New Black Canary series - characters jobbing coming

http://www.newsarama.com/23746-batgirl-targeted-by-the-all-new-batman-and-black-canary-joins-a-band.html

During the interview on the link above, the creative team, flat-out stated that they see Black Canary as being the best martial artist on the planet...i just hope that no stablished character appears in that book.

@bat_girl_cc: Well they aren't far wrong

Yeah, they really are...she's very good, but she isn't even in the top 30, let alone being the number 1, lol.

But that's counting the Pre-New-52 in, New 52 only, i'm not sure where to place her, but number 1 its just laughable.

I don't care. The comic isn't the battle forum, if they want to make her kick butt, I say go for it.

@bat_girl_cc: ha... no

She isnt even close to the Batman level.

you think she isn't top 30?

She can kick butt, without having stablished characters jobbing to her.

We'll se how they handle it, but Pre-New-52 alone i can easly name 15 people just on top of my head that would stomp her in a fight.

New 52, i guess that they can put on her in the top 10, but idk, we'll see.

@bat_girl_cc: Ok go ahead

@mrnoital said:

you think she isn't top 30?

Nope, unless you discount the people that above her.

The thing is, there's alot of people in the Pre-New-52 continuity that can claim their place in the top 10, and most of them, are more impressive than Black Canary IMO.

To be honest it was about time someone gave BC feats. She was called being great pre-52 but I never saw her do anything. And no she isn't the best.

Nightwing lately has been improved a lot. Stalemated Batman in an all out fight. When toe-to-toe for a brief time with Midnighter. And even beat with help, an android (although featless) with a variation of the powers of the Justice League. He read motions, even before he entered martial arts.

Black Canary doesn't have those kinds of feats. Or at least not in the New 52.

1) Karate Kid 2) Sa'ar 3) Sensei 4) Cassandra Cain 5) Lady Shiva 6) Richard Dragon 7) Bronze Tiger 8) Batman 9) Connor Hawke 10) Vic Sage 11) Silver Monkey 12) Constantine Drakon 13) Cricket 14) White Canary 15) Mad Dog 16) David Cain 17) Onyx...

17...and i'm still forggeting a bunch of names.

Sage and Onyx really aren't better than her,Cain himself is a near feat less wonder but I guess he gets a pass on rep alone,Drakon speed is too much for any humanly skilled person,White Canary is another Simone love child. But I agree with the others being better,I'd also add Wrath and Bane to the list of people better than her,Kobra too. Even Pre-52 Canary would be hard pressed to make it to the top 15.

I agree that Vic Sage and David Cain are more about hype than feats (although David Cain stallemated Batman once) but Onyx gave trouble to Cass twice, and in both fights, i don't see Dinah doing that good against Cass.

Yeah, Drakon is meta-human in speed, but he's also very skilled, i'm always divided if i should put him on a ranking or left him out due to his massive speed advantage.

And i know that Gail Simone often screws with the characters powerlevels, but White Canary stomped both Black Canary and Huntress at the same time, on Dinah's own book (BOP) that alone should put at her above Dinah.

Yeah, i forgot a ton of characters, those are better, and also probably I-Ching, King Snake, and maybe more.

@bat_girl_cc: and Azreal (both of them) and Terry Wayne. Everyone knows Bane >>>>> Black Canary in H2H. And Batman one million. Ras al Guhl is probably better. The Emonence of Blades is human IIRC and Midnighters powers don't effect his H2H so he should count. Sir entropy added 3 and you added 3 so that's well above 30 people that can beat Black Canary in h2h. :)

What has Black Canary actually done that puts her near, say, Batman's level? Maybe I've missed something...

@thedandyman: She beat Cheshire *slow clap*

Who cares? Is this all you get out of characters? Who's the fastest, strongest, smartest, etc? You all sound like jagaloons comparing your d***s vicariously through fictional characters, especially considering how fickle and inconsistent the comic book medium is.

