I have constructed this list to the best of my ability. I include some people you may feel do not belong here. Please tell what you think is wrong here and why.
that's not accurate, soul fire darkseid shouldn't be that low, Life force scarlet witch, beyonders and what if doom shouldn't be above PR beyonder and the amalgam brothers at all, the spectre is too low, CW herc is too high. i can think of more but the list is too big.
TOAA, the presence, PR beyonder, and the amalgam brothers should be the top dogs since they are the creators of their multiverse.
@rolldestroyer said: What feats does soulfire darkseid or source have? Life force wanda was said to have power dawrfing PR beyonder, the beyonders are the whole reason PR beyonder was more powerful than post retcon beyonder, and that was after thay made every cosmic cube in the multiverse, and what if doctor doom had PR beyonders power + the infinity gauntlet. The brothers have not done much but create multiverses, which is exactly what CW herc did(except he also recreated every abstract in the multiverse) and left LT and spectre helpless, which is basically what beyonder did. Why should CW herc be lower and where should he be? When has spectre ever performed a trans-abstract feat? Even at full power he did very little to AM.
@rolldestroyer said:What feats does soulfire darkseid or source have? Life force wanda was said to have power dawrfing PR beyonder, the beyonders are the whole reason PR beyonder was more powerful than post retcon beyonder, and that was after thay made every cosmic cube in the multiverse, and what if doctor doom had PR beyonders power + the infinity gauntlet. The brothers have not done much but create multiverses, which is exactly what CW herc did(except he also recreated every abstract in the multiverse) and left LT and spectre helpless, which is basically what beyonder did. Why should CW herc be lower and where should he be? When has spectre ever performed a trans-abstract feat? Even at full power he did very little to AM.
soul fire darkseid was fighting toe to toe with the source itself.
When was life force wanda dwarfed PR beyonder?
PR beyonder is completely unreleated to the beyonders, in secret wars he was God, literally.
what if doom was using post retcon beyonder's power + IG, otherwise why would he have such a hard time fighting the celestials?
and what about the brothers dwarfing the spectre and living tribunal himself who can stomp every abstract at the same time? he should be much lower than this
spectre is the wrath of God, when empowered by the presence (through the logoz) he can perform virtually any feats, in day of judgment he was stated to be able to destroy the heaven, hell and everything in between. however he has been beaten by numerous characters that's why im saying that spectre should be only high if he is at full power, if not he shouldn't be at the top.
what if doom and wanda are ranked too high here, both michael and lucifer should be able to stomp them both at the same time, these guys can create multiverses (though only together, but still each one is easily multiversal)
and eternity thanos is above lucifer and michael?
i think the god thing is powerful though him replacing god is hyperbole IMO, he shouldn't be above lucifer and michael.
also miracle machine should be included as an artifact.
soul fire darkseid was fighting toe to toe with the source itself.
But what feats does SOURCE have that makes this impressive?
When was life force wanda dwarfed PR beyonder?
This was by the account of doctor doom when he had the life force, and doctor doom had beyonders power so he would know.
PR beyonder is completely unreleated to the beyonders
No he is not. The beyonders were used to explain the cosmic cube retcon.
what if doom was using post retcon beyonder's power + IG, otherwise why would he have such a hard time fighting the celestials?
This was in what if secret wars, so it was PR beyonder. I don't think there is an explaination for the celestials dragging it out for 400 years, it could be that the power wasmaking him insane, or just WIS
and what about the brothers dwarfing the spectre and living tribunal himself who can stomp every abstract at the same time? he should be much lower than this
That feat but the brothers on the list. Why would they be higher?
spectre is the wrath of God, when empowered by the presence (through the logoz) he can perform virtually any feats, in day of judgment he was stated to be able to destroy the heaven, hell and everything in between. however he has been beaten by numerous characters that's why im saying that spectre should be only high if he is at full power, if not he shouldn't be at the top.
Ok but what FEATS but spectre much higher? It won't take much to convince by the way. I also feel he should be higher.
and eternity thanos is above lucifer and michael?
Not together no, but the IG is more powerful than some would believe. I don't think it takes much of an amp for it to edge out Lucifer.
i think the god thing is powerful though him replacing god is hyperbole IMO, he shouldn't be above lucifer and michael.
