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#1 Posted by joshmightbe (24876 posts) - - Show Bio

I know people will disagree with me here but I have reasons. Pre-Flashpoint Dick Grayson had grown from pretty much a laughing stock character into one of the best characters in DC comics, the reboot took a lot of the reason for that away. The biggest issue I have is the dismissal of his past with Deathstroke, that is a huge deal to me because in my opinion his relationship with Deathstroke had more to do with him stepping up as more than just a sidekick than even his relationship to Batman. Basically DC took away the thing that made him define himself as more than just another member of the Bat family, also taking away his past with the Teen Titans was just idiotic. Basically what seems to have happened is DC sacrificed most of what made Grayson truly great at the alter of the Bat and turned him back into a glorified sidekick.

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#2 Posted by Wolverine08 (41125 posts) - - Show Bio

The Question disagrees.

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#3 Posted by joshmightbe (24876 posts) - - Show Bio

@wolverine08: Shh, I'm refusing to believe what they did to the Question is actually a thing that happened.

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#4 Posted by The Stegman (23969 posts) - - Show Bio

Well, apparently Dick was in a team with Starfire and other young heroes...they just didn't call themselves the Teen Titans. Who knows, maybe they were the Outsiders.

#5 Posted by Wolverine08 (41125 posts) - - Show Bio

@joshmightbe:

I think DC was high when they decided that what they were going to do with The Question was a good idea.

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#6 Posted by joshmightbe (24876 posts) - - Show Bio

@the_stegman: Still there was a lot of development DC seemed to drop in order to wedge Nightwing back in Batman's shadow which sucks because Batman himself considered Dick an equal pre flash point.

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#7 Edited by The Stegman (23969 posts) - - Show Bio

@the_stegman: Still there was a lot of development DC seemed to drop in order to wedge Nightwing back in Batman's shadow which sucks because Batman himself considered Dick an equal pre flash point.

There's a lot of development dropped off period in the New 52.

#8 Edited by joshmightbe (24876 posts) - - Show Bio

@the_stegman: Hal Jordan and Sinestro are the only ones that actually got to stay who they were.

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#9 Posted by The Stegman (23969 posts) - - Show Bio

@joshmightbe: And Batman, for the most part, his history is unchanged. Y'know..except for Zero Year.

#10 Posted by Jonny_Anonymous (33050 posts) - - Show Bio

What makes a character great is the storys that are told with it, not what history it has.

#11 Posted by joshmightbe (24876 posts) - - Show Bio
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#12 Posted by theTimeStreamer (2841 posts) - - Show Bio

i'm still pissed he's not batman anymore.

#13 Edited by Jonny_Anonymous (33050 posts) - - Show Bio

@joshmightbe: and the storys can still be read, I was talking currently.

#14 Edited by joshmightbe (24876 posts) - - Show Bio

@thetimestreamer: I was never a fan of him as Batman, to me it was actually more of a regression.

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#15 Posted by theTimeStreamer (2841 posts) - - Show Bio

@joshmightbe: why? wally stepped up to the plate when barry died.

#16 Posted by MatteoPG (1927 posts) - - Show Bio

@jonny_anonymous: The stories are his history.

Exactly... I mean, what makes a character great are the stories told with him, that's true, but the stories you can tell with a character depend on his history because that is what defines who he or she is. Otherwise what you're saying is that you can tell the same great story with any character regardless of their past.

I actually don't mind the new 52 Nightwing, even if they did take away some parts of his past that gave him credibility, but I like to believe that he has now the right characterization to build it back again and then some.

#17 Edited by joshmightbe (24876 posts) - - Show Bio

@thetimestreamer: Its not that he stepped up that bothered me its just that as Nightwing Dick spent years showing people he was more than just Batman Jr, he established Nightwing as its own mantle. Putting on the bat suit just felt to me like a kid trying to wear his dad's shoes.

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#18 Edited by Guardiandevil83 (5521 posts) - - Show Bio

@joshmightbe: I am with you on everything but I do know the importance of Batman and his role in Gotham and why Dick took up the Cowl. There has to be a Batman in Gotham. Point Blank.

Now do not get it twisted, Dick could handle things just as well as Nightwing; but the criminal element does not care about him, they dont FEAR him, and as much of an advantage as that may be it is also a very bad thing also.

Do you know what would happen if word got out that "The Bat" was no longer in Gotham? It would be No Mans Land all over again. You think people are gonna stay away from Gotham because of Nightwing, Huntress, and Black Canary? Yeah right! Every Crack Dealer, Heroin Dealer, Serial Killer and Rapist in the country would desend on Gotham like Vultures on a corpse. Batman is a one-man electrified fence and if he dissapears, out comes the T-Rexes and Raptors. As much as Clark represents Hope and Bravery, Bruce represents fear to those who would do wrong. Dick was the only one who could do it. The only one with the build, the insight on how Bruce operates, the only other person who could truely BE the Batman. You call it a regression, I call it a birthrite.

