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#1 Edited by k4tzm4n (36465 posts) - - Show Bio

Ninja Turtles - Let's Be Reasonable, People

Turtlegate has taken the internet by storm. It doesn't matter what new tidbit of information comes out, a large majority is clinging onto the "OH MY GOD, BAY IS DESTROYING MY CHILDHOOD" mentality. This came after producer (yes, he's not directing) Michael Bay said the following:

These turtles are form an alien race, and they’re going to be tough, edgy, funny and completely loveable.

Was it foolish for him to make such a vague statement? Absolutely. Even though the ooze which mutates the Turtles is in fact from alien technology, it's tough not to get your mind running with the whole "they're from an alien race" part. I, along with many others, instantly thought this meant the four "turtles" would be from an alien planet, likely having a population of turtle looking inhabitants. So, it was healthy to lash out a bit at this, and naturally, almost everyone did. The rampant speculation had almost everyone up in arms, ranging from comic book creators, previous Turtle voice actors, and even made some late night shows (Kimmel, Conan). This sent a powerful message to the team behind Ninja Turtles and it's clear they heard it loud and clear. Director Jonathan Liebesman (Wrath of the Titans, Battle: LA) made this more than transparent during an interview with Collider:

Look, it's so funny. If everyone was such a die-hard fan, they would know that the TCRI canisters where the ooze comes from... that is alien ooze. Now I'm not saying what Michael said is exactly what the movie is, because we're sitting in a room now figuring everything out. So we don't know, but we are like Michael said: we're expanding it, and the expansion will be true to the mythology. I promise you: fans will love it.
Whatever mythology we’re building on or expanding is coming from that guy, Kevin Eastman’s head, who created the Turtles in the first place. And so everything will tie in with the mythology; fans will be extremely excited with what we’re coming up with. A lot of it is stuff he’s wanted to do for a long time, but just hasn’t had the opportunity because now we have the budget and things on this film to expand it in the right way. And so, I’m happy that everyone is extremely passionate, and they will not be disappointed. It’s all coming from the best possible place for this franchise.

The critical part here is "we're sitting in a room now figuring everything out." The outrage over a possible planet full of turtles boomed into their ears (to the point where I imagine they're bleeding). So unless they're trolling us for fun, there is absolutely no way in hell they're going to stick with the idea of a planet full of turtles... assuming of course that was even a possibility to begin with. That crap idea, if it was ever on the table, is almost certainly in the garbage bin at this point.

Objective completed, right? The director heavily implied their origin is going to be inspired by the Mirage comic and Kevin Eastman, the co-creator of the franchise is on-board. The planet of Turtles idea is likely slain and we can throw confetti in the air, yes? Wait, what do you mean people are still screaming and ranting? Michael Bay said something else? Son of a... okay, what did he say to piss off fans now? Bay wrote the following on his forum:

Paramount marketing changed the name. They made the title simple. The characters you all remember are exactly the same, and yes they still act like teenagers. Everything you remember, why you liked the characters, is in the movie. This script is being developed by two very smart writers, with one of the original creators of Ninja Turtles. They care VERY MUCH about making this film for the fans. Everyone on this team cares about the fans. Just give them a chance. Jonathan the director, is a major fan of the whole franchise. HE'S NOT GOING TO LET YOU DOWN.

Hold up, that's it? So the name was changed to Ninja Turtles and the online community is combusting again? *sigh* Few things:

  1. It has been called Ninja Turtles before. Rewind to 1997, the show was called Ninja Turtles: The Next Mutation.
  2. People are blaming Bay for the change? Read the first line. Paramount marketing changed the name. Besides, the name change isn't a big deal nor will that be a deciding factor in the quality of the film.
  3. Don't jump the gun. People are going "THEY LEFT OUT TEENAGE AND MUTANT, SO WTF? THEY AREN'T TEENAGERS OR MUTANTS?" Wait until there's more information, and based on the rest of that statement, it sounds like they'll have the same mentality and will be "mutated" by the alien ooze (per the Director's chat).

Don't get me wrong, nowhere am I defending or supporting Michael Bay as a filmmaker (even though he isn't directing or writing here, mind you) or am I saying this will be a good movie. The entire point of this is the fact that I can't make that call yet (regarding the quality of the movie), and guess what? You can't either. We can't jump to conclusions based on unclear promotional statements that don't even give any solid facts surrounding the film. If they come out and now say "The turtles have a homeworld with other Turtles," then alright, freak out a bit. But in the meantime, this isn't worth the frustration and hate it's receiving. The least you can do is wait for some definitive statements or a trailer before releasing the fanrage kraken.

source: my blog

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#2 Posted by Deranged Midget (17599 posts) - - Show Bio

Excellent post k4tz! I agree completely and like I said before, you are one of the leading experts on the Turtles on the Vine I simply give you kudos for keeping a cool head through this and maintaining hope that this film will stay true to source material and deliver to fans what they've always wanted in a modern TMNT reboot.

