by Veshark (9058 posts) - - Show Bio

It's all about the degrees of your suspension of disbelief.

#9 Posted by GreatCaesarsGhost (3396 posts) - - Show Bio

@jnr6lil said:

Was reading some Batman articles on What Culture? I was really thinking about how there isn't any logic in comics, Examples:

No one ever killing the Joker

Batman taking a child in as a sidekick.

Agree?

Not killing the Joker is one of those things that is really played out, and it takes every bit of his will not to kill him at times.

And here's what happens to one of those boys he decides to take as a sidekick. A mistake that Batman blames himself for and calls "his greatest failure." So there's some logic for you. Remember though that comics are meant to be fun, so try not to over think the core of a character, and just throw yourself into the stories.

#10 Posted by Alak (928 posts) - - Show Bio

Superheroes like Batman act as enforcers of the law. Granted, they sometimes break civilian laws in order to apprehend criminals, but in their mind they are simply enforcers at the end of the day. It's not their place to act as the judge. It's not their place to act as the executioner. Some vigilantes think otherwise (i.e.- Punisher), but that gives other heroes (i.e.- Captain America) a good reason to hate these types of crime fighters. Don't talk about Batman not killing as being illogical. Talk about the Gotham judicial system not executing mass murderers like Joker, and call it out as illogical. Talk about Arkham Asylum's security being a joke compared to Black Gate Prison's security, even though the former houses way more dangerous criminals. Joker isn't Batman's responsibility. He's the GCPD's responsibility. Batman only takes him in because the police can't seem to get their act together. Yet, the moment that Batman kills the Joker will be the moment that he becomes a murderer himself.

Here are some really illogical things you need to point out in comics:

  • Healing factors taken to the impossible extreme.
  • Tiny scarabs defying the law of conservation of mass by transforming into a full suit of armor.
  • Being able to fit an unfathomable amount of web fluid in a small wrist-sized cartridge.
  • Regular humans being able to lift 2000+ lbs. while still capable of running a 3 minute mile.
  • Having a finite quantity of gamma radiation infused in your body, but somehow being able to emit an infinite amount of gamma rays after the incident.
  • Heroes/villains with body stretching powers who can extend their limbs much longer than they should due to the limited number of cells that comprise their anatomy.
  • Villains with reality warping powers and great ambitions not getting what they want due to PIS.
  • Those whose bodies that get shattered/vaporized/blown up and still have the mental consciousness to pull themselves back together.
  • Needing only solar energy to metabolize bodily functions (not even plants can survive off photosynthesis alone).
  • Cosmic entities and their power derivations.
  • Magical entities and their power derivations.
  • Being able to conceal one's identity despite having obvious physical features such as facial hair or tattoos.
  • Heroes who can transform into animals while abiding by the law of conservation of mass.
  • Being able to shrink down to the size of an insect while still keeping the same physical strength as a human being.
  • Any hero/villain with the ability to manipulate the weather on a whim.
  • Being able to hear sniper fire before the bullet reaches you.
  • Creating sonic booms by snapping your fingers really fast.
  • The infamous thunder clap.
  • The infamous infinity mass punch.
  • Somehow repairing a damaged spine with a computer chip.
  • Humans being able to easily hack into alien software despite the fact that they've never been exposed to this sort of technology before.

That's just the tip of a very large iceberg. Comics don't make sense, and you know what? That's ok! If you really want to get into logic, then you're opening up a huge can of worms. Sure, we all have different degrees of tolerance when reading fiction. If Batman having a 9-year old boy as a side-kick ticks you off, then by all means that's your peeve. I'm someone who studied both politics and science in college, so nearly everything in the world of comic books has the potential to drive me nuts. I simply let it slide and suspend myself in disbelief. Otherwise, I'll never be able to enjoy anything.

#11 Posted by InnerVenom123 (29510 posts) - - Show Bio

WHY DOESN'T BATMAN JUST KILL THE JOKER? thread #402358023502375923923589 on the internet.

#12 Posted by waezi2 (8138 posts) - - Show Bio

@jnr6lil: You think that is illogical?

Why does Batman fight crime with his fists instead of building a robot army?

How old IS Damian anyway, if superheroes appeared 5 years ago?

How does Twoface speak?

How come there is so much technology, like cloningmachines and cyborgparts, and no one not super has it?

How come Superman doesn't share his alien tech with anyone?