If not Dick Grayson, then who? You? Me? Commissionor Gordon? Alfred? Who I ask you?I

#19 Posted by Lvenger (19320 posts) - - Show Bio

@joshmightbe: I can see where you're coming from but Higgins has been making Nightwing one of the better books of the New 52 bar the obligatory tie in with Court of Owls and DOTF. He's done good things with Dick which speak of an actual care for the character and doing something good with him. Having said that, when you reminded me of the New 52 erasing Wolfman's genius New Teen Titans run that is to date one of my favourite comic book runs ever and got me into Dick Grayson along with Morrison's Batman and Robin run, that reminded me of what Dick has lost.

Still, only his history has been affected, not his character so far. But Forever Evil may change that :/

#20 Posted by joshmightbe (24876 posts) - - Show Bio

@lvenger: I also feel that taking his beef with Deathstroke away is bad for Slade as well. To me its like if Lex and Superman stopped being arch rivals and just went at other people. Yea they'd still be great characters but something is just missing.

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#21 Posted by Lvenger (19320 posts) - - Show Bio

@joshmightbe: Ah now that makes sense. It is a real shame this has been lost in the New 52 along with other goldmines of continuity and character development.

#22 Posted by ArturoCalaKayVee (11376 posts) - - Show Bio

Love the passion. I completely agree with what you're saying.

#23 Posted by Dernman (14961 posts) - - Show Bio

I'm fine with it. They rolled things back a bit as they should with a reboot. He hasn't suffered IMO. He's just as interesting and I argue more interesting than he was pre52. Post New 52 Nightwing doesn't seem like Batman jr to me. As a matter of fact he seems like more of his own hero albeit younger. Granted I hate the color change of the costume but I'm enjoying the book.

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#24 Posted by joshmightbe (24876 posts) - - Show Bio

@dernman: I don't hate the new 52, there are just parts of it that just feel off.

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#25 Posted by JayAaerow (452 posts) - - Show Bio

LOL. I made a fourm about this.

#26 Posted by Yokergeist (12355 posts) - - Show Bio

Raven suffered from the New 52 a LOT more than Nightwing did.

#27 Posted by theinfinite (6 posts) - - Show Bio

i'm on issue three right now and i'd say you're right for the most part, but it's still good and keeps me reading it (for now at least). i might pick up teen titans as well, but having seen the show i'm afraid it might be too corny lol.

#28 Posted by RustyRoy (12012 posts) - - Show Bio

Tim lost more than Dick IMO.

@jonny_anonymous: The stories are his history.

Those stories are still part of his history just not in the New 52, its not like they're gonna show his past in flashbacks in every issue or its important to tell the present stories, if DC didn't say that his history hasn't been changed would it effect his present stories? I don't think so, its the same with history changed, the stories are still there, even Batman's stories are very much changed and its actually shown in the books.

#29 Posted by Avenging-X-Bolt (12973 posts) - - Show Bio

Well, apparently Dick was in a team with Starfire and other young heroes...they just didn't call themselves the Teen Titans. Who knows, maybe they were the Outsiders.

The outsider are a group of assassins or some shit in the new 52.

The Question disagrees.

pretty much every Ditko character owned by DC does. Captain Atom and Shade have vanished, Ted Kord was wiped out of continuity, Creeper is a f%^king KAtana villain now......

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#30 Posted by Billy Batson (57957 posts) - - Show Bio

pretty much every Ditko character owned by DC does. Captain Atom and Shade have vanished, Ted Kord was wiped out of continuity, Creeper is a f%^king KAtana villain now......

Well to be fair Shade is Milligan's character now. He's the only one who uses him.

BB

#31 Posted by SupBatz (1729 posts) - - Show Bio

Pretty much agreed. It's a close contest for who has suffered the worst, but Dick definitely took a beating from the reboot.

#32 Edited by Avenging-X-Bolt (12973 posts) - - Show Bio

@joshmightbe: why? wally stepped up to the plate when barry died.

hardly the same thing. Wally hadnt established himself as his own hero beforehand (he was just Kid Flash), Dick had.

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#33 Edited by Avenging-X-Bolt (12973 posts) - - Show Bio

@avenging_x_bolt said:

pretty much every Ditko character owned by DC does. Captain Atom and Shade have vanished, Ted Kord was wiped out of continuity, Creeper is a f%^king KAtana villain now......

Well to be fair Shade is Milligan's character now. He's the only one who uses him.

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true enough, i suppose.

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#34 Edited by Billy Batson (57957 posts) - - Show Bio

After his tenure on Suicide Squad, Milligan revamped the character, gave him a supporting cast and has written all of his appearances since then except the ones in I, Vampire but that was a crossover that was written together with Fialkov.