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#3 Posted by k4tzm4n (36465 posts) - - Show Bio

@Deranged Midget: Thank you! While I'm a huge fan of the Turtles, I can't take credit for being a leading expert in Turtle mythos. I wish I had the resources, but my old school Turtle comic experience is very limited. I've have, however, filled in the gaps over the years with wikis and such. And I'll be honest, I didn't bother to watch all of the cartoons :X

That said, any luck on getting the new IDW stuff?

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#4 Posted by TheGreyOutcastX (2051 posts) - - Show Bio

The man of reason. You sir are part of the reason I went from ranting fanboy to calm and patient observer on this. Good show. Now people just need to read this and maybe they will finally see something beside Bay.

#5 Posted by k4tzm4n (36465 posts) - - Show Bio

@TheGreyOutcastX: Thanks, man. I certainly hope so.

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#6 Posted by Deranged Midget (17599 posts) - - Show Bio

@k4tzm4n: I still consider you as an expert :P As for now, I've been resorting to traveling out an extra half an hour to a more "prestigious" comic store of sorts to get my TMNT fix , but I also found my old GameCube and TMNT beat-em up so I am more than pleased at the moment! :D

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#7 Posted by TheGreyOutcastX (2051 posts) - - Show Bio

@k4tzm4n: Honesty once you just look past Bay, The movie looks like it's in very good hands. Now people just need to be patient, and reserve judgement after a trailer is released.

#8 Posted by k4tzm4n (36465 posts) - - Show Bio

@Deranged Midget: Awesome! Be sure to share your thoughts when you're caught up with the comic!

I was actually playing the 90s arcade game (on XBL) the other day with a friend. Donatello's range w/ the bo-staff is such an awesome advantage, haha.

@TheGreyOutcastX: Waiting for the trailer is going to be torture, seeing as it's so far away and there is certainly going to be more in the meantime... and I'd be willing to bet that said updates will receive mixed responses ;)

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#9 Posted by TheGreyOutcastX (2051 posts) - - Show Bio

@k4tzm4n: Well mixed responses were gonna be a given no matter what the update is gonna be lol.

#10 Posted by Deranged Midget (17599 posts) - - Show Bio

@k4tzm4n: Which TMNT game? The Re-shelled version or the classic? And you have Xbox?!

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#11 Posted by k4tzm4n (36465 posts) - - Show Bio

@TheGreyOutcastX said:

@k4tzm4n: Well mixed responses were gonna be a given no matter what the update is gonna be lol.

Of course, but that was my polite way of saying "I'm sure there will still be many going 'BAY IS DESTROYING EVERYTHING EVER OH MY GOD!'".... even if the announcement has nothing to do with him. But hey, freedom of speech and all that jazz, right?

@Deranged Midget:

Yup! A 360 and a PS3.

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#12 Posted by Deranged Midget (17599 posts) - - Show Bio

@k4tzm4n: Good man! I've been re-playing the TMNT game based off the 2003 tv series. I used to be massively addicted to it.

What games do you play on 360?

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#13 Posted by joshmightbe (24692 posts) - - Show Bio

I did share the initial freak out but when the director pointed out in the most polite way possible that Bay was talking out of his a$$ I returned to my cautious optimism

#14 Posted by TheGreyOutcastX (2051 posts) - - Show Bio

@k4tzm4n: So long as it doesn't end up like Jazz. I am still mad he had to be the first in the battle to bite it.

#15 Posted by k4tzm4n (36465 posts) - - Show Bio

@Deranged Midget: Hah. I've been slacking with my video games, but I've been playing a lot of horde mode in Gears of War 3. I haven't even bothered with the single player. For my PS I'm stiiiiiiiiiiiill playing Batman: Arkham City and Uncharted 3.

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#16 Posted by k4tzm4n (36465 posts) - - Show Bio

@TheGreyOutcastX said:

@k4tzm4n: So long as it doesn't end up like Jazz. I am still mad he had to be the first in the battle to bite it.

LOL! I think they understand that killing a Turtle in the first film would be a major no-no.