Maybe, but he gave the presence hell. Lucifer and michael can't do that.
also miracle machine should be included as an artifact.
I have to agree with that. also i have put DD with PR beyonders power on the list, so scrier and slorioth get knocked off.
But what feats does SOURCE have that makes this impressive?
the source is an aspect of the presence. and the source itself was called omnipotent while it was fighting darkseid, i know there are many hyperboles about some characters being called omnipotent but since it is an aspect of the presence i doubt it is.
This was by the account of doctor doom when he had the life force, and doctor doom had beyonders power so he would know.
No he is not. The beyonders were used to explain the cosmic cube retcon.
This was in what if secret wars, so it was PR beyonder. I don't think there is an explaination for the celestials dragging it out for 400 years, it could be that the power was making him insane, or just WIS
that's the thing, PR beyonder wouldn't have that kind of problem, you see the beyonder saw the multiverse as a droplet of water compared to him, now how possibly could someone wielding that kind of power have a problem with the celestials for 100s of years?
yes the beyonders were used to explain the retcon but how does it make them more powerful? the amalgam brothers dwarfed LT and yet LT was used to explain the retcon, but before the retcon the amalgam brothers were more powerful than him.
point is what if doom didn't display any feats that puts him anywhere near PR beyonder.
That feat but the brothers on the list. Why would they be higher?
i think they should be in the top 7 at least. LT and spectre said that they were forces they didn't even know despite that LT and spectre already know forces as powerful as TOAA and the presence, so the bros are on their level.
Ok but what FEATS but spectre much higher? It won't take much to convince by the way. I also feel he should be higher.
his battle with AM is impressive seeing how AM destroyed infinite universes don't you think? he also held apart two universes together.
Not together no, but the IG is more powerful than some would believe. I don't think it takes much of an amp for it to edge out Lucifer.
i know the IG is powerful but lucifer survived the release of demiurgic (which can destroy the whole multiverse instantly) energy at point blank and came out without a scratch, then he created his own multiverse with that energy. he can also go beyond the multiverse into the void.
Maybe, but he gave the presence hell. Lucifer and michael can't do that.
no he didn't give the presence hell, from where did you get that?
oh and btw you should add primal monitor, the multiverse is literally a dot compared to it.
also mxy and bat mite should be added as top dogs.
wait why is molecule man so high on the list? i mean he is powerful, but i dont think he is that powerful
He is pretty freakin powerful when he wants to be, whichever version you pick, post retcon or pre retcon.
One was stated to be more powerful than living tribunal, the other , in a pretty one sided fight against Beyonder where he totally overpowered Beyonder, caused a trans-multiversal destruction.
the source is an aspect of the presence. and the source itself was called omnipotent while it was fighting darkseid, i know there are many hyperboles about some characters being called omnipotent but since it is an aspect of the presence i doubt it is.
If we are talking about the Source that fought Darkseid, he himself said he was defeated by 3 skyfathers, who broke him into 2 halves and imprisioned each half behind the source wall.
So yeah i think on line with the version of source we are talking about him being omnipotent was likely a hyperbole, apart from killing New Gods he did not do anything.
Although yeah Starlin pretty much retconned everything we knew about Source before, and well Morrision pretty much totally retconned / ignore the whole Death of New God series, so pick whatever you like :)
yes the beyonders were used to explain the retcon but how does it make them more powerful? the amalgam brothers dwarfed LT and yet LT was used to explain the retcon, but before the retcon the amalgam brothers were more powerful than him.
Amalgam brother dwarfed LT?
Where exactly is this coming from?
I think i agree with most, but Spectre actually pushed back two earths as opposed to two universe, it was said that 2 worlds were about to collide and we see him push back 2 earth.
We also saw Hyperion recent do the same thing lol.
On BTW you asked why should one believe Life Entity was beyond Beyonder, that likely based on 2 things:
1. Doom's statement but yeah that could be in regards to retconned version.
2. Wanda's feat, without even using full extent of her power she ripped the omniverse to shread, Meggan had to tap into the power of Earth, otherworld (thats nexus to ALL realities in a multiverse) and power of Beyond, to halt the wave.
Thats as insane showing of power as it gets.
