My explanation of Mugetsu+comparing Dangai Ichigo+Superman

@jeepeh:

Gas Giant as in Jupiter Impressive but no where near star class

probably but all that is speculation which does not fly well here I wish Kubo had expanded that fight to show off Ichigos strength more we should see some Feats like that after the power up in theory he should be much stronger now but I doubt we will have the same quantifiable feats again

@cjdavis103: Yeah sorry, I thought you said Red Giant. (facepalm) I am ashamed. T_T

@wishiwassuperman: the concentrated gravity of the sun would crush the all the planets in the solar system that would mean he has solar system + durability he is no where near that level at most he can take a planets Concentrated gravity and even that is debatable

@jeepeh: NP

I know but I was trying to be nice...

@wishiwassuperman: So you don't think it's as strong as Jupiter?

Anything is possible. You seemed pretty set on the idea of it being equivalent to a sun so I thought I'd let that go. Jupiter is more probable.

@wishiwassuperman: Don't tell me I'm right just to make me happy though, =D This is a debate after all.

OK fine.

Do we have any indications for power-scaling Aizen himself? E.G. his attack was X strong before he he transformed, and was Y strong after? I need that as a starting point.

@wishiwassuperman: Hmm.... Well maybe we can find something on all the people that he defeated before his final form. For instance Yamamoto's bankai is as hot as the sun and Aizen transcended all shinigami. So is it safe to assume that he could tank it?

@jeepeh:

not quite Aizen admitted he was not sure if he would win against Yammamoto even after fusing and after transcending he was wounded by Gin who was nowhere near the most powerful captain so Tanking Yammamot is debatable. as for it being as strong as the Suns gravity would you give him planetary Durabilaty? Planatary x1000 durabailaty? if not then the sun should crush him normally condensed into a little box like that it would squish him into a paper thin corps

@jeepeh: I agree with you on the first one. Mugetsu is a target disinitegrating attack rather than all out obliteration of whatever is in range. Having said that, I need to disagree on the second one. The coffin attack Aizen pulled off might have had massive gravity to the point of reality breaking, however that is not equal to superman sustaining real Black Hole. Comparing the two is way off.

First off, the move is Hado/Kido based, in other words magic based. We have seen a lot of characters in Bleach prove offsets against such reality breaking moves.

= Ichigo breaking through Kurohitsugi
= Ichigo breaking the dimension made by the gamer kid (though to be hair he said the dimension cannot be dismantled from the outside or erased while people still in it)e
= Kenpachi breaking out of the white light extinction move (expanding and contracting time space)

In these 3 notable instances, the users relied on their incredible reitsu pressure to dismantle the said moves. Ichigo going Bankai was enough to trigger something like that. Kenpachi simply releasing his spiritual pressure by removing the eye patch usually outputs the same amount Ichigo releases in Bankai. In the case of both of them, they are Bleachs very own monsters. The only difference with Ichigo is that he has been trained, while up until recently, Kenpachi has not recieved any formal training and had always been holding back, and still owning if I may add.

Also, its already well known that Ichigo has superb strength. At the very beginning of the series, he blocked blows from a giant with ease, a giant with enough striking strength to cleave a city block with one swing. With a little bit of training, he blocked something with the power of a million zampakutous. Needless to say, this is how strong he really is. Despite being battle worn after going Vasto Lorde against Ulqoirra, Ichigo still managed to block a swing from Yammy in released state, one with notable strength. He managed to easily overpower Aizen using just his physical strength. These are feats that put Ichigos strength way above the class 100 in marvel, possibly within the 1000-1500 ton range. As you said, he is capable of obliterating mountains with his punches.

I would not say Ichigo is as strong as Superman in terms of strength, but its also true that Superman no matter how strong he is cannot harm Ichigo as long as he is emiting Spiritual Pressure. Not with punches anyway.

@lowlaville: I don't think I ever compared punches, I don't think Ichigo has ever punched....anything... O.o But in the OP I stated that I was not saying breaking out of Kurohitsugi was a good feat, I was talking about being able to stand in it with no negative effects. I doubt Ichigo is as strong as superman either.