@joshmightbe: Being cautiously optimistic is perfectly healthy :D

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#17 Posted by TheGreyOutcastX (2051 posts) - - Show Bio

@k4tzm4n: One would hope. XD

#18 Posted by Deranged Midget (17599 posts) - - Show Bio

@k4tzm4n: Ha! Taking your sweet time with Arkham City eh? I haven't played the Uncharted series but I've heard good things. Horde mode is ridiculously fun in Gears and I've spent countless hours trying to beat that damn 50th wave >.<

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#19 Posted by k4tzm4n (36465 posts) - - Show Bio

@Deranged Midget: Yeah, like I said, I've been slacking D:

I just beat Freeze, but I don't see myself having a good sitdown with the game anytime soon. And yes, Uncharted is a very well-crafted and fun third person shooter/adventure.

Aye, Horde is a blast. We beat it once, but it was only on normal.

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#20 Posted by CATPANEXE (9368 posts) - - Show Bio

I'll just copy my thoughts over from inferiorego's discussion of the same thing:

Well yes, the name change is no big deal, and the same as I said for the Avengers having variations on their previous costumes, it's to individualize this specific franchise venture and a predictable move. Kind of obvious to anyone really, the first franchise was generally sold under the title Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles, the second venture while under went through experimental name changes, usually involving a sub-header but mainly coined as TMNT, so now it's under Ninja Turtles. Despite how they try and sell it to spenders, it comes down to differentiation of the current franchise from the past ones, as does any subtle tweaks in the physical appearances of the characters themselves. Even the first cartoon show was invariable different from the original Mirage comic books, aka Turtles Prime, and the Konami video games characters subtlety altered from that. No big deal.

As for the Bay statement, again that exact thing has been uttered how many times? How many times has the public been reassured that same thing and that reliable sources and the original makers of the franchise were behind it? Transformers 1, 2, 3, and Nightmare On Elm Street, maybe? I encourage everyone to stand where they choose, myself, well " Fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice, shame on me. ". I also won't be buying into the ~ faith in the Ninja Turtles franchise/persons involved = faith in the abilities of Bay to make a stunning feature and stay loyal to the subject matter ~ idea myself. That's not good math, and in fact resembles any well known scam on Earth. What has Bay shown me so far concerning this? To believe otherwise? Nope, he hasn't, so I'll go with what he has shown me then. " To keep trying the same thing and expect different results is pure insanity." Now, as previously I do have faith in the franchise itself, and am glad it's renewed for a new generation. This will provide many Turtle associated things for me to enjoy. But I don't believe Bay will provide a movie that's anything other than " meh " because that's what he's done so far, one could just as well remove the Turtles from the equation, and just say " Bay's new film " and go from there. So, I am excited that this film is being released and the franchise moving fore ward under new management (more excited for the Nickolodeon series, IDW comics, games, toys, ect), but I'm not going to be hornswaggled by the exact same things that were laid out before (people saying everyone is wrong and overblowing things, Bay claiming this film will be awesome and true to the matter at hand, other people involved claiming Bay will not disappoint, ect.) in thinking I won't be screwed over by Bay's final product, when, all these claims were dead wrong every single time he was involved at the proving point. I'll expect a shoddy movie, with maybe a fun surprise here and there (and probably a few pot brownie jokes).

Again, I don't discourage anyone else to feel what they want. I'm a firm believer in " who is right " is an individual basis, and what makes right is if it makes you feel good, and then I support you in that en-devour. How that equates for me personally is I see optimism as something based in already established patterns that things will inevitably work out well, and if that static evidence is not present, then it's based in intentionally fooling oneself, and thereby committing to delusion rather than optimism. I personally want none of the latter. It doesn't change my love for the Turtles either way. Just that nostalgia factor will at the least be something I enjoy of the film (seeing the Turtles, be it in whatever form). It was for Transformers for me.

#21 Posted by TheGreyOutcastX (2051 posts) - - Show Bio

@CATPANEXE: I understand and respect your position. I find it rather nice when it's a very well thought out evaluation on the matter as opposed to the "OMG Michael Bay" stuff. While I'm optimistic, I'm being cautiously optimistic cause things could still change. They are still writing so it could go south with Bay's input or perhaps the opposite will happen. Time will tell on that. Hence why the "wait and see" approach seems like the most reasonable stance to take right now.

#22 Posted by hectorsquall (1137 posts) - - Show Bio

@k4tzm4n: Great post. We can only hope that it will turn out to be a good movie and it's too soon to know exactly what they are going to do, I agree with you on that.

However we can't blame the majority of people for being upset and freak out. It's always like that on the internet, people hear something and immediately expect the worst. Sadly, it's often the case (look at Transformers) and as long as they don't clearly state that what Michael Bay said is incorrect, without a shadow of a doubt, people will continue to freak out, and rightly so.