BTW there is actually an alternate reality Galactus , in order to beat him Living Tribunal himself had to combine his powers with :
1. Master Order.
2. Lord Chaos
3. The Gardner
4. Shaper of the World
5. Inbetweener
6. Stranger
And i still have no idea what the writer was smoking :p
If we are talking about the Source that fought Darkseid, he himself said he was defeated by 3 skyfathers, who broke him into 2 halves and imprisioned each half behind the source wall.
So yeah i think on line with the version of source we are talking about him being omnipotent was likely a hyperbole, apart from killing New Gods he did not do anything.
Although yeah Starlin pretty much retconned everything we knew about Source before, and well Morrision pretty much totally retconned / ignore the whole Death of New God series, so pick whatever you like :)
yes but the skyfathers merely separated it into 2 they didn't actually defeat it, and we dont really know the exact power levels of the skyfathers who were Zeus, Odin and someone other i dont recall.
Amalgam brother dwarfed LT?
Where exactly is this coming from?
that was after the retcon, i was talking about PR amalgam brothers. at the end of DC vs Marvel #4 the brothers started to destroy everything (by fighting each other) and LT and spectre weren't even disturbing them, in the end Access (a plot device character) transported batman and captain america to a some state of mind where they inspired the brothers to end the fighting (bullsh*t ending if you ask me)
I think i agree with most, but Spectre actually pushed back two earths as opposed to two universe, it was said that 2 worlds were about to collide and we see him push back 2 earth.
it depends on how you interpret it, alternate earths are sometimes referred to as alternate universes, but i suppose we can't be sure. but spectre fighting AM should be proof enough that he should be on the list.
On BTW you asked why should one believe Life Entity was beyond Beyonder, that likely based on 2 things:
1. Doom's statement but yeah that could be in regards to retconned version.
2. Wanda's feat, without even using full extent of her power she ripped the omniverse to shread, Meggan had to tap into the power of Earth, otherworld (thats nexus to ALL realities in a multiverse) and power of Beyond, to halt the wave.
thanks for the info :)
also where would you rank HOM wanda? i think she's the only one in the entire comics who actually destroyed the omniverse and recreated it.
BTW there is actually an alternate reality Galactus , in order to beat him Living Tribunal himself had to combine his powers with :
1. Master Order.
2. Lord Chaos
3. The Gardner
4. Shaper of the World
5. Inbetweener
6. Stranger
And i still have no idea what the writer was smoking :p
LOL yeah it was in "last planet standing" and that wasn't even the worst part in that comic, the worst part was reed richard's canon that blew everyone away.
yes but the skyfathers merely separated it into 2 they didn't actually defeat it, and we dont really know the exact power levels of the skyfathers who were Zeus, Odin and someone other i dont recall.
The whole idea that source himself said he thought their might was nothing compared to him, and because he though so he realises his power are not infallible, sort of points out he was no where close to omnipotent.
Pretty sure you have read the issue, here is scans for anyone who hasnt :)
Gallery
You can criticize Starlin for mocking up Source's history, i just love his way of story telling and his arms :)
Those scans are glorious to watch over and over again...
that was after the retcon, i was talking about PR amalgam brothers. at the end of DC vs Marvel #4 the brothers started to destroy everything (by fighting each other) and LT and spectre weren't even disturbing them, in the end Access (a plot device character) transported batman and captain america to a some state of mind where they inspired the brothers to end the fighting (bullsh*t ending if you ask me)
I dont recall an official retcon ever, even if you notice in the bio they are still considered megaversal guardian. A megaverse is collection of all realities related to one industry. So 1 brother represents totality of marvel the other DC.
Living Tribunal and Spectre before they even came close to Amalagam brother where holding together 2 different universes, from 2 different megaverses. Then when they try to stop the brother all we are told is that Living Tribunal and Spectre were in awe in their showing of their power. Thats about it.
At no point did LT or Spectre ever fight the brothers, so its hard to call it a retcon.
Besides LT actually weakens outside his domain, at or least used to before.
it depends on how you interpret it, alternate earths are sometimes referred to as alternate universes, but i suppose we can't be sure. but spectre fighting AM should be proof enough that he should be on the list.
Fair enough.