@bat_girl_cc:

She was before one of the best martial arts fighters even if it is 10 or 20, why not? Why you dont want stablished character to appear on this comic?

Fixed, and to be fair, you're crossing a lot of streams here, and you could argue Midnighter's powers have everything to do with his H2H.

Anyway, I hope she does beat some established characters. New universe. New rules likely apply. New rule could say that Black Canary would school, Bruce Wayne, Richard Dragon II, Cassandra Cain, Dick Grayson, Midnighter, Slade Wilson, and Lady Shiva. You don't have to like the reality of a situation, but accept that it is the reality of the situation.

You also don't have to read Black Canary if she does things you don't think she should be able to.

I mean, people wanna throw out names like Karate Kid and Batman One Million, as if they're currently relevant to the timeline/universe Black Canary takes place. Maybe by the time those periods roll around and she's gone, those guys may be the best. As of now, that's not the case, and it's not like she won't take a loss every now and then, I'm sure. It happens to everyone. Hell, Batman has been taken down by people with far less skill than him. You want the series to prove that she's the best? Get ready to see some characters take a loss. Everybody has to take a fall sometime, right?

@username12345: You know any series which showcase her skills well? I might have a read.

@thedandyman: Honestly all of her feats can be easily duplicated, Brids of Prey is your best bet though.

@scouterv: I thought Terry was made with DNA from Bruce (JL Unlimited) and Midnighters powers is the ability to sense what special abilities his enemies have, not necessarily H2H involved powers.

Anyway I think our point stands that she isn't even in the top 10 best h2h fighters.

She could never ever beat Batman.

Yes, but his last name is McGinnis. He never took Wayne's name.

And I was more referring to the battle computer in his head which predicts everything.

And why isn't she in the top 10? A lot of names were of charcters who aren't active now and don't exist yet, and whose to say that BC simply isn't more skilled than most people know? Why can't she beat Batman? He's been beaten by people before.

@scouterv:

Fair enough

Fair enough

True, Batman has lost battles before, but he has always been able to come back from his defeats and beats his opponents. The only ones who I remember beating Batman FAIRLY are Bane and Slade and Batmans record against Slade is 1-9 Batman, and against Bane it's about 50/50. He's been evenly matched more times than that though. To answer your question though; Batman defeated a mind controlled Black Canary before, so I doubt she could beat him.

@username12345: Right, but a mind controlled fighter is not a fighter in their right mind, so while he may beat a mind controlled BC that doesn't mean he can beat her in her right mind.

Also, I'm not saying that she can beat anybody 100% of the time, or even that Batman couldn't come back And win round 2, but the same could be said about anyone, so it shouldn't be that huge a stretch to say Canary can take Batman and win. Even a majority.

@scouterv:

Maybe, maybe not. Who's to say she was physically or martially handicapped? She tried to use her cry at the start so she seemed to be at 100% in terms of combat.

Canary might be able to win one or two rounds but she would never ever get the majority if it was just h2h. Even IF she knows more martial arts better than Bruce, he is still to strong, fast, and durable for her. Her best feats in H2H are easily duplicated by Batman. I know you aren't the fondest of Bruce Wayne Batman but even you must admit he is one of the toughest street level characters across all comic universes besides Bane.

Anyway I think our point stands that she isn't the best H2H fighter.

Black Canary going to one-shot Bruce, Lady Shiva, Bronze Tiger, Deathstroke, and Bane.

Well that pretty much proves it. Canary almost never goes for her Cry from the start. If she wasn't even fighting in her usual way, then it's tough to say whether or not Batman would have won.

Nobody is saying that Bruce isn't tough, but I think you're downplaying BCs skill here. Whose to say she hasn't gotten faster, stronger, and more durable than she was before? Maybe even moreso than Bruce? Is it outside the realm of possibility that she gets new feats that Batman can't duplicate, or that she become capable of duplicating his best feats?