It's not only the fact that they changed the title that upsets people, it's the fact that they announced that soon after Michael Bay implied that the turtles "are from an alien race" "and still act like teenagers". There's a big difference between what he said and teenage turtles mutated via alien ooze.

Again we can only hope that it's a false alarm and like you said there's a lot of factors pointing in this direction. If it turns out to be the case, it will only mean that they had the incredible stupidity of letting Michael Bay do the talking in the first place.

About Michael Bay and Jimmy Kimmel, the following demotivational poster pretty much sums up my thoughts on the subject:

#23 Posted by k4tzm4n (36465 posts) - - Show Bio

@hectorsquall: Thanks.

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#24 Posted by k4tzm4n (36465 posts) - - Show Bio

@Deranged Midget: Do you still play horde mode?

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#25 Posted by BiteMe-Fanboy (7594 posts) - - Show Bio

I sure hope this movie is good. But I doubt it will be. But maybe...just maybe.

#26 Posted by k4tzm4n (36465 posts) - - Show Bio

@BiteMe-Fanboy: Only time will tell, sir.

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#27 Posted by Primmaster64 (21138 posts) - - Show Bio
@k4tzm4n: I see...Well at least is not Explosive Turtles.
#28 Posted by k4tzm4n (36465 posts) - - Show Bio

@Primmaster64: Ya never know ;)

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#29 Posted by Primmaster64 (21138 posts) - - Show Bio
@k4tzm4n: ......

NO!!!!!!!!!!!

#30 Posted by entropy_aegis (14478 posts) - - Show Bio

BAY HAS DESTROYED MY CHILDHOOD.

#31 Posted by k4tzm4n (36465 posts) - - Show Bio

@entropy_aegis: lol.

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#32 Posted by BiteMe-Fanboy (7594 posts) - - Show Bio

@k4tzm4n said:

@BiteMe-Fanboy: Only time will tell, sir.

I know..... got my 3 fingers crossed.

#33 Posted by Deranged Midget (17599 posts) - - Show Bio

@BiteMe-Fanboy said:

@k4tzm4n said:

@BiteMe-Fanboy: Only time will tell, sir.

I know..... got my 3 fingers crossed.

I see what you did there ;)

@k4tzm4n: Yeah from time to time, I've only just recently started playing Gears 3 again after a hiatus.

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#34 Posted by DeathpooltheT1000 (9584 posts) - - Show Bio

The main problem is that the Movie needs to go into a bigger audience.

The Mirage comic book was never that popular, so is hard to belive they follow that idea.

Also the main problem is the Director and the Producer, who arent Nolan and their films look to have huge problems.

Bay will make money, he always makes money, but that doesnt mean this movie is going to be good.

Also i dont see any reason to reboot the franchise or retold the origin.

#35 Edited by k4tzm4n (36465 posts) - - Show Bio

@BiteMe-Fanboy: ........lol.

@DeathpooltheT1000: The comic wasn't popular at the time, but that's been rendered a moot point seeing as the franchise is a huge. They're going to re-release the classic Mirage comics in more affordable trades, too. Plus, everything TMNT so far has followed that idea but made their own changes (tv/movies/new comics). The movies simplified it by simply taking out the alien aspect of TCRI (and then unfortunately took a huge focus on appealing to a very young audience (with goofiness). And, Splinter learned martial arts when he was a rat in the cage... just sayin ;)

I understand your concern surrounding the director/producer, and that's perfectly valid. But, enough to say "THIS MOVIE WILL SUCK" (not saying you have, I'm generalizing) without even seeing any footage yet or facts surrounding the main plot (it has only been speculation on vague statements)? I find that to be off. It's just more rational to give them a chance and see what they've produced (with trailers/clips) before shunning the project off. Plenty of talent/directors I'm not fond of have surprised me with movies I enjoy.

And yes, there's a huge need to reboot the franchise. They're trying to bring it back into the spotlight, and as a fan, I'm more than welcome to the effort. I'm loving the IDW comic, curious about the film, excited for the cartoon, and hopeful for a good video game. Having a movie too boost it further is only logical. If it doesn't look good when more info/footage finally hits, then protest by getting people to not seeing it.

What baffles me is where this fanbase was back in 2007 when TMNT hit theaters. I saw it twice (dragged a different group of friends both times), yet it only took in around 50+k at the box office, IIRC.

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#36 Posted by DeathpooltheT1000 (9584 posts) - - Show Bio

@k4tzm4n: The first movie was dark, people see the franchise as a child one becuase of part 2 and 3, the first one was darker and more mature.