Although AM instance it was Spectre amped up with power of all magic, and he essentially got stomped so not really a huge showing of power there to be honest. Spectre being on the list where he is seems fair enough, although i would pull down Mandrakk and Cosmic Armor superman a little below the list, their feats are not up there, despite being stated to be a threat beyond multiversal scope.
I really fell thats a lot of talk and little action.
thanks for the info :)
also where would you rank HOM wanda? i think she's the only one in the entire comics who actually destroyed the omniverse and recreated it.
No problem.
Its pretty hard to put Wanda anyways, what would we look at pure potential, then pretty freakin high on the list. That being said the control she had on her power are dismal. He never even intended to destroy anything, yet she affected entire omniverse , all she wanted to do was give someone a perfect world.
So dont know its upto people.
Same with MJJ 616, he has very limited feat. We know his weaker counter part warp entire universe in his wrap and was going to destroy the entire omniverse if he alongside his reality were not destroyed. We know MJJ of 616 is more powerful and he cant be defeated by that means. We also know the only 2 weakness he has is Fury (which was created by an alternate reality Jasper himself) and being powerless in absence of a reality.
So based on this pretty freakin powerful, but feat wise you will find nothing. Sure he nearly took over the otherworld, which is a pocket dimension the size of United State Continent, but thats it. Even then he failed. Featwise he has dont nothing, i think given how powerful he is meant to be writers are hesistant to even use him so.
MJJ and Wanda are there or there abouts, 2 being with extremely awesome potential, but lacking feat (Wanda has little feat on beating someone in a pure showing of power, just destroying things she never intended to destroy).
I dont recall an official retcon ever, even if you notice in the bio they are still considered megaversal guardian. A megaverse is collection of all realities related to one industry. So 1 brother represents totality of marvel the other DC.
Living Tribunal and Spectre before they even came close to Amalagam brother where holding together 2 different universes, from 2 different megaverses. Then when they try to stop the brother all we are told is that Living Tribunal and Spectre were in awe in their showing of their power. Thats about it.
At no point did LT or Spectre ever fight the brothers, so its hard to call it a retcon.
Besides LT actually weakens outside his domain, at or least used to before.
well i dont either, but LT and the spectre said that the brothers are nothing like they ever encountered before and then suddenly LT fashioned them? the brothers were also stated as the creators of their respected multiverses when in fact it was TOAA (in marvel) and presence or primal monitor (in dc).
yes LT and spectre even merged the brothers together, and the brothers were really angry about it . but in the end they were fighting each other and spectre and LT couldn't do anything (they were holding the brother's swords and the brothers were literally ignoring them), i think because LT and spectre were so small you didn't notice them lol.
Although AM instance it was Spectre amped up with power of all magic, and he essentially got stomped so not really a huge showing of power there to be honest. Spectre being on the list where he is seems fair enough, although i would pull down Mandrakk and Cosmic Armor superman a little below the list, their feats are not up there, despite being stated to be a threat beyond multiversal scope.
I really fell thats a lot of talk and little action.
yes he was and in fact he was also amped by thunderbolt IIRC who is a fifth dimensional imp, and it was said he was more powerful than his master, not sure who they were referring to, yes he did lose but he was close to AM's power. this version of spectre should be high on the list IMO
yeah i agree that CA superman and Mandrakk have little feats. CA superman was hurt by the heat of several billion suns which implies that his durability isn't that good because that's a galaxy level durability.
@killemall I did actually see a scan of spectre and LT struggling with the brothers. They were trying to push against them and failing. Didn't they say they had never encountered such beings? LT has encountered beyonder. Also, if there was no retcon how did LT create the brothers? It makes no sense. The thing with source is wierd, and it seems like the skyfathers had the element of surprise. We don't know their power level, but if we determine source's, they will likely be on the list. Even if that galactus had PIS and WIS on his side, he still goes above LT, but not protege. Goodbye scrier. Also, i have to add the fused/amalgam brother so goodbye the other. Also, I count spectre and COIE spectre differently because the latter was amped, but they are not far apart because it is a pretty inconsequential amp. The only one of them with even remotly ratable power on this scale is thunderbolt, the rest of them were really gnats. I was uneasy about putting Mandrakk and CA that high anyways. I sometimes feel MJJ is overrated. Should he be moved?