And your point stands, depending on you point of view.

For example, if you want to include the likes of characters that almost never appear or haven't appeared or been part of the post-Flashpoint universe, then you're right. I'd say Karate Kid could take the title if we're talking pure skill alone.

If you want to talk pure skill in the current/main timeline of the DC Universe, well, it appears as though she may have a dog in this race. You would have to wait for the comic to drop to choose for yourself.

Personally, I think Deathstroke might be the best, but then Green Arrow did beat Richard Dragon II. Lady Shiva is a name, and then there's the likes of the Batbrats, Todd and Grayson who have pulled off some impressive wins. Even against the likes of Bruce.

We'll just have to wait and see what BC does.

Is there any reason Black Canary couldn't have just been training really hard? A lot of people in this thread seem to look at skill the same way you'd look at super strength or super speed, a set power that you possess. It's not a power though, it's a skill, and skills can easily be practiced and improved upon.

@metaljimmor:

I agree. It´snt like Black Canary was worst fighter on comic history, plus Nobody complain when Jason Todd defeated Lady Shiva and Talia Al Ghul without much effort on Red Hood and the Outlaws.

First, who cares? Black Canary joining a band called Black Canary sounds like a horrible idea to me, even if she is DC's best fighter by a mile and a half. Battle forums don't really matter, a good book with a good premise and story does.

Second, if you do care about such things, you can easily argue Canary (Pre-52) being in the top 10, at least 15, of DC martial fighters.

Which still doesn't matter because the art and premise for the new book don't appeal to me at all, and I'm fan a Black Canary.

@scouterv:

I don't have my computer so I can't put the pictures up but I will ASAP so you can decide.

In a hypothetical battle we have to go on feats that are established not feats that could happen. You know?

Actually Batman One million is more skilled than Karate Kid.

Fair enough.

In terms of the new 52 only Batman beat Deathstroke once already when Deathstroke was on venom and got the better of him just recently until there fight was broken up by Harley Quinn.

Fair enough.

BC is at least top 20, pre-52 I mean. I don't really remember seeing much of BC in the New 52 at all though to be honest, I think I remember her briefly showing up in Justice League a couple of times...

If they want to make her top five in the new canon then what's the big deal?

That's because nobody reads Red Hood and the Outlaws. Lol

Sa'ar is superhuman, it took Martian Manhunter to beat him. Cricket is a speedster. I'm reasonably sure Canary fought and stalemated Bronze Tiger a long time ago, and it's not like Tiger's showings have improved since then.

I wouldn't put Bronze Tiger so high. He hasn't that much to be put in front of Batman or even Connor. He has good feats, don't get me wrong, but both Batman and Connor have done way more things that prove that they are better than him.

Also White Canary is impressive but she doesn't have enough showings against people from the bigger leagues for us to say that she is so high on this lise , and even in front of Cain.

@username12345: I'm not actually trying to debate a battle, but merely offer a differing viewpoint that isn't as unlikely as I think you think.

Eh, perhaps. I've never seen the two fight, and didn't read One Million.

Fair enough.

She did in suicide squad 13. All though to be fair it was one of those "the fight never finished" stalemates IIRC but they did seem pretty even.

@bat_girl_cc: They could have meant it sarcastically.

Really, though, I have no problem with writers taking a little creative freedom with lesser-known characters if the writing is good. Especially in the case of the New 52 where her skill level hasn't really been established for the new cannon. And again, character's skill levels change. Matt Fraction took a lot of liberties with Hawkeye's skill level and it really didn't matter - the writing was great and the narrative was unique because he was allowed the freedom to really tell his own story. And that seems to be what DC's headed for post-convergence.

*Also, I'd say it's pretty likely that they will use original or lesser-known characters as the antagonist.

She is definitely in Top 10.

Canary isn't anywhere near number 1 in the New 52. Her only martial arts training comes from going to a dojo when she was a kid.