The fact that the past movie, well didnt made millions and millions, is because the TMNT arent that popular, they have a small fan base and most of his fanbase is based on the 80s cartoon.

Saddly the new shows never got that popular, the new games well sucked and lets face it, most of people saw the TMNT as a dead franchise, the movie failed, because, well it was good, but it wasnt anything special and it didnt fell you had any need to watch it.

#37 Posted by k4tzm4n (36465 posts) - - Show Bio

@DeathpooltheT1000: I'm aware of that, that's why I said "and then unfortunately took a huge focus on appealing to a very young audience" Come on, dude, ya think I'm talking about the reboot and haven't watched the original trilogy countless times? ;) I actually watched the conclusion of Secret of the Ooze last night for a good laugh. But yeah, the first is an excellent movie.

If talk about the reboot became popular enough to get coverage on talk shows and such, TMNT are a little more popular than you might think. Sure, it's not one of the biggest franchises around, but so many generations fell in love with it and it's got a huge nostalgia factor. You're absolutely right most fans stem from the classic cartoon, but so many different age groups loved it. I was born in 85 and it was one of my favorites, meanwhile plenty of people in their teens and even young 20s loved it then as well.

That's why it was so disappointing that the figures for TMNT werent better. Honestly, I think it being an all CG movie could be to blame. I'm sure quite a few shrugged it off as a movie geared towards kids instead of a true return of the franchise. I just hope this time around will be different. Are you reading the IDW comic?

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#38 Posted by DeathpooltheT1000 (9584 posts) - - Show Bio

@k4tzm4n: We live in a world where Nolan is popular, i still have my vision of a TMNT movie, having the cartoon characters (After all those are the most popular characters) and mix the logic from the first movie and the Nolan movies, heck i would make them look like in that live action tv show, because so far, that the best look they ever had, the toy from that show are pretty awesome looking ones.

I understand we live in a new world, that means a new vision, what i dont understand is why the heck we need Bay?

#39 Edited by k4tzm4n (36465 posts) - - Show Bio

Honestly, I'd much rather see Nolan move on to unique / standalone projects like he usually does (Memento, The Prestige, Inception, etc)

Not sure if you saw the director's interview, but he heavily implied the turtles will be cg in a live action world (he said he loved how it was done in Rise of the Planet of the Apes, and I agree)

Again, Bay is producing. The people who wrote Transformers aren't writing and the man who directed Transformers isn't directing. If the movie does end up sucking, he's hardly the sole person that deserves the majority of the blame.

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#40 Posted by Final Arrow (24359 posts) - - Show Bio

@k4tzm4n: I refuse to be reasonable... It's part of my charm.

#41 Posted by Final Arrow (24359 posts) - - Show Bio

@k4tzm4n:

#42 Posted by joshmightbe (24692 posts) - - Show Bio

Nolan is a great director don't get me wrong, but he is not the right guy for the Turtles, for a truly great Ninja Turtles movie we need someone who can balance the dark, gritty nature of the original comics with the goofy vibe that got most of us to get hooked in the first place but not go too far into either direction. Lets face it grim and gritty Ninja Turtles is not going to make money, but Goofy turtles won't make a good movie. Somewhere in between the 2 extremes we have potential for greatness and profit

#43 Posted by k4tzm4n (36465 posts) - - Show Bio

@Final Arrow: lol.

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#44 Posted by texasdeathmatch (13171 posts) - - Show Bio

Raph solos.

#45 Posted by umbrafeline (5300 posts) - - Show Bio

my mutant powers can determine if a movie is going to be good or not based on the trailers, but i just dont like bay being apart of a phenomenom [sp] that i love so much when i was a little jamz

#46 Posted by texasdeathmatch (13171 posts) - - Show Bio

haha comic books fans always seem to go to Nolan. You guys do realize there are other directors out there...

#47 Posted by k4tzm4n (36465 posts) - - Show Bio

@texasdeathmatch: Wait, he isn't the only good director out there?

SCANS OR YOU'RE LYING!

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#48 Edited by texasdeathmatch (13171 posts) - - Show Bio

@k4tzm4n: DUDE NOLAN IS THE BEST. INCEPTION CHANGED MY LIFE.

#49 Posted by texasdeathmatch (13171 posts) - - Show Bio

Also, has anyone called out katz for the thread title? No, okay good.

Who's Nina Turtle?

#50 Posted by k4tzm4n (36465 posts) - - Show Bio

@texasdeathmatch: How do you know it was really your life.... and not a dream?

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