@rolldestroyer: We know little to nothing about Beyonders to be honest, apart from that fact that energy from their universe flows to ours and is trapped in a container to create cosmic cube.
We also know that an omnidirectional blast from Thanos with IG, affected realities within Beyonders realm but none of them did anything against it, were they less powerful or did they just not care, we dont know.
Additional after tapping into the power of Earth and Otherworld (nexus of all realities into the multiverse) Meggan knew she did not have enough power to stop the chaos wave, in last ditch effort she tapped into the power from Beyond and manage to halt the chaos wave.
And lastly, the Beyonder's universe is so big that it dwindles all else into insignificance.
Any power level you put on Beyonders would be based on these and these alone, unless Beyonders realm has appeared after October 2012, which i find highly unlikely, i actually actived looked around to find as much information about Beyonders universe as i can find because i always enjoy marvel cosmology and cosmic cube.
@rolldestroyer: We know little to nothing about Beyonders to be honest, apart from that fact that energy from their universe flows to ours and is trapped in a container to create cosmic cube.
We also know that an omnidirectional blast from Thanos with IG, affected realities within Beyonders realm but none of them did anything against it, were they less powerful or did they just not care, we dont know.
Additional after tapping into the power of Earth and Otherworld (nexus of all realities into the multiverse) Meggan knew she did not have enough power to stop the chaos wave, in last ditch effort she tapped into the power from Beyond and manage to halt the chaos wave.
And lastly, the Beyonder's universe is so big that it dwindles all else into insignificance.
Any power level you put on Beyonders would be based on these and these alone, unless Beyonders realm has appeared after October 2012, which i find highly unlikely, i actually actived looked around to find as much information about Beyonders universe as i can find because i always enjoy marvel cosmology and cosmic cube.
alright thanks for the information, though can you be more specific on this statement: the Beyonder's universe is so big that it dwindles all else into insignificance.
and based on these feats would you put the beyonders so high? even more than HOTU? i wouldn't
alright thanks for the information, though can you be more specific on this statement: the Beyonder's universe is so big that it dwindles all else into insignificance.
and based on these feats would you put the beyonders so high? even more than HOTU? i wouldn't
Given the fact that "all else" in that instance was Eternity, not really.
Eternity was insignificant to both HOTU and IG, and both of them have better feats.
I thought they also gave extra power to PR beyonder and Molecule man. In beyonders words, "The pure force was a gift from the beyonders." The pure force being why they were a million times more powerful than the multiverse.
Last planet standing tribunal had the powers of stranger, shaper, inbetweener, chaos and order. Not as powerful as what protege copied though.
I thought they also gave extra power to PR beyonder and Molecule man. In beyonders words, "The pure force was a gift from the beyonders." The pure force being why they were a million times more powerful than the multiverse.
Last planet standing tribunal had the powers of stranger, shaper, inbetweener, chaos and order. Not as powerful as what protege copied though.
No they did not.
They explained it was the power of post retcon molecule man/ Beyonder.
The whole point was, the energy Molecule Man got was the energy from the universe of the Beyonder that was meant to make a cosmic cube, but while Molecule Man got some of the energy in his body, the rest of the energy itself got sentience and thought itself the sole being in the universe. They retcon all PR Beyonder feats as a trick.
So the page that you are referring to
Same issue after understanding their power both Molecule Man and Beyonder merged into a cosmic cube, fulfilling what they were desined to do
Gallery
The cube however spits out Molecule Man after his powers are absorbed, and it later grows into Kosmos.
And they retcon the hell out of Beyonders feat, because apparently they were all illusions.
I hope that helps, sorry for the scan spammange i got a little carried away.
Ok this is likely the final version of the list. I put Tiamut because while he didn't equal fulcrum, he did defeat the horde, who are equal to the celestials. Also, I read 1 scan which seemed to indicate that even marvel vs. DC, LT fashioned the brothers, not created them. However, the brothers are mentioned in his bio, and everything in a bio is canon, DC vs. Marvel is not. Therefore, there are different, canon brothers with different power levels. Also if reed richards big gun had a name please tell me.
Once I'm done this list will be my complete reference to the high points of cosmic hierarchy, though I might wait till I know the first lanterns power level to see if he makes the list.
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