Problem is that's hyperbole - a character talking themselves up is one thing - they need to back it up. We only saw him defeat Gin and Ichigo's dad - who while both very powerful wouldn't have been at Yamamoto's level, and certainly not able to withstand his bankai. He also believed Yamamoto to be dead thanks to Wonderweiss so was possibly puffing himself up. While I believe he had transcended the power of most Shinigami (since he was basically in a perfect unification of Shinigami and Hollow) I don't think he was necessarily strong enough to tank Yamamoto's bankai - but that's my opinion. From what we see of Aizen in all that - he pretty much spends most of his time talking himself up and over-estimating himself.

Didn't I just state how Ichigo and the likes manage it? Incredible reitsu pressure mate.

- Genryusai blows his reitsu with such incredible pressure it gives off the illusion of flames.
- Kenpachi outright owns with his spiritual pressure.
- Ichigo also has a coat of massive reitsu that at that point was incomprehensible, even to someone like Aizen at that point. A move like that can be sustained by Ichigo then, with little to no trouble at all.

Whatever effect Kurohitsugi must have had, I can tell you this much, Ichigo did not feel it.

@wishiwassuperman: Didn't he beat like all of the vizards? As well as that girl with the gloves and boots with dark skin? I can't recall her name. Weren't he and Ichigo both transcendent beings? IIRC doesn't Juha Bach take Yamamoto's bankai in the latest manga? They are going to take him down at some point. The bad guy always loses right? :P There has to be something here to base it off of.

@lowlaville: I feel like you think I'm arguing against Ichigo.... I would love nothing more than to be able to say Ichigo is on another level than superman, but it isn't true right? And are you referring to the cloak he was wearing when he saved rukia? I heard it had most of his power in it, but I couldn't find any information on the Bleach wiki.

Well, in a manner of speaking, Ichigo is in leagues above Superman. He transcends Shinigami (spiritual beings) at that point in time. What I mean is this: FTG as Ichigo called it is the final form, because Zangetsu said its a form where he himself becomes Getsuga (the attack).

Gallery

The manner of superiority Aizen is feeling from Ichigo comes from the fact that even after he laid eyes on FTG, he still did not feel any reitsu from Ichigo. Ichigo just had such incredible reitsu, it was not visible to Aizen at that point. Hogyoku eventually adapts to this new found power, and fuses Aizen with his Zampakutou Kyoya Suigetsu. This fusion is evident in the 1000 year war arc where Aizen distorts Yhwatchs time by just that much from simply looking at him.

And, its cool. Yes, I did think you were debating against Ichigo there... lol

So many questions!!!! So little genuine answers!!! None of the ones you're naming are sufficiently powerful to be considered IMO, and he didn't physically beat them all himself - which shows how strong they weren't basically. They had ascended to some other level of power - agreed, but again we can't compare this to Yamamoto. Yamamoto was the single most powerful shinigami in a thousand years at least. His bankai was considered to be the most powerful ever IIRC. The only way he was defeated/killed was through highly specified weapons created specifically for him. Wonderweiss in the case of Aizen, and Juha Bach stealing his bankai and using it against him. Like basically the only way to defeat/kill him was with his own power. Also don't forget Aizen could get hurt - he would just regenerate. So I don't think he could "tank" Yamamoto, but it wouldn't necessarily kill him - which neither did Ichigo. I guess another thing to consider is that all that stuff with Aizen didn't prompt any interference from the 0 division. So I guess they figured they weren't needed, BUT they did intercede (kind of) with the quincy attacks so... that's possibly suggestive of how powerful Aizen and Ichigo were at that point too don't you think?

I can't wait to see how powerful they're going to make Ichigo be now though... full shinigami powers AND quincy powers.... his own proper zanpaktou... dual wielding I might add.... damn. They're just teasing us with all these issues of everyone else - GET TO THE GOOD STUFF!!!!