And that is just from the top of my head about the DC universe.

#13 Posted by Nerx (15088 posts) - - Show Bio

@jnr6lil: @alak:

One of the things that piss me off is that why is their world so similar to ours. With the existence of supertech, magic, aliens and gods that can be proven by solid evidence they still live in a technological stasis. Things like AIDS/Cancer should be trivial issues that can be solved with the pop of a pill, the reasoning for this retardation is usually 'they are not ready'. Luckily the inventor of the polio medicine did not think the same.

Their world could be so much more, and 9/11 in comics is bullsh!t

#14 Posted by Cezar_TheScribe (2615 posts) - - Show Bio

There's no real logic in life sometimes either.

The Black Mask should take a more prominent roll, at least for awhile.

The military takes children. Eighteen is too young.

The ability to be a superhero in a fictional world, eighteen is just fine.

#15 Edited by TheManInTheShoe (3878 posts) - - Show Bio

Maybe, just maybe, it's a freakin' FICTIONAL comic book.

#16 Posted by Nerx (15088 posts) - - Show Bio

PIS

the hell do they care about dead Americans?

Magneto hates humans and doom did worse things back then

#17 Posted by ssejllenrad (12847 posts) - - Show Bio

@nerx said:

PIS

the hell do they care about dead Americans?

Magneto hates humans and doom did worse things back then

1. Doom is lamenting the deaths of the terrorists. He feels it isn't right cause a Doombot could have done it for free.
2. Magneto is just concerned about the dead mutants.
3. Kingpin is a faker. He would profit from building the new tower like a true mob boss.
4. Octopus just wants to be in the picture.

#18 Posted by Nerx (15088 posts) - - Show Bio

@ssejllenrad: PIS is because with all their tech and whatnot the 9/11 still took place, I mean they have magicians and cosmics at the beck of their call.

1. Doom is lamenting the deaths of the terrorists. He feels it isn't right cause a Doombot could have done it for free. [the poor foreigners]

2. Magneto is just concerned about the dead mutants. [poor minorities]

3. Kingpin is a faker. He would profit from building the new tower like a true mob boss. [like a true bawse]

4. Octopus just wants to be in the picture. [photobombing]

#19 Posted by ssejllenrad (12847 posts) - - Show Bio

@nerx: That's because they underestimated the power of the terrorist... Or the actor paid to act like a terrorist by a conglomerate big boss.

#20 Posted by Nerx (15088 posts) - - Show Bio
#21 Posted by waezi2 (8138 posts) - - Show Bio

@nerx: You have a point.

I actually think there is a explanation for 9/11 in comics, but I remember it as cheep.

#22 Posted by Nerx (15088 posts) - - Show Bio

@waezi2: It is weak plot and stupid, also they could resurrect the people or instantly rebuild the premises.

#23 Edited by ssejllenrad (12847 posts) - - Show Bio

Does DC have a 9/11?

#24 Edited by waezi2 (8138 posts) - - Show Bio

@nerx: Come on, they are not inhuman... Or maybe Magneto would count as, since he technically is from another species.

Yes, Kingpin has hands dripping with blood, but he excuse it with being business, so even HE must consider 9/11 as a, well, 9/11.

Dr. Doom may be a monster, but he also does what he does because he honestly believe he is doing mankind a favor. He actually created world peace, until the Avengers undid it.

Magneto doesn't want dead to humanity, but want mutants to rule, because he believe in peace trough might.

Dr. Octopus... you may be right about him, its hard to say really.

#25 Posted by Nerx (15088 posts) - - Show Bio

@waezi2:

Mags tried to destroy the world several times

Kingpin, bad for the business

Doom has done bad things

Ock does not belong here

where is damage control?

@ssejllenrad:

Just a memorial type, not as embarrassing as marvels

#26 Edited by waezi2 (8138 posts) - - Show Bio

@nerx: When did Maggy try to destroy the world?

Kingpin can be debated

Yes he has, but with a purpose for his plans, and not innocent bystanders.

I agree

They properly don't want to mess with Juggernaut

#27 Posted by sinestro_GL (3253 posts) - - Show Bio

Seriously? A man can freakin' fly and that's the only problem with logic you've got?