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#35 Posted by Bierschneeman (3942 posts) - - Show Bio

i disagree, I think The Question got the raw deal for one. for two I think Nightwing was one of the few actually rebooted, that benefited from his reboot.. he got to keep most of his storyline, but lost some of the lamer points. Teen Titans wasn't bad, But there are some REEEALLY bad storyarcs spanning much of their history. (whats with every member of the TT having sex with their evil nemesis's,[and my god it got creepy when 14 year old Terra was in a relationship with Deathstroke; That alone makes Deathstroke AND Nightwing benefit from the reboot]) and they never made it clear yet if Deathstroke and Nightwing have a history or not, I think there is still room to slide that in.

Edit, I went through all the issues and counted,.. there are more issues with bad stories or continuing bad stories than good ones.

#36 Posted by Avenging-X-Bolt (12973 posts) - - Show Bio

After his tenure on Suicide Squad, Milligan revamped the character, gave him a supporting cast and has written all of his appearances since then except the ones in I, Vampire but that was a crossover that was written together with Fialkov.

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i already agreed with you lol, i didnt need to know all that.

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#37 Edited by Z3RO180 (6458 posts) - - Show Bio

I agree to a degree

#38 Edited by joshmightbe (24876 posts) - - Show Bio

@the_stegman said:

Well, apparently Dick was in a team with Starfire and other young heroes...they just didn't call themselves the Teen Titans. Who knows, maybe they were the Outsiders.

The outsider are a group of assassins or some shit in the new 52.

@wolverine08 said:

The Question disagrees.

pretty much every Ditko character owned by DC does. Captain Atom and Shade have vanished, Ted Kord was wiped out of continuity, Creeper is a f%^king KAtana villain now......

I still refuse to believe that new guy actually is the Question since aside from the look isn't even similar to the real Question.

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#39 Posted by danhimself (22493 posts) - - Show Bio

Tim lost way more than Dick...he!! Tim isn't even his real name anymore

#40 Posted by TDK_1997 (14698 posts) - - Show Bio

Dick lost a lot but what about Tim.He's not even himself anymore.Lobdell just f**ked him up pretty good.

#41 Posted by Vitalius (1803 posts) - - Show Bio
#42 Posted by flazam (2491 posts) - - Show Bio

The Question is awful in the New 52

#43 Posted by kasino (1785 posts) - - Show Bio

I like what their doing with the Question. It shows their end game.

his history changed but Nightwing is still the same character. feel Wally got it worst, Tim, and maybe Bronze Tiger(won't be able to have a love story like Cyborg)

#44 Posted by CheeseSticks (2448 posts) - - Show Bio

Nightwing is going to be the star in Forever Evil, so i don't see how he suffered the most. What about Wally West? Tim Drake?

#45 Posted by batpala (339 posts) - - Show Bio

At least he still exists unless 3/5th's of the original Teen Titans team.

#46 Edited by cameron83 (7199 posts) - - Show Bio

@matteopg said:

@joshmightbe said:

@jonny_anonymous: The stories are his history.

Exactly... I mean, what makes a character great are the stories told with him, that's true, but the stories you can tell with a character depend on his history because that is what defines who he or she is. Otherwise what you're saying is that you can tell the same great story with any character regardless of their past.

I actually don't mind the new 52 Nightwing, even if they did take away some parts of his past that gave him credibility, but I like to believe that he has now the right characterization to build it back again and then some.

I agree. To me,the history is a crucial part of the character,along with the stories. But mainly the history.

@flazam said:

The Question is awful in the New 52

truth

@danhimself said:

Tim lost way more than Dick...he!! Tim isn't even his real name anymore

It's John Blake

@the_stegman said:

Well, apparently Dick was in a team with Starfire and other young heroes...they just didn't call themselves the Teen Titans. Who knows, maybe they were the Outsiders.

That's what confuses me,because while that DOES make me a bit happy,it's also said that that's not canon and that it's an error. I also don't see how it really fits in with the new 52 timeline. And btw,why the heck is scott lobdell still employed??

The new 52 itself is a huge mess and gives me a headache. These aren't really "new takes on old characters",it's just DC doing whatever the hell they want. The old characters (no,the old universe itself) died in 2011.

#47 Edited by Outside_85 (8710 posts) - - Show Bio

I would say all the legacy characters and those heavily associated with them took a heavy hit from the New 52. I agree that Nightwing has taken one of the heaviest, but on the bright side, he still gets to have his own book and most of the foundations, they just removed the interesting bit built on it. Unlike say Tim Drake who's only gotten to keep his first name and one of the hero names he's gone under.

@cheesesticks: By star, you mean he is going to be running head first into Superwoman and most likely end up dead?

#48 Edited by CheeseSticks (2448 posts) - - Show Bio

@outside_85: No, in a preview it's saying that Owlman will try to recruit Nightwing. See JL #25

#49 Posted by Joygirl (19429 posts) - - Show Bio

Bleez thinks otherwise.

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#50 Posted by Jake Fury (18396 posts) - - Show Bio

Isn't Nightwing in Chicago now? How do loyal Nightwingers feel about that?