@lowlaville: Nah, I like ichigo. :P I guess my resolve was worn down by the last week of arguing with the guy on the first page. :P But is Ichigo better at durability/strength/power output than superman?

@wishiwassuperman: You misunderstood. :P I wasn't even trying to assume those guys were near yamamoto. I was just trying to find a starting point from which to multiply aizen's upgrades.

@jeepeh: oh got ya... I'm gonna have to go trawling back through my mangas now... Damn it.

Durability: Yes, like I said, as long as his reitsu is active.

Strength and Power: Doesn't count when Superman has been seen reacting to Flash. And he is still points above Ichigo.

Aizen currently has power levels FGT Ichigo might have had. Though, Im only assuming.

@wishiwassuperman: Sorry. :P

@lowlaville: What does reacting to flash have to do with strength?

Because strength is a non factor in the process of determining superiority. Especially when it does not exceed what Superman is able to take, or what he is able to deal in damage. In Bleach terms, that means Superman can react to Shunpo and outpace Ichigo. However Ichigos unique durability means, added to the fact that Ichigo has an automatic reaction speed, he can survive an onslought against Superman undoubtedly.

@lowlaville: I made a mistake, by strength I meant striking power. I can't believe I made that mistake. (facepalm) T_T

Up front striking power naturally exceeds on Ichigo, if you take it that Ichigo can destroy mountains by casually swining his sword. It has a longer range than Supermans and the radius of the attack increases by a lot for Ichigo. So if striking strength is what you are looking at, Ichigo has the advantage. He also has the overall power advantage. Though speed wise, Superman is still superior thus a victory, even if earned wont be an easy one. Somewhere around mid difficulty for Ichigo.

@lowlaville: If we want to make this a VS thread I would pull out the fact that Ichigo is a spirit so Superman can't hit or see him directly. :P And Ichigo's weapons are made to attack souls, so wouldn't it bypass his durability and just cut his soul in half? :P

@cjdavis103: He evolved 2 or 3 times after that though. That is when he started saying he was a transcendent I think. I don't think Yamamoto's bankai does anything to gravity, it's just the same temperature as the sun. Unless you were referring to Black Coffin, But I would like to say Planetary level, but that's why I called you guys here. You've actually watched Bleach and I haven't yet.

@jeepeh:

I read bleach not watch but okay

Planetary is a theoretical highball for the stack and durability as fragger was an big island buster in size now that blast could have been suppressed in size but I doubt that. More likely the BC was planetary gravaty not planet level destruction

In essense, yes, the attacks are not physical. xD

@cjdavis103: Same difference. :P

But remember the blast itself didn't hurt him, the heat did. The blunt force/explosion didn't do much to Ichigo.

@lowlaville: But back to striking feats, Does Ichigo go above the "Superman's hits were felt in the core of the earth" thing?

Dont think so. Mainly because all of the fights with Ichigo happened either on Soul Society, in Hueco Mundo, some dimension or in the air on Earth. We cant say for sure.

@lowlaville: So Superman does hits harder then Ichigo?

With a punch, yes. Does Supes have better striking feats than Ichigo? No.

@lowlaville: I meant with Ichigo's sword, I don't think Ichigo has any punching feats.

Considering Ichigos Getsuga Tenshou downright destroys whatever he hits added by the range of his attacks, Id say Ichigo is a multi mountain buster with ease, with Supes being a mountain buster. So yes, Ichigo takes it.

@lowlaville:

Ichigo hasn't mastered his quincy powers yet has he? I can't wait to see Ichigo swinging zangetsu in one hand and a Quincy bow in the other. Are all quincy bows blue? I can't picture Ichigo in all black with a bright blue bow, I can't imagine that looking right.

Ichigo now has Zangetsu and Hichigo, his actual Zangetsu powers. I don't whether or not he still has the crazy beast Vasto Lorde inside him, so theres that factor to consider I suppose.

@lowlaville: That to, so Ichigo is now Shinigami, Hollow, Vizard, Fullbringer, and quincy. Yeesh. But if he masters his quincy powers he will be able to use all of the quincy weapons like Uryu right?