#28 Posted by Nerx (15088 posts) - - Show Bio

@waezi2: Threatening to shift earth's orbit with the machine and nearly doing so if it was not for the x-men

#29 Posted by waezi2 (8138 posts) - - Show Bio

Why would he do that? then the mutants would die to.

....

Whait, is that from a Ultimatum comic?

#30 Posted by Nerx (15088 posts) - - Show Bio

@waezi2: nope, the one where his clone joseph sacrificed his life

#31 Posted by waezi2 (8138 posts) - - Show Bio

@nerx: His...

What comic is that? Can you tell me? It sounds weird.

#32 Posted by Nerx (15088 posts) - - Show Bio
#33 Edited by lykopis (10746 posts) - - Show Bio

Suspense of belief is required with comics dealing with super-heroes and cosmic entities --- I think it's probably one of the hardest things a writer has to deal with in that he/she would be aware they can pretty much do what they want but they can be heralded as the biggest jokes ever (I still can't wrap my head around Wolverine being reduced to his adamantium chassis -- having it ripped out of his body nearly killed him and drove him into a feral state for crying out loud in one of the biggest story arcs in the character's past)...

Anyhoo -- it's a balance of the two and yes, we readers can be a fickle bunch but I don't think it's too much for us to roll our eyes at some of the blatant inconsistencies. Sometimes it's unavoidable (the instance of 9/11 is a big one) and that can be taken with a grain of salt and other times it can be annoying when a writer disregards previously established characterization of canon and goes hog-wild with OOC sequences or overblown (and underblown) power-sets for the sake of a story he/she wants told.

Really, at the crux of it all -- everyone has to ignore the pink elephant in the room - creative team and reader alike to enjoy the story and as a fan, I've accepted it. I couldn't be a fan otherwise. It was easier when I was younger though, lol.

#34 Edited by waezi2 (8138 posts) - - Show Bio
#35 Posted by fury714 (589 posts) - - Show Bio

Logic in comics?

Ain't nobody...

#36 Edited by Nerx (15088 posts) - - Show Bio
#37 Edited by dum529001 (1650 posts) - - Show Bio

@alak said:

Superheroes like Batman act as enforcers of the law. Granted, they sometimes break civilian laws in order to apprehend criminals, but in their mind they are simply enforcers at the end of the day. It's not their place to act as the judge. It's not their place to act as the executioner. Some vigilantes think otherwise (i.e.- Punisher), but that gives other heroes (i.e.- Captain America) a good reason to hate these types of crime fighters. Don't talk about Batman not killing as being illogical. Talk about the Gotham judicial system not executing mass murderers like Joker, and call it out as illogical. Talk about Arkham Asylum's security being a joke compared to Black Gate Prison's security, even though the former houses way more dangerous criminals. Joker isn't Batman's responsibility. He's the GCPD's responsibility. Batman only takes him in because the police can't seem to get their act together. Yet, the moment that Batman kills the Joker will be the moment that he becomes a murderer himself.

Here are some really illogical things you need to point out in comics:

  • Healing factors taken to the impossible extreme.
  • Tiny scarabs defying the law of conservation of mass by transforming into a full suit of armor.
  • Being able to fit an unfathomable amount of web fluid in a small wrist-sized cartridge.
  • Regular humans being able to lift 2000+ lbs. while still capable of running a 3 minute mile.
  • Having a finite quantity of gamma radiation infused in your body, but somehow being able to emit an infinite amount of gamma rays after the incident.
  • Heroes/villains with body stretching powers who can extend their limbs much longer than they should due to the limited number of cells that comprise their anatomy.
  • Villains with reality warping powers and great ambitions not getting what they want due to PIS.
  • Those whose bodies that get shattered/vaporized/blown up and still have the mental consciousness to pull themselves back together.
  • Needing only solar energy to metabolize bodily functions (not even plants can survive off photosynthesis alone).
  • Cosmic entities and their power derivations.
  • Magical entities and their power derivations.
  • Being able to conceal one's identity despite having obvious physical features such as facial hair or tattoos.
  • Heroes who can transform into animals while abiding by the law of conservation of mass.
  • Being able to shrink down to the size of an insect while still keeping the same physical strength as a human being.
  • Any hero/villain with the ability to manipulate the weather on a whim.
  • Being able to hear sniper fire before the bullet reaches you.
  • Creating sonic booms by snapping your fingers really fast.
  • The infamous thunder clap.
  • The infamous infinity mass punch.
  • Somehow repairing a damaged spine with a computer chip.
  • Humans being able to easily hack into alien software despite the fact that they've never been exposed to this sort of technology before.