Annnh doesn't really matter.

Agreed, regarding Azrael, bane and Ra's...but Terry is not that good in h2h, Batman 1 Million its nearly-featless, and Midnighter its a mid-tier with pre-cog...but yeah, Dinah its very good, but she's not even in the top 30.

She was never that good, that was Gail Simone messing up with the characters powerlevels once or twice....even Cheshire is very good, and she's not that good, there's alot of characters that can claim thei're right to be in the top 10, and most of them have better feats than Canary.

I don't like it, because jobbing characters sucks, if a character doesn't have what it takes to win, then he shouldn't! period...and new 52 Canary has had trouble with Batgirl (Babs) and Strix...you don't seriously expect me to consider her a top-10 martial-artist, do you?

That book was so good, that it got cancelled due to low-sales.

And Jason one-shotting Shiva, its the reason why now everyone makes fun of him on the battle-threads...have you never heard of the "jason-oneshots" argument? lol.

Well, in my opinion, Sa'ar is super-human, like karate kid is superhuman...by feats, they are mid-tiers, but thei're basis are their skill, although Sa'ar was imortal (his body didn't aged), if i remember correctly.

Yeah, Cricket and Drakon are tricky due to their speed-advantage, although they both were described as being very skilled.

Yes, Canary did stallemated Bronze Tiger, but Bronze Tiger's h2h feats > Canary's h2h feats, in either continuity, but mostly pre and early post-crisis.

I don't think that they would joke about the character that they wil be writting.

I know that this its a new continuity in regards to the pre-52, but the concept its still the same, the basic's of each character remain pretty much the same, and in the New 52, Canary has already showed, that she's not a top-tier fighter...she's good in h2h like most street-levelers, she's better than the most, but not THAT good.

" Also, I'd say it's pretty likely that they will use original or lesser-known characters as the antagonist. "

I hope so.

@bat_girl_cc:

She could train with someone like Lady Shiva and feats are just what writers want to a characther wants to do it. Plus there are more important things like let´s hope no Batman or Green Arrow on this book, she could bissexual, Sin appering, more Batgirl or Huntress or Lady Blackhawk or Starling or Katana or Strix. P.S: If you dont like what they going to do BC, you wont like what they did with Jason Todd.

@bat_girl_cc: Batman one million one shoted Batman in fair combat and despite being a "normal" human, from the future, mastered alian martial arts that involve telekinesis.

@bat_girl_cc:

I think it was pretty clear that they where being at least a little sarcastic.In the Interview they said that "she was the best martial artist in the DC universe". Unless the writers state that in the comic - which would be pretty silly - there's no way they could prove it. Not to mention that several of the major martial artists in DC either don't exist or aren't as skilled in the new 52.

Besides, from what I know she's only appeared in the cancelled Birds of Prey and a couple issues of Batgirl. I get the argument for continuity but she hasn't really been in the limelight in the new 52 and this will give the creative team a chance to boost her skill level. And I don't see why they shouldn't have the freedom to do that. Besides, feats don't have that big of an impact on the quality of the book in the end.

If DC wants to make her top-tier now, fine, but it would have to be permenent! which i doubt it will...it would just be like it is on most books, they writte the main character as being a unstoppable force, which gets ignored everywhere else...in my opinion, the only thing that will come out of this, will be already stablished characters looking bad.

Batman 1 million "one-shotted" Batman (from behind) during a conversation that they were having, and while Bruce wasn't expecting it...the only thing, that that proves, is that he can K.O Bruce, it doesn't prove that he's more skilled than him.

Karate Kid has also mastered all things that there is to master on earth, the difference is, Val actually has the feats to back up his reputation...Batman 1 million, doesn't.

The problem with this, is that she will be really good for 20 or 30 issues (depending on how long it will take for this book to get cancelled (every book in the New 52, besides the main ones, get cancelled), and after that, she will be written as she was before, at least that's what always happens.