That's just the tip of a very large iceberg. Comics don't make sense, and you know what? That's ok! If you really want to get into logic, then you're opening up a huge can of worms. Sure, we all have different degrees of tolerance when reading fiction. If Batman having a 9-year old boy as a side-kick ticks you off, then by all means that's your peeve. I'm someone who studied both politics and science in college, so nearly everything in the world of comic books has the potential to drive me nuts. I simply let it slide and suspend myself in disbelief. Otherwise, I'll never be able to enjoy anything.

Not everything on this list is illogical.

You can use a finite amount of energy to get more power, even limitless amounts.

As long as the energy is instantly renewable, like a nuclear pile, you can have a mechanism that continuously extracts energy from any atoms in immediate proximity, to any amount.

And yes, Hulk has actually been compared to nuclear pile in the comics.

And if the durability of the mass you use to contain this energy is also fueled by it, the energy will be contained.

That is how Hulk gets energy when its not being thrown right at him.

And why does Hulk absorb energy (when its amount is comparable to his) when it thrown right at him? Because Hulk is the ultimate energy generator and container.

#38 Posted by tigerkaya (1262 posts) - - Show Bio

Why is everyone saying Batman should kill, he's just an enforcer the real people to blame are Gotham's court system. Joker has admitted several times he'll kill more and will never be redeemed or cured of his insanity. The have several eye witness and thugs that have worked with him and numerous evidence. Just put him in the chair already.

#39 Posted by Oscuro (1123 posts) - - Show Bio

I cant speak for the OP, but I'll say this. For everyone who says that Batman can't compromise who he is or that he is just an enforcer and the judicial system is to blame, to hell with that. Batman isn't a killer and I do understand his need to keep himself from crossing that line, but at the end of the day its his fault the Joker is free. The reason why he slips through the cracks is because Gotham's court system does not work. And Batman has to know this since he is a f-cking genius or something close to one. So if he already knows that the Joker will just escape or get off on a technicality then why would he continue to to turn him over to the "proper" authorities? Isn't he supposed to be protecting people? Every time that sick son of a bitch gets out it just creates more opportunities for young children to be orphaned like him or even worse, DEAD. And then you end up with a generation of vigilantes who will kill or more villains. We know how how well that can turn out.

#40 Posted by divad4686 (182 posts) - - Show Bio

@alak said:

Superheroes like Batman act as enforcers of the law. Granted, they sometimes break civilian laws in order to apprehend criminals, but in their mind they are simply enforcers at the end of the day. It's not their place to act as the judge. It's not their place to act as the executioner. Some vigilantes think otherwise (i.e.- Punisher), but that gives other heroes (i.e.- Captain America) a good reason to hate these types of crime fighters. Don't talk about Batman not killing as being illogical. Talk about the Gotham judicial system not executing mass murderers like Joker, and call it out as illogical. Talk about Arkham Asylum's security being a joke compared to Black Gate Prison's security, even though the former houses way more dangerous criminals. Joker isn't Batman's responsibility. He's the GCPD's responsibility. Batman only takes him in because the police can't seem to get their act together. Yet, the moment that Batman kills the Joker will be the moment that he becomes a murderer himself.

Here are some really illogical things you need to point out in comics:

  • Healing factors taken to the impossible extreme.
  • Tiny scarabs defying the law of conservation of mass by transforming into a full suit of armor.
  • Being able to fit an unfathomable amount of web fluid in a small wrist-sized cartridge.
  • Regular humans being able to lift 2000+ lbs. while still capable of running a 3 minute mile.
  • Having a finite quantity of gamma radiation infused in your body, but somehow being able to emit an infinite amount of gamma rays after the incident.
  • Heroes/villains with body stretching powers who can extend their limbs much longer than they should due to the limited number of cells that comprise their anatomy.
  • Villains with reality warping powers and great ambitions not getting what they want due to PIS.
  • Those whose bodies that get shattered/vaporized/blown up and still have the mental consciousness to pull themselves back together.
  • Needing only solar energy to metabolize bodily functions (not even plants can survive off photosynthesis alone).
  • Cosmic entities and their power derivations.
  • Magical entities and their power derivations.
  • Being able to conceal one's identity despite having obvious physical features such as facial hair or tattoos.
  • Heroes who can transform into animals while abiding by the law of conservation of mass.
  • Being able to shrink down to the size of an insect while still keeping the same physical strength as a human being.
  • Any hero/villain with the ability to manipulate the weather on a whim.
  • Being able to hear sniper fire before the bullet reaches you.
  • Creating sonic booms by snapping your fingers really fast.
  • The infamous thunder clap.
  • The infamous infinity mass punch.
  • Somehow repairing a damaged spine with a computer chip.
  • Humans being able to easily hack into alien software despite the fact that they've never been exposed to this sort of technology before.

That's just the tip of a very large iceberg. Comics don't make sense, and you know what? That's ok! If you really want to get into logic, then you're opening up a huge can of worms. Sure, we all have different degrees of tolerance when reading fiction. If Batman having a 9-year old boy as a side-kick ticks you off, then by all means that's your peeve. I'm someone who studied both politics and science in college, so nearly everything in the world of comic books has the potential to drive me nuts. I simply let it slide and suspend myself in disbelief. Otherwise, I'll never be able to enjoy anything.

Not everything here is illogical because comic physics doesn't have to be the same as real world physics. No logic in comics comes when they are inconsistent with previous rules shown in them before.

#41 Edited by Jnr6Lil (7717 posts) - - Show Bio

Still Joker always gets the insanity card

#42 Posted by Battle_Forum_Junkie (8282 posts) - - Show Bio

@jnr6lil: pfft! Who needs logic in comics? I don't pay 3.99 a month for logic!

#43 Posted by Farkam (4959 posts) - - Show Bio

No logic in comic books? What a groundbreaking discovery!

#44 Edited by End_Boss (738 posts) - - Show Bio

@wolfrazer: I used to think so, but when you really consider all the things he has at his disposal... It's been a long time since Batman was street level. He chooses to forego most of his toys because of a convenient character flaw. He's a glutton for punishment.

Anyway, yeah. He has far too much tech to be considered street-level. The planes, the cars (and tanks), the bikes, the endless gadgets. Power armor of various descriptions and most importantly his own personal tech genius in Lucius Fox.

EDIT: As an example of his convenient character flaw, I'd reference The Dark Knight Returns when he first tries to fight the Mutant leader one-on-one. That wasn't part of his plan. He allowed himself to be goaded into fighting a bigger, younger, stronger and faster man. He got out of the tank he had to get beaten to a bloody pulp.

#45 Posted by KnightRise (4785 posts) - - Show Bio

@nerx said:

PIS

the hell do they care about dead Americans?

Magneto hates humans and doom did worse things back then

The first box literally says that some things "surpass rivalries and border"

#46 Edited by amutant (267 posts) - - Show Bio

Reality lacks logic too.

#47 Edited by Nerx (15088 posts) - - Show Bio

@knightrise: They look like they are posing for the cover of a band, and Doom's eyes do not show sadness rather 'Why the ____ am I here?"

#48 Posted by Jnr6Lil (7717 posts) - - Show Bio

@end_boss said:

@wolfrazer: I used to think so, but when you really consider all the things he has at his disposal... It's been a long time since Batman was street level. He chooses to forego most of his toys because of a convenient character flaw. He's a glutton for punishment.

Anyway, yeah. He has far too much tech to be considered street-level. The planes, the cars (and tanks), the bikes, the endless gadgets. Power armor of various descriptions and most importantly his own personal tech genius in Lucius Fox.

EDIT: As an example of his convenient character flaw, I'd reference The Dark Knight Returns when he first tries to fight the Mutant leader one-on-one. That wasn't part of his plan. He allowed himself to be goaded into fighting a bigger, younger, stronger and faster man. He got out of the tank he had to get beaten to a bloody pulp.

He stopped being street level once he went up against Darkseid.

#49 Posted by JulieDC (1032 posts) - - Show Bio

Way I see it, when you start trying to ask moral questions like why does Batman have a child sidekick, then inevitably you'll have to address the morality of vigilantism in general and well, it just ruins the whole point of fiction when you start requiring it to reflect reality and all the morality that comes with it. I think fiction creates its own kind of logic that is separated from real world logic.

#50 Posted by Celestialseed (96 posts) - - Show Bio

It's the comics it not supposed to be that logical. But every once and a while you get fed-up by too much crap.